THE ESTIMATES.—FIRST ITEM.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1240, 23 September 1911, Page 6

THE ESTIMATES.—FIRST ITEM.

THE SECOND CHAMBER. NOMINATION SYSTEM CHALLENGED. The House then went into Committee of Supplv for the further considpratioi. of tho Estimates. When progress was reported last Tuesday night the first vote among the annual appropriations—"Lepislativo Council, jC1350"-was before the Committer, and Mr Massoy had moved an amendment to reduco tho item by AT) as an indication of opinion that tho Legislative* Council should bo constituted by popular election. On the discussion' being resumed yesterday afternoon, Mr. W. F. MASSEY, Leader of tho Opposition, said that be bad moved the

amendment in the proper way and at tin proper time, in order to give tho Hous« an opportunity of expressing its opinion as to how the Upper House should bo constituted. He pointed out that tlio amendment did not slate what the form of tho election should bo, but ho personally was strongly in favour of proportional representation as Die be?t nys. torn of electing members of an Umior Chamber. He regret led that a milliter of members who had been ready, when tho question was last raised, to vote upon it ami not, he look it, to vote all one way, wero now absent. The feeling in favour of proportional representation was growing, and he would like to see New /Scalane! load the way in this reform. "The Time Must Come," Tho Hon. G. FOWLDS said it was nb> surd that tho House should have spent a whole night upon the Estimates in discussing a question of constitutional relorni. Tlio vote, when taken, would bo of 110 value, as there wero many sections of opinion on this question. Ho believed that tho limo must come when tho oecond Chamber, as now constituted, would pass away. To elect an Upper House on tho samo franchise as this Houso would bo a mistake. A better plan would be to have two-thirds of tho members of tho Upper House olcclcd by the lepresentatives of tho people, in this Chamber, upon a proportional representation basis, lie believed that it was in the interests of tho people that a portion of tho members of the Upper Houso should continue to bo nominated. In tins way tho services of specialists in various matters would be secured. Mr. J. C. THOMSON (Wallace) said tho l.eador the Onpnsitinn bnd r'M'o bis best lo stir up tho party spirit through, put the lcnprtli niul breadth trf this 01111try. If monitors voted with tho lion, gentlonian for tho welfare of the country, black headings appeared in tho newspapers: ' Another defeat of tho Govern--I''l<! l ' clorc Government members should cast out tlio motion by tho biggest majority they could mass. I ', 'JENNINGS (Taumarunui) said ho had not tho elasticity of conscience of the two previous speakers, as ho believed that a member should cost his vote always in the interests of tho counMr. Jennings said ho would vota against tho motion, and defended the system of appointment by nomination. Tho Legislative Council, in his opiiion, was wrongly constituted. Partis of New. Zea-land-were not■ represented at all. There was not one back-blocks representative. Ono part of tho country had a very unfair proportion of representation. A Nbn-Party Occasion. Mr. F. M. B. FISnER (Wellington Central) said tho member for Grey Lynn had • been unreasonable in objecting to matters being brought up in this way. He had himself introduced a Proportional Representation Bill, which had not tho slightest chance of being passed. Tho vote upon the first item was tho one occasion upon which members liod an opportunity of drawing an explicit expression of opinion from the House. A vote upon on occasion like this could not bo described as a party vote. Tho Ministry did not' caro two straws whether it was passed or not.

