THE LIQUOR PROBLEM.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 965, 4 November 1910, Page 5

THE LIQUOR PROBLEM.

BILL DEBATED IN THE HOUSE. NATIONAL PROHIBITION HOW IT WOULD AFFECT THE FINANCES. The Licensing Bill came on for its second reading in the House of Representatives yesterday afternoon. In anticipation of the discussion, the galleries were crowded, many of those present being closely associated eithpr with the NoLioenso party or "tho trade," . , When tho Bill was coming on, it was noticed that the Whips were very busy in the chamber and lobby, and the rumour went round that they were securing the consent of members to an arrangement that the debate should be confined to the leaders of the two 1 parties. ■This was confirmed by the event. Sir Joseph Ward used his full hour, and Mr. Massey his half hour. The, Premier then replied, and tho second reading was car? ried: The fate pf the Bill is, of course, uncertain, biit experienced Parliamentarians think it will not have a smooth passage through Committee, Before the debate, ■there was a strong body of opinion that Clause 3, regarding the one vote for Dominipn and local option would either be amended or knocked out, and that the Government would make this an excuse for dropping the Bill. The Premier, however, in his reply to Mr. Massey, indicated his intention to propose an amendment separating the local and national issues at the polls. Mr, Massey had, just before, protested against the combining of the two issues, and had'declared that he was a member of the "great third party," though he had'friends on both the.extreme sides. Premier's Speech.' In moving the second reading of the measure, The Prime Minister said, that it was impossible to make any alterations in the licensing law without the co-operation of certajii sections of the House. That was the reason why no chuuges, had been made for some years. To try and force legislation of the kind', through the House amounted l;p an insurmpnptable difficulty, lie referred to the negotiations which took place between the jartios and the Hon. Dr. Find[ny last year. ; Mr. Poland: What about- the third great party. ■ . Sir Joseph: They did not approach me in, the matter." 'Mr. Mfissey: If you had told me, I would, have come along. (Laughter.) Continuing, Sir Joseph said the. present Bill had been 'drafted without reference to either party—it was a Government measure, It was true that both of them had made suggestions, It would be seen that the principal innovation was for a poll on the Question of national prohibition, If the proposal were affirmed, it would ppable the question to bp put for the first time in the history of New Zealand next year. That this question would have to ba put sooner or later in some form he felt was. inevitable. -Many advocates of No-License admitted that No-License was but a transition stage to national prohibition. If the State wae not to take over tho sole .control of the, liquor traffic, the. logical result of the, extinction of licenses was prohibition, Results of NQ-Lican.se, The Government had been influenced to a very considerable extent by what they recognised to be tho evils that had been disclosed in some of the No-License districts. Evan-those yho found much. to commend the principle of , NojL'icensefrankly admitted that the results up till now left much to bo desired. At all events on the broad principle of democratic government if the people desired to vote, on tho question of national prohibition they ought to ba. given an opportunity of saying so at the polls. ' Mr. »Poolo: Not on a double ballotpaper. Sir Joseph said that the proposal in the Bill was that in the event of national prohibition being carried it should come into force four years after the next general election. He found a material difference of opinion existed between the two sides on the subject and he wanted to say frankly that it did not meet with the acceptation of either ride. . The Alliance asked that.the term should.bo three years, The representatives of "the trade' , on the other hand hnd nlso changed their views since they agreed to the compact last year. They, asked that the period should be made nine years and they gave reasons for it which have a, good deal of argument from their point -ofview. In regard to the Bill it was not believed possible to get a .mutual' agreement letiveen tho two important parties outside the House. Mr. Greenslade: What about the modi erate party? . . ' The Financial Aspect. Sir Joseph said that the Government had not been able to agree to the request of either party. Finally, as Minister for Finance, he. recommended, his colleagues to have four years put in the Bi)l after a gqod deal of consideration from the financial aspect. The Ministry had to assume, in framing the -Bill, that a proposal of this kind might be carried. In the event of that taking place a rendjustmen't of the taxation "must take place within the period, so as to ensure the stability of the finances of the country. It wns his duty to state to tho House whnt he believed would be the financial results. The figures whjoh he would give were the official figures-of the Depart? mout, and in giving them ho was doing so riot on an approximate amount, but on the, position ot revenue this' year, On an important question of the kind it was hardly necessary for. him to say that tco should know what we were doing. The return gave ,the revenue from spirits, beer and wines, and brewery licenses for the year ended, March 31,1910.' It was.as follows:—Spirits, <J8578,55G 12s, lld.i wines, lGs.; beer, J2SAS9 Qs. 2d.; total, ,£613,163 9s. Id, Beer expise duty, £115,371 7s, . 4d.; brewery licenses, i! 123; brewery licenses to msnnifaoture hop beor, .£76; grand total, Jtfoß,723 16s. sd. To this total, continued Sir Joseph, had to be added in round figures about from ,£75,000 to .£120,000 for conveyance by rail and other ordinary business connected with the industry in the various Departments ojitside the Customs Department. He had not put an overestimate on the matter, but based the four years on the assumption that <£SOQ,000 of revenue would be require*] to be rnndo up in the event pf national pro? hibition being carried.

