THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1219, 30 August 1911, Page 6

THE HOUSE.

WELCOME TO THE PREMIER. RAILWAYS, ROADS, A.ND BRIDGES. OPPOSITION CRITICISM. AND MINISTERIAL REPLIES. , ,The House met at 2.30 p.m.' When questions and formal business had been disposed of, Sir JOSEPH WARD rose, amid applause, to make a statement to the House-. He opened with a reference to the High Commif.slonsrship, remarking that the term of Sir Wm. Hall-Jones had lxon extended until the end of December next. No arrangement or understanding would bo made until then as to who was to succeed Sir Wm. Hall-Jones in the responsible position which he filled in the Old Country. Ho wanted to make it clear that there was not tho slightest possibility of his being an aspirant for the position. He had said this previously, but desired to say it officially in the House of Etprescntaiiyas. The Prime Minister also stated that he hoped to be able to deliver the Financial Statement to tho House, on Tuesday next or thereabouts. He would take an opportunity, when tho Leader of the Opposition was in his place, to make a statement in regard to the invitations to tho Coronation. Many very gross misrepresentations had been made in his absence -ho did not say by tho Lender of tho Opposition or by any particular person. Suggestions of duplicity on his part had been made, which were absolutely without foundation. Reaching Out for Tonga. While in England he had made representations to the British Government for the annexation of tho Tongan Group to New Zealand. The representations he had made could not at tho present moment be assented to. Some publicity had been given to the mntter, and it was likely to come up in the press. .His opinion was that tho Tongan Islands should bj. aunexed to New Zealand, and it was only right that, on behalf of this country, lie should make these representations in tho Old Country. ■.. The Primo Minister expressed his sincere regret at the death of the lato Mr. T. E. Taylor. Had he been here, he would have joined with others in paying a tribute of respect to his memory. It was gratifying io know that so able a gentleman had succeeded M.r. Taylor. The Prime Minister congratulated the Speaker (Sir A. E. Guinness) and the Nativo Minister (Sir James Carroll) r.u tho honours conferred upon them by the King. He next assured tho House that ho was very glad to be in his place once more and to find members looking so well. lie also greeted his friends on the Opposition benches. He was vary glad to see them in their places again and looking so well.. He was glad to know that the Dominion was in a prosperous condition, and believed it was on the road to be more prosperous still.

Welcomed Back. SIE W. J. STEW ABB, as senior member of the House, welcomed the Prime Minister back to their midst. The right hon. gentleman had just conducted a very important mission. Although they might not agrco in every particular, ail would sympathise with him in his desire for the advancement of Imperial progress and prosperity. Only one other leador from any outside part of the Empire had filled the public eye more than had Sir Joseph Ward. He referred to ,Sir Wilfrid Laurier. He moved:— "That this Hoiiso extends a cordial welcome to the Eight Hon. Sir Joseph Ward, on his return from London, and records its high appreciation of the able manner in which ho represented the Dominion at the Imperial Conference, and of the satisfactory and adequate expression given by him of the devotion of the public of Now Zealand to the Crown and the Empire."

Mr. J. HANAN (Invercargill) seconded the resolution. . lie said all those who had read the reports of the deliberations at the Imperial Conference would come to the conclusion that Sir Joseph Ward had proved the .right man in tho right place. The motion was carried on tho voices. imperial conference, kei'out laid on the table. The PKIMi; MINISTER moved lo lay on the table of the House the minutes of the proceedings at tho Imperial Conference. Ho directed the attention of (ho House and the country to the fact (■hat every resolution carried at the Conference was carried unanimously and every resolution opposed—except one moved by himself which he would not agree to withdraw for reasons he would explain later—was withdrawn. One important resolution moved by himself upon which he could have called for a division, ho withdrew in accordanco- with custom. It was obvious that resolutions, unless passed unanimously, would be of no use whatever as in order to give them effect they must bo made the basis of legislation in tho respective Parliaments of tho Empire, lie had never contemplated getting the Imperial Council resolution passed, but was proud of having submitted it. UVenty-six resolutions were carried unanimously by tho Conference. They would bo submitted to Parliament later on.

