MR. HINE'S CHARGES.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 987, 30 November 1910, Page 8

MR. HINE'S CHARGES.

DISCUSSED IN THE HOUSE. HOT SPEECHES. VIGOROUS CRITICISM BY MR. "}:}, .-■■•.; v■.;- massey. REPLY BY THE PRIME MINISTER. ••rhe debato on the report of the Hine Committee did not come on. in tho House of' Representatives' this morning until . 0.45; o'clock. . , ' 'The Premier intimated that ho might -move a resolution with reference-, to. iMr. Kaihau at a later stage. The Premier did not exercise his Irigbt'te make an opening address. '."■'. Mr.. Massey said he regretted that the 'debate had been brought on at such a late ; bour. He could only concludethat ■at _ was, brought on so late., to prevent the report'of the debate from . getting into the morning papers that '.. day./.: , .The Premier: That is incorrect. -.-. -.Mr...-Massey': I have had so much ex- ' perience of your tactics that I am en- • titled to my opinion'. ~ Proceeding, Mr. Massey said that - le -thought it would now be felt that Mr. Hine was quite justified in bringing the '.charges .forward.. The fact that the" committeo considered that legisla- '. tion'iwas necessary , was proof that wrongdoing 'had'.taken'place. Certain members'had' been becoming very lax in the matter of taking. payments in connection- with''.;. their Parliamentary ■'• duties.: ; . -. : , V ...- . . _ .. . . • Highly Improper.. . Certain of.tbo actions which had been • considered were, in his opinion, highly . improper and .quite irregular. There w.ere enormous. responsibilities in con...nection with the 1 purchase of lands by . ; ihe State. -The honour and integrity of > Parliament must'be maintained, and it would , be necessary to go much further ; than had ; been done, either by way of legislation.-or; an. amendment of the ■' Standing Orders. He did not approve of several of-the findings of the committee. .First of all he would refer to , the letter sent.by Mr. Symos to Mr. M'Cluggage. , Of. all, the findings that wasthe' most extraordinary. The committee' found that a charge of threat was not established; He felt absolutely ' certain that-99 put of overy-100 people who;had read-tho evidence would come to the conclusion that : if the "Stratford Evening News" did not support Mr. .Syines Ihe would" have . used his -■■■ position to. prevent the paper from getting Government' advertisements and ; that" if it did support him. ho would so-' "■: cure" the. Government advertisements ' for; the :paper.-; .The: letter- contained a threat, and more than that, it amounted to. a. corrupt - practice. ,Eo might - ■ Jiave been ' punished ' at the time '.if. it; had -. not-'.been for the .generosity ;.'- of his. opponents.•During ; ,the election of 1905 there were all sorts of rumours of improper practices', . and after--the-.poll the question of presenting an election petition to ento upset the result was considered. . This, particular letter was forwarded to tho' committee that was considering this matter, and Mr. H. D. Bell gave his opinion that the letter was a threat, and therefore a corrupt practice sufficient tq upset the election;and-.I prevent Mr. Symes '■ standing again. , l During tho election of 1908 Mr. Synies challenged- anyone, to produce a' tittle of evidence of that nature, and in.con- \; sequence of 'this Mr.' Hemingway read '.. the;letter.: which . had.'como into his hands..in a perfectly honourable. man;ner.' Had it not. been for tho generos..ityof Mr; Symes's opponents in-1905 '■tho-,'letter'.would,have been, used to. upset his election. ' The letter was not '.'. marked private and .confidential, and to say. it .was confidential' was coming near to a falsehood.

