A NIGHT ON THE ESTIMATE'S.

Dominion, Volume 4, Issue 936, 1 October 1910, Page 6

A NIGHT ON THE ESTIMATE'S.

RETRENCHMENT DISCUSSED.

THE HEYES CASE AGAIN.

When tho House of Representatives kyesterday afternoon it immediately ' into Comriiitteo of Supply to furc /;■..:• .: ther consider the Estimates," those in •0/, oon nec tion with : the/Department'; of Fi-; 4"', -V'.> ; nance being taken. . •. . • : . , , The PRIME MINISTER, replying to said/that/the/secretary to Wis#'? .'ho Treasury/ was getting; £100 extra account or .his position .as super--sa® ? and

/ that, the increase of ,£IOO in'tho.'salary in/tho. .case. of.. the' a;ssistan't-secretary ;'v'.''.'."was.-due-to promotion. '. . f ;'. Air T. E. TAYLOR (Chnstelrarch Wy,; •'^orth)" moved that'- tho salary-.of tlio •be/reduced;/b;y ; £100.;. .'I !He'. said-, that he would move' for. the on/claries; ~v were',- no ■ doubt deserved; ■but ■ others : /!.'. •' jwere .not. deserved ai. all. Officials at r-./-r . ; ithe heads, of Departments were able 'impress'.Ministers/ whilst.Kif::smaller ; salaried- officials ' tried/to -get/into , con;, pj with; sairio'' Way; It;,ha(l^ ; tp\ /b© -remembered :that gr,'/ : /'-. thero.wero nuinhers. of men in'this coiinr p.,''.jtry who did not receive in! 0110 year. ;.-''.the amount 1 of:this increase.- ■:i/ ' , The PRIME MINISTER said that Mr. j : was', wrong.'.in .assuming -that |^s^.-^iibo";siriiuer; S/'oeived-' /considerationv"./-There ,■ were';, 50 $Si§kfi'officials' 'in ' •the/ Depirtiriemt/ receiving; k'.;./.,;Wnder £300 i who wero to' receive- . inS;//-"/';/:- 'icreases. of from .£lO to £25. He mi"ht if.. spoinfc:oufctiliat .the-predecessor in 'oinco; VW.?//So^ho;official whose: salary .was now in®^J>f?fluesttidn'/was";n6V.' filUhg/a/ppsitidn'.for; •^•/V!.v/,- < . .paid.., He would/also like to' point out ; ; '^yhpse^■ l;i"; / salary.; was '-less ? than..' £300 / per/ annum s Mr. 'ARNOLD (Dunedin -.Central) -.d®., IS 't'ihad not. received, increases in' the same proportion;, as'., the' higher . paid officials.: tprotested? agairist;ithe/delay : in/ihe 1 |%SjsS : classificati6ri,v^^of//some/Vof/Zthe/ Depart-/ jback isessioii; ['/:.' .; /ißiri.:.open secret.that, some of thorn were l/^i^rf/iclissififed/^rior-^'to/iastsession. 1 Ho as/to/why v ;the;]ista.' •;,/• ■ /./dii/q'uestion were being held' back.. •- .. '/ Is There Favouritism? ;L n -Mr lIERDMAN (Wellington North) y r Z.-said that thero ;was a constant, reiuct/janco/on.' the part ,of ' tlie Government' •:•;'//.•. (to; givo,.any .information in/regard to |^/^'^;ltfe;,nianiiihg/of-the /pubhc/service;, /He; K^W^jw^dvlike^to/^ijrtiut'.-li^'the'Qassi/; .fication' , ActZ hadjheeh/ih; force ; for;-sbme; ; I < A pomt of order by the Prime Mm|'/;.;n ./. ister tliat'.'iuembers.must'confine' tliemSelves to' : the item in question' was' I^'/?- '•v hipheld- by the Chairman.; - ; /;//■/// iv'/f;; /. : ' i ".Proceeding, 31r.-; Herdman said that |p!!Z^/ttt,;'jrasZyeryv4esifable;;^ r>/'.;•/.'• should be./ well manned. v Ho foii/instance, that some/officials |v // ; hot .adequately remunerated... The; |-;Sy/// : a-s/to the total, increases in the . varf Departments/; were//iiot explicit