Mr. Allen: JJo you propose to int'roduco legislation about it? The PKIME MINISTER stated that where legislation was required it would lie introduced. .Some of the resolutions did not require legislation, Ho had the honour of having proposed two-thirds of [he. resolutions which were carried by U lc Conference. Apart from the resolutions carried nn immense amount of valuable work had been done. As an outcome of tho Conference the Old Country and fho Dominions would be drawn closer to-

Rofher limn they had ever boon before. Very important work had Ixjcn done in connection with tho defence of the Empire. A much bolter under.it.inding existed owing to the oversea Dominions having bpen taken into the confidence of the Dritish Government in regard to matters vitally all'tcling the difl'crent parts of the Umpire. He acknowledged the good work done by the AHorneyGonoial, Sir John i'lndlay, in connection with legal matters that eaino forward. Vnlunblo n?.*ist;iiu'n hail been given him by sJe.«rs. Hislop and Matthews (private secretaries) in connection with iho multitudinous duties and work that devolved upon him. In a period of six weeks-he had signed no less (linn ,'iGOO letter.-. This would give some idea of the work. Al.-o, apart from Imperial work, lie had delivered 73 speeches since leaving Now Zealand. It would bo seen tint lie had not had nn idle time. He moved that the minutes of tho Conference Ijc printed without delay.

Mr. .Tas. ALLEN* (Bruce) suggested that the Premir.r might take an opportunity later of saying "rcinething further about the Toman affair. Any papers available might bo laid on the table, and the House give:i an opportunity to say something'about Tonsra later on. The PRIME" MINISTER stated that he did not think it ne-co-oary to pive the House an opportunity of disenssine Tonga. He had written a letter to the Secretary of State for the Colonies on the subject which ho would have no objection to laying on the table. The reply of tho Secretary of State was a verbal one. given after they had discussed the position. A QUESTION OF PRINTING. The PRIME MINISTER moved to lay on the table a number of statements rcturnsd under the Land Settlement Finance Act. If it were the wish of the Hoiim these statements could be printed, but he thought it unnecessary. They dealt with the private affairs of people who had taken up land under the Act. Mr. W. C. BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) suggested that the statement should bo referred to the Printing and Debates Committee, and the Primo Minister aB Mr. J. P. LFKE (Wellington Suburbs) moved as an amendment that the papers should bo printed

Mr. R.\A. WRIGHT (Wellington South) called attention to the curious position in which it was proposed to place the Printing and Debates Committee. First, it wns proposed to refer a report to them, and then it was proposed to bind them to a particular decision. Surely it was the business of the Printing and Debatos Committees to say whether the paper should be printed. Trie position at present was that when a Minister roso to lay a paper on the table some me nber jumped up and said "and b? printed," and the Minister echoed the words. The Printing and Debates Committee was left to deal only with "tup-peny-ha'penny" matters that did not de-sc-rve attention.

The PRIME MINISTER said he agreed for once with the member who had just sat down, but blamed the Opposition for securing tho printing of all sorts of papers and robbing the Printing and Debates Committee of its functions. If tho Government had their way almost everything would go to the Printing and Debate Committee.

Mr. Luke withdrew his amendment, and the statements were referred to the Printing and Debates Committee.

