THE MOKAU INQUIRY.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1232, 14 September 1911, Page 2

THE MOKAU INQUIRY.

ANOTHER NATIVE WITNESS. MR. DALZIELL'S EVIDENCE. CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE GOVERNMENT. The Native Affairs Coinmiltco 'continued Hie Mokau inquiry yesterday , . Members present were Mr. W. T. Jennings (chairman), Sir Jas. Carroll, the Hon. A. T. Ngata, Dr. To Kangihiroa, and Messrs. W. H. Ilcrrics, B. Dive, H. J. Greenstade, W. D. S. Macdonald, T. I'arata, and F. JI under. Messrs. W. ]?. Massey, J. Jones, and F. G. Dalziell were also present. The first witness called was Pairoroku Rikihana, a resident of Otaki. Examined through an interpreter ho stated that his wife had an interest in the Mokau-Moha-katino Block. On visiting Mokau in last June he found old men and women gathered together. They were lamenting that their land had passed away by sale and their desire, was to regain possession of it. When the Board sat at Mokau it laid down certain proposals in regard to the acceptance by the owners of an offor for their land. Told that tho board had uot met at Mokau, witness said that a man who hud come thexo might have come only to pay over the money, but witness was under the impression that he represented the board. The old people, including To Oro (a previous witness), were firm in determining to hold on to their land. Afterwards word was received by the owners that if they would not agree to sell and to tako tho money which had been sent to the Mokau Tost Office, the Government, or whoever it was that was acquiring the land, would tako it for nothing and the Natives would get neither land nor money. Then some of the owners drew their share of the money, but others refused. The chairman: AVho was it that said that if the Natives did not sell tho Government would tako tho land for nothing? —It was a woman from Taranaki who came m> there. •Subsequently tho old people decided to send a telegram to tho chairman of this committee, to Mr. Jennings. Mr. Jennings: I received that telegram. Witness continued that the effect of tho telegram was the Natives desired an opportunity of representing to the committed that they wished to retain their land. Mr. Massey said the witness had informed him that he was one of the four representatives appointed at a meeting at Atoluiu to represent the Native owners at To Kuiti. "Sort of Startled." Witness said ho had boon appointed by the owners to oppose the sale of the land. The peopiu were divided at that time, but tho majority of certain of tho people were in favour of retention. At 'L'e Kuiti they persisted in opposing the sale, When the board sat a second time at To Kuiti, Mr. Hardy made certain proposals to witness and others. Ho said: "Hell tho land, and 2500 shares would be given to tho Natives, in addition to iiie purchase, money offered for the land." Jt was further said that all thy purchase money would l>o paid in full; no deductions would be made, and the company would bear all costs and expenses. They went on to say that those who remained obdurate and refused to sell would be called upon to bear very serious and heavy expenses and troubles. .This "sort of startled" witness, and ho thought, being ignorant of these kind of matters, that as tho price had beAi increased, and no deductions were, to bo made, this was a more satisfactory proposal, and they had better accept it. Tho chairman: Did ho accept on behalf of his wifo?--"Yes." And his wife received her share of tho money?—" Yet." The amount, witness, added, wag. 4:373 12s. She had bren receiving as leiifc tho sum of £> 10.-. 3d. per annum. Witness said ho wanted to impress upon the Committeo that the old people who declined to sell, and up to the present Jiad refused to sell, still declined to sell. To Sir James Carroll: The committee appointed in tho iirst place was set up to mako arrangements to fight the leases. The sura of MQ was raised at Mokau and XBOO was to be paid to Mr. Bell to undertake this work. They did not collect this .£BOO. The matter was handed over to Hardy. The Natives siped a document setting aside some land as security for this money. To Mr. Herrics: There had been a question of pale before the committee was setup byMr. Bell. Witness could not say whether the proposal then was to sell to tho Government. When his wife received the purchase money nothing was deducted for expenses. He knew of an agreement under which was to Ik deducted for expenses. His wife would not agreo to the proposal. Wituess thought the land was worth about 355. an acre if there were no lease. He thought tho price taken was not a good one. To Mr. Massey: At tho first meeting at Mokau, a majority of t.he Natives opposed tho sale. All of them opposed the sale. 51 r. Massey: In whose interests did the witness consider that Tint) Macdonald and Mr. Hardy were acting? Witness: They were all together with us in opposing (ho rale. Mr. Massey: But they advised the Natives to sell? Witness said tho position was that they all went to To Kuifi with the professed intention of opposing'.the sale. On their arrival there matters were explained to them by Tuiti Macdonald and Hardy. They then agreed to sell. To the chairman:. None of those who signed the wire to tho chairman had ac--cepted purchase money. To Sir James Carroll: There was a selling party and a non-selling party at Mokau, and bad feeling existed between (he two partiesTo Mr. Ngala: Ho attended a meeting on April i.', when the question of costs was discussed. He put in an account for I'GO. He had understood that the company was to pay all expenses. A resolution was passed that each parly should pay its own expenses. His claim was reduced from ,£GS to £60. It was. further reduced by .