THE PUBLIC PURSE.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 954, 22 October 1910, Page 6

THE PUBLIC PURSE.

DISSECTION OF TIE EBTIIATES. THE DEFENCE FORCE. lINISTERIAL DEFEAT BY ME VOTE SQUE KEESf DISCUSSIONS. LAND. SOISVEY DEPABTSViE^T.

:i / / ; /When 'the House', of ;r|/ resumed, its sitting's.; yesterday, ; ' it ~im-'. Jr: , "went into'; Committee'to fur/jij/fther' consider /.the :-The ~ i j/iPrime Minister: intimated /that:, he hoped' - ':'■.;.' !to/put' f through the balance, of the Esti-' ;,/,:; VmatesnffLahds : , Department// Defence :-/;;/' iDepartmenti /,:; Education/ Department, V;s'and/Tourist, / Commerce," and; Agricill////tural/Department;' at- the''sitting//;. A '://;<start/ was--made with -the.Estimates for £.//Jtbe/'Defence/bepaftment.;./;.;;/ , v ./"};;''• if";?.,/ , ;By/'ifcinarrpw/margin,of ,6ne it'was ;p/MecidedJto;feduce the salary of. the Staff {i|yOfficer to;the; the 'Giherai ; Staff' ': ';;;«s' an ! indication that officersi^.should.not i/;;//Teceive/-increases/of; salary /until .they .'';>; had;passed;their-.'esa'minalaons. / / :. ; in 'the/evening the. Prime-Mfn-: he'would, take/an;,oppor;Vtuhit'y..o,f, bringing -forward the reduced -/...imounf for reinstatemeht./.Membefs who ;//: aljseht 'should' fe'given'an'oppor-.; ;:\JV.'l^ty.:to/:VO^''bn','tn«'" : .qnesiaomiV--~//,!//'Mr.; ; T ./E./Taylor (Chnstchuroh North);, '-/.' /';/; !the; couhtiy/shbuld;'; be /done' '■: hy/|hose '-//n»mbers/who/attendM'the ! Ho>use. /He ■;'?.- .'ithoppd;members who/;had/.supported' the ;'-'■ ///////./: ;■'/;/::' r ///j '■ I£ !|fche/course/of;'further: remarks:;aii Urs "frl Bubsequeiit' stage^ihe, Prime/Minister' /■;'"..:■;■ intimated that, membersv.cOuld make';up. - ././itheir.'hiinds/that,he ', was going.'to finish; i';.;:'lthe balance }. of /tne: Estimates• at '.".the i:rzteittmg.";v/''F for' theiighti^/hft; .I.hope public-will , /::*emain'ahd "enjoyithemselves;:',I';}'■'////1 '; }' ■'//// ' •:v;i/|"W6l.will -be, with-jou," : pommented /./ ■^./prominent;Opposition/member, 'amid. ;/./:; 'if.-.. , -:\ ■'.] /,';// ■-:;./ ■; & ; EI>«TIEBVANaVsALARIES' :; 6Fr; ; 4;'. /;'//'// //■/(./;/// / : : / ; //////:,// /iz/ra'sked'swhether ; fe \K'^.:'tho ( ;.Counbil;:o'f ; J)efence/ wereitoYbe /j//,}abahdohed.'/^/ v v^-/;/;V/.////; :: '/ :/ : /.,i-'// : . ///''./^Mri^Alleri^Bfuce)/asked: for.partioii-' ,;■ i and' Qu.ar-:;.;i//,ttefmasif6r-General,':'aadrpirectt ;/// bance^'ahd?Coinmandaht Permanent ;/://lForcesi«;He": had;'heard -rumours' that' ///-f.HAvo'; different ofii.cers'c'were/in/the/.run- ■;. ■'•'.;: triihg ■•Jof ?the : 'ap'pointment.'of /Adjutants ;/L/''General;;;;;jThen,/;agaih; ; 'ho;; : TOuM ;./■ :/■: |;bbth Colonel V;Head/and. jof .Hume'. .like; to/know/what. was //■/-llto be Vtbe./position ,'of (the ,Chief; of, ;the. ;:,;/:/.feneral/ ; Staff.Vwhen;;.tb<B;m ' : f\, ;:;«ant:;arrived:/.'Bpthith'e'.staff"officer /to; '/'vithe.. Chief/'of .the: General 1 Staff; and/the I- :..;'/'fetaff '£':■ ;lhad Received '^increases' / /; salafyi; ?/■:? isaryV examination/: /Was 'the /office •;, of /';, ■ jOfficer /of /FoTtincatiohs. jz/vand- ?,/::/ ■ :4'J';^;sAtAß^pF;'cQLbw^ //' / /WMri/: ! S./ ; /E: /j.Taylor/: : . (Christchurch '///'NOrth)' cbhtoided.thS.tV there' were /some ;//./irmcrtesesV which ■:.. /,;. - jplaii«d:';:''./H!iy./'TOufl. ; //mbv'e'/'.;that''.the ;//';"Ealary:bf; the\Chief of othe" General (Staff >M K£62o)/be^rednced/by'£loo/ /This,wais //V- las a-.'pf oiest'.' against: any 'math 'connected ,?. I "■ hvith:'the/Defence Department 'receiving ;.;/,' .feore 'than; the'auaximum'/allowed ;ia the // /' «ase; :'qf / a; \ sbhoolmastef;/(£400): // There V-;-|was:no sense \ iii/}the'".'.way.';; 'm which /':/'jsalafies;-wefe l^^^allptted, : ,to public/officials; ;.:/>i|He";knew.,a' caseoovaf v a CivillServant'.who -.:; ,iwas : receiying...£l3o.. per ' aiumin./after" ;;^V|teveh;,years'/ ; ser'TOei,;Thatioffi ~ *,':' V smable^• through/ waat■of salary; : :-:/;;/|tb get married.',./':let: heVhad'tb/suffer >/; /', ftbe. chagrin. of; seemg;.- men,: in '■■: uniform,. /V'swhb/didvhot;do h.alf/as.mn'oh'/wbrkV-rer j//;/iceiving/:five^^ salary/ > ;;., ./'/•'>; .-//.The"; Prime .',.Mirii^iV'iaid-' i .-, , Hiat ;i ;..I ln *. ?/./ : )Chief.of'.the Genefal'/Siaff/was-in/the.' ■i ;! .■ "fpeTmanent;: employ 'of ffie'.'.■ Department.. ; ////His /position. was. next tto/f3iat I of .the ■; -tj) /'ilVTi'at' hi.B' 1 actual, desigr '..Jf.'";;matibri".w'oiild''he-'aftbr ttb .Commandant :'V '/(afrived/he': could, iaoti say./ : He was a I;// :'-Tery/valuable'officer. ; ? Thti ; duties of the' //..'//iFinanoe. Member 'would" have ; to' : be.' oaf-" ;///jrkd out/under the'hew scheme..' W/hen, ;:.'.:■ the ,;Cpminandant arrived ho; would ■ con-", /•/// euft him asi to the.method, hi whichthe, .'wholeof the administrativO'Svorki'was to ///: j3be'carried but.dMr,. Mabin;did his work ;,,•■; fweU./iThe.secbnd:military member, Col-.' ///ionel.Tu son; 'I had/returned./ to. .''England:;. ././fAs I regards; the;:position',; of '.Adjutant/' -';/. IGenoral^ : it'' :^was . still' vacant,'and .would;. /;)reriiain:open until the;. Commandant ar- ;...! jriyed.' - The ..officer./who. was /filling /the jr- .position had-not; received■ the appoint-, ;//. anent/ : / ■/,/ / :' ; ;:'/'.// r '■■'■ /".-'•;. ~'::/: /////,'Mr/ ; T: E.-Taylor: He:has' :been dis--~;-;,»cnssing the appointment'in;the press...;' //-,"..' Sir,. ; ;;;.r,/ithat'm!atter/in.//V/,;/ /,;;-' ; '; ; ///'" •:-.• y" ; v ;Mr.;Taylor..:, MT.-Fisn"er ; was/ciishierod. /;,:; ifor/such 'a, ;matter.:/- ■/■ /■ .-'.",' ■■'■''.'•/■':'..' ;v Quanfioatiphsfdrlncreaaw. ' J ;" Sir i Joseph: I recognise that, ; some c ■; ;.:•'. jpepple; 'have, attacked: this .officer/ un/•/.'Sairly. / : Hp .does' his work /very, well,'; ./,; iand like, other/people/he,'has'-got his- /: , .taeinies. I .will 'not'allow/any, officer, - /|whb is. doing -his' v/ork /well to. be, in-. ■''■•' fdirectry attacked.--- /. : ;■': . / /■/./ Continuing,, Sir- Joseph : :said 'that"as . toegards.the question 'of inoreasos of sal- /. ia'ries' and examinations' there was one. ;, iofficer. who' hadquaMed fof'an.'inorease 3>y ,'reason of the,fact that he had/serV/jvice. 'in South' Africa.; '■ There was , an :.;:;: officer in branch-who had not. /,, (passed the.examinatipn.or,did not have ;:,>. jserviee in South Africa. /He would,.like / ito have the'defence■ system.'carried on•//..'jclear 0f... pontics. /. : Touching upon the ;';-- jppsition of Liputenant Price (superin- - itehding officer of fortifications)-Sir Jo- ■ •'./' sseph'.said that he'was a very fully em-.' .'".. ployed .'ofneef. Ho did not think ,'effi-. :"'--'".'"cient- be; obtained for, tho: :.,'■. /.Department if the salaries, were.to be ''■:'■ {limited to those paid, to teachers. As i/', £ matter 0f.,-fact the salaries paid, for '••-/".. fcthe higher ofiicers werenot as large as ./Eord Kitchener had recommended. Offi- •:■".'■? jeers -could get "high salaries, in otiier '. (.parts of the world,/and we must pay . ftho same if wo, were to got brainy men.' : / • lOno of the officers whose name was mon- "'.'.. Hiioned in.connection with tho, appoint- ;.,..■': inent' of Commandant would not have /'..' «omb, for another/thousand' a year.'/ !' / House allowances were made to officers' /■•'in all parts, of the world, but in New :-: iZtaland the houso allowance was.to.be ;' /.made part of the salary except in the '; : . case of ■ the Commandant. .'lt was not; i. .' possible for one officer to. do.the.work i ; ''/ that/would be done by Lieutenant-C01;.,/ ;.,/ -.onel'Head and. Major Hume./" '.'.-.

