THE GAMING BILL.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 984, 26 November 1910, Page 8

THE GAMING BILL.

FURTHER DEBATE IN THE HOUSE. THE BOOKMAKER. STRONG SPEECH BY MR, MILL4R. BIS 'VIEWS REPUDIATED BY THE t[i ' .:'■ PREMIER. The final.debate , on tho Gaming Bill ia-.tlie House of JR-eprescntatives yesterday, presented a number of interesting,-! if not extraordinary, features. 'It' will be.remembered that tho House disagreed with the'amendments made .by tho Legislative Council in tho Bill, and a-conference between managers appointed by , tho two :Chambers took place.' At-tho confereiieo an agreement was arrived* at .which 'was subsequently endorsed by the Legislative Council. : -When the Prime , asked the House to'.adopt .the report yesterday .afternoon, an amendment moved by Mr. T. "'E. : Taylor'. (Christchurch North) led tb : a'Mibato and; a division which were equally singular. - : : •-■ ' ■ -..The singular ..feature of the' debate was' an , outspoken and heated speech by. tho Minister for Railways (the Hon. J.. A. Millar), who has consistently ■been opposed to this .measure. So, diametrically,opposed aro Mr..Millar's views to the views of .Cabinet, generally, on "this question that the Prime Minister found himself obliged [to repudiate them, and inform tho House that Mr. Millar was expounding, not the policy of tho Government, .but giving expression to a new merely personal.... The singular feature of tho division was that the most extreme : and aggressive opponents of both tho bookmaker and tho totalisator'and .the,friends of thp bookmaker were- found in tho' same, lobby supporting, aii amendment which tho House was informed by the Prime. Minister might deal a death-blow to the Bill. "You Had Bettor Hang Him.", In moving that ; tho report of the managers who'. represented tho" Houso. at the conference be'agreed . to,;' tho Primo Minister explained tlio .basis, of J the .agreement which, had already been accepted.by tho Upper House. ..While Sir Joseph Ward was explaining tho all-embracing natiiro of the ' provisions aimed against ..the .bookmaker, Mr.Glover iutcrjected .pathetically: "You 1 had better hang him and have done with it." . '.-.' : ','. .-■■ '.. Sir Joseph'.Ward recalled tho largo majority by. which tho House had,condemned tho bookmaker. ■ ■■■■~ -... Mr. Glover :;Tllat is not tho will of the people. . - .: . . • — : 'Sir Joseph Ward informed the House that it would not bo.wise to insist upon :the, provision that in. issuing licenses preference should bs given to country clubs! ■ There could be no doubt there iras'. a- desiro to kill, the Bill on .■■ the part of some, but: not on the part of '■ the Government. ... / A ;■; ■ -: Members: Oh! phi '.., V ' .Sir Joseph Ward: .1 know what. I am. talking ■ about, '• and ■if members get side-tracked tho responsibility is theirs. . Mr. T..:. E. , Taylor . (Christchurch North) I took , exception to Subclauso 2 of' Clause 6: "Not more than eight races shall he, run on any oue day at any race meeting;" Ho moved that the,!. House disagree with the alterain. this-subclause. ' Mr;--. 'Herries ;>> (Tauranga) raised .: a point of order whether, in the event of. tile House, not agreeing with' the amendments, \it would not be necessary to hold another conference. Sir Joseph Ward , ' asked if the Hoiise disagreed: with the alterations onado would it not mean, losing thei Bill,' in view of'tho fact that another place had already, agreedtothe report , of the. conference. . .".-.-■ ' The Speaker said he presumed it wa'sopen 1 , to 'another'place to. rescind its ■ resolution. . .-...- .-■ Sir Joseph Ward: And if they refuse to agree. ,, '. •"'■.- ■.-'".' .The Speaker: The Bill is lost. The Number of Races. Mr.-; Taylor 'ultimately : obtained the ruling of -, the; Speaker that •he could move that 'the. subclause be.disagreed, with, and moved accordingly., In doing so, he said the number of races-that could be run in one day had been raised' from seven to, eight," in the interests of the "tote." '.If he. had,been at the conference,, he. : would have seen the managers of tho other, place to Hong Kong before he .would have agreed 1 to this amendment. Tho Bill.had got into the grip of a few wealthy: racehorseowners, who had twisted it,.and, with the exception that:the number of race days was reduced, they" had. succeeded in converting the' increase to their own purposes. ■_; There were, two- or three ■ men in- each Chamber sufficiently pow- . erf ul -to defy tho democracy, so far 1 as racing legislation was concerned., Hβ ■ felt-.convinced the- ; bookrnake'r'was -not abolished by this Bill. ; He was perfect,ly ;free to carry on in "tote" clubs. Who 'could -stop, him? (Mr. Lawry: No one.). If he chose , to take, a. shop in Wellington,'' arid .'furnish it, and make .it his homo, there was nothing to stop him. He"was told that- the old Act covered this, but he doubted it. Why 'was;not the, word,-."premises" kept in? He. was sure tho'bookmaker" was. not killed, by this. Bill. Personally, he re : garded tho. evils of the .bookmaker, as being subsidiary to the evils, of . tho. tote. The tote had quadrupled the number of people who bet. Comparatively few womep, girls, and boys bet- , ted before the machine came. Ho should not be concerned if tho Bill went by default, this session. If so the views of the people : would : be so distinctly shown .during the next few.-months, that a ■Bill would bo passed, which, would do what': this. Bill was only, pretending to do'; " Mr.". Taylor, concluded by " saying that; a , .referendum , should be taken." ', "Who seconds?" called the Speaker. "I do," said Mr. Glover, amid laugh"ter. .'■■•■ ■ ■ ' • ~-■•■..-■-,■■. .■ Mr. Massey,' Leader of the Opposition, eaid.be did not agreo with the member for Christchurch North. If ■it were simply a question as between seven ...races a day and eight, ho would, vote for seven every time. , .. The point, however, was that if the amendment was carried, and the Upper House refused.to go back on its former resolution (and-he did not think it would go back), the Bill was as dead as Julius Caesar. , There wero clauses in the Bill that did not. satisfy him, but there wero many.good things in it, and he wanted ■ them passed into law. He was prepared to swallow the lot to have the provision for the compulsory licensing of the bookmaker done'away with. If the Bill did not outlaw tho bookmaker (and he was sorry it did not), the House could go the whole length next time. . ... ■' ~-.■■.. "A Funny Thing." The Hon. J. A. Millar said he could quite anticipate the lion, gentleman Bpeaking like that. It was a funny thing if tho House was going to allow tho : Council.to dictato to it: That was the argument. , ■, Mr. Massey: Do you want to kill tho Bill? • Tho Hon. J. A. Millar: "I do not agree with the Bill, and I will tell you my reasons now. I want a different clause." Mr. Millar said he always thought, that doinocracy preserved the rights oi the people against the privileges of the.few, but this Bill was tak- ■ ing-away the rights of. the many for tho privileges of the few. It contained a-new.'principle, which had not been adopted in any country. It made it absolutely illegal to Bet except through ' the machine.

Mr. Massey: That is not so. 'Mr. -Millar said that in the Bill the term betting and bet included "the act of any person in betting, wagering, offering, or agreeing to bet or wager, paying, receiving,, or settling any bet or wager, or offering or agreeing • to pay, receive, or settle any bet or wager, whether on his own behalf or on behalf of any other person." In the principal Act,'where betting was carried on was declared a gaming-house. ' Any bet at all was neither to be settled nor made, by any person. Ho would never agree to a principle that would deny a man the, right to do what-ho liked in his home. -What was the Legislature, going to stop? ho asked. Next week they.would bo bringing in a measure to stop'dominoes; racing, and card-playing. Moro money passed in ■ card-playing than ever went through tho totalisator. He. was sorry such a principle should have been adopted in the Bill. The Bill wa:ivsimply in tho interests of racing clubs. Everybody know that tho public were .going to bo forced to co'ntribut'oto rich men. A member': The Bill does not prevent a bookmaker going on the racecourse. Mr. Millar: "You. maintain about ten owners' who have taken the whole of the stako money provided by tho machine. Thoro is neither logta nor principle in it." _ The provision for eight races was neither more nor less than a provision in favour of. the'tote. Ho had never been against the tote, but after this ho would chango his views. He found that honest, straightforward men-were, going to bo branded as criin'irials because ; thoy enjoyed, their own money in their own way. Hewould like to see the country given a chance' of pronouncing on" tho question. Tho Bill ought to, stand over and go beforothe country, and' then' probably 'both tho. bookmaker and tho totalisator would go- . V Statement by tha Primo Minister. 