FACING THE MUSIC.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 1107, 21 April 1911, Page 7

FACING THE MUSIC.

' COUNCIL AND TRAMS. IS AN OUTSIDE REPORT NEEDED? \ MEDLEY OF "YES" AND "NO." BUT AN; INTERESTING DEBATE.

'For some time a' report has been' awaited from tho sub-committee which was sot up by tho City Council to confer with its tramway employees. '• Last evening the committeo reported that, after careful consideration, it liaii arrived nt tho conclusion that it was not in a position to submit recommendations. Tho. question was one involving tho.jfiamior in which the Tramway TralEc Department carried out its functions, and one on which it was, necessary that expbrt advice should-be obtained. The committee, therefore, recommended that tho llayor be empowered to engage the services of a traffic expert to investigate and report upon the traffic management! ■The. Mayor stated that it had been W4ll . known for some time that such a report was required. The recent conference with the men had given them considerable light.in regard to the rosters, and the running of the trams on particular,' routes, where <it', was; a. debated questipn whether Hey should or should not There ve ' :e a good many details which, at present,- they should not make Public, but they (the sub-committee) asked that the best expert in Australasia should be obtained, who should be given carte blanche in making his investisjtion. . H. 6- was sure that all councillors were agreed that the management and the traffic' required looking into, and the course proposed by tho sub-committee would really be a cheap one in the end. He moved that the report be approved. L Councillor Trevor seconded the motion, lhe time had come when they should have a revision and a report by an expert would' be cheap at any price. Why Go Outside? :"I think we are going .just a little bit quick jn this matter," said Councillor Fletcher. "I would rather be in favour < of getting an unbiased report from an engineer. . He should be quite capable of putting before the council.a feasible plan in' regard to the working of the trainways. At any rate, I think it is duo to these officers that we should ask them to put,in a full report on the workfing of -thb whole system before we call upon an expert. I. am quite convinced, that, not. only in tho immediate past, but also oyer a longer period, njany suggestions have tbeen made by the engineer that, haVe. not been actcd upon." ■ . 'Councillor b'liirtcli/fe said that he was under the impression that the Mayor and tlie sub-committee held information not shAreel.'by the council. He hold, with Councillor Fletcher, that this proposal had. been brought down very suddenly. The council was asked to vote upon a very- important motion that was going to.;,- involve _ the Tramways Department in':"..a 1 ..considerable expense. The result "might be of doubtful value. He would also like to know soiiitehiii"litore of the cvidenre that had been'laid before the sub-committee before he voted ■upon .the motion. It seemed that, if •the' Mayor had information which it would b.s premature to disclose to the jiross, it 1 niight- be well to; go into committee so j that the Mayor might bo enabled to take | the council -into his confidence a little ! more than he had been able to do up to that time. If there was anything wrong with-tho traffic management, the logical thing to do was first to get the information. in' hand verified by the information of the council's engineers. The cost of getting an outside expert report Would, quite: likely, run to several hundred pounds. \ And then, after all, the report of : ft Stranger, not conversant with, local.cout: ditions,.might only be of doubtful -value.- ■' "I myself," concluded Councillor Shirt- ; clift'e, "would rather be guided by the re- 1 port'of our own engineers." c Councillor Frost: "We have had'them." Councillor Shirtclifre:- "You. may have p bad them, but^other-councillors'liav«'iiot ? had them." :-.. • • t . More Information Wanted, Finally, Councillor Shirtclilfe moved, in order that the council might have an opportunity of knowing more about the matter that was being discussed, that it : go, into committee. ' ! Councillor Atkinson seconded the amend-' v ment. ..... j . .Onia. division, the amendment w-as rejected by_ eight votes to five. ,The division list was as follows-.—Ayes: Crs- Atkinson, Cohen, Luke, Morrali. ami iShirtcliue. Noes: The Mayor, and Coun- i cillors Fitzgerald, Fletcher, Frost, Hind- ! marsh, fjmith, Thompson, and Trevor. i Like other councillors, said Councillor i itzgerald, he had only received this re- « port, at five o'clock that afternoon. At the. same-time ho was prepared to oppose the.proposal raised in it. He was-.su're that everybody rccognised that the weak- ! a vcr y fine undertaking Was t the traffic department. It was a ques- i tion, however, whether they could get , anybody ill Australasia qualified to re- i P?,{X °" the Wellington tramways. i . ,The Mayor: }es, one. .. I have made a * suggestion to Mr. Morton, and he agrees { that there is no doubt about it. Councillor Fletcher: "Speaking froni j memory, I don't think there is a tram- j way system in Australia that has mealshuts.,, . Now - , that is the wliole trouble r in Wellington. . , The Mayor: "Yes, there is one, in Bris- i bane. j Our Tram System Bad. e Councillor Fitzgerald: Well, you are * going to get a man in Brisbane, who is ' not at all conversant with our,' requirements, to come across hero and report % upon a.system that he docs not know any- = thing -about at all. If you want a report, it should be upon the whole sys- v tem. I want to know, why wo cannot get unreport from our own "officers. We have s three engineers who arc paid .