Mr.: Taylor contrasted the house. allowance . of/the Commandant, with'.' the allowance of Pup shilling a night made .to.brakesmen ;oh,' trains.. In consequence; of'the low allowance the brakesmen had'-to carry their ( blankets! and bedding with them. 'l -.. . '.■. ' ; .Mr.-Alien (Bruce) did not thin];: that .'it ; was ■/advisable:' to reduce/ the : salary of the/Chief' of .the General. Staff. ./If the "Commandant-did not thinkthat it was; necessary to keep him iii _the .posi■tion to which, the Primo Minister had Alluded/he hoped that another position', would be found.for him./; /''■'.. ■ Mr./Buick (Palmerston North) claimed' that; schoolmasters could! be picked' Tip at. any street' corner/but' it was' a different, matter-when 1 it "came' to. select, a'man to a high military, office such as thai which Colonel.Robin occupied./ // The-Prime Minister said'that no other officer ./who'/had occupied the-•..-■ same position: as.'; Colonel Robin held / had done';;better '.work. /'. The increase which it was; proposed., to giye,;'him was well deserved., If the. Commandant did not consider; that Colonel Robin. was' ..required/to hold the-; position which would be."6qmvalent ! ;'.to'y:'sbcbnd':'in'/command, a -high/rwsition/wouldVbe'; found ; for Colonel■-; Robin. V ./.The /introduction, of officers "would..hay*? to .'cease if., it meant' that, colonial: officers, who ;had : :-dbne valuable:seryice;co'uld .hot be placed.-;V/.//' // ;;/';'///- /// ;/■ v- ;'.;,--.;- l^.'/The/'amendmeht-was .'rejected,by;,s4 ■voi^^(K)!8. : : : ..'::;:/.:-i,.'/, -r,-,/i:;/'r, ./'/ '/',