•-' -Again the Prime Minister.complained t * i fthat tho discussion was going out-side | ithe item. 'Mr.Herdman,'added that he underkv istcod-that-\other ofßcers in tho same had not' .received.'the;; same: P®'/ as-the. assistant-secretary'; |V Mr. WILFORD (Hutt) said that ho i.-' anight * support. tho., principle i winch ■■ Mr. \ had enunciated, mit he nould t 'where tho increase was warranted, t ' I Mr. HOGG (Masterton) said that the i ' [policy seemed to be for tho salaries of [ . r - [public servants :.to go up -by leaps and (bounds when the officials got high' up I fin the service. <' 1 i The PRIME MINISTER said that it ['.''v'J ' :.;was absolutely, contrary to fact for any'one to', say. that : 'the .Government .did not after Jtheiinterestk:;6f 'smaller j.'iT.vp.- i ipaid officials. - No.'increase.l' had ,- been' Igiven, in..the'case of/the; higher paid I {increase: in <particulaf;^the //increase!'/.was, go;'>f/v\veU : merited.';/':^ [vsy,Mr. FISHER. (Wellington Central) Pk-v i/^clared:that:,-.there;.'were:,'; numerous, K,*: •-" cases in'/the . public, serricoi where offij.., .- ,- cials 'who did . not receive a living wage f-, i-;. thad not- had -an -increase* for' years..- *. -i [■■■■ Mr. WRIGHT (Wellington South) ;a; high ft-.-Jiaid officials, .rccoivcd increases "rather ' !?® eausc they were - intimate' with the :--.'3llinisters.- -.- '-.;.:v

i • > >An Allegation of Laxity. rv ~ . -Mr. T. E. TAYLOR paid, that there '• -. ; .®i a ? a g le: it degree of .laxity in comiec- , ftion with various. Departments. He pi-> .;fwould:hko tho Prime Minister to say • i.-:.; whether , there were; any. high salaried: officers' in ' this,- Department who went. , work ; and left;: their (work' just: /when ■ ; - ttey liked. He thought with Mr. Hogg should be a. maximum- ;sal- /;.' /{';.iry:.fixed. In regard to defence,., a v~; ffalso- standard of, living, was -being, esjtablished in New Zealand.. It was all, f-.i 3junkum _to say .that even:in: one .case -v. an ten high officials-did the hard work '-' . ;. iEhere wore in the Treasury Department -/some officials: who' did 'not do' 2s. worth t :-.. . : .of work ..per day, -but, drew very high salaries.. . t_ ' The PRIME MINISTER rep Fed that f'-ivS'-/v.-the vote for this Department had been rreduced by over £1300 in two.years. If there had been no retrenchment -in- tho j//fv- /service the: Estimates as a .whole. : ,would ,-'. / have been /£GO(),000 more than was the case. As regards ; the question of classii/r'/ fication, he wished to. say ; that tho , .scheme' had been dislocated - owing to k'iVu the retrenchment. 1-Ie hoped that it | .. .would- be ready t:> put in force next b- ; . : session. .The great bulk of-the'officials - , desired classification jj/ ho; would iiot /. .■, dony that classification',--had .disadvantages .as well as benefits. There wero -. - fewer complaints ; of favouritism, in De-' L. -- - partments which, were: classified.-. He' . -.Knew of no complaints of laxity., in • the !.. ' • matter of regulations :in the Treasury [ -. ; Department. ;'-'//;'7; /V/ ■ //,-■ ;; ; /. - ■ Mr. ALLEN .(Bruce) contended, that :' ' .the only way in which the . alleged ro--trenchment could be accounted for was I'/;. • rthat tho Prime-/Miiiister',had not mado ' if.-/:.', .the average increase in tho ordinary de-: f part-mental expenditure and now con- !;; / / ,/sidered that. ho had mado a saving of // /.': that amount. It was- the nicest bit of ; trickery in the way: of retrenchment he' i.. : /■' ■ Jiad over heard of. 'Where would busi- |\ , iiess people . get to : if .they/ conducted I'/;' ~ •'.their businesses in that way?•-.

f.-' (''Trust the Government." i. Mr. BROWN (Napier) expressed tho f--' '•:■ . -view,'that members/'should trust, the j-;://,. ' Government in the matter of the salarc. /,-'jes paid to the Civil Servants.. /./■- !. ■ - . Mr. T. E. Taylor: Wltat aje you paid !.. . for? ' ,;-n ' /'/ -. -. ■

INCBEASES OF SALARY GRSTICISEO.

RAILWAY EMPLOYEES' GRIEVANCES.