1 "Mr. Millar is expressing his personal ' opinion. On this matter he is not in any way expressing tho opinion of the Government," exclaimed Sir Joseph Ward, rising to his feet when Air. Millar.had.finished. - . , .. Mr. Millar: They are my. own views. "The Government.has no intention of allowing tho Bill to stand over," tho Prime Minister assured tho House, and he expressed the opinion that the. House ought' to allow the . legislation' to go .through this session. Tho chances, ho said, were a thousand to one , Members:'"No, you' must, not bet." The House laughed heartily, while Mr. T. M. Wilford .pointed a • deprecating finger at tho Prime MinisteV. "I understand the momber l for Christchurch North has accepted tho bet," said the Prime Minister when , ' the House recovered itself. . Sir-■ Joseph Ward said . the managers of the other place refused to give. way.on.this point, and they were no doubt expressing the views-of their Chamber. If this amendment was carried,/ arid ' the Upper 'House did not agree to : it, the Bill was lost. By-taking that-course the House would conform to the desires of those who wished to-kill tho Bill., That was the position, and it was as well the Houso a,nd country 'should understand t. Ho denied, that ho was .working tho Bill. in. the interests of rich men. There were , some who ■ affirmed that compromise \ was undesirable, but what advanced piece of legislation affecting a matter on .which, there was a strong difference of opinion had been carried but: on a basis of compromise. The Bill contained many very, desirable re- . forms. : There was a great reduction in the number of days of racing, and the number of race meetings, and tliero were provisions against : street-betting and against'the bookmaker being able to : go, Oμ the racecourse/and bet... It was suggested all this should be'thrown away to endeavour to gain one point. There was a reduction of. 350 to ,300 in .tho-number' of days, of .racing. Reto tho .|deniand, that preference should--,-be sliownl'tjo,'country clubs in issuing licenses, the Prime Minister said tho country clubs should have justice dono.to them, but he assured the House that if it wanted to stop legislation going on tho Statute-book it 'had, only/ to- stick, to'the amendment it madoibofore. It should.bo the. duty, of the commissioners allocating tho 'licenses to see that justice was done to tho country clubs. Mr. Colyin: Will you see that the commissioners are properly appointed to represent the country clubs? Sir. Joseph Ward said ..surely the Government could be trusted to do that. (Hear, hear.) V Hβ". wanted to make it perfectly ; olear that -the' Government wanted .this legislation placed on the ' Statute-bock". The House wanted the Bill, and the country wanted it,-and if : lion, .members, arrested its progress by. 'lighting for shadows when they had the substance, tho responsibility would bo theirs/ The feeling on this questionhad been very strong, and if it had been less members could have approached, tho matter under calmer conditions. _ Mr. Poland (Ohinemuri) said he was not so much interested in the amendment proposed by tho member for' Christehurch ' North as ho, was in an amendment made by tho managers tho House: was unfortunate enough to appoint. .-■■'■• -" Sir Joseph Ward-objected to this expression, as being a : gross reflection, and in-very-bad taste.. ' . ,■.",-'. Mr. Poland said he meant the choice of managers was ■ unfortunate in respect, that' they had all voted against the. proposal .that small.clubs should have, preference in the allocation of licenses. ' '. ,"_ "';■ Mr. C. II: Poolo (Auckland West) said he" would vote against the amendment, in order to prescrvo tho Bill.' 'Mr Laurenson (Lyttelton) said ho thoroughly agreed with Mr. /Taylor's contention, but the advances ,of the Bill woro so great, that ho would not risk them.'. r "Not Pontic to imperil the Bill." Mr.'Russell (Avon), agreed it would not be politic to imperil the Bill. Mr. D. M'Laren • said that, taking both branches of the Legislature, 64 votes had been cast for tho seven-races .a day, and 32 for eight races. 'Had it 'been early in the session, he would have fought/the point, but now it was wise .to/tako the-..measure, of reform which could be taken at tho moment. Mr. J\ Mr'B"." Tislier" considered it unfortunate that a, three-to-ono vote in tho House should be sacrificed to a Chamber' which" was "primarily a ' revising-Chamber, and not, as it had become of. late years,' an initiating one: Tho'House had ■ determined that nobody could-make a bet with a reputabkv bookmaker. If a-thousand people took £5000 to' a racecourse for a day's betting, the machine would havo £4000 of it at the end of the day; No wonder the racehorso owners "put up. a big fight for the machine. Onb' owner had won ' £70,000 in stakes' in ten years, while'two others shared £140,000 during three years. . : Mr. J. P. Luko stated that ho would rathor be kicked out of Parliament than agree to tho assertion of tho privileges' of. tho Upper House" against thoseof tho.. .'people's representatives. Ho would support amendment oven if tho Bill was killed; ■'■-.'