/-THEDIRECTOR OF/MIUTARY / ;/!/;//'/,//'/;;/;TRAININla.'/\ ' ;: ;'.'./'/ - /;</:■ COMPLAINT.)'; . t./Mr/Hogg'(Masterton) considered that ■the; high, military. officials'■ were: too well ■paid./As. a/protest:he ihoved/that,the ''salary v bf the' Director bf Military Training: and: Education;; (Imperial. Staff, Officer) , //which atabuhted': to, ; ; £6sQ,'' be reduce'd;,/by ,£so,'; ! ;-The'., salary -was 'equal to/that of : six,'cb-operatiye'workers/. ."I. ■'know," /continued.. s Mr.'/:;Hoggj';'""that these/'; officers' have; to.Jwallf• /"like""-- Uie-\ graph; :phores' 'when/.they;, salute// / (Laughter.). /Also /:I:vrecpgnise.;./that they ./have to wcar':an'immense,amount' of brass', 1 as. well; as..pipe.clay\.'E;haye':every respect for/those imported/ornanients, for'they, haye -to :. superintend their. /' popguns.". (Langhtef.)/; : '. /:. /• ///v/.-i. -■■■'.'/,./' ■■ -//; ;,.' Sir/Joseph.: I believe that this couri-' try /is." worth prbtectihg.-.//.',' : . /:./.-;-// .. /,/;Mr/;ißbg^:...lt/is'':a r; wPn^r i 'thirt .we; ;haveV survived-'-without'any;; .such .pro; 'tection./"////; •/ /"■//:'.- ; '// ■-'/;;.',' /■-/ '/': -.: The/Prime :,Minister 'went, on .to say, that' the .country had gone in for-an expensive/system/, of/"defence//. There must be anieflicient, staff/to.: administer: -it/;; ; /; v i : /',/////;;:/;;'':/'//;,/;';/''/' ■:-/.' ...'..Mr./Hogg''replied;'■ Qui hQ' thought .that/these; officers ,/wereover-valued. /He did. hot think; that/because .these officers, ' were/ the; imported. article/" they ■ should be,worth as much 'as-.two.members of' ■Parliament/ : ; /,, ;'■''.' ;';"://1/ ■ y-'.y-?~- v .\.' .//Replyirig.to Mr. G.'M..Thomson, the -Prime-Minister, stated 'that, the' official five 'years,;• and the?'couhtiy .was committed to the, ; .expenditufel/.//.:/;.t;/;.-"•-■'•",..'- : .■'--.•.• " /: Mr.:;Wilford:'F.o.b;'//(Laughter.) ■': ;''.':'.i:'. :, ..be : ,a' breach' ,'of /contract ito ; reduce /the sal-ary/'/.;''/.///://;''//-'.y. ;.:/,/ /^..////''"// -.:■■ Sir...Jbseph:'.,That'is /':;/:,' ;"" ; //Mr/-FishCT .twitted. l Mr!,.Hogg-as, to -his.'iown value:.-' Did. he' consider that he was/worth half ;,a' Cabinet Minister of three cp-operatiye workers, br'half a dozen; draught horses? If. Mf.. Hogg reconsidered--the matter /in-'; stead of' taking his honorarinin he might decide to :,pay ,a.,'salary, ; fbr;bping ;'allbwed -tb''obmp' l •■tb'/P^^a^nent. , ,■''■•/■''''■■.''■■''■.■■■■.'.•'- / The'amendment.:wa's/. } rejected/on the voices:/-./ ; ; /. / /"v^:''■'" ■• r '..''' '■;'.•'■,/' "/

