THE GAMING BILL.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 970, 10 November 1910, Page 5

THE GAMING BILL.

DISCUSSED IN PARLIAMENT. MR. GLOVER GIVES AN OPEN CHALLENGE. VARIOUS POINTS OF VIEW. THE TOTALISATOR AND THE BOOKMAKER. There were crowded galleries at the House of Representatives last night, when tiie Gaming Bill came on for consideration. In moving the committal of the measure, the Prime Minister, said that the Bill proposed to bring about a big reduction in the amount of racing. The new clause as to the days of racing was a great improvement. As regards totalisator investments it was found that it would not do to prohibit investments by cheque. "The Grand Old Sport." Mr. Herries (Tauranga) said that lie wished to speak- now in the interests of those who loved the grand old sport of racing. X-here were, to his mind, several defects iif the measure. The assertion that there was too much racing was a bogey. Considering the increase of population, the number of days' racing had not increased in. the same proportion. In all, there were 365 days of racing in the year. It had to be borne in mind, however, that. on important holidays as many as ten .'clubs held meetings.- The argument 'of a meeting a day, therefore, fell.to the grouad. If it were proposed to. prohibit.,horse-racing ,it would be a very unpopular move. He believed that more than one-half of the adult population favoured the sport. With reference to the bookmakers, he would like to point out that tho Bill "now went further than, the resolution of the House. It was originally intended ■ that the expulsion of bookmakers.should,apply only to meetings with totalisator permits, but the measure, as; amended by the Committee, made the clause apply to the 109 registered race meetings and twenty trotting meetings 'which had not the use of the machine. The totalisator was a means by which people other than the wealthy classes could race at a moderate figure. Before 1907 the bookmaker did not do much harm at the small meetings Since theii, however, the riff-raff of Australia had come over to do business at these gatherings. If unsuitable men. were appointed to the proposed commission, there would-be a lot of bickering over the days of racing, especially on the part of country clubs. ■ . The Breed of Horses.

Bacing must be encouraged if the breed of horses in New Zealand was to be maintained. The English thoroughbred had improved in.staying powers on its Arab , predecessors. It was his opinion that Bridge,could.give Eclipse a stone and a beating over two miles. (Hear, hear.) Mr. E. H. Taylor (Thames) contended that there was far too much racing in New Zealand. The large attendance at race meetings did not show that racing was needed, but it showed a good deal of depravity. What were the racing people doing for the jockeys? To his view it was better to raise a fine stock of men than a. fine stock of horses; If racing could not be carried on without gambling the best thing would be to let it go. Why, in the olden days tha owners were only too pleased to find .the stakes. What was at the bottom of -the trouble in regard to racing was gambling. It encouraged everything that was anti-social. Had they not .had. an expression'of opinion from a Judge on the subject? The folly of. gambling must be apparent to everybody. There was no greater traitor to true sport than the gambler. Plea for the Bookmaker.

Mr. Glover (Auckland Central) said that Mr. Taylor was certainly entitled to his opinions, but he (Mr. Glover) was prepared to go before his constituents on the Bill. fEe.iwouldiilike ■t©;Temin<l Mr. Taylor that at the Stock Exchange in' Ancleland ho w.ould find gambling carried on with all its natural splendour. (Laughter.) They all knew that gambling was not confined to racecourses. What did they find at church bazaars? The yonng ladies came along and said: "Two shillings, Mr. Glover." (Loud laughter.) One went to these bazaars with his pockets full and returned with them empty. The ladies were very enticing, but the prizes one gained were very small. Hundreds of ladies in his electorate had regretted the ■ abolition of the gaslight sports at Auckland. It was inherent in young men to try. and excel in sports. What happened now?. Many a lady was asking.: "Where is my boy to-night?" (Koars of laughter.) Members could rest assured that it was impossible to stop gambling. '.It -.would exist in one shape' or form as long as life lasted. What was lrfe- Only a gamble. (laughter.) What about life insurance? Everybody, knew about the tontines. There were thousands of people in his electorate whose only enjoyment besides going to church was being able to go to the racecourse and the theatre. (Continued merriment.)

A Doleful Picture. Continuing,.. Mr. Glover advanced an argument for betting.with the bookmaker, rather than with the totalisator. "If you go to a meeting _ with oisjht halfcrowns," ho said, "that, would be £1. A man would have very hard lnct if he did not strike one winner in eight bets. That' would be what I call the-irony of fate. If the bookmaker were abolished he would have to put .half a sovereign on the totalisator. Ton may say he could get others to-put in half-a-crown with him, but I say that would 'not be easy, because it is difficult on the racecourse to get four people of the same way of ' thinking. (Laughter.) So that instead, of putting on his two shillings and half-a-crown, he would put on 10s. Those who would suffer would be the butcher, baker, and milkman, and landlord."