£4OO a e year, and one who is paid ,£750 a year. 'U hy can't we get these engineers to give us a report? They are thoroughly con- , versant with conditions iu Wellington, f -continued Councillor Fitzgerald, J, that. the tramway system in Wellington is wrong from top to bottom. Are t the carshnds being conducted as they r ought to be 1 am prepared to say that i, rG traffic' department is anything but right, but why confine „ investigation to the traffic department? f I, believe that the man who ought to L ■ ii- 7i- a " le traffic department t in Wellington is Mr. Cable. Now -wo nay i, a ,paltry a year for the most "important work in the whole department— the traffic management. We expect the traffic, manager to carry out his duties for 6uch a paltry sum."' t; ~ On- the evidence F have," continued h councillor Fitzgerald, I am prepared to vote against..this motion (the Mayor's), a I move:— That a report be obtained from 1' the clectncal engineer—from Mr. Cable.'" I) I-rost, speak;ng as a member B Of , tho sub-committee, said that he was a surprised at councillors asking that their c own officers should report upon practically- « their own work. * o The Mayor: That is the point. p Councillors: The cleetrical engineers! k Councillor Fitzgerald: Y'es, from tho " electrical engineers upon tho whole work- ti ing of the tramway system. t' Councillor Frost: Instead, (hey should ti get one of the best experts in the world, t] Cries of "Who?" "Who?" Councillor Frost, (looking at the Mayor): o I don't know whether it should be made public? Has your Worship any objection? The Mayor: No. a A Brisbane Expert. 0 Councillor Frost said the expert pro- \ pbSed was Mr. Badger, electrical engi- r neer and traffic manager of tho Brisbane o Tramways. Councillor Frost went on to sa.v that the sub-committee had felt that no one r but an expert could give thcin the advice , which they required. It was also felt I that' the trams should show a considerably larger profit than at present. They ? had been pleased to see the revenue iii- i crease, but tho expense had increased at i . faster rate. Tliey had been given various for this. Reports had l>een submitted from time In time by J heir J officers and what was the use nf askini? v •fnr another? He knew thai the council t was in its dying hours, but they could at least provide the new council with tlie 11 information that Would enable them to 1

go into this matter. He also thought the scopo of tho proposed report should bo widened to includo the tramways as a whole. The Mayor remarked that tlie committee thought it unsatisfactory for the city engineers to practically report upon themselves and for the engineers and y tramways to decide whether tlie roster which tho men had • produced was ft better one than that in use. About the staff generally the Mayor had nothing to say, but there wns some weak screw which had got to bo tightened or removed altogether. (Hear, hear.) If a Zoo Expert, Why Not Tramway? i .Councillor Luke said that lie would like the council to.have gone into com- '' mittco to have all information possible 's submitted. lie was surprised that;G'oun- . cillor Fletcher should have been against ( ( this suggestion, since ho had been in faj vour of getting an expert to come , over 1 and report upon tho "Zoo." (Laughter.) s He avowed that, in regard to the.inechani- ical part of the tramways, they could g not- get better than they had at '<3 present, but there was something to be , desired in the management of the traffie. He characterised the management of the traffic in Courtenay Placo in strong i- terms. 0 Councillor Fletcher Explains. Councillor Fletcher (replying to Coun--0 cillor Luke) asserted that there t- was ; a total difference between n getting an expert for the "Zoo" and a one for tho tramways.. There was no expert in New Zealand who could report upon the "Zoo." Ho opposed importing [' experts on principle, as long as men were '* here who were capable of doing the work. 5" Reports had been, submitted by the.cnV gineers which had not had the fair play they should. If, in this case, when the s report came from the officers, it was not 'j satisfactory, they could then get • outside 1 advice. At present it was not fair to pass their officers over. 0 Tho Mayor took exception to Council--1 lor Fletcher's words about reports. a Councillor Fletcher said that liis re- " marks applied to the times before the ? present Mayor's term of office. Councillor Hindmarsh thought that a report should be got from tho engineer and traffic manager, so that they could j be recorded, and afterwards, if the rej. port of the outsider was obtained, some re-arrangement would have to bo made in the management. . It would therefore be a proper and fair proceeding to have the opinions in writing of these officers. ; (Hear, hear.) He thought a special meeting of the council should deal with this matter, and the responsible men be enllcd in i and examined. The dispute with the • men should also be taken over by tho council; the committee having been unable to deal with it effectively. He believed tho council had become frightened by newspaper criticism. There were cries about leakages iu the revenue, and that sort of thing, but, against that, a ; certain depression was occurring in Wel- ■ lington just now. Councillor-Smith said that it had been ' very