CABINET-VERSOS PARUAIENT

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 978, 19 November 1910, Page 6

CABINET-VERSOS PARUAIENT

WHO IS MASTER? ; BTORIY DEBATE IN THE HOUSE. ' —: •, REBELLIOUS; MINISTERIALISTS. .f LAND; SETTLEMENT FINAMCE .BILL ANOTHER" 'MINISTERIAL'-OUIB-DOWH

; Taere were some stormy passages in . . Jho.House of Representatives yesterday 3ver a decision.by the Government not •to proceed with the ■ Land . Settlement Finance Bill. It will be remembered that when the Bill was before the House a clause was inserted to the : . effect- that no one should be allowed to hold more than one alloiriient of an- | estato , acquired under 1 the measure. (When the Bill went to the Tipper House . this clause was, however, struck out. By a small margin the' House then decided not to agree to the amendment. Yesterday the Prime Minister moved to ! strike the Bill off the . Order Paper. "Unwept, Unhonoured, and Unsung." s±r. Massey said, that he hoped some land; legislation would be passed this ; session. The Laud : Bill'had gone out unwept, unhonoured, and unsung. May '. it rest in peace! Nobody would regret' ; its loss. The Land Setlement Finance Bill was a differeht.measure altogether. ; Ho did not want to see the Bill drop- . ped.. : TVhat had happened was this : 'When the Bill was before the Housb a . clause had been-inserted to prevent aggregation-of .the allotments. Tho ' Legislative. Council had struck out the clause. " .Upon. th'o return .of the Bill to the House, this..amendment by the Council'wis disagreed with." Then the Prime Minister had moved,the! adjournment of the debate.. It .would have been | better .to.have accepted the,amendment and asked.'for. a conferenco with man- ! agers from the/Legislative Council. ...

Mr.' Forbes*. (Hurunui) said that if the session broke; up without the passing of provisions to further land settlement: there would be great discontent' throughout the whole country. • Mr. . Hall (Waipawa) thought that Parliamentshould" introduce. tho. system of . arbitration in regard to tho. ac-, : quisition of estates. '... •Sir William ' Steward •' (Waitaki) was of opinion that-if. a ,-conference were held the. Land Settlement Finance Bill would be saved. ■ ; Mr. ■ Anderson (Mataura) denied that; the Opposition supported tho retention of the clause for party purposes. He had - always opposed allowing, tion in.-tiie. case of . land for settlement, lands.";' ' Mr. Hogg (Masterton) said that, tlio Government members who favoured tlie clauso voted on 'principle, arid ..he .thought would do. so again irrespective of consequences. / Mr. Laurenson (Lytteltou) said that ~the fact that; the Opposition supported ithe clause.. .was -a " decision, thai) were opposed to land aggregation. ■.The Hon. T. Y., Duncan (Oamaru); in rth'e course of a reference to Mr. Hogg's !remarks,' ;said that :; tlie member for. •Masterton had apparently not been, able or . manly enough to get'a freehold for himself. ' ■ ; Mr.; Hogg:. I have had plenty' of opportunities, but, I am not a land grabber.