A member: What did The Dominion say ? Mr. Fisher said it was a tribute to The Dominion to know that most of tho Government members spent most of tho twenty-four hours in saying that they did not road The Dominion. He was happy to think, that tho candid truths staled in Tiie Dominion warned the honourable gentlemen opposite, and made, them very miserable.- At present immigrants and people who had never uttered a soatenoo in public in their lives wore appointed to the Upper House, ; Mr. W. H. HURRIES (Tauranga) agreed with tho ■ member for Grey Lynn that thoro had been waste of time on tho previous Tuesday, but not by the Opposition. ■ The trouble was that some of tho Government members had gono to bod. and had to'bo roused out. He liad understood that tho, hon. gentleman had left the Ministry because it was not sufficiently democratic, but apparently tho new evangel embraced tho crusted conservative institution of a nominated Upper House. This was decidedly undemocratic. He" wanted' a; HO.uso that. repw sented the, people, and not broad acres. He believcil they would liavc better legislation if tho people elcctcd both Houses. At present tho Upper House practically , represented tho Premier. ■ " • Mr, M'Laren's Views. Mr. D. M'LAREN (Wellington East) doclarcd that if this wore not a party debate, a party trick was being attempted. Tho issue advanced in tho.amendment was complicated. Ho was in favour of proportional representation, and opposed to appointment by nomination, but if ho voted against this amendment it would bo said that ho favoured nomination. He was not going to be oaught by any party quibbling. These matters should bo dealt with in n Bill. Sir W. J. STEWARD (Waitaki) stated that himself and,' ho believed, a majority of tho unofficial members of tho Houso favoured tho institution of an Elective Executive. Under tho present system, it was impossible for a good party man to vote against his party on a motion of this kind. Mr. A. S. MALCOLM,(CIutha) said he was astonished to see how many excuses a fine crusted Tory like the member for Wellington East could find for a fino crusted Tory institution like a nominated Upper House. The truth was ho had sought refuse in inaction; Mr. G. W. FORBES (Hurunui) opposed tho amendment. Largo electorates under proportional representation _ would mko it impossible for any save rich candidates to sccui'c election. ' Mr.L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North), said it was impossible for a geod democrat to bo captured by this political trick which was being attempted by the Opposition. ' Tho Prime Minister: Hear, hear! Tho Prime Minister in Reply. Tho PRIME MINISTER' said tho ono satisfactory feature of tho discussion was tho way in wliich the eyes of members had been opened to tho trick attempted by the Opposition. Tho undeniable effect of Mr. Massey's proposal, if carried Out, would bo two things of very great importance to the country. It meant creating a restrictive branch of tho Legislature, whose members would be elected for a longer period than members of tho Lower House. If thoro was to bo the samo franchise for both Houses the logical thing to do would bo to abolish tho Upper House. Mr. James Allen: Have you got anj policy on the question at all? , Mr. Allen: What is your policy? The I'rimo Minister: Allow mo to proceed with my speech. Tho lion, gentleman is very restive. Ho does not like it, and when ho does not like anything ho smiles, "loud." Where had tho proposal to reform the Upper House sprung from? A section of tho people of this country were being used by tho Conservative party in this matter for their own ends. During tho time the Conservatives' wera in power they appointed men for life, and not ono of the men appointed was on the side of 'the people. To carry tlio amendment wonld set the country back twenty-five years, as certain as they xvero alive. If a reform of the Upper House was to bo brought about, it was far bettor' that tho members of this Houso should elect its members. Mr. Massev: You voted against that. Mr. 'Massey's amendment was lost by fifteen votes. The following is the division list Noes 37. 1 Arnold Macdonald Brown ' R. M'Kenzie Bmlilo Mackenzie, T. B'lxlon M'Laren Oifrroll • Millar Craigio Mv>rs. ™'lo>i Ngala Hon. T. Duncan Tarata nil Rangihirca Field Jtoss Forbes fiidey Fowtds Smith i:m Stallworthy llanan Steward 'nr;an Taylor ' "H Thomson, .1. C, .Tennincrs Ward Laurenson Witty Jj.uvry Ayes 22. Alloa Hemes Anderson. Hino Buchanan Malcolm Buick Massoy Davcy Newman J. Duncan Nosworthy Fisher ' Okev Fraser Pearoo Greonslado Rhodes Guthrio Scott , Hardy Thomson, G. U.