, ■' Conflict of Opinion,' ; ■So far as the Flaxbourne case; was there was a conflict of opin-' ; ion tatweeirMr.- Griffin and Mr. Wilson as to tho time occupied by Mr. Wilson .in-looking over, the estate. One said . two and.a half and the other five days, but taking.the;greater estimate, it was not possible to go over 'an estate of ■:■ -56,000. or 57,000 acres of rough country ■in. that: time, and. value it. If Mr. could do this'in that time, other men who took,much longer were either incompetent or they were paid for too '.'IonJT /a period. The confidential report of .Mi./ Wilson: had not been produced. ■■'Mr.' Wilson seemed. to have forgot- . iten what he ,flid. with the money lie received' 'for- his valuation. . Hs could not. imagine how Mr. .Tattle . '■earned . over £600 in connection with .."th-a. taking-of Flaxbounie. Tho finding ■of the. committee was like tho old Scottish verdict: "Not proven; don't do it • sgaiii." He went'o'n to refer'to tho NaiNai purchase." ;.It seemed to him, .;that .there .was room 'for. improvement : ;ih regard .to the. Land PurchaEe Board. '.'■■■ The hn'd .had,been :valued by a com-. . petent valuer at £S0 per acre. '■■ It was ■ bought for £150.per acre. . But now it still. lay idle. >'■■.. '■■ ■ ■'.''., "Most Interesting." 1 .;_': Asregards.TeAkau.Mr. Massey.said ..it , constituted 'one of. the most interest-' \ ing'.: incidents' in thoTwhole history of : Native; lands'.'in this country.''' More ; ; than wire-pulling had taken place to . establish .the title of, the Ngatitaha- .:-.' ngas to the block. He read the clause that was put.;in a,"Washing-up" Bill . ns \regard's[; the block! Members were ;./ led/to. believe that!the clause would ', ;,.lead to tho. .successful settlement of .".' the :blpck.' As the result of the .'setting up'of, a Nativo Land Court 13,000 acres of 'the block'were taken away .. -from the Tainuis, who : had held the ';.,..' lands for twelve years, and transferred , to the Ngatitahangas. It would be . -recalled that a leading member of the ;. : Ngatitahangas had attempted to bribe '.."' an M.P. on, the J matter. The sittings. /.' of the Court were adjourned from time to: time- to"enable the 1 matter to' be dealt with by a Court which it was in- '■■■.:■ .tended'to set up to review the deci- . 'sions' of a former Court. Then again a leading member of .'the Tainuis had stated that he was threatened by a ; Government' official that the Government would shift, the boundaries if they did not sell 'to/tho Government. ■Taking all the circumstances—petitions, clause in the Bill, etc.—it seeni- ■'. Ed to him that they went to make up one of.the most dishonest incidents he; had ever heard of in connection with tho public life of this 'country. \V: Mr.- Speaker: Your time is up. Mr. Massey: I am very sorry." :.;...■-'. Speech by the Prime Minister. ■ The Prime Minister said that the ■ urigin of tho charges was a charge of Tammanyism. Why had Mr. Hine de- . ■■. Jayed, in giving details of his charges? He had come to a deliberate conclusion ■"■'■■ since the matter was before tho committee as to-why he did not. Were any of the charges against tho present , Administration?., '.Every member. , knew ...that the reflections in these cases were .-• against tho.' late 'Mr. Secldon" and his '!■..'" Government'. ■, Tho Bayly; Estate was also sold under Mr. Seddpn's, AdminisV tration. , In'.the' , Nai Nai; case, Mr. ■i Macdonald admitted that a contmis- ' •■ siqn had been-taken, as a land agent, ' and..;jliv Hine. was ,then, asked 3 he woiild go on, and he proceeded. ■•'• Kiiniours were, being circulated through iho town, about a dead man';; In'.con--1 action with otior .chargee t . the,, man