Mr. Okey (Taranaki)' said that . he, too, had l'-oted for the. clause because be was against reaggregation. ■' ■■ ' Sir Joseph' Ward: It was a party matter. ; _; "' Mr. Okey: Why, Mr. Bollard voted with the Government. • Sir Joseph Ward:. Ask him what was said to him. Mr.' Stallworthy (Kaipara) said there was no doubt the Opposition made the question 1 : one. of party,. "Another Government Defeat." . The Hon. T. Mackenzie:. And •■ they then ; shouted "Another • Government defeat.". , • ■! .. Mr. Ma'ssoy: You are a nice Government' supporter. ' : Proceeding, Mr. Stallworthy. said that he always voted-from conviction. No Minister ever approached him. Mr. Massey: It is not necessary. (Laughter.) ■■■.■■■ Mr. Bollard (Eden) denied that he had been reproached in connection with his vote. Sir Joseph Ward: Do you say that you wore not approached . after the division in. regard .to'-.'your vote? ' Mr. Bollard: You are misinformed. Mr: Massey: Will you accept that? Sir Joseph Ward: Yes. Mr. Bollard: No one in this House dare. reproach mo in regard to any ,of my votes. (Hear, hears.) Mr. Allen (Bruce) said the -Government party would be "happier if there was a policy to which its members could 'stick. 1 ' . Mr. Ell : Your policy is to resist everything. : . Mr. Altai: Why this Bill has got this far withtSe assistance . of' the. Opposition. Proceeding, Mr.'Allen said that he sympathised with the Kaipara electorate. Mr. _T. E. -Taylor. (Christcliurch North) said that tho Prime ■ Minister should postpone consideration of the. land question till next, session; whenit should bring down a democratic measure. Mr. Russell (Avon) said that he would like to know how long the Opposition bad been in favour of ' stopping . reaggregation. - Mr. Allen: For a large number of years. : , .. Mr. T. E. Taylor: It is a piece of pure hypocrisy. • . ' Tlie chairman insisted that tho remark" should bo'withdrawn. Adjournment Movod.

Mr.; Russell'then moved, an amendment -to the'effect that the debate be adjourned.' ..

Mr.: Massey suggested that tlio Premier and" Mr. Russell had had a consultation on the subject. Tho only ceason'-which had been given, by tlio mover "was that an opportunity, should be given members ' of • the Opposition to look up their, speeches on the question of reaggreijation. He had'always been opposed' to rcaggregation, and in favour of security.of tenure.- It was strange that Mr. Russell should take it upon himself to lecture anybody. If there was one ; inconsistent member in the House it was Mr. Russell. Mr. Russell: I will handlo you without the gloves nest time. . Mr'. Massey;! I hope you will keep your; temper.- ■ Mr. Russell: You are very courageous when'ray mouth is shut. ' ■ Tlio Premier said.that he was opposed to an adjournment of tho debate. The unanimity of the Opposition on .any questiDii was : extraordinary. , lliev voted together, ■ smiled together, and ''»uf:hecl together.