IMPREST SUPPLY. GOVERNMENT'S TREATMENT OF SETTLERS. HO ADS AND BRIDGES. An Imprest Supply Bill was introduced by Governors Milage. On the motion to go into Committee ot Supply, Mr. JAS. ALLEN (tiruco) seized the opportunity to criticise what had been done by (he (jovernment with appropriations and supplies given last year, and more especially the expenditure upon roads and bridges. Either Parliament had been misled, ho stated, in being asked to vote, much 'arger sums than wero required for roads and bridges, or Pji-liamcnt had been flouted, larlmment had been asked to vote certain sums, and then the Administration hud ignored Parliament altogether, and uono what it pleased in regard to their expenditure. The amount appropriated for roads and bridges last year was ■5.0%,000. Examining tho expenditure, it would bo found that only the comparatively small sum of i' 251,103 had been spent. Mr. Hanan: What about the liabili-ties-5 Mr. Allen said he had heard about the liabilities before, and it was mere subterfuge. Tho liabilities were made a charge upon the appropriations of the following year. The wish of Parliament in this matter had not been carried out'. The Ministry had no right to come to Parliament and say that the urgent needs of the country necessitated a certain expenditure, and then spend only half tho amount. Something more was at stake than the will of Parliament. In the Financial .Statement of 190S the Minister of Finance stated that he intended to ask for an appropriation of .£650,000, of which sum ,£250,000 would be expended upon roads in the backblocks. This particular expenditure would be continued for a period of four years, including tho current year. In brief, in 1908, just prior to tho general election, the. Minister had stated that a million of money would be spent on back-blccks roads, at the rate of a quarter of a million a year. It would be interesting to know, now that another general election was coming, what the preparations would bo for tho coming year. The Back-Blocks Settlers.

He would ask the Minister whether he had kept faith with the hack-block settlers. . He had promised to spend .£250,000 a year f.or four years. Ho hoped that the back-block settlers would have something to say when the time camo for them to express their opinion, as it would come very shortly. He proposed to show that the Ministry had not kept their word; In-190S-9 (the year of tho general election), instead of a quarter of - a million, ,£153,000 was expended on back-block roads. He was not going, to cavil very much at that, for the appropriation was made lata in the year. but the "breach of promise" was commenced in (he next year (11109-10). The appropriation in that year was ,£210,200, but the expenditure dropped to .£127,197, not half of what was prn ; mised in the election year, and little more than half of the appropriation for the year. In 1910-11 the appropriation did come up to J2230,720, not very far off the amount promised, but tho amount expended was only- i 53,158. Ho could not recite this fact without coming to tho conclusion to whioh every honest man must come—that (he promise in 190S was broken and that the Ministry ought to answer to the country for their breach of faith. If it was not necessary to appropriate and expend a million on backblocks roads in four years, the Ministry ought to have said so. Either Parliament had been deceived or the Ministry had not kept faith. One year remained of the four which had been mentioned. If the promise were to be fulfilled these backblock settlers were entitled to an expenditure of .EGU-1,000 on their roads. Mr. Allen next referred to a return which jiad been laid before the House showing the cost of raising loans. Year after year this return had been refused. Last year he had moved that a return showing the particulars in connection with raising loans should be laid before the Houss 12 months after the loan was floated. This motion being defeated, Mr. Herdman moved that the particulars be supplied within two years. This motion also, owing to Ministerial opposition, was defeated. These things had given rise to much criticism in the country, and he was glad tq note, from the appearance of tho present return,- (hat the criticism had had soino effect upon the Ministry. This return dealt only with loans raised up to March ,11 l°o9 and of none that had been authorised after the session of 1008. _ In fact it was a. Isolated return ot ancient loans The Minister had claimed that on some of the loans premiums hod been "Tenter than discounts so that the loans had been raised at a profit. Ihe fact was that, in one instancy, JJi,BIB,OOO had been raised repayable in 1922-23. The period was long and the interest' high, so Hint natural} - Mie loan was floated at a premium. " If tho term had been made 20 instead of 11 years, or if the interest had been raised from ■', to J l , nnr cent, (he premium would liavo been hHier still. But what was the profit to Ihe countryr The country had to pay I nnr cent* on loans for the next eleven vear's. Yet the liinislTy had boasted that