/ SALARIES PF/STAp OFFICERS., ' f /'REDUCTI6N% ;; ONECASB''-^ r ; ../^-r ; ;-//V/;;CARRIED:, ;. / : : .r:-/-'. '■''/Mr; '■;• ; T: • : E/ : : Taylor'' > (Christchurch North) said'that if one wanted/to, find men worked; at high let him. go to /.the;';Post/Office. Sayings Bank, or the'telegraph cou/nter.'or the Post Office/ There'was.no suspicion/that;these men got off for half an hour: as; did the men in some' of .the/offices\in; the/Government/Buildings./ He .would.mo7e .to.' reduce 'th» salary.- of-thb;'staff, officer of the Chief of the 'General Staff (£325) by £25./;'//":/■,'/'/'' •/'!'"•',:■ .'"-, ';Mr. : - Fisher/;(Wellihgton'Central)/ .instanced the case: of a/very capable officer, who/ was brought out to New' Zealand/and who, spent twenty-five weeks in" the year in the .General Assembly Library...'This officer was,, willing., to work, but he could find no,work to do, and so he wisely" spent his time improving his mind. This, officer' was practically put on; the, scrap-heap while ,he was.in .New. Zealand. There was_ a feeling in the minds of thepublio that there was. utter overlapping in the Defence. Department,"or • ■ some men • - were neglecting, their, duty.,' ,One/could ring up the Defence Department without being- able.to find out where :mon were, aiid'in ; some cases it,was/impossible to find out when they had been in last or when they,were coming back. Mr. J. Allen (Bruce) complained that though there was a regulation that no officer should receive increaso ofpay or promotion without sitting for an examination, the different ■ officers to the Chief of Staff and Adjutant-General had received increases without examination. Officers and Their Examinations. The Prime Minister' said . that this officer had been in ill-health, and that it would not have been fair to have compelled him to sit for the examination. Until' ho •' passed the _ examination /ho could hot: get promotion of' rank. Mr. : Malcolm .■■•-.' (Clutha) emphasised the point that tho officers of the Department: should/not fail to observe the regulations. Sir Joseph said that, this official was doing the work for which his predecessor was. paid £575. .. "Mr. ff. E. Taylor (Christchurch North) ■ declared that the Primo' Minister's reply was quito ineffective. Mr. Poole (Auckland West) considered that .officers should not got .increases unless they had' complied with the regulations. He was one of tho members who was pledged to see that there was clean, administration. • Mr. Herdman (Wellington North) asked what tho country was coming to if it'were possible to ignore the regulations./ Sir. Joseph: What about your Public , Sefrice Board!.