' i Mr. HOCrAN (Wanganui) said thathe would, support.' Mr. 'Taylor , if he moved item- by only fleas'. an. | ihdicatiorirthat.'big.'inerea.se& should' net, /be given .in the case of big . salaries. ■ i>: The-amendment, by MrTaylor to roduce. the item by .'£loo was rejected-by., 44 votes -to. 1(5; an<J- a. further : amendmerit by'the.'same, member,;, to reduce it; by -£50 j\vas* ; reject^!;by 40 votes to 16. Mr. ARNOLD (Dunedin . Central) tlieri .moved that the vote be. reduced by; :£1 as ;an indication 1 that more consider a-:, -ti6ri'.Vs'hduld/.'be';;given. . "in 1 : the ' case \of lower-paid public servants.. v • Tho PRIME MINISTER repeated that every consideration . /was .Vbeing shown', to 'officials in'the;''• lower-paid; gradesi. It was not a fact that the retrenchment .was not; real; ; ... ;--■/;.;/■'/' ' Mr.: Alien:; I; don't think -that it was genuine. . ' ' .//""/ '/, /*/':,, . : Sir-Joseph: Well,;you cannot.know../ ■ Proceeding,; Sir /J<mjh;' said 'tliaiij .it' ' was true ; somevnew;ipfficials;. had been •fresh* ! needed,' owing toother factthat the; niileage •; of;. Till-, ways was increasing. >. . . , , • .. , '"Mr.; Homes: How then do you : ac-; count .'for' the/reduction/ill :the„mamteu-;.; ■ahce . the'riiilways ? (Laughter;) ; Sir Joseph i . Wait .'oill wo get oil the railway estimates. 1 ■ ~ ;?SM r .'|;HAN AN ;i (Invercargill);. saidthat tiiero 'should'be-a: system of promotion, ; by .'meriti;'. Under;';the;; ; preseut'. system/ officials'/suffered/bycoin/-' parisonwithtliG. heads of Departmenta. If a: man wanted 'promotion ho. had tocome;to Wellington., ./.>■■,.///-//;.'/ A Warm Exchange. A, further plea by Mr Hogg, on behalf' ' ofjvvthe-rlower-paid officials, drew .from /t&/Hon.il./Mackenzie/tbe;retort that. ho -remembered'; occasions Mr. Hogg 'voted against;.an. .increase of £10 ; tb/a-low-paid/official, and . supported ,'a'n ■ increase/of: £2000' in tho case of the salary ofrtlie-.Governov. : "I have always voted consistently," 'remarked; : Mr. ; ;Hogg. , ■;: v;He : went. on ,to. say with ebrisiderable/warmth' that; he had never been a political' acrobat. 1"I have never;',', :lio proceeded, ."jumped from one sido of ;the House to the other: I'.have/never j ;pririciElos '-or/. my votes.,:, I challenge him (Mr^-Mac-kenzie) to say .-that, ho has'not done so; 'iri'd'-^most':flagrant, niariner/rin.a manner. lSdiich/M'arcel^ ; 'ahy : ;bther;!lpersoh ; ;eithbr 'inßidflVo^,;:Outiida,''tHp l :H6use^ i 'wiDuld•'■a'W.■ Tho amendment was rejected by 30 votes to 23.' : --'v ; ( For the Amendment (23). ,'iUleTL'."' .' :r ty ,; V> -Lang". ," . Anderson Laurenson Arnold M'Laren ; Clark '' v ■ .'vni slalcolni '} yy/i '';. y Dive Newman Duncan, 'J. Okey :PisheirParata. : .y? Hall Poole Herdman ~ ;. v : Taylor, T. E. Hino Wilford Hogan Wright Hogg ■ '• Against the Amendment (30) Brown M'Konzie, R. ■ v Buchanan , Mackenzie, r T. .: Buddo Massey Buxton'■ v.: ~ . Millar , ~,i Carroll ' . . Ngata' Ciaigie Rangihiioa Davey , Reetl Dillon .. ■' '■■ ■ ' Rhodes Duncan, T. ' Ross /Forbes ' . . Seddon Greonslado ' • Smith.. .;,'../ Hardy .• • /'. Stallworthy. •. .. Hemes :: r , ' Taylor, E. H. ■ Lawry. 1 , '• v • ■■■:■• ' Ward . , Macdonald . : Witty.