Mr. Glover continued, that if tho Prime Minister was.going, on .with, the Bill he (Mr. Glover) was prepared to stay till Christmas to get a good Bill. '. He' asenred_ the House he was not afraid of anything ho lad said,. and he gave •an open challenge to: anyone . who thought he was wrong to come nnd contest his constituency. He concluded by drawing a gloomy picture of what might happen to a bookmaker if the Bill passed in its present form. He might bo arrested while chatting to a friend, put in durance vilo for three weeks, then there would be an adjournment for a week, then an adjournment for another week. Is that British fair play? demanded Mr. Glovef.

The Galloway Races. Mr. Macdqnald (Bay of Plenty) said that the excess of racing had taken place in the towns. 'What had initiated the adverse movement were the galloway races. He would like to remind Mr. Taylor that.it did not necessarily follow that a horse-owner gambled. During his twenty-eight years of racing he had not had a single bet with a bookmaker. If totalisator permits were not granted in the country districts it would hard with the clubs, as-the bookmaker would be gone. He hoped that country members would do their utmost to see that the proposed commission received instructions not to overlook-the interests of the country districts.

Mr. Wrigiit- (Wellington South) said it was a sorry fact that racing depended on gambling. He would like to ask what happened prior to. the advent of the totalisator. , Members: There was tho bookmaker Continuing, Mr. Wright said that by the fact .that the totalisator had the approval of the State young people- were led to believe that there was no harm in machine' betting. It was said in some quarters that the machine could do no wron°Was it not a fact , that in some cases commissions were kept back to the W minuto? . "

A member: You are too suspicious Proceeding, Mr. Wright said it wculd bo a great mis take if the press were allowed to publish dividends etc It would enable the bookmaker to carrv on his busings. He did not believe "thai the 8.1 l would bring about a reduction m the amount of racing.. For himseTf he was net opposed'to horse-racing, but to tho increase in gambling.

A Voice Crying in the Wilderness. nnllWH lltor ? jP««) declared that the publication of dividends .was a check

[against'crooked running. Ho did not bo. liove that legislation would prevent betting. As long as fhero was a head and tail on a penny people would bet. Unscrupulous bookmakers would not bo able to lake advantage of bettors if the dividends were published. Seeing that the machino was legal, why should the public not have the right to know what took place in regard to it? By taking the bookmakers off the course and putting them on the streets great harm waa going to be done. If the could bo cleared off both tho course and the street it would be a good thing—but it was not feasible. - When the bookmakers were not allowed on the course one would be asked on Tace days a good, many times,. "Anything to-day?" as he passed'up Willis Street. A mmnlrer: I'h.ive never been asked. Mr. Wilford: No; they would r.ot.asK the promoters of this measure. (Laughter.) . In conclusion, Mr. Wilford saj;l lie knew he could not convert his colleagues —he was a voice crying in the wilderness —but still his views were sound. To Clean the Sport. v

Mr. Witty (Kiccarton) said there wert more bankruptcies through gambling in stock than through gambling on the races. It was only very rarely that one heard of a man committing suicide through gambling on races, but it was not infrequently that they saw that gambling in stocks had led to suicide. The Bill waa a: big. improvement, and an honest, attempt to clean the sport. A great deal would depend on getting good commissioners. It was a good Bill, and would do a large amount of good. Mr. Pearce (Patea) spoke strongly against the bookmaker. Unless the law was made more stringent they could not possibly kill the bookmaker out. Horseracing, was one of tlie best sports in the world, and he would be sorrv to soe it done away with, although he believed the reduction imposed by the Bill was desirable. ■ -.■•■■ ■Mr. Massey said this was not a party question. So far as the Bill was concerned, he was of opinion that it had been very greatly improved by the Committee to which it was referred. If the Bill went on to the Statute Book in anything like its present form, it would do a great deal to remedy the abuses that had crept into horse-racing of late years.. He was fond.of a good horse and a good race, and he had bred some good thoroughbreds and draught stock, and was proud of it. \ - Degrading to Sport. If he could abolish gambling in one act, however, it would go at once. Beti ting with the bookmaker was one of tho, worst forms of gambling, and was degrading not only to horse-racing, but to every sport at which'it takes place. Ii the totalisator was wiped out they would bo playing right into the hands of the : bookmaker. The present Bill went in the right direction. There . was too much racing at present, and the Bill proposed to reduce the number of raco days, and to abolish the bookmaker and .regulate the totalisator. As far as these matters were concerned, the Bill .would have his.support. ' . !