they had \yocn converting into lower rales of interest. It was int'erosting, too, to realise (lint the return did not contain Hie whole history of Iho loans. Jfo wanted to know whether any of loans hail l*en converted during Hie period covered by the return, if so, what the conversion had eost and what the conversion added to the public, debt. Mr. Allen eit'ed tho case of a one million loan raised temporarily at :U per cent Afterwards it was converted into a long-dated loan at the same rato of interest. Nothing was saved in interest and the public debt was increased by ,£25,200 as a result of the. conversion' of this single loan. Tho fact, was that tho Government was inducing people to take up short-dated loans by tho bribe or incentive of having them subsequently converted into inscribed stock at .£lO2 or .£lO3, though they had paid in tho first place £% 10s. This was at any rate true of the five million lean. Jtr. Allen, in closing, briefly criticised the position of the Railway Superannuation i'und. It was actuarially unsound, though the Prime Minister bad repeatedly refused to obtain a report. When its unsoundness and tho responsibility borne by tho State came to bo realised, evil results might coino to the railway servants.

THE RAILWAYS. A SEABCH FOR TRUTH. Mr. A. L. HERDMAN (Wellington North) said ho intended to embark on a search for truth. v Tho Hon. T. Mackenzie: "You want it sometimes!" Mr. Jlerdman: "So rto you, a good deal more than I do, and you'll get it too, if you wait!" Mr. Herdman was proceeding to deal with railway grievances, when— Tho Hon. J. A. Millar, Minister for Railways, rose to object that the lion, gentleman was dealing with matters that were before a committee of tho House. Mr. Herdman claimed that he was entitled to discuss tho geuenil question of railway administration. The SPEAKER ruled that matters dealt with in a petition could not bo touched upon in tho House, but added that the prohibition did not extend to the general question. Mr. Herdman declared that the whole railway service at the present time was in a staje of ferment and discontent. He did not wholly blame the Minister for this. While lie was overloaded with other work, as at preseut, it was impossible that ho should ninnage the huge railway enterprisj in the interests of tho people. Much of tnc trouble that existed at present was due not to the fault of tho Minister, but of his predecessors. In tho time of the Railway Commissioners tho railways were deliberately starved in order that tttat form of management might be' made unpopular. Afterwards a policy of drift set m. Ho proposed to ask the Minister a series of questions :—

I. Is it possible in this country to rim our railways so that they will pay interest on the canital invested?

2. Is it possible to rim them so that they will become a satisfactory carrying concern for the people of New Zealand? 3. Can they be run in such n way as to give satisfaction to all the people'in the employ of the Government? He wanted light thrown also upon the whole arrangement ot the railways. Also he wanted (o know all about the Commissioners. Parliament should grasp this position firmly, and get some qualified man from abroad to investigate ami roport upon the railways. Ho did not benevo the Minister could supply the information desired. The Prime Minister, in a recent reference to criticism of the. railways, had expressed a hope that in the next world the railways, if there wero any, would β-iye satisfaction. The statement was ambiguous, for tho hon. gentleman had not stated what next world he referred to!

A member: Not the ono you are going

Mr. Hcrdman stated that, in the world to which he and the Opposition were bound, the method of locomotion was flying. Obviously the lion, gentleman had referred to Ins own future home! Mr. Poole: Oh, your theology is cronk! -Mr. Hcrdmau said that .ymio journeys by New Zealand railways left us in no doubt as to what future world the hoji gentleman had referred to.