THE RETRENCHMENT SCHEME. ' WAS IT REAL? , Mr. HERDMAN (Wellington North) then moved that-tho.-total;votei for/■ the D6p'artment/be'reduced'by £.5;. as'/ari, in-' '.dipation.■'.tfiat ; try was entitled to moro. definite parti,pillars of - the' economiesin l tho' public service during tho past year; ■ "/-Speaking .; to''; his; ..aiaendmeiit, Mr. Herdman said that.no.'definite and, sat-' isfactory details .had-.yet/been given as ;toVthe alleged Tctrenchment... . It . was truo that -on- one,occasion the Premier had- given , some , figures, but they did not .disclose :the' ; particulars to which, the :bountrjf House and t ; Ke :country : were, entitled , to tho names, aiid the salaries, and; the Departments fit.regard to' the, officials.'^'ho.had. been , retired, p also'-.the .names of all . officers who'/ haS /been' appointed to the public service since the" policy, of retrenchment commenced,;-the positions .to 'which they the salaries they, wer'e Mceivingi-y-It; \vas not necessary to'-argue the .question;for- : the members of Parliament'^-were. ,tKe...trustees','of. the. people. / The Bcant"' infomatipn; that had'i.been /supplied:, so far had led tho House //arid ;.the .Country-, to:' the .conclusion/that - the .retrenchment / polioy that had ibeenv pursued, was a pure fic,tion./ ■/ If-it/were .title ;that some 1 ofiicers had.; been- ; dismissed, and others had ,appointedrto, their iplaces, no : re.trenchinent - had -been- effected ,at all.' Names Not to be Disclosed. :: Tho PRIME: MINISTER said that? he had come to the .conclusion/that, nothing would , satisfy.-Mr. . Herdman, who now affirmed, that; there - had'/ been. practically no retre'nchrt'.ent at all. ; ' Mr. Herdman:':We don't know..• .''-' Sir;-Joseph-:' You ,must be very badly informed. - '- - " ', ! Mr.-;. Herdman I The documents ..don't show it. : ;''/ ; /;/.,;... ■' -. / Sir, Joseph (proceeding)', said that Mr.; Herdman, must knoiv' that in Wellington/ for./ instance, '' an enormous amount of retrenchment took place. ■Would lie not have . ordinary/-v magnanimity/and acknowledge the fact ? He had tried, to convey the; impression that no information|had been supplied at all. What Mr. Herdman/' wanted, in one respect, ho would not supply-rand that was that the names of.the 1041 men who •went' out under. retrenchment should be enshrined, so that anybody might point>in the future to the fact that they,/were . called upon' to 'resign, or :were! retired,- whilst their opponents might say- that they' were put out: '-' A-Voice: Don't do it. ,;Mr. Herdman: Tbey have not committed a criminal act. Continuing, Sir Joseph said that some ex-officials who went to Australia had written , to him to the , effect, that in consequence of, the fact that they had been retrenched from the public service of the Dominion they could not get .work to do there, although there was work. to do. Yet' Mr. Herdman .preferred that the whole, of the names

should be put on record: to be wagged about the country for all time. The fact was that Mr. Herdman wanted the names on record simply 011 account of his insatiable curiosity and his voracious demand for information of the kind. Considerable information had already been given, and lie was prepared to give requisite information as each ' class of the Estimates came up for consideration. . Scrvico Could Not Stand Still. It had to bo remembered that since the retrenchment-trado had expanded, requiring the services of additional men, Was • jtlie- public , service to stand still simply . because there had been a period of .retrenchment. He went on 'to say . that in July last a circular had been sont to the /heads ofD all ' Departments asking particulars as'to the number 'of the staff.that had been dispensed with; the totals saying per? annum that had been effected in their .'Department,; and any , other.' details w'hich .they .thought should be re-, ferred to. Sir Joseph that the permanent..savings effected in all Departments had totalled £258,712, and the temporary savings had aggregated £247,474. : '''v 1 Mr. MALCOLM (Clutha). declared that tho officials that had been retired would benefit ,if the information were published., That was evident from the statement made by . the, Premier that ex-officials: nowin had had difficulty in; getting , employment. Of course; the ,mep affected, could get: testimonials ; from .the head of the. Depart ment in which they had been .employed, but the -Premier knew/that , testimonials, were .not'of .great: use.; . - .If' the: men could produce the official list it would show, the true /position. As it was, they might be.,in the position.; of .labouring under, unworthy suspicion: r. .. TJpoh a .division' the, amendment ! was rejected by 28 votes t0,21. . //;;'//'/ ■ For Mr.;: Herdman'siamendment (21) : Anderson . '-.'/y/ Malcolm . . Buchanan ■ ...: Massey Dive.,- Newman Duncan, J. Okey Fisher . . // • . . : ; • ■■ Fraser . ~Phillipps h V; /" . Hardy Rhodes Herdman- Scott • . Hernes Taylor, T. E. Hine ; Wright. . . • Hogg .': Against the amendment (28) :;, ,v; : Brown . '■ ■Lawry-! .: . Buddo'.: | ' . Macdonald Buxton. / ". • • Ngata ' .•, ." Clark m ■'• , Poole ! ' Craigio Rangihiroa . . Dillon Ross Duncan, T.' Seddpri . ' /■ - iEll : /\//"''/ Sidey///•/■; Field . |. . StiillVorthy. . Foibes Taylor, E. H. Hall > • • . Thomson, J. C. Hanan _ Ward Hogan, Wilford •Laurerison ///-''.Witty,; ■