Issue Must be Practical. These figures would be found to be rather under-stated, but he had put them fairly, as he believed that the national prohibition issue should be taken in this country. The proposal of "the trade" that the period should be nine years was top long altogether. If they were to have practical legislatiop with a praetioal issue it would not do to have so long a period as would destroy the issue of its. results. It would be far wiser to fix the period of years as low as we ought to go, Unless ths measure was approached in something like a generous spirit of compromise, it would be hopoless to have if put into law this session or any other session. .. Mr, Lawry: Why .don't you leave' tho law alone? Sir Joseph: Because there is a strong domand for more up-to-date legislation. Continuing, Sir Joseph said that l>o recognised that there was room for differences of opinion. Ho recognised that some amendments would be necessary. The draughtsman had informed him that Hint would bo essential in some instances, He would do his best where nmendpicnts wore made to have them fairly considered. Tho good, he felt, should not be lost on account of minor objections. The issues at the polls wore to bo limited to Continuance and No-License, and the majority rorniired to carry either proposal would, be 55 per cent, instead of throo-fifthe ae at present. On No-License or Restoration boing carriotl, Hie poll would not take eflrat until ono year afterwards. In last year's Bill it was two years. That was a point on which there was o material difference hetween those responsible/ for the agreement which he had read, and it therefore seomed best to the Government to submit a proposal for nn interval of • one year. It would really work out as IS months, because

the change would take place at the annual meotings of the Licensing Committeo in June. . Effect of National Prohibition. National prohibition was to como into effect four years after being earned at the polls, and its effect would be to prohibit the granting or renewal of any' license, and to make it a criminal offence to import, manufacture, sell, or have in possession for sale intoxicating liqnor of any description. There were exceptions for liquor ' required for medioinal, scientific, industrial, or sacraments! purposes, in accordance with regulations. After the coming into force of national prohibition there would be no further licensing poll for three years, and after that, at every general election, there would be a poll on the issue of restoration of licenses throughout New Zealand. A 55 per cant would be required to carry the proposal, and, if it was carried, licenses would be issued in accordance with the number of electors in each district Another cLause prohibited the renewal of existing bottlo licenKs; tile present law only prohibited the issue of new ones. During the year ended March, 1509, there were 2135 licenses for the sale of intoxicating liquors in New Zealand, namely, 1361 public hotel and accommodation licenses, 6 for the sale of New Zealand wines, 63 packet licences, 28 bottle licenses, Idß wholesale, and 521 conditional licenses. The fees amounted to 1*19,017, and formed part of the revenues of the local' bodies. Sir Joseph went on to explain the other clauses of the Bill. Clause 31, he said, was to put a stop to the locker system, the abuses allied with which were generally recognised It was. to be made an offence to keep or use any premises, except licensed prepiisas, as a place of resort for the consumption o'f liquor. The existing. , law in tiis connection dealt only with the consumption of liquor by people who had already bought it, and it was known that there (vera places where'people met to drink liquor, and paid for it on a , 'divisional system. This was quite different from the looker system, and was one of the worst aspects of the matter ; under the present Jaw, ■ especially in No-License districts. The eale of liquor'to persons under 21—instead of undep- lij as at present—was to be prohibited. ;