Minister's Statement Challenged. He went on to say that the statement mado by tho Minister for Railways when ho returned from Australia was not accurate. Mr. Millar said he could show the official returns of tho New South Wales Commissioners. Mr. Hordnian eaid that his informant had spoken with the Minister's statement in hand, and had laid bare a number of discrepancies. In many instances rates v/ere lower in New South Wales than here, and the Chief Commissioner in New South Wales (Mr. Johnston) had just issued returns showing that financially the railways in that State wero on a better financial footing than those' of New Zealand. Mr. W. H. BERRIES (Tauranga) said he, too, saw some very serious discrepancies in the Minister's statement with the official papers that could bo obtained from other colonies. As to railway grievances, he believed that the House was honestly desirous of righting them, but it could only bo done by a vote of want of confidence in tho Minister. Government members were thus in the position of having to leave the matter alone, or remove a Government with' which in other respects they agreed. This was an evil inseparable from the present system. If control by a Commissioner wero in vogue, it would bo a perfectly easy thing to right the grievances of railway servants, and Parliament would exercise some real control over the raiilways. Mr. Hemes supported the assertion made by Mr. Herdman that the statement inado by the Minister for Railways on his return from Australia was in many respects inaccurate. Some most misleading statements had been mado in regard to fares. Mr, Hemes' quoted instances in which the Minister had quoted New South Wales faros at considerably more, than tho actual amount. The truth was that the suburban rates charged within a thirtyfour milo radius of the New South Wales cities had been ignored when tho statement presented by the Minister was being framed. Since that time fares in New South Wales had been reduced. Rates over distances up to 100 miles were lower in all the Australian States, except perhaps Queensland, than in New Zealand. Concluding, Mr. Herries pointedly referred to the fact that Parliament had to take opportunities of discussing'the railway system of the colony at odd times. /

Defending the Government. Jtr. W. D. S. MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty) roferred to the statement of the lion. ' member for Bruco that the Government Had misled the people, and IV -.:nent in regard to the expenditure of Viiias for roads in back-block districts. There, was a very good reason for this. Moved by Opposition criticism, the present Minister for Public Work?, on takin" office, had handed over the control ot back-block roads to the county councils. Votes also were handed over to the county councils to be expended. He was not oiie of tho-« who had advocated tins departure. Tlie county councils were not in a position to expend the money so expeditiously as the loads Department, now defunct, lind ten. There were eight counties in. the electorate he represented, and practically it was a backblocks electorate, fcach year largo sums had been voted to the county councils within its boundaries, for public works but settlers had had the greatest difficulty in getting the couivcils to expend the money. Sixteen grants, totalling £7500 had been held over for the past two years and had not yet been spent. The "position was that the county conn, cils would not spend the money. AYhilo the IJoads Department remained in existence Hie Government was accused of bribing the settlers. Xow they were accused of failing to expend the sums voted. The accusation of the hen. member for Urucc was not quite in accordance with fids ' In infl!) the lion, menibsr lor Bruce and others had detained the House until December on a in at tor of no importance. SIR JOSEPH WARD IN REPLY. LOANS AND THE BACKDLOCKS. TV- PRIME MINTSTKR (Sir .Toseph Ward) asked when Jlr. -Allen had ever visited the bacl;blocks or done anything for tho backblocks settlers in the House. On the contrary he had don? everything lie could to discredit by totalling up (he amounts of all the loans, including thiiso which were specially meant to lxmefit the settlers. Mr. Allen inid voted to spend on l'avli'Mnntavy buildings