mark, which appeared to bo to the ;ffcct that he did not care if Mr. Ross ivent and hanged ' himself. (Much laughter.) Mr. Ross said that somo members apparently did' not liko having to tako their gruel. It was in their own interest ho was malting those remarks. Mr. Macdonald (junior Whip): They iro not so disrespectful. Mr. Ross replied that beforo ho ivoitld accept tho position of junior Whip for any party .lie .would havo to iavo a. lower temperature... Tho man ,vho declined to tako a tied position .vas free to, express his own opinions. Mr. Hardy. It is a very honourable service. "Most Contemptible."The Hoii. R. M'Kenzie said tfiat ho lad never beforo listened to such a ;irade of abuse in the House. Hie attack made by Mr. Ross on the Leader of tho Government in tho Legisative Council was 0110 of tho worst and nost contemptiblo' that ho had ever mown. The Sneaker : The words attack and :ontemptible must be withdrawn. Mr. M'Kenzio said ho would witlilraw, but ho would still hold his own ipinions. The Speaker then, amid some noise, nsisted. on a fyll withdrawal, which ras given. Mr. M'Kenzio, pointing to where Mr. toss and Mr.' Poland were sitting: 'hero is an attempt over in that corner 0 prevent me from speaking. Continuing, Mr. M'Kenzio asked if ho Ministers had ever asked Mr. Ross or advice or a vote. Mi'. Ross was ioating between two parties, just as he was beforo the last election, when he lad to be carried in on the backs of the viberal party. The Ministry did not are two straws which way he voted, le was very egotistical if ho thought hat the Ministers would consult him 11 .any point. Mr. Poland: Why didn't you help to mend the clause? , Mr. M'Kenzie: You, too, are trying o'run with. the hares and-bunt with he hounds. If you are not careful, ou will both fall between the two tools. Proceeding, Mr. M'Kenzie aid that Mr. Poland had got tho lauses back with tho assistance of tho (pposition. They would all find that hey would bo hoist with their own ietard. Tho Opposition would havo to ttko their share of responsibility for the 1 ill being dropped.. "Misled and Misguided." Did Mr. Ross imagino for one moaent that the Government were depeniont upon him for a.'vote at any time? 'o think that would surprise him (Mr. I'Kenzie) very much. He knew how ar to . trust Mr. Ross, and that was iot farther than he could pitch him. Laughter.) The Prime Minister had xplained the reason for this clauso iot going in, but that' had not the lightest effect on those gentlomen who .•ore objecting. The members for Ohineauri and Pahiatua could get their own' iwyer. They were both fairly good ■usii lawyers, and they could form their wn clause in their own 'way, and givs , lead to the Parliament ot this coiinry what legislation it should pass. Ho ras-afraid, however, that they were a jng way from that at the present time, n the meantime tlier were only being lado use of to a large extent by the ;entlemen on tho other side. He was urprised that Mr. Ross should allow imself to be misled and misguided in his way. His statement that members f the Upper House had got there by evious ways and were/unfit to guido he policy of this country— ■ Mr. Poland here jumped to his feet.' 'Point of order,"- ho cried. "I did not se tho word unfit at all. If the Hon. he Minister cannot quote ma correctly | would advise him ; to go. on with tho | iill and leave me alone . The Hon. Mr. M'Kenzie: I took tho rards down, but of course if the lion, acmber denies it I'll withdraw . that /ord and substitute another one. By fhat authority does he accuse those' len of evil motives ? Does he cast any eflection upon the honour and upright.ess of the men who put them there? A Novel Complaint. Mr. Poland again rose to a point of rder. 