Mr. Herdman: If a Public Service Commissioner in Sydney dared to do what you aro doing he would be dismissed by Parliament. The Prime Minister said that a General Order had been issued in regard to the matter, but it had been cancelled. This chargo of breach of regulations was therefore without foundation in fact. . ' v . / . Mr. 'Allen (Bruce) quoted regulations which provided that before an officer got increased pay or promotion ho should pass his examination. The memorandum that was rescinded was ono to the' effect that officers must sit for the rank that they then held. Sir Joseph replied that a later regulation provided that the examination was only, essential "if required." Increments were now dependent upon efficiency reports. , Was the Increase Justified? '■': Mr, _ Wright (Wellington South) I asked if this officer were better off I than'-other officers of similar rank. "Sir Joseph: I would be glad to hear of such a case. Mr. Allen said that he knew of such a case. Sir Joseph: Who is it? Mr.-Allen said, .that on the last occasion he mentioned a name the. Prime Minister, from his place in the House, threatened ; the man. ' Sir Joseph: It is the same officer that you named before. . Mr.. Allen: The. question is: Is. it true? Sir Joseph said that the officer was getting as much as' the : position was worth,.and had a gunner as a servant. • Continuing, Mr. Allen gave instances of Cases where he said men who held captain's rank and had passed their examinations, were' . receiving lower salaries than the' > staff officers. to , the Chief of the General Staff and the [staff officer to the adjutant-general. 'Mr. ,;T./ > E.; . Taylor : (Christchurch 'North),,said that,he was surprised to | hear from the Prime Minister ; that gunners were employed as servants to., staff officers. .If they 'knew it,. . the people.' would not ■ tolerate. gunners acting as maids-of-all-work to staff, officers. What right.had a gunner,to be ,a domestic 'servant' or housemaid?. It was most absurd. "."//' /':'' i, The Prime Minister replied that the use of men as, servants, to high' officials' was"'.world-wide;',".■' ■~-:■■•, ;,:/■.;:. "Die of Sheer, Indolence." ''.Mr.' Hogg (Masterton) -said .that officers appeared' to die' of sheer indolence. They all seemed to hang on qne another. .'■ It was ridiculous to/have a, little standing: ■ army '. hero . like 7 a machines-all; the, .officers 'dove-tailing into :one; another. (Laughter.),.'•'.■.//'Mr;;' T. ! 7<E.. 'Taylor '(Christchurch North) again '.'referred/to the. fact that gunners'were, employed as. servants -to f officers.;: It was/he said, an indignity tlio public- service.,. Did .these.: gunnersyhave; to pass an examination qualifying, themselves' for the .position of-chamber-maid?. (Laughter.) Upon :a 7 division:' the amendment to •reduce the salary of .the staff officer to. the,-Chief■•:of.the General .Staff was' carried.by : 3p. ; t0.29. : ;,;/; ;..'; , /For the amendment (30)— ' Allen •. ■'''..'. .Lang ' . ■Anderson-/ • / Luke /// -,;-'// Arnold . • M'.Laren Buchanan': //Malcolm •'■' , Buick ~,.'/. .'■•'. ..Nosworthy .■'.'; Dive ''/ • ."(v;; Okey : '-.-'■','."•' Duncan, : 'X ~:.,' ; Pearce, Fisher ' ■'...',"/, -Poole / '.'; . '.:■'■ : Guthrie '/;/•-/. Rhodes: ' "•■' Hardy,.,:.: ; 'Scott Herdman ", Sidey., Hemes.'■"■;'-.;.■:■.' /Taylor, T. -E.",■: ■ Hine; ~ ./;. Thomson, G. M. / Hogg.; " -:;,',' . .Thomson,; J... C.,/ Jennings -."'•'; ' Wright"/' ' '. ~ Against,the amendment (29)— .-■,... Brown : M'Kenzie, Hon. R. Buddo , Mackenzie, Hon. T. Buxton. . '■',■■ '.:■,; Millar ;.'..,; .;. Carroll::/''"/." Ngata '; ' Clark; '.'•;. Parata ■';-■ Oraigie./.,.-," ~' ,- Rangihiroa,■'. Davey Ross Ell 7 ' Y "/v / Russell / Field ■ .•/• ■■: ,'Seddon ' Glover, : . ■../ . Smith :/..;. ■,-'.■. Graham , ' ; ~ Stallworthy : •, Gfeenslade - ;..',. Taylor, E. H. '■'■' Hall- '/■:... jW-ard ;' Lawry, Wilfofd ■ .'..:' ,' Macdonald, ... GUNNERS AS SERVANTS. /SHOULD IT BE ALLOWED P.: ~" ■'■'■■Mr. : .'. : : /Taylor" (Christchurch "North) then moved; as,an amendment that the salary, of, the Staff Officer to the Adjutant-General (£330) be' reduced by £25, as an indication/ that the Committee was of opinion that no member of the; defence forces should be 'employed as a servant by any other member of the forces.;-.'.'..//-.'/,,,' ...' The amendment was 'rejected -by ,51 votes'to.l3. / : ! / PERMANENT FORCE. ' :: ARMS AND AmiijNITION} ' _,Upon the vote 'for '■ the, Permanent •Force, Mr. Allen. (Bruce) asked whether it.was, intended to make,provision in the Supplementary Estimates in respect, of, those'officers who' had 'passed tneir examination, but hadi not received increases. .';,.'.' ~ / <■ '■:.'. .'; The.;Prime';Minister replied that he could make no promise, as to what would appear on , the Supplementary Estimates.: ■,- ■■■.<•>.• : .Mr. ;.'.T.'., E. Taylor. (Christchurch North).' asked /whether' the' House was going'to got any information as to what Lord Kitchener said in regard to our harbour defences. It was generally understood that Lord Kitchener' had declared'that they, were obsolete. The Prime Minister said he could not make a statement from Lord Kitchener's confidential .report on the matter. The, Government intended to So what was necessary. The items would appear in the Public.Works Statement: Mr. Poole (Auckland West) inquired whether any 6teps had been taken under tho defence "movement to enrol naval volunteers. '• ■ Mr.. Fisher (Wellington Central) Urged '. the: ,'necessity : .for, an adequate reserve 'of . ammunition, etc., in the South Island. . The Prime Minister, in reply, said that .there was an adequate reserve both as regards small arms and ammunition. Beyond . that,' ho could make no statement. . To Mr. Poole's' question, Sir Joseph I said that ho would consider any applications that came to hand. He was not going to give any indication as to how many htf was going to. take. THE CASE OF MAJOR HUGHES. HIS VISIT TO ENGLAND. Mr. Allen (Bruce) said that he would like to know who was the A.A.G. at Nelson. ' Sir Joseph: Major Hughes. Mr. Allen: Is.ho in. Nelson? Sir Joseph; No; he is on his way there. Mr. Allen: What was he doing in London? Why did ho go? Did ho get. authority to go ? Ho was • appointed to his present position at Nelson, but he has never been there. The Prune Minister said that Major Hughes was appointed A.A.G. at Nolson two years ago. Bcforo he left Now Zealand he got leave of absence. , This leave was afterwards extended to enablo him to visit England. He paid his own passage money to and from England. Ho remained on full pay because ho was attached to an establishment for training purposes.. His sahxy was £250 jjer annum. ■

Mr, Fisher (Wellington Central) said that Major Hughes had done .what no other officer in Now Zealand . would havo dared to do. Sir Joseph: Your facts are all wrong. "The Prime Minister's 'Hedging.'" Mr. Fisher: Well, will you lay the correspondence beforo the House?; ' Sir Joseph: That is a different mattor.. Mr.'Fisher: The right hon. gentleman, is "hedging."' Mr. Allen (Bruce) moved that the item "A.A.G. at Nelson £300" be reduced by £10, as an indication that if an A.A.G. was paid he should serve as an A.A.G. From what he had read Major Hughes got leave to go to Australia. He didn't believe that when he left New Zealand ho had leave to go Home. He might have got the additional leave whilst' in Australia. When he gpt Home he applied, for work. He was told.that nobody knew anything about him. He was satisfied that he was not sent Home to take a course of training.. Leave and pay, were manoeuvred. He ' didn't believe , that any officer should be allowed to take French This;officer.had got a course of training at. the expense',of the Dominion. . ■ The Prime. Minister .replied that Major Hughes' got. leave / of.: absence when he applied for it. While he was in England he passed his examination in the school of musketry.,. The amendment was rejected by 39 to 22. '.-■ ;' ;.'.: TARANAKI KITCHENER CAMP. : WHAT CAUSED THE,TYPHOID? ; l. ■ Mr. Okey (Tarariaki) wished to move as an/ameriflment that/ the ' vote of, £10,000 'for,camps should be reduced by £10, as ah indication of dissatisfaction 'in .connection, with .'the outbreak of typhoid,fever through the drinking of bad water at a Taranaki camp. Sir Joseph: You can-make, your mind easy,, for the , vouchers have gone through. ■-..■ ■'..; ;;' . The. Chairman- ruled lie''amendment out bf order, on the' ground that' the matter /related to the vote'., in, regard to the Kitchener.camps, which was' in another section.:.//.. ■ '..' The Premier said that the Board,of Inquiry had found that.the. disease/was not contracted from the camp-water supply, . but; suggested that it was- frdm water on tho hills. The' Government had no legal liability, but vouchers had been sent to the men who'were "affect-' ed..:'. ; ( ,/" ; ■//:" :■■,' . ■;■, Mr. Lang. (Mannkau) moved .an amendment that : the. vote'for, camps of instruction; etc., should be; reduced/by £1 as .an indication 1 thai' wbeh cainps: of training .br-'courses _,of instruction' take place hetter provision-■ should., be,made for'thbse who are called out.'// . ' •