CIVIL SERVANTS' SALARIES. ,A* MINISTERIAL DEFEAT. Mr„ HOGAN (Wanganui) noxt moved that the! total voto for 'the Treasury Department bo. reduced by £1 as an indication;' thati definiteVsalaries should. ..beV allotted "to, definite" positions iri "the .public; service, :'and;> that/'air increments ofsalaries should; take place gradually. from ' the : lowest jto the highest "posi- ; iions in : any.'Department/ There .-.was' no' 1 discussion: : the • proposal, V. which was carried by 28: votes to 20. . y w For IJr. Hogan!s amendment- •, (28) i•' Anderson /Arnold • . * . Malcolm'.... . Buchanan , Clark , %■ •' ;• Duncan, 'J. Parata ' t. Fisher. ' ' Phillipps. . y . Frasor• . '' Poolo ". i". ■ Hanan : f. Rhode's;S. .5, \ Hardy Scott• ■ . Hcrdman • Taylor,'T. E. ; .Herries . Thomson,. J; C. - Hino Hogan . ' •' Wright ... . Against the amendment (2G). y. Brown . '. . • Lawry ' 15uddoMacdonald •. Buxton Mackenzie, T. Carroll: ~ ■ Miltar .'. ■ ■ Uraigie . ; Ngata. Dillon ■. Kangihiroa.. ; Duncan, T. • . Ross . , :' •. tEll. ••. Seddoij • ■ Field •' Sidey: ■■■ Forbes '-v./' ; V •; ■ Stalhvorthy .'. Greenslade • Taylor, E. H. Hall Ward . Laurpnson • Wilfo'rd FRIENDLY SOCIETIES' OFFICE. .'The vote ' for this 1 Department- , .was passed''after a; brief discussion. : ;V

RATES ON CROWN LANDS. THE PRIME MINISTER SAYS HE, WON'T BE "BOUNCED." Mr. OKEY (Taranaki)- asked whether it; was. proposed to allow local bodies to levy rates on; Crown.' laiids \7luoli continued to remain'unoccupied. ' ':. ' When the question 1 , was - about to - be put/-several members 1 of; the/ Opposition ; inquired whether the Prime Minister intended td 1 answer the question'. ■ "It is a-, very ~ pertinent, question,"; remarked Mr. Massoy. . Mr. HARDY suggested that it might •be necessary to block, business .until' a reply, was forthcoming. : Sir Joseph: You can'block • away; block as 'mucli as you like ; and . as soon as yo,u like. I am not going to bo bounced., (Laughter.) /' . ;/' Proceeding, ;■Sir';-' Joseph . "said-: that _it was not . intended'to allow -, local'bodies, to levy rates on any' Government lands. It- was : tantamount: to' asking ;!the peoplo to pay rates on their;owiv property. , Mr. : HINE' (Stratford) pointed out' ■ that £1000 was'voted'.in this/' regard last year, but only. £2SS was expended. ' : The vote was; then /agreed to.

■ RATES ON NATIVE LANDS. ' When the vote for this. purpose, wjis before the House Mr. Masses suggested that improvements made by ' local bodies near Native, lands should bo made a charge on the properties. He also expressed the ! opinion that the Native Lands Bating 'Bill would, be brought down, this session. . . .. THE TAXES DEPARTMENT. MORE LIGHT SOUGHT. . PRIME: MINISTER APPEALS TO • HIS iPARTY. Mr. MASSEY asked ; whether the Prime Minister had any > more information'to give Parliament: with reference to tho findings of the different compassions of inquiry in regard'to the trouble which' had taken place in the Department, and more especially with regard to the first commission which consisted of two judges. . • CXKGz FLKiQ liuPuU ,;WSK. )WP The Prime Minister replied that ho had nothing further to add on the subject.' Replying to another, question, tho, Prime Minister said that the new Commissioner of Taxes was receiving £800 per annum. : Mr. WRIGHT . (Wellington South) said he. noticed that three officers who I wore engaged ill renovating tho Department,, including one ;who ■ took his position in his hands, had got no increase this year. On the face , of it, it looked as if they had Keen punished for their activity in that regard. As there were no, increases in the case I of. clerks in that Department, it looked

