THE MOKAU INQUIRY.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1227, 8 September 1911, Page 2

THE MOKAU INQUIRY.

THE MAORI POINT OF VIEW. INTERESTING STATEMENTS. EVIDENCE OF AIR. HERRMAN LEWIS. The Native Affairs Committee continued (ho Mokau inquiry yesterday. Present: Mr. W. T. Joumiigs (chairman), Sir James Carroll, the Hon. A. T. Ngata, Dr. To f?aiigihiroa, and Messrs. F. Mander, W. H. Herries, T. Parata, B. Dive. 11. J. n. Grccnsladc, and T. E. Y. Seddou. Messrs. W. 1-'. Massey, J. Jcnes, and F. C!. Dalziell were present. Frank Rattenbury, storekeeper, Tongapiirutu, was called as a witness. Examined by Mr. Massey, he stated that his ■wife and a number of her relatives were interested in tho Mokau property. He attended all the meetings of assembled owners. The meetings were mainly to opposo th-9 sale. Nearly all tho Mokau people opposed the safe. It was understood that Mr. Hardy was to act for the Natives, and he was instructed to oppose (ho sale. After the sale the Natives were dissatisfied. They thought the land was worth moro than they had got, but they had nob desired to sell at all. Four of the Native owners, including his wife, had not yet taken the purchase money. The Natives bad not been willing that ton per cent, of the pvrchaso money should be deducted to pay expenses. He understood that this was to pay the expenses of Hardy and Pepene. His wife and tho other Natives did not approve the arrangement.

What the Natives Desired. To Sir James Carroll:.His wife had dissented from tho sale because her granduncie, a Maori named To Oro Waitihi, had not signed tho lca;c. The first meeting of Native; was called vith the idea of raising money to contest the leases. He was aware that efforts wcro afterwards made by Mr. Hardy and others to raise the money to carry on the action. Mr. Hardy had notified the Natives of his failure. The Native? realised that since the money could not bo raised they could not go on with the action. While (hey were dealing with the question of taking action tho whole of the Mokau Natives were opposed lo (he sale. After the failure to raise the money a number of the Natives removed to Te Kuiti and Mohoenui. Only a few old people and children were left at Mokau. He knew the Mokau properly well. Some of it was good land and some of it rough. Ten or twelvo thousand acres might.be worth 10s. an acre.' Less these twelvo thousand acres the block was first-class' laud. Without the leases it would bo worth 2.">s. an acre. Encumbered with the leases it would bo worth 10s.

To Mr. Ngata: The Natives actually at Mokau did not represent a majority of the owners. His wife had a small interest in . the block, lie remembered papers being signed directing Mr. Jlnrdy to oppose the sale. To another question witness replied that the iuslruetions wore to fight the leases, not the sale. To Mr. Massey: Ho had seen in the papers that the company had paid £85,000 for 10,000 acres of the'Mokau land. He thought' this was a big price. Most of the Nativo owners had other lands. His wife's uncle and other Natives contended that as they had not signed any lease and had opposed the salo they were entitled to retain their lauds.

Not Willing to Sell, The next witness called was on elderly Maori named Te Oro Waitihi, a resident of Tongapurutu. He was examined through an interpreter. Witness first referred to a visit by Pepeno to look into tho trouble over tho block. When tho Natives came to Wellington the only thing reached by them was—"sale." He received a wire sent froni-Wellnigton-to the effect that the best thing lo do would be to sell. (j He replied: "I am not willing to sell." Then he opposed the sale. Ho was represented by Tuiti Macdonald. The owners, of the land, on being questioned, said it was much better to ho'ld their land than.to sell it. Tuiti said: "Yes, it certainly would bo much better that you should hold on lo your land." Tujti's companions were Hardy and Dayman, Tuiti said, "All you people, tho owners of this land, should sign a document to the effect that you intcrd to hold tho land.'] They signed accordingly. ■ They also signed another agreeing to hand over 800 acres of land-to cover cos(s of action; liabilities on the land, and payments lo Tuiti and others.

To Mr. Massey: Witness was a large owner in tho biock. He had not consented to the sale, and had received no purchase money. No money had been offered him. No one had ever approached him saying, "there is so much for you if you consent to tho sale." AJ! (he Coast people opposed the sale. At the Mokau meeting Tuiti Macdonald and Hardy wcro appointed lo oppose tho sale. Four voting Natives were appointed to gc lo To Kuiti. They were told to opposo the sale of the land. When thev reached To Kuiti they consulted with Tuiti and Hardy aud stuck (o it th.it they had been sent to oppose the sale. They discussed the matter in their room, and when they came out—a sale! No reasons were given. He signed the first lease many years ago to Jlr. Jones. Ho thought that, not having consented to the sale, he was entitled lo have his section of the land cut out and handed over to him. When tho people, caino from Te Kuiti they put the . money beforo tho Natives, aud said, "there is the price of your land, if you don't take it now you will never see it again." This was a considerable timo after the representatives came back from Te Kuiti, saying that the land had been sold. The Natives were not satisfied with the sale. All of the proper owners of the land were dissatisfied. To Sir James Carroll: The first document signed was an authority to contest the leases. Bell, tho chief of tho Wellington lawyers, enmo up. Sir James Carroll pointed out that this was incorrect.