Mr. Okey "(Taranaki)- emphasised the point, that the' authorities were, responsible; for the/health of'" the men of., the march, as-well as'in• camp.' - ■ '•■ /' •The Premier, said that all the water at the camp, was officially ■ passed'; also, that. the/men nere instructed to: fill their ' at/camp. -, Alleged Neglect ati Camps. ' . 'Mr.' Malcolm; (Clutha)'; said it' .was. small satisfaction; to the/men',who had suffered, for: the. Prime, .Minister^ /to quote thp' regulations. only too common an occurrohce;'* that..; the•'" provision's for watering the men 'and'horse's' were neglected. ."-The arrangements" of the superior 'officers . were 'not. always satisfactory. :.;'lf they could not do their work- properly, they should'be got-rid of. If we were called; to. war tho whole force .would, he predicted, go'smash in a few weeks because of the lack of these arrangements. , Mr. Jennings/ (Tanmarunui) : said he did. not-see: theuse of. pursuing tho matter how that the had said that these men would be paid. If this decision had been come. to before, nothing would have been said on tho floor of ;tho' House..,. '';" .'.•Mr. .Allen ((Bruce)' asked: if civil servants who! were Territorials who go into camp under,, tho new conditions would have their allowance stopped: He had been' informed that this ,was so. He thought a civil 'servant 'should get the, allowance an Ordinary volunteer or Territorial .got.;.;lt, waß very, hard on cadets. ' . / ' The Prime, Minister."said' 'they,/would allow , r ii civil'.; servant //.to' receive his full . pay, but/he/would ■ have to pay his;4s.' a day into the Department. Without this,/ with the great number of men concerned, the proposition suggested by Mr. /Allen; was too 'big;///. /;/, /'.//..../"//;.■';;;/ • -',■ - ■/■ ; . Mr/ Lang /(Manukau),-. reverting /. to the TafanaTd camp,,-said the medical officer had recommended that the/water should be boiled, and this had not been done..'---/' ',;/:' ■' .'". : : :: :.- ;" " ■ v/./-. ''■'•.' "■' The .motion ; that the • item be reduced was lost on the voices. ,//'

/ ATTENDANCE AT CAMPS. NO' EASTEk MANOEUVRES 'NEXT' ■■■'.'"' ..,, ,;. : .';.YEAR." : '..:.' ,'/ -Mr. Allen'; asked if/there were to be any. Easter; manoeuvres this 'year, and if there weie to/be any' more daylight parades. //, ■'. ..'■■'...■•• . • The Prhjao Minister -.said /that' it was not intended ,tb : continue ! . daylight' pa,rades. ■'■'■ There would, be no; marioeuvies.'at Easter.- .'''■'•■■'..' Mr. Allen I ,'asked how,long the men were' to remain in camp. The shortest period mentioned-so far-was six days, and'if this "was. insisted on, he thought there might be difficulties if ■ men. were compelled to sacrifice six days of their civil employment, at this stage/'/;although it would be all.right later under the new scheme. Mr. Fisher, (Wellington Central) asked as to what condition tho. Department tfas in as regards the.'military census thab was being taken. He', alsowished to know whether officers would havo to equip themsolves, or. whether the' Department would equip -them. The Prime Minister", said he was awaTO of the difficulties in regard to the encampments,- but they' had to do the best they could. The men would bo advised in' ample time, so that they would be ready for anything that was decided on. If men'did not attend the full six days they would get no pay. ..

Replying to Mr.. Fisher's /queries, the Prime Minister said he' could ;not' say whether the military census would be 'completed by the end, of the year. Area officers would ■ require to pay for their own uniforms.' He preferred .to issue regulations as to the" territorials' uniforms. ...