like as if that was the reply to be given to any question of the kind that might be asked. The officials to whom no liad referred had been responsible for the bringing of £10,000 additional revenue to the Department. The PRIME MINISTER replied that twenty-nine officers in the Department had received increases. The position of the three officials in- question was under, consideration for increases on the Supplementary Estimates. It was only right that certain matters should be. settled before the Government saw what-it should do. , Mr. T. E. TAYLOR (Cliristcliurck North) argued that the officials to whom Mr. Wright had alluded should be rewarded for their efforts, which .hadi resulted in such large accretions to the Department. He would move as an amendment that the salary of the Com-, miss'ibner be reduced by £100, on the ground that there must be some principle in regard to increases of salaries. It would be no use the Prime Minister saying that no - trouble ensued where large salaries were paid. In view of, the fact that the number of employees in the Department had been reduced from 134 to 45 he did not see why the salary' attached : to- the office had been , increased.. . Question of Salaries. The-. PRIME MINISTER said .that the former ' Commissioner was paid £850.- /' " Mr. Taylor: He had been there many years. -. ■ Sir' Joseph: The present Commis: sioner has twice the length of service. j. Continuing, Sir Joseph 'said the Valuation Department was also, under, the : old Commissioner. Mr. Campbell, who had been- appointed Valuer-General, had received - an increase, of' £75. ' As to what recognition would, be made in the case-of the.officials,-to whom Mri Wrjght - had-' alluded, he mightsay i£';w.ould not, bo'brought on the floor of : tlio Houso, '' but the Government would submit its proposals on the Supplementary Estimates. '. : ': • Mr.' FISHER' (Wellington ' Central) oomplained of the delay that .had' , occurred in regard 'to - bringing. certain charges before the Court. ' V ' The' PRIME MINISTER said ' that this salary! for the ..position 'of Commissioner this, year was the same, .as for last year £800, but . the former Commissioner also got £50 additional 'salary .in connection, with the Advances Department. . ':-V/ '■ "..'The,', amendment / was. lost on tho' voices." • • ■ Mr." WRIGHT (Wellington.' South), asked whether 'any.' clerks receiving under £200 per ' annum ,in , the■ Taxes Department had rr«ciyed ,incrMses..; >. ' ; The Hon. J. A. MILLAR, in the temporAry labsenee■ of\ the .Prime Minister, said that 20 among . the lower-paid officials had; received increases. :

Mr.'Massey Not Satisfied. Mr.'. MASSISY moved' that tho Vote' for the Department 'be ledUced; by■ ;£5j t . as;; ari; : indication that ; tke-Hbuse was not. satisfied jrith-.the,: refusal-, of'-.the : .'Government (to. supply as much information.' as it .:t»uld .~: in - .regard : ;;_to .tho commission: of two . judge's which ; ill-! quired into, alleged' ' irregularities in the/Department. ;..It : .Wos'- his - view .that. Parliament: had plighted.';: No in-v formation •,was desired' in; regard to' the private '.affairs ' *.6fianybody, ulf ' the. Prima Minister mado a statement to tho Public . Accounts ! Committee, .and -;tho: Coinmitteo; decided ' that: the information i should. not be.divulged;' Parliament would bo perfectly.' satisfied. Ho remembered an .'. inquiry 'just.:before-, he' entered 'Parliament where a gentleman was requested to ' decide whetlipr. anything 1 further, should •be • divulged; r 1 but he deoided' iir the: negative| r .' arid;" ' that was tho end of. the matter.. . .. • . Sir Joseph: That was': in; connection, ■with- a loan. -■ '1' i: Continuing, Mr. Massey said, that he could ;als6vremomberHho' CaBO; of Jan .inquiry into tho. working of the .Public Trust Department, and :in. that no .information : .was 'that. Should ' not, have been disclosed;'.: There : Was' far 'toomuch., mystery,, .too 'much' of the Star Chamber business, 'about the inquiry held by the two' judges. The; only. way in which ho could' clear himself -of' responsibility:.'in'-' regard., to tho matter was .by asking that a vote should bo taken. •••••• v-