'He said the Minister was makag a sort of a personal attack on him. lo would ask him in fairness to speak a some intelligiblo language so that lie ould follow, him. "1 cannot possibly ollow the language he is using," addd Mr. Poland. His . voice is much worse han his writing. (Laughter.) The Hon. It. M'Kenzie: You don!t ike it, I know. • ■ Mr. Speaker: I don't think there is ,ny point of order in that. Mr. Poland: It is a matter of imortance to mo. - Tho Hon. R. M'Kenzio (continuag) asked by what authority lr. Poland accused- ! these men f having been apopinted to he Upper- House by . devious ways. Vho did' ho accuse ? What motives did ie adcuso them of ? Ho would be as nuin as a mouse.if Dr. Fiudlay were in hat Houso.' Mr. Poland: You are a tetter man han Dr. Findlay. Mr. R. M'Kenzie: I am as good-as 'ou two put together, indicating ilessrs. Poland and Ross. (Laughter.) Jntil I. came across two such membere is tho. members for Pahiatua and )hinemuri I thought wo could do.withlut a second Chamber, but now I have lad to cbangb my view's. ; I think it rould bo possible to modify the Legisativo Council or do without it alto;ether if such men as these wero not eturned. What assistance did they ;et from members liko Mr. Ross? None it all. Ho was 110, friend whatever of iho small settler. He knew the hon. ;entleman and his views on tho land (uestion. Did they dispute the right of .he Legislative Council to amend legisation? It was impossible, after tho Violent attacks made, upon tho. Loader n another- place to let tho matter, go vithout saying something against theso ion. members. Dragging Down* Politics. 1 Mr. Hogan (Wanganui) said he iad a few words to say in regard to tho Prime Minister's proposal to kill tho Bill. He Was 7cry sorry that tho Prime Minister had iaken up that attitude. Ho believed ;hat tho Legislative Council had altered ;ho Bill far too much altogether. The Bill was mutilated to a great extent; He confessed with a great deal of reyet that tho Opposition members did seem to watch for any occasion to vote igainst the Government when any few membors on tho, Government side seemed to think all amendment should bo mado ill Bills. (Hear, hear.) It was not a question of principle with them: it was a question of defeating tho Government, and then it was'telegraphed from one end of tho Dominion to the other that a Government reverso had taken placo. ■ Mr. Massey: Hence theso tears 1 (Laughter.) Mr, Hoga:>: There are no tears at all about it. He regretted that tho Leader of tho Opposition and his party were dragging down tho politics of the country. (Government "hear, hears," and Opposition laughter.) What has taken place this afternoon has been nothing but a party wrangle. Mr. Massey: You havo had it all to yourself. Mr. Hogan objected to theso attempts to blacken tho fame of tho Government m the eyes of tho people. Ho intended to resent- that in tho fnture. (Opposition.laughter.) Tho Leader of the Opposition would get a party in Parliament more opposed to him and his party tlian any lie had yet. bad in this country. (Laughter from Mr. Massey.) That' would bo a- party that would fight- him tooth and nail. There would bo no compromise in any way. Mr., Massey: Don't look so fierce. (Laughter.),