COMMAND OF JUNIOR CADETS. MAJOR M'DONALD'S APPOINTMENT, CRITICISED. On tho item Junior Cadets, Mr. Hardy moved that the salary, of the Commandant, £450, be reduced by £25, as' an. indication of dissatisfaction at the conduct.of this Department. He thought tho camp business , for , the cadets was a great mistake, and he would like an assurance from "the Prime Minister that the camps would be stopped. Mr. Luke (Wellington Suburbs) - did not think the amount down for the Commandant was too much for a man who put his whole soul into the work. Mr. Herdman (Wellington North) asked why tho Commandant was responsible to the Education Department and not to the Minister for Defence. Mr. Fisher (Wellington Central) emphasised the danger of having an important branch of the defence system separated from the control Of tho Defenco Department. He was very strongly of opinion that tho junior cadet department, should be under the control of tho Minister for Defence,, not tho Minister for. Education.-' This ouestion.

lay, at the_ very foundation of the. system —tho junior cadets were the very corner-stono of the scheme. ! The Dunedin Fiasco. Mr. Thomson (Dunedin North), supporting : the motion for the reduction of the- salary, instanced the fiasco which, took place in connection with tho cadet review before Lord Kitchener at Dunedin. Tin's was duo, he was convinced, to tho circumstance that the officer commanding the military had nothing to do with the arrangements. ;' ■'•-.. I ■■ :_ The Prime Minister said the trouble in Dunedin arose simply because the commandant had nothing to do-with the arrangements. In the other centres where the commandant had chargo everything. worked splendidly. Ho was opposed t» the proposal, \ which he thought would be a great'error. He had refused to put the junior cadets in the Defence Act. Thero had been no juiiior cadet camp since the present commahdant took office, and it was not intended to hold any for them: There was no increase in this officer's salary on the Estimates. He thought it was about time that the attempt to detract from work done by some officers was discontinued. The commandant had: already saved £3967 a year since ha had taken cbarge, although there were nearly double the number of- cadets now. Further, he was an enthusiast in the work. "Department Would Get Out of Hand." Mr. Jas., Allen (Bruce)'■ gave it-as his opinion that the junior cadets department, being, run solely by the Minister for Education and'.the. commandant of would get out of hand; it had absolutely -no • connection with the Officials of the-Education Department. ,Referring: to the .'question of cadet camp's, he quoted tho'regulations of the cadet department to' show/that -battalion camps, wore to be held: , ,/The 'Minister:' For officers only. ... , ; . Sir. Allen: How'.can you.havea battalion camp without, cadets?-,. How,are you' going to', train officers at these camps if you.have nothing.to train them with ?, However ; I ain glad to have' .the Minister's'definite assurance.': that no camp's'wiri.beheld./ '/:.;./• •■'.'-, \ / ' Proceeding, Mr. Allen; said; that : it. looked, as/if the ,commandant, of. the cadots ; had in his, niind the creation •of a;.miniature, army, and to that'he .wasstrongly 'opposed. / Quoting Lord Kitchener's .report, Sir./Allen/ said ''that there •. was '. the strongest -possible, necessityfor a cbirtihuPus/system-'from first, .to. last,.; aid'.there,should be,/ as Lord Kitchener' had indicated, some supervision of the cadets by an inspecting officef of.tho Defence' Department. '

Was There Political Favouritism? / '" Mr. Allen/a'sked. wha'tithe/'salaryof the previou's'.coramandaht of cadets was" / The.; ;Pfime'Minister said he. had not .the figures at 'hand. ■'■ , ; ■ ;'.;:■•;•' / . l nß*> : he thought' it was : ±.370,-, and .why, he. asked, should there be this increase? . Could Sir Joseph say that politics were -absent altogether' from/the-appdintmeht? ~ '.' ; , .Sir Joseph :.;This is'a,miserable'business.' ,'"■" " / .'•'•' '■' :/", . It is a'miserable business to, allow an officer to be promoted over the heads/of 'other ; officers; in "this 'way.' ,_ The Prime/Minister : rose in defence of .the commandaiit; and /expressed the' opinion that the officer' in Question \jras attacked -in a,most' indecent way" every time the matter came up.' .Tliis particu--lar matter, had'.been',-, before" the.House several -times,-.' and .Mr; Allen had made charges ; in' : writing;abbut',him;some time' ago. -.'.■' ;' ' .■;-'. : .■'.■; '-..//■ ■■■ ■■ Mr. Allen:; f'l asked you ;to. make, inquiries." ■ •"'•. :/.',, / ; ' ■ Continuing;:;the, Prime Minister/ said :I V!?. ?med ' to h ™ tbat ' tlle obief. object of the Opposition /was to dog the heels of every man-'they thought was opposed to them. They attacked a man in the lowest down way possible. Theofficer in question had. ( never applied for.the position. It .'was'.bffered /to/ him, and he had never sought it".in' any way. ' Mr. Nosworthy: ."Who/'offered .it'to him?" .-. ■■■■■:-..';■■■'■