£l6 55., which had been paid him by Mr. Hardy. Ho had not been paid tho balance of ,£l3 odd. Evidence of Mr. F. G. Dalziell. The next witness was Frederick George Dalziell, solicitor, Wellington. On being sworn he elected to mako a statement covering tho whole matter from tho time' his firm become associated with the Mokau lands up to the time of their sale by the Natives. Ho was iirst consulted by Mr. Lewis on August IS, 1008. Mr. Herries: Mr. Dalziell was present while all the witnesses were being examined. None of tho other witnesses were present. The chairman: Ho was present by permission of the committee. Mr. Hcrries: He lias had an advantage that no other witness has had. Wo will have the power of cross-examination, I suppose? Tho chairman: Oh yes, and in answer to you, other witnesses have been present. Mr. Hcrries said he assumed that witness would not confine himself to points which in his (witness's) opinion had to be met. Mr. Dalziell confirmed this and stated that it. was important to keep in view what was the position on August 3, 1908, when Mr. Lewis first consulted witness. Lewis was then the registered owner of Mr. Jones's leases, subject to a mortgage to Flowers's trustees, for .CllOO. This was the total amount of the purchase monev he had agreed lo pay to the trustees for tho leases. He had at this time entered into an agreement with Mr. Mason Chambers, Mr. U. D. D. M'Lean, and Sir Viancis Price, all of Hawkc's Bay, runholders, to sell to them his interest in the leases for the sum 0f',£25,01)1) and an eighth interest in the leases. Under that agreement tho purchasers had paid him .£7OO in cash and .£I3OO had been deposited with Messrs. Moorhouse and lladfield, solicitors, Wellington. The latter had given a/i undertaking to Messrs. Travers, Campbell, and Peacock, soliciiors, in New Zealand for I'lowers's trustees, to the effect that when Lewis was placed on the register as the owner of these lands, they would pay that monev over to Travers, Campbell. Mr. P. S". M'lx-an, solicitor for the Hawke's Hay purchasers, prior to this date, had searched the title of the lands and had conio to tho conclusion

that the title, .whether good or not, was uncertain and net , such as he could adviso his clients lo accept, lie staled, on their behalf, that they would have to withdraw from I he agreement and demanded a refund of tho £700 received by Lewis and of the JUMO held by Messrs. Moorhouse and Itadfield. It wi:s also important that, at this date, the .£II,OOO under Mr. Lewis's mortgage had become due. That was the situation in winch Mr. Lewis found himself when he came to consult witness. He wanted advice as to (he best nwans by which he could escape from his difficulties. Witness came to the conclusion that although tho title might bo good, it was not such a Htlo as could Iμ forced upon an unwilling purchaser. lie alto concluded that the undertaking given by Messrs. MoDrhouse and Hadfield to Messrs. Travers and Campbell would be a very difficult one for them to get out of, on account of Travers and Campbell having carried out tho condition on which Moorlioiipo and Hadfield had promised to hand over the money—they h-d registered the transfers. He also Cβ.eluded that if Lewis lost this sale and suffered any damage through not being able to complete the sale to the Hnwke's Bay purchasers, that he might have a claim against cither the trustees or their solicitors, but this timo also Lswis was not in a position to finance the purchase of the leases from tho trustees unless ho could sot such a title as he could borrow upon. This, in view of the' doubt thrown upon the title, he was not in a position to finance the purchase. He could not do it independently of tho value of tho leasehold. Early Negotiations. The first step witness took in order to straighten out all these difficulties was to appi-oach Mr. M'Ltan, solicitor for tho Hawke's Bay people, and Mr. Campbell,' solicitor for the trustees. Ho suggested to both that it was very undesirable that the threatened triangular litigation should proceed as it would probably bo prolonged and expensive, aiid that it would be far better for all parlies concerned to combine with a view to having tho leases perfected or of getting the lessees and Maoris. to combine to sell their whole property. Both gentlemen were very loth to agree to this. The altitude taken up by Mr. M'l/oan was shown by the following letter from him to witness, under date September 22, 190S :— "E-e Mokuu.