Mr. Fisher: Oh. get ou with tlio ■ business. You ought to set tlio House I l better example. - '.(Hear, hear.) The amendment was rejected on the I'oices. Mr, Poland, Astounded. Mr. Poland (Ohinemuri) said that the ibject of tlio House in carrying the . dauso was that a conference should : 1)6 held between representatives ■ )f botli sides. . He was astounded at ! ;lie action"; of:, the Premier. . The priu- • :iple of 'the 'clause' was unanswerable. 1 [t was. not one of leasehold or freehold, ' lut of settling as many people on the and as possible. If the clause was 1 lot a workable one, the law drarightsnan. should make it one. It was no ' lart of the Legislative Council to dic;ate the policy of tlio Government. To I lim it was a sad spectacle for the Min- 1 sters who were running the country— ! md supporting what was alleged to be a 1 -liberal land. policy—asking the House ' ;o. agree to amendments made by gen- : lemon n'ho were in no sense of the ! triii representatives of tho people. 1 These gentlemen had got x into Parlia- ■ rent'by various roads. .. A member: Devious ways! In. conclusion, Mr. Poland said that he vould always vote that the Lower, ; -louse should rule, and. not tho Upper j louse. • ■ ■ • ■ • Mr. Ross - (Pahiatua) said- that lie ; vould like to - tell the party iii power ■hat Liberalism'does not;thrive-on tralitiou. As .far as ho could see the iresent party in. power had .been, livng .on the. traditions of- the past for luite a number of years. . Prior, to , loming to. tho. House .he, bad gloried • n tho policy of the Liberal party, and lid his 'best to propagate its. doc- : lines. But what did he find to-day? : L'hero were some Liberals, who wero , irepared. to absolutely, depart from anyhing tha!t ono might be prepared to ' :oncede were Liberal principles. What . ras happening ' was tantamount to • rjmsfcr of the whole",of the power : hat was placed in the hands of the epresent-atives of the people to one ; oari:in the Legislative Council. If that ! Fero to be the position, he would tell ; hem,,plainly that;ho,\rojild not give ; hem a single vote to help them in ( loing what they were trying to _ do , hat afternoon. One of tlio. cardinal . eatures of the Liberal policy was to irevent the aggregation of estates. Yet ho leader of the party, was asking . hem to agree to something different . t tho suggestion; of'a gentleman who ras not elected by'the. people, and to . rhom -members were; in np 'way responible 'for "what" he and' those■ associated ritli him had' done." .He "proposed to •ote against any proposal in that direcion; > If clause were unworkable, t should be . made workable.. As re;ards the Crown. Law Office, one mem- . ler was getting £1000 per .annum,- but te did not'.knovr'how.much .the rest rere gettmg to give legal advice to be .Government.i : .Mrl- Hanan: Who drafted the clause? . Mr. ...Ross: ;.I.t .\vas"drafted by' Mr. Miffej- who is recognised as an able ixponerit of the. law, i>and-, a man who las "always .helped; ' members in their [ifficulties. (Hear; hear.) , Proceeding; Mr. Ross .said that it pas-' strange that the clause 'should be leclared unworkable in. tlio LegislativeThis would bo done as the esult of an opinion of a gentleman rho was drawing £1000 and had a seat in the State Advances Board. The •ime .'had.;arrived when both parties hould combine, and'tell- tho Governuent, that, if they wero' going to be un by tho Crown Law Office, or any itlier Department, they, as members, rould decline to' assist tbem in carrytig Out the idea. Ho sometimes felt sorry or tho Prime Minister in that he held ;ho position of Minister for-Lands. If Sir Joseph Ward-knew, as much .about ands as he did about finance arid comriercial matters, ho would not fall into :he trap into'which he'was being led >y certain persons, who gave him . legal idvice. ■ He hoped that before another ;ession they would have a Minister for jands who was litions existing, and with tho sentihents; and requirements of tho peoplo, md would insist on a definite land wlicy, irrespective, of what certain per:,ons in another Chamber might suggest, [hero was one cardinal feature in re;ard to the land policy, that the settlers ihould he allowed an opportunity to iecuro to them'selves tlio full value for dieir - iridustry. If . tho .Government 'ailed to agree to that sentiment, they vero likely to go to the; wall. The Hon. R. M'Kenzioi'They would iave been there long ago if your vote ;ould have done it. "Most Amusing Spectacle.". Turning towards tho Minister, Mr. Ross went on to say that one of the nost amusing spectacles - in this "House ivas the attitude of the Hon. R. M'Kensie, erstwhilo member for Buller. AVhen be (Mr. Ross) camo into the House five years ago, ho was a quiet and unsophisticated youth, and inclined to come round at the crack of the party whip. The man he. found jeering at . him and saying to him, "Aren't-you a Highlanler, Ross." '.'Surely you have some Celtic blood in. you," was tho Hon. It. M'Konzie. (Laughter.) Mr. M'Kcnzie: Tliat is a deliberate misrepresentation. I will be on your tracks presently. _ Mr. Ross (continuing) said that another thing that amused him was tho way :, in. which tho Hon. ; R. M'Kenzie, who was reearded by somo as tho father of the Standing Orders, violated them, and suggested to tlioso who wero not -as old as himself, that he was an authority. ■ ■ Mr.. M'Kenzio raised tho ■ point that Mr. Ross was out of order in inferring that tlio Speaker allowed'him to break tho Standing. Orders.. . . . Mr. Ross: I can't imasino that you should think that you have sufficient strength to do that. Continuing, Mr. Ross said it would appear that there were some members who wero prepared to go back on their principles. Ho was not prepared to depart from tlio policy wliifch ho supported upon his election. Mr. Dillon (Hawke's Bay): Oh, let us get on with tho business.. Mr. Ross, pointing to Mr. Dillon, said that there was another amusing instance in the House. Sir. Dillon, he said, was the owner of -'thousands of acres in Hawke's Bay. In fact, ho was known as tho "Wool King." Tho value of his dead wool was equal to the honorarium of a member. ; Tho Chairman ruled - at this stago that Mr. Ross could not .allud6 to another member's private affairs. '' Mr. Dillon here made a jocular re-

