THE HINE CHARGES.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 958, 27 October 1910, Page 5

THE HINE CHARGES.

HOUSE AND COUNCIL

A-QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE.

Un INDIGNANT UPPER CHAMBER.,

The Legislative Council set itself to consider yesterday tho following resolution from the House of Representatives regarding the Hine charges:—"That a message : bo sent' to ,tho Honourable the Speaker of tho Legislative Council conveying the information that tho following charge has been made by tho honourable member for Stratford against the Herd T. K.-Mac-donald, a member of the Legislative Council:—That Thomas ' Kennedy Macdonald, in or about ,thb year 1904 and subsequent years, while a member of the Legislative Council, either alone or in conjunction with his then partner, a land agent, conducted the 6ale to the Government of tho property of one John Motley Loigli at Nai Nai and tho properties of other persons, and received from. the said John Motley Leigh.and tho ■ vendor* of such other properties, commissions, or' other sums of money; or, alternatively, the said Thomas Kennedy Macdonald and his said partner, received the said commissions or other; sums and divided th« Bam©,*"- : . Views of the Attorney-General. The Attorney-General said it would 6o seen that tho message • from the House, of Representatives contained a reflection on an hou. member of the. Council. It would also.be observed that that, reflection was made on the hon. ■' gentleman •as a member of • Parliament, and not •on him in a private capacity.. He proposed to ask tho Council to permit him to move without notice that the message do referred to a Committee of Privilege, of the Council. Ho thought it was clearly established that reflections by' a member of one Chamber on a member of another Chamber were unconstitutional, were .against the Standing Orders-of the House, jand were a breach of. privilege. (Hear, pear.)'. If thM practice were to be perfmitted, we would have most unseemly '■results—results in the highest degree de•rogatory to. the: dignity of the Chamber. If a member of "another place" could use the protection given him bv another House to assail the character o? a member of another House-v&nd God- forbid rthat this should be—we might Mums reprisal and retaliation. Wo would havo ■ a result which ■' the ■ most rigid, -rule In Great Britain sought to 'exclude. Our forefathers had: fought strenuously to provide against, defamation. May's ■ Pai> .liamentary Practice said reflection by tho members of one House': on the'members of.another House had. always been treated 0£ an indignity. He was going to'ask-tho Council to deal with the matter as an indignity, which, they must take a constitutional method of - preventing. He : thought therefore the Council should refer tho message to a Committee of Privilege' to have the privileges of tho Council asserted'in proper form. It was duo to thoHon. Mr. Macdonald to say that lie had expressed to him (Dr. ; Findlay) an. earnest desire that tlie charges should bo roi ferrod to a committee. While' Mr. Maodonald's feelings desired sbnib'. considerkv tion.'the first duty,was to tho:Council. Having (Considered that it was- tim». enough to consider, the.personal feelings qi the hon. gentleman, he moved thai; the message bo referred to a Committeo of Privilege. .■..'■•.'.■ -■■••.!V : ' : r' The Hon. George Jones.,- (Otago) said; he .would lite the; AttorneyJGeneral !td indicate, for /what' purpose .the . messago was going to be referred tea Committee of Privilege. He thought it would be ad-: visabla. to indicate in tho resolution- the purpose for which the matter was being' referred. to\tho, committee.. Ho took: if that it was not to ascertain whether tho hon. gentleman was;guilty or not, but: rather whether it. was a breach of privilege :or not.' (Hear, hear.) - .'.'".■• .;,.'.'