"Double-barrelled Gun," Witness said ho had heard that the great lawyer was coming with his doublebarrelled gnu. Sir James Carroll: Does he know whether tho gun was fired in both barrels?— Why, did it misfire?—Tho money was the trouble. Further examination on these lines extracted the information that £10 had been raised as "ammunition." Sir James Carroll: Was ono barrel to be directed against tho leases and tho other to recover £10,000 damages?—lt was to shoot tho leases and tho salo aud kill both. Sir James Carroll: Ono of tbo barrels, it has been said, was charged to fire in their behalf so as to recover money in payment for tho losses they bad been put to on account of broach of tho covenants iu the leases?— No. Sir James Carroll: Wasn t thcro a committee formed, under tho direction of their great lawyer, to act on their behalf? —Witness replied in the affirmative. To Dr. To Rangihiroa: He was a follower of To Whiti. „ „ What was the nttitudo of the followers of To Whiti towards alienation of land ?— Rome of them sold and some of them held on. Witness would not agree to the salo no matter how much money, was offered. Dr. To R-angihiroa: He would not sell as a matter of principle. It was not a question of money at all?— Yes; no matter how much money was offered he would not sell. . Tho chairman: Docs he claim .Hint (he placo where he is now living, and has been living for years, is part of the Mokau-Mohakalino Block ?—No. The chairman: Therefor. 1 he has an interest in other lands outside Mr. Jones's Witness rejoined that ho had ofher lands, but that (he board had got its hand on that too.

Mr, Horrman Lewis's Statement. Mr. Horrman Lewis, the next witness called, elected to make an aflirmation instead of being sworn. To a o,w.'stion as to his occupation, he replied that he was at potent pulling down 25 acres in potatoes at Lower Hutt. He thought he first became connected with the Mukau Hlcck at the ond of November, 1007. He had dealings with solicitors who were trustees for tho Flowers Estate. From these, solicitors, Messrs. Travers. Eussell, and

Campbell, he look out an option (o purchase Uio leasehold interest in the pro-pe-rtv, which belonged to their clients, I Wickhnm Flowers's executors. On May IS. KIDS, wilni."* sold the properly to, Messrs. Mason Chamber? mul KoM. Douglas M'Lran and Sir Francis Price, Bart. To Mr. Master. He sold the right to purchase. The' amount of (ho option was,Cl (.AM. , , „ t Mr. Massev: Is it not a fact that you took up (he option?-Ycs. I bought. Was (hat after the sale lo the gentlemen whose names vcni have mentioned?— My option had not expired. I sold it Gr st- , . .- T And purchased afterwards.'— les, I completed (he transaction. It is a fact that you mortgaged the property (o the executors of W'ickham Flowers"?— Yes. Witness continued that lie sold the properly to the people montioned for ,£25,000, and'an eighth interest. They paid £a, cash, of which .£13(10 had been locked up with Messrs. Moorhouso and Hndfield, solicitors, towards the purchase money. The remainder was to be on mortgage. Tlie amount was never paid over, and coasciniciil.lv lie gave a mortgage, back for .£14,000 to Wickham Flowers's trustees. Mr. Massey: Was the sale of the option completed to the gentlemen whoso names vou mentioned? Witness: No, their solicitor, Mr. P. S. M'Lean, objected that lie thought there was a flaw in the title. The sale was not completed. Mr. Massey: You became tho o\vjicr of tho leasehold interest subject to a mortgago of ,£14,000?—Exactly. Witness added that he thought the mortgage was completed on May 20, I'JOS. That was prior to tho report of the Native Land Commission?— Witness had not seen the report until a couplo of weeks ago. You heard it reportel that they had suggested that the leases were cither void or voidable?— Yes. Afterwards you took steps to secure tho freehold of the land?— Not at ftat time. Some time afterwards?— Yes. Did you conduct the business yourself or plac"> it in tho hands of your solicitors? —After the Hawke's Bay people decided not lo go on, then I brought tho matter before my solicitors. What solicitors did you employ?— Mr. F. G. Dalziell. Did he, on your behalf, ascertain in what wav he-could secure tho freehold for you ?—Not at that lime. Other negotiations wcro pending. I am not quite suro. 1 think Mr. Dalziell approached tho GovI eminent first.