—l have soen Mr. Chambers and the others as to the proposal that they should enter into an agreement with Mr. Lewis and Mr. Camp- . bell, with a view (o special legislation, and they hav6 asked me to say that, while tliey appreciate your eiforts towards a profitable settlement, they would prefer to retire from tho adventure—with their own money and interest, as provided by the agreement with Mr. Lewis—leaving the others to take the full benefit of any such legislation. "I have to thank you for your good intentions and for your considerate .- discussion of the position." Mr. Campbell nlso took up the attitude that he was forced by his people in London into the position of pressing the lessee. Witness decided to go on, and wroto to the Native Minister on September 25, 1908, suggesting that, in order to overcome existing difficulties, the property should bo dealt with under the Native Lands Settlement Act of 1907. In this letter (put in as evidence), Mr. Dalziell staled that there would probably bo no difficulty in arranging for tho reservation of so much of tho land as might bo necessary for the occupation of the Natives. Complications might arise if any of the balance had to be leased. Mr. Dalziell suggested that the simplest course, would be to amend the provisions of Section 11 of the Native Land Settlement Act, 1907, so that it would be left to tho Goyernor-in-Council, on the recommendation of the Native Land Commission, to permit any part of the land to bo sold. Mr. Dalziell added that it was also possible that tho provisions of Section 22 of the Native Land Settlement Act, 1907, providing tor residence upon lands disposed of, might be found detrimental to the successful realisation of the property, and his clients therefore desired that if possible the Governor-in-Council -should be given authority to dispense with this -oonditioni.if it was.-deemeoVdesirablo to do so.' ' ,; ':." -•'''■ Tho letter continues:— "All that is necessary for tho purpose of giving effect to this • proposal is tho insertion of : a clause in the Native Land Bill which may be passed by the House during this session, modifying the provisions of Sections 11 ! and 22 above referred to. This clause might take the following form: 'Whereas it is desirable that the setitlement of the Mokau-Mohakatino Block No. 1, subdivisions IF, IG, IH, and IJ, should be facilitated, now it is hereby declared that it shall be lawful for tho commission referred to in Section 2 of tho Native Lands Settlement Act, 1907, to make inquiry affecting tho said lands and report thereon, and thereupon the said lands or any part thereof may wiCi consent of the lessees thereof be brought under the provisions of the said Act 1 in mnnner provided by Section 1 thereof provided that the provisions of Sections 11 and 21 of the said Act may bo modified to such extent as the Governor-in-Conncil may deem fit. It is also hereby declared that any such Order-in-Council may prnvido that the board shall not dispose of tho said lauds in manner provided by (lie said Act, but may with consent of the lessees of such lands grant leases thereof in substitution for the existing leases upon such terms approved by tho Govcrnor-in-Council as may be agreed uiion. between the board and tlio lessees. " Mr. Treadwell Intervenes. At this stage in tho proceedings, witness continued, ilr. Treauwell intervened, acting on behalf ot Mr. .loshua Jones, and (old witness quite frankly that he considered it to be in Mr. Jones's interests that ho should oppose any legislation at all unless sonic arrangement beneficial to Mr. Jones were agreed to by Lewis. After consultation with Lewis, witness entered into protracted negotiations with Mr. Treadwoll. His original proposal to Mr. Treadwell was that Jones should be allowed the coal, that tho land should bo sold —rather, that, in tho first place, the interest of the Natives should, if possible, bo purchased; it was thought at tho time that it could not be acquired for less than .£ls,ooo—that the freehold should then be disposed of, and that Lewis should receive as his share, first the mortgage money, and then a sum of .