Breweries and Depots, Clause 41 prohibited breweries in NqLicense districts and within five''miles of the boundary of any No-License district, but existing, breweries,'.not in No-License tlistriots, but within five miles of a NoLiceuse district, would not be required to be closed down. He knew that this last proposal had strong opponents, but be believed it was best for the country as a whole. Otherwise it would be just possible for all the • breweries, in New Zealand to be closed down, and yet national prohibition not being carried, importation could go on as before.' Clause 42 prohibited depots within 5 miles of a NoLicense district. He would give'further information about the. miscellaneous amendments when :i the Bill-iyag in Committee. One proposal to which he had not alluded was to do away with the present provision regarding the half-poll, which was of very little use from the standpoint of the interests of either side. It had led to putting. up candidates for Parliament, when the-.people would not otherwise have done so,- aud- bad caused considerable irritation and- annoyance. The abolition of the half-poll.provision shonld commend itself to the people of the country. He was prepared to consider whether, the issues'should bo put in a clearer way. . ....- VIEWS Qf- MR. MASSEY. Afr. Massey said that trie Prime Minister had.-had very little to say in favour of his Bill, It. was.only in 190 i that the last Licensing Bill went through Parliament.' He regretted that the Bill had been brought forward at a late period of the session. It.was impossible to predict in what form the Bill would leave the House. The Bill was" one of a class which were cunningly framed, Neither the Alliance npr "the trade'' had been able to come to a conclusion as to what would be the result of 'the'legislation. It would appear that an attempt had been made to "make both sides believe that the Bill was- in their, interests. Ho would not say that amendments were not needed in tha licensing law, RtilJ, these amendments should be framed on the assumption that the people had tho light to settle the questions at issue. It must havp seemed to members that the Premier made too.much of two extreme parties. There was another great pavty which had never been consulted in the matter. (Hear, hears.) ' Far. too much [ittention was, he felt sure, paid to the views of the Alliance and the "trade." Mqs.t criticism would cejitre around the running together of the issues' as regards local and natipnal option, and in regard tp the question of majority. TJp to the present he had stood to the threefifths majority, which had:-had the effect of ensuring stability. There had been no swaying about .with reference to. the electorates. An authority whom l\e quoted spoko strongly in favour of a genuine majority. He knew that the arguments m favpuv of the bare majority were increasing every election, Ho believed that feeling would grow, and in time Parliament would have to give way, Under the Bill, what had been known in tho past as No-License would bo done away wjth, He hud heard people say that under this Bill, although they hah voted NoJjqense in the past, they could not vote for national nrohibition,

Counting the Issues. The roost important part of the Bill was Sub-Clause 3 of Clause 3, which he strongly opposed. This was the,provision which made a vote for local NoLicense count for national prohibition, and vice versa. Ho doubted whether that would (jot through Committee.-; As to the reduction issue, the effect of carrying reduction in the cities had been that tho trade was simply transferred from one house to another.- He had pledges to his constituents to keen, and he would keep them, but he honed that ultimately the reduction issuo would be abolished. He strongly objected to Clause.2o, which was equivalent to what was formerlv known as ''Clauso ?". qf another Bill. A laugh was raised by Mr. Massey reading the. .words which direct that liquor seized under Clause 20 should ba giyonjp the hospitals. He did not think that clause would live long, Thoro were many "moderates" who would vote for closing the bars, but would never vote prohibition. He did not know how that would affept the , result, witlvthe 55 per cent, majority, Only a. practical test wonld show that. It seemed to have been overlooked that most of tho members of the House were pledged on all tho principal aspects of the licensing question. . On smaller ■ points eaqU member should be quite free.