who was responsible, for the transactions the -charges 'hinged in his grave. \ Mr. Masscy: .The speech is worthy of you. . '••• ■ Proceeding, +he Prime Minister said that lio charge had been proved against his Government. Even counsel for Mr. Hine folfc his position when lie was asked what Government was charged. If anything wrong had*.been.found in regard to tho Flaxbourne and other estates it would have been an aspersion on the head of tho Government of the day. None of his, Ministers would havo been held to blame. A New Doctrine. Mr. Herries: That is a new doctrine. ■■_..., Continuing, Sir Joseph Ward said ho had received a telegram on November 23 from Mr. Greville, district surveyor, who , said that Mr. Wilson, mado a long detailed examination of .the Flaxbourne Estate. The telegram said that Mr. Griffin was quite wrong in saying, in evidence,, that Wilson made no secret of why he was sent there. Mr. Griffin's evidence, the telegram also stated, was based on a hazy recollection. There was ■also a sworn statement by Mr. M'CalMγ. Massey: Who is Mr. M'Callum? The Hon. R. M'Kenzie: You tried to get him to stand for the Waikato next election.. . ■Mr. Masscy: That is contrary to fact. Continuing, the Prime-Minister said that there had been a continuous effort to show that the payment to Mr. Wilson was an improper one. Mr. Masscy: So it was. The Prime Minister: No it was not. Mr. Massey: Don't shelter behind a dead man. The. Prime Minister: I have never sheltered behind-a dead man. I never knew Mr. Seddon do a wrong thing. And this is, what Mr. Massey says in order to cover up a cowardly contemptible position—ono of tho meanest things . known in the history of Parliament—to make charges against the Government through a dead man. I am here to defend tho memory of a dead man.

The Prime Minister went on to say that if his advice was taken the relatives of the late Mr. Seddon would prosecute one man for a very large sum of money, and would recover it on account of tho delving that had gone on. The Leader of the Opposition had referred to Mr. Tattle as being an employee of Findlay, Dalziell and Co., kit the fact was that he had ■ ceased to bo an' employee years before the Flax- 1 bourne Estate was purchased. Such unjustifiable innuendoes should not be made. .' The letter from Mr. Symes to Mr. M'Cluggage gave liberty to use it privately with manager and directors, but.not for publication. It was forwarded to be shown privately to the editor of the Stratford "Post." When Mr. Symes asked that letters should bo read he did not know this letter was in the possession of his opponents. Sir Joseph Ward maintained that the use of this letter was quite unjustifiable. The Committee and Party. It was _ not right to make any complaint to the effect that the committee was a party committee. It acted on the evidence before it. There was no person, of any consequence who was connected with the various transactions who was not asked whether there was any wrong-doing on. the part of the Administration. The answer in each instance was clear that such was not tho case. In regard te the estates that had been compulsorily acquired tho prices claimed by tho owners. was half a' million above the amount awarded. And here ,was all this noise about' a payment of £165 which' was a perfectly rightful payment. . Why, Mr. Massey ■'had.said.that'if he was offering an estate, toy-the' Government Tie would ask thrfto. ;. ; .-..' . Mr; Massey: You 'are , ' hard up for arguments. Proceeding, the Primo Minister said it took a dozen, questions by Him to get an answer from Mr. Hino's counsel as to which !Goyernnient was concerned. And theri'the answer was. indefinite. It was true "they might, havo .got the answer from 'Mr. Hiue.": Tho Primo Minister went on to •. say. that he believed a legislator should; not use his position to obtain payments for services rendered in the course of his duties. Except in one case—and lie was sorry for Mr. Kaihaur—there was no bearing of the." kind;'■"ln- the case of Mr .-Major" he said that as a land agent he accepted a commission. In the case of Mr...Symes . he. ..said he never sold a property to the. Government. A promissory note was paid to him for 6omethin<*: The committee , was of opinion that the. payment had something to do wif-h; advancing the sale. In connection with, tho,..charging of Reople:-outside Mr. Symes's constituency for the collection, that wns a wrong thing to do. The Native Minister had . expressly, warned tho head of the Lands Department that Mr. Kaihau was not to be recochised in the purchase bf'-thb.Te Akau". Estate. Tho Government could. not be- held responsible for the private acts of members of Parliament. ■ ■••In. connection with tlio Flaxbourne Estate, it. had been.shown that 'the 'country: might easily' havo spent.£.loo.ooo xcve. tlian.it did in the purchase of the estate.. ■