outside Wellington, ne declaimed last year against the Government spending too much money, and now he was complaining that the. backbloeks and tho country had been deceived through the Government spending too little. Jlr. Hardy was calling for a large expenditure of money in buying estates in his electorate, and Mr. llerries had demanded large expenditures in the Tauranga district. Mr. Allen had put on record time after time in the House (he totals of the loans, with a vimv to preventing people getting the loans they wanted for their roads, bridges, and rail ways, and yet he had said that if there was money floating about he was going to try to "get a share for his district. In regard to the voles not being fully expended in the year for which they were voted the hon. member must know that if the money was not spent one year, it was carried forward to the next year. Tho Public Works Department, had issued to tha local bodies the authorisations for all the monevs voted. Mr. Allen:' No. Sir Joseph Ward: No? Mr. Mnssey: No. It's, not so. Sir Joseph Ward: "Well, practically all. I am assured by tho responsible officer of the Public Works Department that that is so." The local bodies had not been ablo to spend tho moneys within tho period. The remarks of Mr. Allen regarding the terms ou whicli loans had been raised seemed to mean that had Mr. Allen been Finance Minister he would have paid excessive rates for the' loans in order to show an excessivo profit. Mr. Allen: No. Sir Joseph Ward, continuing, said that tho average rate of interest on loans when tho Liberal Government took ofiieo was .£1 10s Cd. per cent., and last year it was .£3 11s. Gd. This meant a saving of .£608,027 annually. Mr. nerries, in a personal explanation, raid the hon. gentleman had accused him of going round the country denouncing borrowing. This he wished to contradict. He ha<l not denounced borrowing, but the rotten way in which tho Government spent tho money. LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION. UNEXPENDED VOTES. ' Mr. W. F. MASSEY, Leader of the Opposition, said he was somewhat at a disadvantage, as he had not heard tho whole of the debate. Before dealing with statements that had been made he desired to welcome Sir Joseph Ward back to his place in Parliament. He was glad to see hi;.i back in good health and good form. But ho could not help regretting that the Prime Minister had not brought back more dignity fram his association with tho British statesmen whom he must havo met during the last few months. If this was the result of coming into contact with British statesmen, ho (Mr. Ma±\sey) was glad that no invitation had reached him. Ho protested strongly against the Prime Minister's assertion that the member for Bruce was bent on discrediting tho country. The people who injured tho credit of this country wero those who wero guilty of -such wasteful exp-anditure that they could not carry on without adding six and a half millions to tho indebtedness of this country in one year. Tho complaint made by tho member for Bruce was that the Government had not expended tho sum voted by Parliament for back-block roads. The sum voted for Public Works last year was J3G,OGO. Tho amount spent, was .£254,163, leaving unexpended ,£340,701. The black-block settlers and local bodies had a very real grievance. The Public Works Statement should not be kept back until such a late period of the session. When the money had once been voted by Parliament it should be available by the local bodies and settlers interested. The r--: , -

Ma for. delaying the Estimates was ph enough. The Minister for Public Woiks was an old hand, who knew well that once the Estimates had been brought down even members of his own party would become independent. But untii tho Public Works Estimates came down very few country inembers dared to risk tho anger of the Government. Tho fault rested not with' members, but solely with tho Government. The Premier had paid that it was'the present Government that had provided cheap money for the settlors. As a. fact, it was no longer possible for country local bodies to borrow as advantageously aathey could under the Local Bodies Loans Act. The local todies would probably have to pay more ; in the near future for money than tho XI 17*. 6d. they paid at present. The Premier had twitted the hou. member for Bruce with opposing the Advances to Settlers Act. Why did ho not mention that his own colleagues, the Minister for Agriculture aud the Minister for Bailways had opposed the Act? The Loan Return. Was tho loan return, ■which Mr. Allen hfttl criticised at an earlier stage of the debate, the last return which tho Premier intended to supply ? Sir Joseph Ward: You will get all information in due course. Mr. Massey asked when was tho House to have detail particulars of tho five million loan raised last year. Sir Joseph Ward: I will bring down the Financial Statement next Tuesday. Mr. Massey asked if the hon. gentleman would take that opportunity of supplying detail particulars of the five million loan. Sir Joseph Ward: I will give tho information as soou as I have it, whatever it is. Mr. Massey said the hon. gentleman was evoding'the question. Though tho five million loan was raised in November not a member of the House, except members of the Ministry, knew anything about the details of the loan. Touching upon the subject of railways, Mr. Mnssey paid he very much regretted that the oftrepeated proposal to set aside eight days upon which to discuss the railways had not been given effect. No proper opportunity was given to discuss the position of the railways in ..which the people, had sunk something like .£30,000,000. Dealing with differential rates, Mr. Massey stated that in some places where there was no water-carriage competition rates twice as heavy were being charged in one place as were charged in another. Ho mentioned the case of two places at equal distances from one centre. The rate from one placo on ordinary goods was 18s. and from tho other 375. Dd. Ho endorsed tho statement that there had never been greater dissatisfaction with the Kaiiway. Service than at present. Mr. Massey was proceeding to discuss railway grievances, when the Hon. J. A. Millar raised a point of order.