Was It a Threat? .i. The PRIME MINISTER, said that it would be ■ improper for 'him Ho' give the information . desired. . If . tho Houso carried , the resolution,- he would not lay\ the . papers on the, table, : s bUt;. .someone , else ; could. iHo'- saw --Mr." - Harries smiling ; he (Mr. Herries) did not.care for'anything ■ when : it; was;: a' I ,question of party. He .(Mr. Ilerries) ,ivould have' the private affairs booted;about. the Houso. If Mr. Herries had an opportunity ; he, presumed that ho Would, gov into: the; Taxing: \ Department!'' and investigate people's; affairs. If: the Plouse.oar'ried. .the; resolution ;the'House would get information'concerning everybody's affairs, and tho House, could take the responsibility. : There; was nothing' ithat 'he would be ;.afraid' to' see ;made public if possible. In tho case iof' a secrot Department tho affairs of! those; dealing with it should be , kept. Jecret; : If,he were asked to give ..publicity ;to .such matters he : would do nothing of the kind.;. .The instances., /quoted. .by: Mr. Massey were riot on all., fours:. : ; :. Mr.' Taylor •. ' Will you make tho. same: offer ,as was made in tho cases he

quoted? ' • , , . '.Sir Joseph :' No I won't do arytliing of tho.kind. X . ■ ■'■! ", - •'Mr.: Taylor: Oh, donji'get angry:; it' is • an 1 important matter. .: 1 | .' Proceeding,. Sir Joseph .said, that as' a. matter of fact the affairs of a number .of;,taxpayers were:quite- uiiknown to theni reviewed by ' the'' judges. There;, was. a suggestion that I; hej should take 'the report before the : Public: Accounts Committee.'^ 1: They- were all mixed up in that' report. •; ■ ,j ; .. •••• A Regrettable Proposal. j Members were free -to vote as , they ••liked. '• 'Let the House vote and: relieve him', of . all responsibility; : ';Hei': never knew of a more regrettable proposal. .As a matter 6f fact he had nominated tho two judges in regard to tho first inquiry. •, .'. ' Mr. T. E. TAYLOR (Chjistchuroh North) said that as far as' ho . knew, nobody suggested .that" any. Minister ,was concerned in tho matters. Ho held, however; that it . was not right ithat the. affairs of any Department should bo inquired' into by any tribunal;taiid'the; people's representatives'have' rio means; to get direct' access as to what had taken'place. A committee of . tke Houso should ;havo access to .- the evidence, and report so that Parliament might •satisfy itself in regard to . tho; matter. There wero . thirteen other j; matters which were inquired. but about :which nothing had been disclosed.'( The /Executive was exercising the "powers of 'a Star Chamber. .

"Enough to Make a Cat Laugh." . Mr. HERRIES (Tauranga) said 'he was surprised that the Premier, should have bccome annoyed because ho had had a laugh. , The-tactics of the Government were really enough to make a cat laugh. . The Premier: was annoyed because lie had suffered a.defeat, and now he did not want to be again defeated. Sir Josoph had therefore; indicated to , them that lie would make the motion one of wantof-confidence,' so far as they wero concerned. Sir Joseph: Oh, no. Mr. Herries: Well, I saw tho'Whips goinground. •; Mr. Ell: Can't I talk to my friends? Mr. Hemes: And I can put two and two together. Government members: And you got five. •_ ' . Mr. Herries: Yes; 'I am more progressive than you are.

Continuing, Mr. Herries said that there was- no need for the Premier to have got so warm over the matter. What ho had said to his party was in effect that if he were defeated on another motion he would resign. He might mention that negotiations in regard to Native .land purchases , w<4re recently disclosed. Apparently the policy of the Government was to protect the fat man who -made income, but always go against the landed proprietors. , , ,'. A Remarkable Assertion, The PREMIER complained that Mr. Herries always put party before everything, The Government'.- never . did such a thing. (Laughter.) He was not so stupid as to make the ■ question before the House one of want of confidence. The Civil Service Commission was not set up at the instance of the Government. If the : principle suggested were- adopted it would mean that private affairs. would be disclosed as a result of a dispute between officials who might call for a Civil Service .Commission. . , Mr. HERDMAN.. (Wellington North) argued that the charges could be disclosed without the private affairs of anybody being revealed. Supposing it was a case of an officer having failed to collect taxes? Or supposing it was an instance of an officer. wrongfully ; remitting taxation? There would be no need to . give further , information on such matters' . Necessary information could have..been given, he -held, without, involving .the exposure'of ■ the private af-fairs,of-anybody. • An Important Division, » Tho amendment : was rejected by ,35 votes to 24. ' ;- For Mr. Massey's Amendment (24); Anderson Luko ' ' '. . Buchanan- . Lang ' Dive - , Malcolm ■■ ■ • Duncan, J. - Massey Fisher ■ Newman - Fraser ■ ..; Okey ■ -■■■>! . Guthrio. Phillipps Hardy- Rhodes Herdman ..Scott Herries , Taylor, T. E. Hine : Thomson, G. M. Hogg Wright . Against Mr. Massey's Amendment (35). Arnold' .' -. .' ' Brown v ' • Myers ' V : Buddo . j •... - Ngata '. -. '■ Buxton Parata Carroll ; • - . Poole :-, -.-' '■ Clark , .... Raugihiroa- ' Craigie.- . Reed .. Davey - " -Ross-" ■ :. Dillon Seddon Duncan, T. '■ Sidey Kll: •' . . . • Smith '..'.; Field '': .-;'. Stallworthy • ■-- : • ; Greenslade . Steward ' Hogan ' Taylor, E. H. , • Laurenson - V Thomson, J. C. • ' Lawry . ...• ' ; : . Ward Macdonald' ' . AVitty. -:- -' './ 1 / .Mackenzie, T. . ... - .j; X;