"The Qreat Third Party." . Hon. E. M'Kenzie: Which side are you on ? '. . ' Mr. Jlassey: I am a member of tho great third party, and I don't car& a twopenny ticket about the other two. I'm prepared to dp my duty in my own way, and take the consequences. Continuing, Sir. Massey said he thought the time must oomo when the licensing polia would be separated from the Parliamentary elections. Tho licensing question had stirred tin in the past more bitterness inside and outside tho House than any other, and he wished to ooncratulate the Prime Minister on the moderate tone of hi§ speech. For his own part, ho had friends on both sides of tho question, hut members should not he influenced by any personal considerations, lie advocated more complete inspection, and measures against adulteration of liquor. He thought the Prime Minister made a mistake in introducing the Bill this session. The people did not desire-it. The present law pave a o&r----tain amount of satisfaction. He thonijht the Bill should be allowed to go' into Committal, so as to separate the good olauses from the .bad ones, and pas?'the good ones. If the Bill passfd it would not ba final. Even if national prohibition were carried ihat would not be final. A large fcction of the people would want something more, He had, after reading what had occurred in other countries, given up any idea of State control, . . : THE PRIME MINISTER'S REPLY. IMPORTANT AMENDMENT PROMISED. The Primo Minister then replied, as there wore no other'speakers. "• Ho resented a suggestion that, ho had not dealt clearly with the question of the joining of the two issues on the ballot paper. Ho was .not foolish enough to commit himself to wfiat he '"believed would be an imjjossiblo or at least a verv.

difficult matter to carry through, but l in Committee ha would make proposals j which he believed-tho Houso would agree ' < to, in order to avoid the possibility ; of more than one issue being settled by ; one person at ■ one time. They would i have to make provision eo that • a vote I (or No-License alone could be cast. i Not Automata. | He thought their constituents did noi j look upon their members as automata. I At the same time he was not going to ; ask any member, to break a pledge to i iiis constituents. The Leader of tho i Opposition had evidently been in cou- ; siderablc difficulty over this Bill. ■ . i Mr. Massey: None whatever. ■! Sir Joseph Ward: I think he was what ! is called "hedging," ' . ■ ! Continuing, the Prime Minister said j that nobody could put legislation on this i subject upon the Statute Book without ■ considering both parties. He was sure ' there would be in Committee an attempt i to establish the bare majority, and also ■ < the three-fifths majority. In dealing j with a great question like this they had .j to hew out their own path. Members ■ were unpledged on the question of . tho '.- i proper majoritx' in a. noli on national prohibition. He would vote straight for the 55 per cent., anct no aoubf the mem- ■ bcr for Christchurch North would vote for the bare majority. In regard to : Clause 20, if the people had decided to ' ■ . have no manufacture, impdrtation, or sale of-Jiquor, they must havo the penal provision to make it effective. Experience pf the evasion of Customs duties svas enough to prove that. "Without Undue Delay." If this legislation had been brought down early in the session, as some members had said it should, the House would' have been performing on it eight or nine weeks—or, at any rate, three or four. ■ ■■ ■ Mr. Massey: And how long should we be now? ■ ' '.•■".-■'.• The Prime Minister said that if rnemr. bers would assist the Bill should be put.' on the Statute Book without undue delay. (Laughter.). He agreed that State' control was not a practicable scheme for. New Zealand. " The Bijl was read a second time on the voices. ' < The Bare Majority. Notice las been given by Mr. Malcolm that he will move amendments to the Licensing Bill to the effect that local- . no-license and national p'rphibitipn should! be parried on the bare majority. ; "' .