The SPEAKER repeated his ruling, given earlier in l-ho day, that tho subject matter of a petition before the House must not bo debated.

Mr. Massey said the Speaker would sco the position they were getting into. If there was a desire on tho part of uny member of the House- to prevent any subject being discussed, all he need do was to present a petition to the lloiipo on that subject. Then tho Houso would bo blocked for the rest of that session, or until tho committee reported.

SPEECH BY THE HON, J. A, MILLAR, GRIEVANCES OF RAILWAY SERVANTS. Tho Hon. J. A. MILLAR, Minister for Railways, said the. lion, member for Wellington North had stated that ho had communicated with New South W.iles and that he had received statements from gentlemen there whom ho would not name, lie had also quoted Mr. Johnston, Chief Commissioner of 'Railways in New South Wales. Thou he had accused him (the Minister) of placing false statements before tho House. In this he_ had been backed by the member for Taurr.nsa. Mr. lle'rrios: Misleading statements. Th? Minister asked if the members named had placed fair statements li-'fore the House. He contended that their statements were misleading, because incomplete. He was prepared at any jimo (0 compare the special rates in New Zealand and in New South Wales. As to the grievances of railway servants, he was propared to nay higher to honest men. A member: What c!o you mean?. . Tho Minister: What I say. TIIO wages paid at tho present time were fair. They wore 011 wages paid un-l-r Arbitration Court awards. He had livie.i> offered the railway servants an '.>j);'.orln;iity of going under the Arbitration Act. The offer lir.d referred to the whole of the employers in the service, ,iml they had twice'rejected it. The bst occasion was only about eight months ago. Tin executive had then replied that they did not want it. He had therefore demanded a reply from the whole of the branches, and they bad unanimously rejected the proposal. He was prepared to give them the chance again to-mor-row. The Minister promised to prepare a detailed statement showing the position of the railways. It could bo

submitted to Mr. Johnston, and ho chair lenged any fair comparison with Now South Wales. The return of free passes mentioned by Mr. Herdman would bo supplied. As to the questions of the sanio hon. gentleman, it was impossible to so run the railways us to give universal satisfaction, but they were conducted, with every regard for' justice.