difficult to submit all the details of the conference with the men. He thought that all possible matter should be handed over to the incoming council. It was all very well to ask the officials to submit a report oil their own work, but was it failto them to do this for the benefit of those to come and report upon them? (Hear, hear.) He preferred getting the best expert advice. Ho said nothing about tho officers, -but they wanted to see thai there was no "dead running" in the tramway system, and an independent, report would be to the interest of the city. Councillor Shirtclilfe, speaking to the amendment, said that the first thing to do was to get 'a report from their engineers— a definition of their position—and then to obtain expert advice if it was considered advisable. , The. Mayor explained the complicated nature ot the rosters and the almost total impossibility of the. council (or even the council's engineers) making an intelligible comparison between the two. Voices: How will the Brisbano man do it? Councillor ShirtclifTe thought that careful comparisons of results with other New Zealand tramway systems would show Wellington in a favourable light. He was ( !rp>ady to admit that niighp I}£ j said in regard to imnroving the traffic', , but he had every confidence in those in : charge to report upon the requirements.--, i The Mayor: You see we have to con- . sider the question as to whether a man ' should come on at 7 n.m. to work eight i hours a day and so forth. This all has to . be dealt with in an expert manner. j Please Explain. J Councillor Atkinson thought that, tho , committee should explain why tho report t was necessary. In order to get all the c information possible he had thought that j they should have gone into committee to 0 hear all the details. He felt now in the frame of mind to oppose everything. It s was a serious thing to employ experts. V A councillor: About ! Tho Mayor: "Not half that." c Councillor Hindmarsh (laughing'): And „ the greatest expert iu the world! Councillor Atkinson would vote against i! the proposal because they had been re- f fused the opportunity of setting thu in- ,j formation which they desired iu com- , mittee. Councillor Barber thought that improvement was necessary in the traffic management, but he believed that, if there had been defects, the officers should have reported , without being asked. He d was in favour of obtaining an expert, si though he had nothing against tho staff. " But he was with those councillors who j were in favour of postponing this matter b until further evidence was given. G Councillor Atkinson asked his Worship t if he could not give the information he n had alluded 10. ' j, The Mayor replied that he could not o make certain information public in con- n sideration of. (he officers of the tramways, not even if he lost. Ho did not think' that he shdiild be requested, while a conference ■ was still in existence, to make any reflection on officials—either J nien or officers. '] Councillor Fitzgerald: Why ask us to t vote upon a question wo know nothing 1 about? t The Mayor: "You asked us to deal c with this matter." ' - n At, the Mayor's suggestion tho discus- t sion wns postponed until. later in tho 1 evening. j In Committee After All. | Speaking later, the Mayor stated that 0 he intended to stick to his motion. At the he would rather have it d defeated, and the amendment carried t against him, than make any further •• public disclosure at tho present time. j Councillor Trevor urged the Mayor to " let the matter be discussed in committee. s . Councillor Frost said that bath Coun- 0 cillor Smith and himself had come to j, the conclusion that it would be well to go into committee. Information- could then bo disclosed which it would be wiso ■ to consider in camera. Original Motion Amended. q It was then agreed, upon tho voices, w that the council should go into commit- rtee. i : When the council resumed (after about 1< an hour) the Mayor said that Councillor w Fitzgerald had moved: "That a report J bo obtained from the city electrical en- G gineers upon the whole question of traffic t! and tramway management." With C'oitn- <1 cillor Fitzgerald's consent,, the speaker b would now embody this amendment in his P original motion, and move: "That a re- C port bo obtained from the electrical en- P gineers upon the whole question of traf- u fie and tramway management, and that the Mayor be empowered to ascertain P the cost ,of obtaining the services of a JJ traffic expert to inspect, and report upon, the city's tramway undertaking." d In this form tho motion was carried " on tho voices. In our advertising columns appears an ». announcement relating lo an important sale .. of rich, Hat land, at Lower Hult. The 1 saja will be conducted by Messrs. A. L. Wilson and Co. to-day at noon, at their J rooms, Brandon Street. This oilers a good i 1 opportunity for investors. "j An Auckland city building site, situ- a ated a few yards from the new To win e Hall, and said to be suitable for a d theatre, shops, or warehouse, is advertised v, to be let on a 50 years' building lea.-fc a at a low rental. Particulars may be ob- v tained from the sole agents, Arthur War- ji burton and Co., IGI Featherston- Street, r Wellington. p | Messrs. Stewart Dawson and Co., Ltd., S jewellers, of Lambton Quay, have an ad- ir vertiscinent in this day's issue of interest ( j to residents of country districts. n Overcoats is the subject of a special an- s' nouncement in this issue by Messrs. R. g 11. Scott and Co., Willis Street. £