£II,OOO, the balance going to .Mr. Jones; .CII.OOO was the sum that Lewis would have got from his Napier purchasers if the transaction had goie on. No agreement was come to. After a counter proposal by Mr. Treadwell had been, in its turn, rejected, n deadlock arose. . Finally, witness and Mr. Treadwcll agreed b wait on Dr. Findlay and n>k his ad--vice.. They suggested a Royal Commission in go into tho wholo matter. When they waited upon Dr. I'indlay to ask his assistance or advice in the matter he told them quite frankly that in view of the unsatisfactory conclusion of the Meikle Commission Cabinet was sick of commissions. His advice to them was that ho thought Cabinet would not appoint a Royal Commission and that they had better come to some arrangement without that assistance. Up to December, 1908, witness was being continually pressed by the two parties interested to settle their claims. This was tho position in December, 190 S. Tito Commission. Then camo the Commission which inquired into this matter. It had no jurisdiction to inquire into the titles to these ieases. Mr. Xgal'a ceased to be a member in 1908 and was replaced by Mr. Jackson Palmer. Witness suggested thnt the Commission should not have inquired into these titles a-s it was impossible for the question to 1)0 fairly tried in the absence ■jf evidence, which the parties ■ interested wero not given an opportunity of producing. The Commission found that in respect n! Block 1 , , a considerable number of the owners had not signed the leiso. Tho Commission also said that tho lease was illegal anil that assuming it to bo legal, it was liable to forfeiture because tlio covenant's it contained had not been properly performed. Willi regard to the other three blocks, G. IT., and .T., the Commission found that all these lenws were void, and should never have boon registered. As lo these findings, witness would like lo fay that it had now btvn proreil conclusively that every owner of Week F had signed the lease. Messrs. Bell and Skerrett agreed in stating that tho only drfcot in these lenses was the question of bmich of covenant with regard to IF. The Chief Justice had slated that in his opinion the Court would relieve onco from

forfeiture in rrspret of those leases. Prior to the report of the Commission being published, negotiations had taken place between und (lie Natives. Sumo of the laiter wrote witness saying they were premired lo sell for .t'15,000. I'ho letter was signed by Andrew Ekctone. Apparently after this sotneone showed Iho Natives the report of the Commission, and they came to the- conclusion that they would not .■■ell for .-£15,000. Mr. Dalziell described in _ detail furtiier negotiations, a nil put in a number of letters, including! one to himself from Mr. Treadwell, in which (he letler suggested that he (-Mr. JJnlzioll) would probably hi , swing J)r. Findlay. This, biiid wiliicss, was the only wiiy in which Dr. I'indlay interested himself in this matter. It would bo seen thnt he did so at the roc]uc«t of Mr. Treadwell, . The Government's Attiludo, Early in January, 1911, witness took up the. matter wilji liio Government ngain. At this timo the Prime Minister had taken charge of the question. Witness wrote him on January L'o, 1910, suggesting Hint vyobably Iho best way out of tho difficulty would be for tho Crown to eettlo with the lessee upon the basis of the contract made in May, 1908, when Mason Chambers, Douglas Al'Lean, and Sir Francis Price agreed to pay the lessee .£25,000 and ai eighth interest for his interests. Ho was finally informed that Iho valuations would not justify tho Government in. paying: the prico Lciris asked for his interest. Ho then suggested to the Primo Minister that ho should buy tho interests of the Natives, which witness understood could have. been, then obtained for .£22,500, and acquire the interests of the lessee compulsmlr. Later on lie was informed, that the Government would not take cotupulsorily, for (wo reasons. The first, reason was that Hie Natives would only sell for .£'22,590. This was too much by about .£7500 if tho leases were valid. Tlio Government was thus forced to undertake this expensive and prolonged litigation tx> lest tho validity ol tho leases or clee to pay the Natives ,€7500 too much. If they paid the Natives and did not contest the leases I hoy would linve to pay this sum of X 7500 twico over. They would have lo lake tlio leases on the basis of their being good, when paying the Natives on tho basis of tho titles being doubtful. The wond reason was that tho Government did not seo its way. to take a coal mine compulsorily. It was impossible for anyone to make a reasonable estimate of tlio amount of compensation which would be oworded to the lessees for their interest in the coal. .Tlio Government had no power to take the surfaco with nit the coal. Immediately after this Mr. Skorrett wrote to the Native Minister protesting against the way in which this question was being allowed to remain unsettled, and urged .thnt tlio Government should consent to the issue of an Order-in-Council in order that tho Natives' interests in the land might bo purchased by the lessee. Mr. Skerrolt and witness continued to urge upon different members of tho Government that this course should be adopted, and finally on December. 0. l!) 10, he was informed by Mr. Skerrett that tho Government had consented to issue the Order-in-Council. Mr. Skerrett and witness ■ than went into tho question of taking the necossar.v steps to acquire the interests of the Natives in accordance with tho provisions of tho Maori Land Act, 1009. At this stago the Committee .adjourned until 10.30 a.m. to-day.