In Committee on tie Bill, at Clause % Mr. Wilford moved that the penalty foi a second offence for street batting be in. creased from three, to six months. The Prime Minister' said that if the Committee.agreed to this they might as well strike out the clause. In nine cases out of ten the law would be inoperative , with this extension. The .extension would allow the cases to be tried by a jury. ■■.:'.-■..- Mr. Fraser (Wakatipu) said that experience had. , shown that it was impossible to get a l ,conviction for this class 6f offence before a jury. Hβ hoped the Prime Minister would keep to three months. On a division the amendment negatived, the voting being: For, 12; against, 63. An Important Amendment. Mr. Herries (Tauranga) moved an amendment to the new clause, providing that every person who offers to make any bet on a racecourse is to be penalised by substituting the word "bookmaker. for "person." The Prime Minister said that he was prepared to accept the amendment. \ Mr. Mnssey thought it would be better to strike the clause out altogether than! to let it pass as it stood. He thought the Bill could do without the clause. . . The proposal was agreed to by 53 vote? to 21. ■ : ■■ ■ ■'.:- ; \ Mr. Ross (Pahiatuai moved an amendment to allow bookmakers on racecourses in respect of whioh the. totalisator is not permitted. The proposal was rejected. by 58 votes to 14, the minority including the HonsJ. Carroll and J. A. Millar. . ■ . It was next proposed by Mr. T. E. Taylor that bookmakers should fce prevented from betting on public places and premises as well as racecourses., The Prime Minister held that provision; had already been , made in this regard. ■ Mr. Taylor: We had better make it clear. . The amendment was agreed -to on the voices. v ■

Upon a division the sub-clause' as amended was agreed to by 66 to.B. A Knotty Problem. : Mr.- Pearce (Patea) then moved a new. sub-clause as under: —"Everv person who> makes a bet with a bookmaker as to the result of any race, or sport/.is guilty o£ an offence; and liable, on conviction, to ; a- fine not exceeding ten pounds." The sub-clause was rejected by 40 votes to 32. . ■:■- . It.was then-proposed by■.Hγ. Pearce that in any prosecution under. this section, no person shall be excused from.answering any question put,to him when giving evidence on the ground that ' his answer would tend to criminate him.' ■ : Mr. Fisher ('Wellington, Central) said : that the division (if any) on the subject would be closely waiched by people in-, terested in the licensing question. •'.■■'.' The new clause' was rejected on the voices. ■-..■'.■

With regard to Clause 4 (racing clubs to prevent bookmakers from plying their calling on racecourses), the Prime Minister, moved a new sub-clause to the effect that any bookmaker betting on a course, etc., may after warning be re-: moved by any agent or servant of a cluli or a constable, and the clause was approved. . . : Mr. Pearce (Patea) then moved a new clause as follows:—"Every bookmaker shall.be deemed to bo an idle and disorderly person within the meaning of Section 49 of : the Police Offences Act 1908." ■.::.•

■ Mr. Chairman ruled that the clause must be proposed at tho end of the Bill.

Basis of Granting "Tote" Permits.'

Mr. Clark (Port Chalmers) moved a sub-clause to. Clause 6, to the effect that in the grant of totalisator permits preference shall be given to those clubs which used the totalisator for one meeting only in one year. ' . : - . Tho Hon. E. MTvenzie said that he would like to support a suggestion of the kind if the grant of the permits was to be on a population basis. Mr. Davey (Christchurch East) urged: that the commissioners should be given a free hand in the matter of the grant of permits. ' ' ; The Prime Minister opposed the amendment on the ground that the commission, should not be hampered by conditions, ■'■■ Upon a division the sub-clause was car-' ried against the Prime -Minister by 36 votes to 35, amidst clapping from a number of members on the Government side. Mr. Pearce (Patea) moved an amend' ment to tho clause dealing with the duration of race meetings, to provide that, two-day meetings must be held on consecutive days. On a division-the amend meht was rejected by 53 to IC. A motion to strike out the word "seven" in the clause providing that not , more than seven races be held on any onerace, day, with a view to inserting ' another word, was lost by 51 to. 18. ; . Mr. Hemes moved a proviso to the clause as to the duration of race meetings that nothing should prevent a committee or stewards of any club from extending a meeting beyond the period specified because of extraordinary circumstances or inclement weather. This was agreed to on the voices. The Primp Minister moved to strike out. Clause 78, which was agreed to by 50 to. 20, the result being that it will not be permissible for newspapers to publish , racing dividends.