To Abolish the Council. Mr. F. M. B. FISHER (Wellington Central) moved that the item be reduced by <£1, as an indication that tho Legislative Council should bo abolished. . . This recoived only thirtcm supporters,namely, Messrs. Allen, ' Anderson, Arnold, Fisher, Forbes, Fowlds, Greenslade, Ilerries, Hino, M'Laron, Malcolm, No'sworthy,. Okev. Eloction by the Lower House. ■ Mr. J. C. THOMSON (Wallace) moved that tho item bo reduced by £3 as an indication that tho Upper Houso should ■bo elected by tho Houso of Representatives. Mr. G. J. ANDERSON- (Mataiira) said, he would not vote for the amendment unless it was made clear 'that, it com-l prised proportional representation. Mr. Jr. P. LUKE (Wellington Suburbs) said hn approved of tho principlo of tho election of tho Upper House by;tho people, but thought a motion affirming it should not have been moved by wav of reduction of a.voto 011 tho Estimates, no objected to iiny form of electoral collego, and therefore opposed the present amendment. . ■ . Sir JOSEPH WARD opposed the amendment, but said ho was quito prepared to submit at tho proper time, and' in tho proper way, a proposal that would bo an improvement on tho present, system, and "it would bo a well-thought-out scheme. ' The passing of a motion on. tho Estimates was quito inadequate as a guide for the Government as to what was required in tho way of legislation. He had never known anything in tho Bhapo of practical reform result from a .mere affirmativo resolution. "Humiliating Exhibition." Mr. MASSEY said if he thought they could not improve flic Upper House, he would vote to abolish it, but he believed at was possiblo to amend it; and amend it vexy satisfactorily. Ho t hoped the amendment moved by Mr. Thomson would be carried. Tlicy had that afternoon had the most humiliating exhibition of political party bias that lie had ever witnessed. They had an amendment moved, and membor after member on the-Government side, including Oho member for Christchurch North, had got up and apologised for having to vote against it, because it had been moved by tho Opposition side of tho House. • Mr. Isitt: Because it was done for party purposes. ■ Mj. Massey emphatically denied that it had been done for' party i purposes. Ho took up .this, position, that ho put principle before! party every timo. To show that such was tho case ho was going to vote for this amendment, and he hoped every member who eat around him would voto for it too. Ho had been around tho country more than anyone in the House during the last, six ■ months, and ho could speak with confidence that the majority of tho people had lost' confidence in tho Upper House as at present constituted. • They wished to make it representative of tho whole of the elec-; tors, under a system of proportional .representation. It was suggested that in. his advocacy of this matter ho was preparing tho way for himself, but that was-not so. Thero was one thing ho would not do—if ho could not go into Parliament by tho front door ho would not go in through the back door. . Mr J. 0. THOMSON insisted that tho services of men who liad served long in tho Lower House should not bo passed over in favour of others, as was the caso at present. .. Mr. D. BUICK (Palmerston North) opposed tho Amendment oil tho ground that tho Upper Houso should ba elected by the people, not by tho Lower House. , An allusion by Mr. Buick to "slipshod legislation" drew from tho Prime Minister 011 interjection, "What slipshod legislation?" :■ Mr. Buick: Your electoral law. of last year, for instance, which, you aro ashamed, of now. , " , The Prime Minister: I'm not ashamed of it. . : ... Mr.; Buick: 'Then yoii. ought.,to be. It has cost a lot of money and . done' no pood.''!-. Mr. Buick .also remarked • that there was no Representative of the West Coast.'of tho North Island .in tho Council. There was Mr. J; G." Wilson, who was for thirteen •. years a. member of tho Houso tmd.Ajras nevej ; 7 «g«gtiojj(,"jj ,Mr." Massey:. He's tno "wrong: colour. Mr, Buick added that Mr. \yilson had done his duty as a public, man,' and this liad . not ,J)een . recognised whon. appointments were made ta.tfy) Upper .House.' Reform Promised. ' Sir JOSEPH WARD said that ho was in view of tho desire" expressed Dy: a majority of the members, to submit legislation that would amend the constitution .of .tho Legislative Council. Ho was not .prepared to commit himself to a system of election .■ of members of tho Uppep House upon tho same franchisors that upon whith tho: Lower House was formed, and he'. was certainly opposed to any. restricted franchise. • Nor would he commit himself on behalf of the Government to a proposal that' would mean "a regular botch" of the constitution. If a chango was made, it should bo based on sound lines. Sir Joseph Ward added that any method by which the roacf of legislation would be mado easy would produce the ■ most injurious results. It would be necessary to retain to some extent, the principle of nomination, because nnleas thev had in tho Upper House men who would bo ablo- to analyse and dissect legislation, they would not have a satisfactory. check on the work of tho House. ,W. ERASER (Wakatipu) said an Dccasion like tho: present was a proper Jno.for.the affirmation of a 1 principle, but tho' amendment of