How the Appointment Was Made, i : The J>rime' Minister said' the' Minister tor Education had, made the offer because he thought lie'was the most qualified., -mani'-for; it- .He was ' afraid' -members of :-the J Ogpbaitiori allowed "themselves -to ,ibe' made tools ''of''by 'people outside..,' .There: was. : such a;thing• as decency in: politics.. This 'officer was doiimgood work.-: All;that,;was'wrong was that he. happened .on one -occasion to .give a-member, of ! the ; Opposition a bad beating.in,a. contest:" Mr.: Allen:.' "We are not' attacking a. Man—we are attacking the principle." ■• Continuing,: Sir Joseph' Ward said the officer had .been;, maligned; ; by ) different' people :.who; ihad.; used ■: members of \tne Opposition to attack-him'in the House. As' a:. matter, of .fact, tlie ■'. officer ■ in question had not been' inclined: to tako .the appointment, at -first. : If .-any man asked : him a- complaint, he would ask that he should allow his name tpbe iised, otherwise'he. would not. take any- action.' ".It'.looked almost'as if members '.. were'., being., used -as - gobetweens of spies.' - - : Mr. Allen:/"L have, heard: they ,are | about." . ' "'.■' ; '.;•".•'■'.. "This officer," concluded' Sir Joseph, had been.attacked on. the:floor of the I House: on every Estimate ifor the six ori'seven years:" ■ - i.:..,,' ./..'■'■. ..The, amendment.„to ' reduce the'-iteni was lost by 44: votes to 22.'.'',. ;,;'.- ... PLEA FOR A JOINT SYSTEM. ■ ' .AMENDMENT, NEGATIVED.. V . Following' .'upon - this division, Mr; Fisher (Wellington Central) moved.that the same item- be reduced.by ; £1 as, an indication 'that "iho,. whole system, - both Cadets and Territorials, should be coordinated; and made one.system." ;: The, amendment !'was rejected by 43 votes 'to, 23. .'■.■. ,: SCHOOL SHOOTmC. BATTLE OF THE TAKGETS. '.'.'■ There was some discussion on the question of cadet shooting.'. " Mr. E. H.,Taylor: (Thames) drew, attention to the'question; of school targets.. He. declared that Fletcher's, target was insuperably better than Hazard's target. To his view it was wrong for Major M'D'ouald to have stated to school committees- that'he preferred .HazarcFs.'target. . The -Prime Minister said, that'great care had. .tor be taken in the selection of a' target. Pressure had been-at-, tempted to be brought to bear on the Government in : the matter.' Ho would point out"that, it might not be advisable to/adopt such a'system of target shooting, in, schools. No hasty, would be arrived at in the ; matter. Mr. Poole (Auckland West) said that in his opinion Fletcher's target would "fill the bill." "■''".'... ■■ The Prime, Minister said that'the Government had to consider the matter from a bnsiness point of view! He did not" know why ho should be asked to accept any' particular target. Mr. Hardy (Selwyn) said that the cadet team which won an important shield recently, trained with air-guns.. It' was his opinion that miniature: ranges with air-guns should- be installed at schools.- He did not care what target was adopted. _: . DSscussion on. 'the • point was not continued. "MADE IN NEW ZEALAND." POSITION AS TO AMMUNITION. Mr. Allen (Bruce) asked whether anything had been done in the matter of interchange of officers between the Dominion'and. othor parts of.the Empire., .He wished also to know wliat waa the.

position in regard to the harbour • defences at Dunedm. Some details should be given as to the position in regard to tlio sending of officers to England. Mr. Fisher (Wellington ; Central) inquired wlicther.it was proposed to establish an ammunition factory for the South Island.

Mr: Malcolm (Clutha) asked who was the author of the history of the contingents.

The Premier, enumerated'the- officers who had been interchanged, with officers at Home. As regards Dunedin harbour, the Government was carrying out Lord Kitchener's recommendations; He would not give the details publicly, as they were of a confidential nature. : It was not proposed to erect, an ammunition factory on the Government's own account. It was hoped that "another agreement would be completed with the Auckland company shortly.'. The Government proposed to retain the right .'.'of. purr chase of the existing factory—a condition that was in the last contract. The author 'of the history of the contingents was Lieut. Beamish, of Wellitigton. . _,-/' Mr: : Fisher then asked whether'the Premier would inquire if the Auckland company could see its way to enter upon the manufacture of 'other, kinds of ammunition..... The company : was . now making very superior cartridges!. '>■' The Premier .said that he would be very. glad ■to .look into the . matter. At ibis stage '(1 a.m.), the balance of the Defence Estimates were passed. LANDS AND SURVEY. ; NOXIOUS WEEDS ON CROWN . LANDS. -■ : ' '.WANGANUI.RIVER SERVICE. "'■'. When;the estimates for Lands and Survey were. Teached, ; '.'"';;•., The Prime.Minister,, in reply/to Mr., Buchanan, said 'that', a portion of ■ Kapiti Island still belonged to.the Natives, but the .island continued.to be used as a! sanctuary, for native birds. ' ,■..-'',■'

, .Mr. Hemes (Tauranga) .'said, that there was a general complaint, throughout the ; North. Island ; that Native, lands and ! Crown lands' were badly infested with noxious, weeds) which, were spreading 0n,.'t0.-.the;properties';of private individuals., ,;. ; '7.; ; •"..'•' ■''. ■''~.-■,'-,'■

Mr.. Anderson--:(Mataura) "-■ declared, that, weeds, were-proline, on',worked/out 'liush-.afeiß-'iri..'..t]ieu'SoutU.-Isliiid. '"■•

:■ Mr.- .Buchanan .(Wairarapa) ; .declared that the guestion : ;of the eradication-of noxious.weeds on Crown lands, and Native .lands should,'.receive 'the' earnest attention of the .Government.' .He :'was informed that nothing in,this direction had '..been., dqne-'thisi. : ' year. ; , in ./localities where, formerly "the . necessary ..step's were, taken.;'., ■.':":' J . ; ; .-v ■ ■.; ■-"."

Mr. .?eaice, (Patea). referred to the subsidies in connection with the " Wang3nui.'River:service.',,He..wished, to know, : the -; owner' .was'. bound down 'to,' a ifair -scale, of. rates;' ■•; • ;;■/■:■''.

; The, Prime ;Minister said that' 1 if the .weeds ;oWall ;the '. Crown.'lands .jvero.to be coped-, with it .would take,. a > very, large-sum..'; As the Wariganui Kiver service,.. the' .'.'Government,-.was asked to contribute too much to secure stich as'was desired. ;; - :i l' ;: . •'When The Dominion: went -to, press the land. Department's.Estiinates .were still';uader consideration.;'; : ';. :.•'.;'.•■ .-•'■'',-":