An Unpleasant Duty. ■ It .would be his unpleasant duty to ask the House to agree to a resolution affecting the lion, member for the Western Maori district in connection with the' ' payments for petitions. There could bo no doubt that tho honour and dignity-'of the Houeo should bq maintained in the matter and lie was propared to do his duty and ask the House to do its duty in its turn. Sir Joseph Ward concluded a speech which was couched in excited language and delivered in 'high tones by declaring that there never liad been - anything approaching Tammanyism in connection with tho Government of this country. He had never seen anything approaching Tammanyism. What is Tammanyism? Mr. Allen (Bruce) said he intended to move an amendment to. tho effect that the House disagreo with tho findings in regard to Tβ Akau, Flaxbourne, • and the letter from Mr. Symes to Mr. M'Cluggage. Tho Prime Minister had referred to Tammanyism. Wliat was Tammanyism? Ho.believed' it was' Tammanyism for a Government, prior to an election, to promise to . expend £250,000 a year in tho back-blocks for four years, and we now know it was not expended. It was also Tammanyism ■ when, a Government ■went out of its way - to purchase a. block as was done. in the Taranaki district on the eve of an election. Then again it was Tammanyism for a Government to boycott a paper that was opposed to it and to support less reputable journals. And it was Tammanyism for members to help to pass the Lands for Settlement Act, and then to act in the capacity of commission agents in. regard to sales to the Government. Mr. Hine didnot charge them all, but ho proved them all. Who had introduced tho namo of Mr. Seddon into tho debate, and why? •No member of tho Opposition. Not Mr. Hine. Tho committee divided on tho question' that it should bo kept out. ;Thc chargo was against the Government of that day. If tho Prime Minister Had done tho right thing ho would havo stood up liko a man. "Behlmr a Dead Man." ' Ho had sheltered behind a dead man. Ho now raised the matter, scoldnf; to elicit sympathy in tho country. That is what it was dono for. It was done for political.. purposes. The charges were, never made against Mr. Seddon. If tho.. discovery of an.evil thing.in the past would tend , to raise, the publio life,.:, was': , : it' never , to.' be

brought to life because a man had passed away ? He dissented from the Premier's' doctrine that tho Prime- Minister is responsible for the actions-of all his! Ministers. That was true in ono sense. But Ministers were responsible for. tho acts and omissions of each other. It was tho Prime Minister who had put all the blame on to Mr. Seddon. It was. not the Opposition. Mr. Allen continued by declaring that Mr. Hino had been justified, and cited the resolution adopted by the convmittec. calling for legislation. If public men had not done something detrimental to tho public life of the colony, what was tho object of -this resolution, and what v.-as tho object of the resolution which the Primo Minister had said ho would movo in respect to a member of tho House? Ho was sorry Mr. Hino should havo had to make tho charge, and lie was still moro sorry that the committeo should have had to find there wero things detrimental to' our public life. Mr. Allen then proceeded to deal specifically with three charges. In, respect to the first batch of charges on which he brought down a report, tho chairman was unbiased and did his level best to bo fair, but he was not unbiased in respect to tho second batch of charges. In reporting on the Symes charge tho chairman was unbiased, but in reporting on an exactly similar charge in respect to Mr. Kaihau, tho chairman, brought down'a different report. l He maintained that the Government had something to answer in connection with advertising in the Stratford newspaper, just as it had something to answer in refusing to advertise in Tip Dominion because it was an Opposition newspaper. . When tho "Stratford Post" was established and incorporated the two existing newspapers it received no Government advertisements. It received no Government advertisements from 1904-05, though, according to ono witness, application was made for them. Then just before the election advertising was given to tho paper. The paper was gradually comin" round in its politics, and in 190S had a leaning to the Government- candidate.