The Order-in-Council, Did you, of your personal knowledge, know that it was possiblo to avoid Hie limitation provisions of the Act by tho issue of mi Order-iu-Councii ?—I knew (ho Act in reference to that But .Mr. Dalziell applied on yonr liehalf for the issue of an Order-in-Council? —The.Natives themselves were very anxious to sell, and had approached mo many times prior to that. Did vo.i apnly for the Ordcr-in-Conncil ? —I think it was Mr. Skerrett, who acted on behalf of (ho Natives, who did that. As a inn Iter of fact, you don't seem to know much about the Order-in-Council?— No. Still Mr. Dalziell was acting: for you. Ton found out afterwards that the Government had consented to issue an Order-in-Council. How did you ascertain that? —Mr. Dalziell mentioned it to mo. Did yon know anything about the convening" of the first "meeting- of assembled ewners to c<nsider your proposals?— Yes. I suppose Mr. Dalziell recommended you to purchase at a price to be arranged?—No, tho Natives wanted to sell a long time ago for ,£15,030. To v.lom?—To mo. Do you know anything 1 about tho offer to the Government by tho Natives?—l think they offered to tell to tho Government for -£22,500. Various Natives had mentioned this to him when they were in Wellington. 'Ilio Natives were Pepune Kketone, Androw nkctonc, and another. Do you know why the negotiations between' tho Natives and tho Government were 1 broken oli'r—No. Pepone Ekctono and the other Natives you mentioned gave you to understand that they were acting for the Natives and were authorised t'o dispose of tho land?— Yes. .

Was the first mooting of assembled owners arranged on your behalf-by-ybiir solicitors?—l think Mr. iSikcvrctt, "6n', behalf of the Natives, and Mr. Dalziell, on mv behalf, arranged it. Further questioned witness said there 1 was a mortgage of his interest lo Findlay, Dahiell, and Co., for £1000. A third mortgage had been given to Mr. M'Carthy by way of collateral security. Mr. Massey: Did you instruct Mr. Dalziell that you were willing to pay ,£25,000 to the Natives?—No; I think that prior to that the Natives present in Wellington agreed to accept that amount'. 1 was under the impression that they had full power to act for all. You havn heard that a majority of Natives were opposed t'o the sale?—l did not know of that at Iho lime. Witness eontinued that he was represented at To Kiiiti by Mr. Dalziell who attended the different meetings. Ho became possessed of iho freehold titlo subject to certain mortgages. Mr. Massey: Prior to becoming owner of the block had you given an option over the whole property ':— Yes. To the same gentleman?—No; t'o' Mr. Mason Chambers alone this time. Ho thought the, option was given on January li of this year. Tho transaction was completed. Ho sold his interest to Mr. Mason Chambers, retaining the land subject to sub-leases. This was an area of 701G acres. U was vested, with the rest of tho land, in the Native Land Board.

The Law of the Matter. Were there any conditions with regaTd to subdivision as between tho Maori Land Board and yourself when you became owner of (lie property ?—I think wo had to comply with the provisions of the Act. Is it not the law that Maori land shall not be sold in larger areas than 3000 acres of third-class land and a corresponding area of first-class land, and was not the law departed from when' you bought 53,000 acres?—lt was in tho interests of all concerned. Witness said he left this part to Mr. Dalziell. Ho purchased for J:25,000 aifd JC2500 worth of shares in a company of He parted with his interests to Mr. Mason Chambers for .£"1,000 in cash and .£-1000 worth of fully paid up shares in the company. Out of the ,£4OOO he had to pay his share of espouses He had not kept account of his expens3s. Mr. Herries: What was the date upon which Findlay and Dalziell beeame your solicitors in this matter?—l think it was in the latter part of 11)08. Witness said he purchased tho leasehold interest from Wickham Flowers's trustees on Mav 13. 190 S. When ho mortgaged tho leases for .£IOOO to J. G. Findlay and F- G. Dalziell, in February, 1010, he was in a private hospital about to undergo an operation. He telephoned to F. G. Dalziell to prepare a mortgage, which he executed, to cover costs in ease anything happened to hini. Ho sold out twice to Mason Chambers, the first occasion being three years previously. Ho had sold the leasehold for .£46,000 cash, and ,£25,000 for the freehold brought this up to .£71,000. Mr. nemos asked witness to account for the fact that, in one of the documents, he had acknowledged receiving .£54,000 for tho leasehold. Witness said ho did not think ho had acknowledged this sum. Mr. Ilerries said tho amount was ■£51,700. Mr. Dalziell interpolated that this would include Mr. Mason Chambers's profit. Witness said he understood that Mr. Mason Chambers had sold to the company at a higher price than that at. which witness had sold to him. Out of the .£4OOO worth of shares ho had paid a. portion of the .£2500 worth of shares given to tho Natives. At. this stage the Committee adjourned until 10.30 a.m. on Tuesday. ■