Mr. Thomson was a matter of detail. Ho would vote against it. < " Mr. J. A. HANAN (Invercargill) remarked that, owing to blundors and mistakes made by the Lower House in recent years, it was fortunate that-.there was an Upper House. Tho Council in every, way' compared favourably with tho House of Representatives. But tho Upper Houso should ho a Revisory Chamber. To make it elective would bring it into conflict v/ith tho lower House. Ho would not support tho proposal of Iho member for Wallace. Mr. A. S. MALCOLM (Clutlia) declared that the methods pursued by the Government gavo the Upper House no opportunity to exercise cue functions of a Revisory Chamber. Tho practico was to bring down important Bills at tho fagend of tho session with tho result that tho Council was overwhelmed with work. If tho Primo Minister sincerely desired roform of tho Upper llouso ho should adopt n proposal that 110 (Mr. Malcolm) bad previously advanced and pass legislation to provido that all Bills, save those deemed nccessaiy by tho SpeakoT, must bo introduced iu tho first fortnight of the tefsion. Mr. H. G. ELL (Cliristchurch South) said that tho Leader of the Opposition had taken .action in this matter because the Houso was passing too much radical legislation to please him. Mr. Massey: "You won't pass enough for me." Mr.. F. M. B. FISnER (Wellington Central) suggested that tho Houso might ba given an opportunity later of voting 011 a proposal to establish a combined elective and nominative Council on the South African system. The discussion of the previous Tuesday and of that uvening should convince the Prime minister ihnt some reform ol the Council was desiredby members. Did tho Prime Minister knew that' the Council had passed Bills which it had not officially seen? The Primo Minister: I bcliovo that is centra 17 to fact. A Lost Bill. Mr. FISHER added that ono Bill had actually been lost, owing 'to pressure of work, after being forwarded to the Council. This was the Secret Commissions' Hill It was afterwards re-enaotcd by the Houso and was now on tho Staiule Hook. Tho PRIME MINISTER said it might have been laid aside. The Council had a right to adopt this course. Mr. FrSHHII stated that -the Bill bad been laid aside inadvertently, much as ono sometimes lost an umbrella. Mr. I'.. NEWMAN (Mawiwatu) said lie would contemplate with absolute dismay an Upper House consisting almost entirely of lawyers. This would naturally come to pass if it were converted into a mere revisory body. Mr. W. T. JENNINGS (Taumariinui) thought it unwise that the Lower Houso should cleet mpmlior.s of tho Council. If tliis system wero adopted, supposing his friend Mr. Isitt to command a majority, the Upper House would be tilled with Prohibitionists. If Mr. M'Laren had a majority the Council would bo tilled with Labour men, and so on. In this way many of tho best minds of tho Dominion would bo excluded. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Cliristchurch North) said 110 did not object, to tlio member for Wellington South telling the Houso wlmt ho thought, and t'hat ho thought that what they thought .(lid not matter. But

110 objected to the member for Wellington Central telling the llouso what he (Mr. Isitt) thought. 110 objected to Mr. Fisher toliing tho llouso that ho thought tho Opposition was vile. As 11 fact he was convinced that the ono person in tho Houso who represented tho concentration of wisdom and tho essence of all modesty was tho member for Clutlia. Mr. Isitt protested strongly against Mr. Malcolm's statement that the Primo Minister kept back Bills until the llouso was weary. 110 did not believe that this was true. House in a Muddle. Tho Hon. A. T. NGATA remarked that tho House had got into a muddle over this question of tho Upper House. If they wore to 'have ft night out on this debate he was sorry that the Leader of tho Opposition had started at 5 p.m. instead of waiting until 10. Mr. Kgata stressed the danger of creating an elective Upper House. If its members wero elected by larger constituencies it might claim to bo superior to tho Lower House. The elective principlo could be carried too far. It was because of debates like the present that thero was usually a press of work at tho end of the session. For tho expenditure of time on these occasions tho Wellington members wero largely responsible. It was the favourite pastimo of the gentlemen who represented Wellington to talco up the timo of tho House between 7.30 p.m. and 9.30 p.m., because at this timo some of their constituents were usually in the galleries. Very few constituentl: of other members came, because they lived too far away. Mr. Fisher: That is why you come back. On a division, Mr. Thomson's amendment was defeated by 39 votes to 6. The Hina Committee's Resolution. Mr. MASSEY recalled the fact that the Hino G'ommitteo had unanimously passed a resolution, 011 the motion of the Prime Minister, which was afterwards endorsed by the House, to the effect that, legislation should bo placed on the Statute Book making it impossible for any member of Parliament to receive a commission from anyone outsido Parliament. Nothing had been done in tho matter so far, and ho would like to know if the lion, gentleman intended to do anything in the .matter before the end of the session. Tho PRIME MINISTER