•'Honour and Dignity of the Chamber. ; YTho Hon. J. Eigg (Wellington)' said ho' agreed with the. course proposed: to lw ! taken. ; It #as the duty of the Council at all times.to uphold the.honour and) dignity, of: this branch of the Legislature/ and he hoped the motion would be; ao ..peptedi : If it was found that any!person had committed a breach .^of . privilcgo, other proceedings'must necessarily follow' if .the Council was.to.etiforceVthat respect for'; its privileges Which authorities laid' down should'be:observed. Ho did .not think the.personal aspect of the question should be delayed; by • any consideration; ill..regard to privilege.;, There was 'a'duty.: owing to the public in this matter.' .This was merely an attempt to set, aside con-: isidcratian of a disagreeable question until it was too late; in! the session^. A request catao from the 'hoii.. gentleman himself.' Ho (Mr. Eigg) thought that they should, proceed to.set up a committee, also, to consider tho. charges.*.. :■■. . ! . : ■ Annoying Reflections, ' . : !.''.'''; : : s The Hon. J. E. (Wellington) ? said he was glad to hear-that a Commits tee of Privilege was to bo set up to deal 1 with the matter of. the.reflection made' by,one member., on another.,: He and. others had sat in the-gallery; in "another place," and ho 'was sure: it.made/their blood boil to'hear the reflections passed .011 the Council by members of, the House of Eeprescntativos. If theJCouncii could show them that they had got tired of this, and if- they took a stand;: it-would' be doing a lot of good. It was very'annoying to. hear; .the - reflections ' cast- on members of tho Council, and' there was scarcely a debate but what-an offensive 'reflection was cast on members'-of - thb> Council. It was time this was stripped. They should show '■ members of "another place" that thoy. were not going, to: lie: down and take it. .Tie hohhgchtlemaii; concerned deserved- consideration, and ho ■ thought the-matter should bo dealt with as soon as possible. . ,■,-:.■;;. ■,'. '■.'■■": ■>■■ The Hon. 0. Samuel (Taranaki) did not think the fact that the Council\ was ; not properly understood in "s place'should moke them undulyvexed. The services of the Council were, not of an- ostentatious description. They' wore'' more valualilo iu: counsel than in utteiv once. On- tho other hand,: they, had, to Bempmber. that there were . duties' which belonged to those- sitting in "another place. This might, cause' irritation .--(i.'' members, of the Council; but it' was noreason why members, of the other House ■shouldnot do their dirty* " -. Mr. .taikinsoni -It is no ..reason : why they, should bo offehsim - '■ '■■'■.: \'■",'■

Continuing, Mr. Samuel/admitted' that ho himsolf liad been- pafeed by eonio of the ntterancos i in. the House of Repnesenhatives at -times. Ho was inclined to ■agree with what had boon : said ;by the Eons. Bigg and Jenkinson. The Council should - lose no; time in sotting up -a 'conunittoo, a,nd iftrerfigating: the charges and cnabjfl the hon. gentleman 'ooneerned to show that be was innocent. Ho would deprecate any delay in completely: investigating tho'wattes. ■".■/': The Hon. R. A. Loughnan : (Wdlington) thought'..the ' Attorney-General hod' stated tho; position as, between the : two Houses esactly. The Chief Justice had said thero was no violation of tho law in the matter.. ';.... ; V :':-a:;' ' Leave. No Loophole.- -.'•', : Tho, Hon.. J. T. Paul> (Otago) hoped theuo would bo no quostion a&Sufcsettihg up a Committeo of Privilege,' He would: urgo that tho Council should adopt' the suggestion, of, Mr. Rigg that no 'delay should take place in sitting up a Committeo of Inquiry into'the charge iteelt It was in the, uttorest of tho momber concerned and the' Government that there should bo no kopholo for a section of the publio or a section of the press to say that tho Council had put the inquiry oft. ...:■"...•■. ■'.■■.

; The Hon. J. Anstoy ( thought aa. addi* tion; should bo made to tlw motion that tho- : oommitteo should : report; at' (ho earliest possible date. :. ,; ' The Attorncy-GenoKil said / the 0 first duty/was to protect ;the dignity, of the Council, and' so ■ ho took the -.-'earliest' possible- moment of referring- the' matter to ri committee. Ho intended to ask the Council to accede to; the request of the Hon. Mr. JlAcdonald to give hint a conunittoo at the earliest poasiblo moment. ' The Committee of Privilege could sit to-morrow (Thursday) morning, and it eould report to the Council in the afternoon. They could then set up a Commit-too of Inquiry for the following day.. Ho wanted tho fullest'light thrown; on (he subject. : • . .

' On the motion of the a Committee of Privilege was set iin as under:—Sir,C. C. Rowem and the Hone.' Carricross, Sinclair, ' Jonkinsou, .Callah, Ormond, Rigg, Samuel, arid r tho mover. ■ The Comiuittoo will moot dt ,10.30 this; morning;.