Mr. Allen had something to say about the letter from tho Chief Justice to the Prime Minister, written when it was proposed that■tho charges should go before Judges of" the Supremo Court. He was not allowed to refer to the Chief Justice, he said, but he would only say there were portions of tho 'letter which, if he could, he would blot out of existence. ' ' Native Land Dealings. The letter written by Mr. Symes to Mr. M'Cluggage constituted a corrupt practice. The history of Te Akau had opened.his eyes in' regard to Native land dealings. The Court was adjourned quite a number of times on the instructions of the Native Minister. Why was it adjourned? Kaihau had lost his clause, and the Tainuis had refused to sell. Then thero was Mr. Sheridan's threat. Sir. Ngata: Mr. Sheridan denies tho threat. • . ' Mr. Allen: 1 And he says that his memory is defective on the point. Proceeding, Mr. Allen asked whether Mr , . Kaihau's. case was not stronger than that against Mr. Symes. Hβ would say that tho Government was mixed up in the matter. The Premier voted for the clause in the Bill when lie know there was something .wrong. As regards Flaxbourne, Mr. Wilson's evidence was unsatisfactory. There was no proof that the Hon. Mr. Macdonakl shared tho. £165 paid to Mr. Wilson.. All ,Mr.' Wilson 6aid wa3 that he did not know..

At this stago Mr. Speaker again. referred to the frequency of interruptions. He said, that if the interjections continued he would have to name the offenders. . .

Mr. Allen then moved his amendment to the effect that the House disagree with the findings in- the To, Akau and Flaxbourne cases, also in regard to tho letter from Mr. Symes to Mr. M'Cluggage. Mr. Fisher seconded tho amendment.' Speech by Mr. Millar. The Hon. J. A. Millar said that all that had 'resulted from tho inquiry was that possibly one man might loso his seat. Mr. Hinc had got into politics by means of a letter purloined by the Opposition party. It.was one of the ugliest episodes in tho history of tho New Zealand Parliament. If Mr. Symes's letter had contained a threat, he believed Mr. Symes would have, been unseated. The Opposition party could not to his mind lay any claim to purity. It could be' seen by the fencing of Mr. M; Myers that an attempt was being mado to charge tho Government. How then could Mr. Allen now blame the Government in regard to To Akau? After years of innuendoes against tho Government only one charge could bo formulated. There was no suspicion of Tammanyism. It was a pity tho House could not leave dead men alone. Three cases had been heard in which ho was concerned, but nothing had been proved. It was his opinion that 150 cases could be heard, and tho lato right hon. gentleman would come out unblemished. Referring to the Kaihau case, Mr, Millar maintained that tho £3000 was paid to.him as agent, and working the case- up.. Mr. Kaihau had nothing at all to do with the sale of the land. .' . • (Left Sitting.)

The dcatii occurred at his residonce, Clyde Quay, yesterday of Mr. Thomas G. Fitzgerald, late of Greymouth, aged 42 years.

The announcement is made of the most important. development associated with radium that has taken place since the discovery of that rare element. Not only, it is. stated, has radium been extracted from tho pitchblende of the Cornish mines, but : a continuous supply from that source is now absolutely assured. The discovery will have a most important influence in several ways. In view of tho value which it has been amply demonstrated radium possessea as a curative force, medical lesearch in many directions is being seriously handicapped, owing to the present scarcity, of the element. For the last eighteen months work has been carried on in tho Trenwith section of the St. Ives Consolidated Mines (Limited), where pitchblende jis being produced regularly in great quantities. Tho work of extraction and purification is being carried on in England by a continuous process at the subsidiary company's new factory at Limehouse, E., with good results.

In St. Paul's Cathedral Earl Roberts lias unveiled. a memorial tablet to Lieut.-Colonel Sir William Hutt Curzon Wyllie, who was assassinated on July 1, 1909, by an Indian fanatic in London, A feature of tho ceremony was tho precaution taken to render impossible a repetition of tho sceno at tho Imperial Institute when Sir William met his death. A large staff of the City police were on duty outsido tho Cathedral, and they closely scrutinised not only the tickets of those who wished to attend the service, but also tho names which wore written on the tickets.- Insido tho Cathedral and in tho crypt itself -uniform and plainclothes officers formed quito a largo proportion of tho gathering.

A remarkable catch of mullet was made nt Grent Western Docks, Plymouth, England. Tho officials were surprised to see tho water, in the graving dock teem-ing-with grey mullot of exceptional size. Tho dock was pumped dry, and when tho fish were collected they weighed four and a half tons. '