stated that tho matter was now in the hands of tho law officers of tho Crown. He believed that it could bo dealt with by a Standing Order and without legislation. It was not the easiest thing in tho. world to legislate upon this matter, a3 any step talcen might be regarded as a. reflection upon members. Mr. MASSEY said ho was quite prepared to accept a Standing Order. Tho hon. gentleman had himself suggested legislation. Personally he_ looked to the futuTo when possibly neither the hon. gentleman nor himself would be there. The matter should be dealt with cither by iegislation or by Standing Order, before the end of tho session. The PRIME MINISTER remarked that care must bo taken not to penaliso members or keep men out of Par]iament. Members and firms with which tlvev wero collected frequently had to do business with Departments in the matter of applying for loans «uid so fort.li. It tho House was going to legislate 1 so that members of Parhamoat would bo prevented from being connected, directly or indirectly, with a firm doing business with a Department of State, many persons would bo prevented from becoming members who were doing a perfectly legitimate business. He agreed that there should bo no such thing as members of Parliament dowig business with the Government. Mr. Massey: Ot tolling land to the Government? The Prime Minister ooncurred. . Mr. MASSEY remarked that the difficulty was to make a standing order apply to both Houses. . Tho Prima Minister opined that this could be done. The Dual System. Mr. F. M. B. FISHER (Wellington Central) said that during the afternoon the Primo Minister had elaborated the idea of an elective and nominative Council, and advanced tha dual system as .the one solution of the questioa.- Ho moved that tho item should bo reduced. by; £1 as an indication thnt-the House approved of the dual system. Mr. J. T. HOGAN (Wanganui) protested against tho waste of time by ' political claptrap," -Inch could lead to nowhere. Alr/31Afc>:3Y "said "that apparently tho members on tho other side of the llouso were prepared for a "night out. were wasting time, not tho members of the Opposition. Tho speech by Mr. Hogan was calculated to stir up a debate that would last all night. Mr. Fisher: That is what ho made it *°Mr. Fisher then replied to the charge laid by Mr. Ngata that Wellington members used tho time of tho Houso "for gallery purposes." Mr. Smith and Mr. Stallworthy: Hear, hear! Mr. Fisher: Tho member for sawdust savs hear, hear. Sir Joseph Ward: Withdraw, withdraw! Mr. Fisher: What? Oh, I beg your pardon. What is tho honourablo member's district?—tho member for Ranptikei. Mr. Fisher named several Wellington members who had not spoken during the debate. A voice: You are on your good behaviour to-night! Mr. Fisher said that the members on the other side of the House resented the freedom of thought and freedom of. speech which Wellington gave to its members. Sir Joseph Ward: Absence of intelligence. Mr. Fisher: Tho fact is that wo aro so intelligent that the honourable gentleman, is going to devote a crcat deal of timo to us "next time." How the men who aro tied up and whipped up Mr. Lawry (I'arnell): Don't talk rot. •Mr. Fisher: Tliov resent any display of freedom by the members. Ho added that he knew what his rights were, and he would talk as long and as often as he liked. Sir Joseph: Hear, hear! Don't lose your temper. A Good Omen. Mr. Fisher: I ami not out of temper. I am rather delighted to seo that the pajty which has been in power in Canada for 21 years has been absolutely swept off its foot. I look upon that as a good omen. Mr. Fisher's amendment was defeated by 35 votes to 17. The first item was carried at 10.35 p.m. On tho second item (House of Representatives' Vote, .CC255), Mr. W. H. HERItIES (Tanranga) hoped that the Primo Minister would endeavour to devise some means of retaining Ccanmitteo clerks as permanent officers. •The PRIME MINISTER stated that three Committee clerks had boon provided for during the preceding recc=s. It was difficult to do more. Fourteen or fifteen men could not well be employed during tho recess. Taxation Hardships. Speaking upon tho Land and Income Tax Vote, .Mr. MASSEY said that there were a number of widows and elderly peoplo and others of small means who had all their capital invested in companies which paid incomo tax in the ordinary way upon their profits. Tho dividends paid upon these person's investments wero reduced in proportion to the amount of tax paid by the companies, so that although their incomes were within tho limit of exemption, they actually paid taxation. In Great Britain people in such circumstances wero enabled to obtain from Somerset House a refund of the amount by which their dividends had been reduced bv the original taxation. Mr. Massey said tho matter was probably a small ono in principle, but it meant much to tlioso people who were aflected. Sir JOSEPH WARD said ho would investigate the matter with a view to ascertaining whether a similar system could be adopted in New Zealand. The following clnsfrs were approved without amendment: Class 1 (Legislative Department), .£27,537; Ctass 2 (Department of Finance), J2l< r >/i&i J (l'ost and Telegraph Department) ,£!)(jn,o7o. I'r.igiws was reported at 1.50 p.m., aJid the House rose. • ■