. Dr. Buck Marvels. Dr. Buck (Northern Maori member) said ho marvelled at the inconsistency of .many ; European, members when it caino to a question of moral reform. Ho could not distinguish between the totalisator and tho bookmaker, bocauso' each was. a form of gambling. As tho amendment would Toduco the opportunities of gambling, ho would support it, Messrs. Stallworthy (Kaipara), D.ivcy (Christchurch Bast), Jennings (Taumarunui); and Hogg (Mastcrton) also spoke. Tho amendment moved by Mr. Taylor was lost by 52 votes to 13. The voting was as follows:— For the _ amendment (18): Clark, Colviru Eisherj Glover, Greenelade,

Hall, Jennings, Kaihau, Lawry, Luke, Malcolm, Millar, Myers, Poland, llaligihiroa, Boss, T. E. Taylor, Wright. Against tho amendment (52): Allen, Anderson, Arnold, Bollard, Buchanan, Bucklo, Buick, Buxton, Carroll, Craipic, Davey, T. Duncan, J. Duncan, Ell, Field, Forbes, Fraser, Graham, Gnthrie, Hanan, Hardy, Herdnian, Hcrrics, Ilinp, Hogg, Lang, Laurenson, -Maedonald, B. M'Kenzio, • T. Mackenzie, M'Larcn, Mcuider,; Newman, Ngata, Nosworthy, Oltcy,' Parata, Pearcc, Phillipps, Poole.'Bccd, Russell, Scott, Scddon,- .Sidey, Smith, Stalhvorthy, E. H. Taylor, J. C. Thomson, Ward, Wilford, Witty. ; Another Amendment. Mr. Poland then moved that the Houso' disagree, with tho amendment rnado by tho Council in Clause 5, striking out the .provision which gave preferential treatment to totalisator clubs which . have, only one- ! permit. Mr. Poland said ■ tho arrangement mado did not do justico to such clubs, and two hundred would bo penalised if the arrangement was, carried out. Ho urged tho necessity of a conference on the subject, and ho contended that tho views of the House, as representing.tho public, should have- more weHit - with the Government than the views of tho Legislative Council, which was a nonelcetivo body. Mr. E. H.. Clark . (Port Chalmers) said tlio conference had cut out tho very body- and soul of the Bill, as far as country clubs were concerned. Mr. Fraser. (Wakatipu) stressed tho ■ need of leaving the commission unfettered in tho oxerciso of its duties'. One of tho principal duties .of. tho 'commission would be the arranging of the amalgamation of country clubs. Mr. Wright (Wellington. South) complained that tho Government had "been instrumental iu havins this clause deleted. ■ ..■-.• Sir Josoph Ward:'No, the' Govornmont voted against it being' amended. Later, Sir Joseph Ward pointed - out that tlio ,work of'tho commission applied to ono. year only-,, and if it was unjust the House -would insist on reform, because the Minister for Internal Affairs had the power to withhold all permits whatever. . Mr. E. H. Taylor (Thames) said that as a young member of tho House, tho debate was a surprise to him. It was n proof of tho need and tho certainty of tho abolition' of. tho totalisator. Ho suggested that on the commission that will allocate tho licenses should be included tho Revs! Gibb and North, and Mr. Wright. These gentlemen would havo no bias as between city and country clubs. . . , Dr. To said that country racing was cleaner than city racing. There were not so many spielers at country, as at city meetings.. Any permits given to growing . centres .should be taken from the metropolitan. On a division, Mr. Poland's amendment was' rejected .by .49 votes to -20, ■and tho motion that tho report'' be agreed to was carried. A message-to that effect was sent to the Council. . Tho voting was as follows: — For tho amendment (20).—Allen, Buchanan, Clark, Colvin, Dillon, Dive, Field, Glover, Greeuslade, Hall, Hogan, Hogg, Kaihau, Lawry, Luko, Malcolm, Millar, Parata, Poland, Rangihiroa. . Against the amendment (49). —Anderson; Arnold, Bollard, Buddo, Buick, Buxton, Carroll, Craigie, Davey, J. Duncan, Ell, Fisher, Forbes, Fraser, Graham, Guthrie, Hordrnan, Hardy, Herries, Hinc, Lang, Laurenson, Macdonald, Hon. T. Mackenzie, M'Laron, Mandeiy Massey, Myers, Newman, Ngata, Nosworthy, Okey, Pearce, Pliillipps', Poole, Reed, Ross, Russell, Scott, Sidey, Smith, Stallworthy, Steward, E. H. Taylor, T. E. Taylor, Ward, ,Wilford, Witty, Wright. • •