OTHER SPEECHES. MOKE ABOUT THE RAILWAYS. Mr. W. llElililKS (Tauranga) said the Minister had failed to meet many points that had been raised in criticism. Mr. • Jlcrrics quoted rates and other particulars extensively in support of his criticism, and contended that the hon. gentleman so managed tile railways that people swarmed in towns and could not get out into tho country. Mr. .las. ALLIiN (Bruce) said the Prime Minister had accused him of being wanting in sympathy for tho back-blocks scl> tier. Tho true test lay in tho work done. I'nrliamc.iit had voted the money. Why had not the Government ppent it? Mr. JIISRDMAN (Wellington North) said ho wanted to (jot at tho truth about tho railways by means of an investigation, by tho best, expert they could obtain, and' if tho expert could prove that he was wrong in thinking the commissioner system was better than Ministerial control lie μ-ds prepared to bo convinced. Hβ contended that if New Zealand railways had been conducted on the lines of those in Now South Wales the country would have been £493,000 better off last year. The railways had slipped into contusion through a gradual drift and had got into a state of muddlemont and chaos. An impartial investigation had been absolutely necessary. Department and County Councils. The Hon. R. M'KENZIE quoted items from the Public Works Statement of Inst year intent on showing that ample provision had been made for the back-blocks. Ho ventured to say that the public works expenditure of last year had given complete satisfaction to settlers throughout tho Dominion. Mr. V. W. LANG (Mnnukaji) supported the contention that great dissatisfaction was felt at tile conditions of tho railway service. The lack of suburban trains was retarding the progress of the country. REMARKS BY SIR J. WARD, THE FIVE MILLION LOAN. The PRIME MINISTER referred to aa "extraordinary absolutely marvellous statement," made by the Leader of tho Opposition, that the country had borrowed six and a half millions last year. . Ho , had nevei , heard grosser misrepresentation in his life lhau hnd been uttered in connection with this matter. He would also refer to a statement by the member for Wellington North. Tor gross and deliberate misrepresentation ho had not heard anything to brat it. The 111 10 loan of five million included .£BOO,OOO for railway construction and .£350,000 for additions to opeu lines. Both items were voted for by the Opposition. The same was true of an item of .£500,000 for land settlement and .£IOO,OOO in respect of other public works. Authority was given under tho Naval Defence Act to raise X 1,250,000 to pay for a Dreadnought. This also was supported by tho Opposition. Mr. Massey: "We had no option." The Premier said the Opposition only objected to the way in which it was , done. What they voted against was tho adjournment of _ Parliament in order that he might go Homo to attend a Dcfenco Contcrence. They did not voto against tho loan. Tho iivo million loan included a sum of .£1,675,000 for advances to settlers. Tho Opposition M-ould not deny having supported that, nor a loan of .£325,000 for advances to workers. Tho whole of them supported the fivo million loan. Mr. Massey said the fivo million loan was never before the House. In the pre- . ceding year authority was given to raise ■£1,250,000, and tho Opposition had also i supported that.

THE DILL. GEANTS BY WAY OF IMPREST. Tho House went into Committee- of Ways and Means'at 11.55 p.m., and tho Imprest Supply Bill (No. 2) was put through tho stages up to the second reading. , , Tho Bill provides for the grant by way of imprest, for tho current financial year, of sums of .£695,000 ■ and J813.4.-00, out of tho respective accounts, as below:— First Schedule. £ The Consolidated Fund 450,000 The Public Works Fund 200.0UI) Opening up Crown Lands for ' Settlement Account 5,000 Tho National Endowment Account ■ ...» WOO The Land for Settlements Account 3,000 The State Forest Account 2,500 Tho Stale Coal-mines Account ... 25,000 The Scenery Preservation Account • v The Wellington-Hutt Railway aud Road Improvement Account 1,500 The Railways Improvements Account ••■••;••• 5,000 The Native Land Settlement Account l> m 695,000 Second Schedule. The Government Insurance Account •.•;—•;•••; '• The Government Accident • Insurance Account 1.000 The Stato Firo Insurance Ac(.pnnt 1,400 Tho Public Trust Oflico Account 1,800 The New Zealand State-guaran-teed Advances AccountAdvances to Settlers Branch Account 2,009 Advance's to Workers Branch Account 200 13,400 Tho third reading being moved, Mr MASSEY made reference to past actions to show that he had not been against cheap money, and had suggested means for providing it years ago. Ino Prime Minister never told Parliament tlurt ho was going to plate a 5 .million loan on tho London market. All tho items wore, authorised by Parliament, but tho way in which the loan was put on tho market was bad finance. Mr W. HEKRIES (Tanrnnga) said ho was not opposed to borrowing, but he hoped to show when the Public Works Estimates came down that a great deal of the money that was borrowed at present was wasted, and ini"ht as well to thrown into tho sea Taxation was being extracted front tho' people that onlr went to swell a sur?l,jnio PRIME ■ MINISTER s?:vi ho had had to oppose, the mortgage, tax because tho repeal of it would imablo tho large landowner to evade the land tax by mortgaging his property among his friends. °Mr. Masspy: Nonsense. You don't understand it a bit. The Prime Minister: I know that it ia so. Mr. Allen: You'ro quito mistaken. The Bill was read a third timo and pas-cd, nnd tho House adjourned at 1.15 a.m.