Mr. Hogan: It will bo a party with tho workingmen on tlic 0110 side and the bloated capitalists on tlio other, (laughter.) Premier Attacks the Opposition. The Premier said that owing to tho fact that the afternoon had been lost lie did not now seo that it would bo possible to adjourn the Monday sitting till 7.30 p.m. He went on to say that it was easy to seo that tho Opposition had voted for tho restoration of tho clause for party purposes. As a matter of fact, the Opposition had always voted on tho side of the large land-owners. When taxation Was proposed to burst up largo estates, tho Opposition objected. The capital of the largo landowners went to assist tho Opposition and their press. It was clear that tho Opposition only wanted to give the Government a slap on tho face. The fact that there had beeii a majority vote against the Government would have been duly recorded by the Opposition megaphone in Wellington- (LivjgJiter.) That journal would again say that "What a weak leader tho Government party - had," also "Another "Fall." (Hear, hears.) Its remarks had become ludicrous, and ■ they could only laugh at them. (Ironical laughter.) Ho found that in tho year 1904 the Opposition carried divisions against tho Government twenty-one times, and sccnrcd ties on five occasions. ■ This was duo to the assistance of a wing of tho Government party. Under his administration tho Opposition had succeeded in doint; the same thing seven times. . ■ Mr. Massoy: But yoa never stand up; you always run away. Sir Joseph Ward went on to say that now those who opposed him were crying for tho Bill to be preserved. Ho (the Premior) had always favoured laws to prevent tlio aggregation of estates. AtlvlcG to Wavering Followers. As regards those on his side who were opposing him, ho' would say that ho thought it would bo ten. thousand times bettor for them to go right over to tho other sido and. stay there. It was no use having members who would not stick to their own party. It was no gain for them to vote for \tlio" Government when the Government was all right. It was only when there was a pinch 'that a member's vote was really of use. What were tho use of vacillating members, members who, sat on a fence, who voted ono way to-day and another way to-morrow. They were 110 good to any party. Ho would - ten thousand times sooner bo attached to a party; with a majority of-four who would, stand by him when the Opposition wero trying to mako a j>arty gain than have a party with a majority of 25, some of whom from time to time did just what they liked, and then tried to explain their vote away. Such members were, no,good to the Government; nor would they bo any good to .any party thoy joined. The clauso in question was moved by himself. Ho put it thore to prevent the aggregation of estates. In the Legislative Council ii was found, that tho clause would bo unworkable, and it was deleted. The SolicitorGeneral- had the Government "Tho clause was unworkable. .These allotments are freehold. . . . It is impossible to preserve.for all time their identity. ... The clauso would render all titlos in future uncertain." Ho would bo sorry to see the Bill deferred for "twelve months. But what would bo tho £ood of inserting a clause if it would mean that' no ono would get a proper title. "Would Not Listen to Him." Tho Houso would not listen to his explanation. Ho would admit it was only a thin House—only 48 present. Mr. Poland -.56. Continuing, Sii Joseph Ward said that tho Opposition did not care a rap about tho clauso. All they: wanted was to make a party advantage. Ho regretted that some members of his party wero willing to seo tho Government get a slap on tho face. Mr. Ross: Why didn't you help- to make tho clauso workable? Sir Joseph Ward: If you could tell mo how it . would bo possible. .Mr. Poland: That is. tho duty of the Crown Law officers. ' Mr. T. Bi. TayloT: A land tax . would bo the only way. '' Sir Joseph W : ard: Yes, when, there is property to tax. Continuing, Sir Joseph Ward said that tho House, having decided- to' bo put in tho position of not being able to give titles, must accept tho responsibility. He was not going on with tho Bill with tho clause. Ho proposed to ask tho House to strike it out or let the Bill drop. He had no feeling in the matter. To Mr. Allen, Sir Joseph Ward at this stage remarked that ho would like to havo a few words to say as regards his remarks. • - - * Mr. Allen: I am- ready for them. Sir Joseph Ward (noticing that tho dinner adjournment had arrived): lam sorry that I shall have to postpouothem. Mr. Allen: I am sorry also. Mr. Speaker (to Mr. Allen): You will havo a respite till 7.30. (Laughter.) Premier Climbs Down. Upon tlio resumption of tho Houso at 7.30, the debate was not continued. Sir, Joseph Ward stated that as the House had expressed a desire that tlio Bill should remain on tho Order Paper he would not press tho matter. Ho asked leavo to withdraw his. motion, which was agreed to. » There was a strong impression in tho lobbies that the Primo Minister's motion to strike tho Bill off tho Order Paper would havo been defeated.