' V In . reply to Mr. Wright, the Prime ;Miriister that \ there': was 1 :'johly; bhe':dfficer''rece,iyihg bvei- £200. who ba!d received an increase. - Mr. HERDMAN (Wellington North) asked,-the .Prime Minister if he could give', the' number of. officers', 'appointed to the- Department during tho list financial year.- ■ : Tho? Prime - Minister: ''The only officers we know of are: .two' cadets.'.'.': _ :Mr."; iIASSEY- 'said .'he would like -teimpress .upon :.the vPrime.i Minister :thV necessity for going. back'; to the nominal' rblli;:>vhich; gave the 'length: of- '• service and.: salary,'; of; each officer.This' was most, : valuable«information, •. arid : . if: ■ it, . was: supplied'would'shorten the • debates' on': tho (Estimates: considerably;: ' ."i ; Tho PRIME MINISTER said he would ibe glad' to do what was . asked, next session; ' The only reason itV had; .hot been:: done this '.session - was that, there: had been so many changes because. Of''retrenchment,; etc. Ho:hoped ■to': have. tho classification < ready.';next' if at-was; not. completed -lie would'be glad to havo;.the nominal roll.

i Should Report Go Before a Select 'Committee? , Mr, T. E. TAYLOR (Christchurch North) moved a reduction of £1 in. the vote ,as an indication that tho report of the inquiry . conducted ' by ' the /. .two' judges " should bo submitted to a of the. House., Delicate matters of the kind should, he thought, bo open to the perusal of a body more representative ,',of Parliament' than..-the Exccutivci '•' V.. The PRIME MINISTER remarked that at the Banking Committee the very; , thing : ,asked for by Mr.laylc.r was refused. It was quite impossible to.' keep ■ the, 1 names, out of' the' ' report,' nor,' could they igive letters to .indicate 'the parties.'; .If. .the', committee' wanted' to have this ho would not' do. it. > V : i;Mr; Fisher''Then: you/i. would' resign." (Laughter.) . . ■•' '"■ v .Sir Joseph: •"I would,.':not -'tell ,'v the 1 hori. gentleman what I' intended to do." Mr, BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) > said it'; was-idle .for the Prime Minister; to deny that the Government could 'not, out .of the report, of '.the . judges, presenit a / committee with, information .on '■ the; same : principle lis was supplied to the Bank of New.Zealand Committee. Information could be given which would not involvo names or disclose anything of a privatei nature whatever; : • •':, Mr. HERRIES (Tauranga) said it was a -simplo ; thing' to do without;'mentioning : tho name or tho; amount. Even if the : amount were . given no : ■ one. could get at the, taxpayer. • I

Views of tho Prime Minister. - Tho PRIME MINISTER .said ho was going to move that a clause; bo. , put into the taxing legislation ', to :'" ' allow any taxation papers of. ; the, kind: to |bQ submitted to a committee of the House, and let 'the House take. the ' responsibility. ■..:/.■:„ : ; ; Sir, Joseph,. (to Mr. .Herries),: ' /Why don't you. put .your .'.views ' in lution ? ' : l , '■ Mr. Herries: Give mo a chance. : Sir- Joseph: It would be a very poor thing.- . ,;VJ ; • Mr. Herries: Oh, no. . Mr, T. E.i TAYLOR (Christchurch North) said. that .if the Premier-carried out 'his suggestion! with reference. to a hew clause in the taxing legislation it would mean that only could •be dealt;with.. ' , / ■. • In reply to a question, the Premier said that he had . certain'; information bearing on the banking case some years ago. He had in his possession a list of all the. accounts that had been written off by the .Bank of : New .Zealand'at. that time.; This list, he added, had not come before the Select Committee which dealt with .the matter.. ; ■ ; '. . . .-. Mr. Taylor: How did you get it? j Sir Joseph: Officially. . Mr. Taylor: You had no.right.to get it. ■'' ... : ; Mr E. H. TAYLOR.(Thames) did not think that a committee of tho House would have a better method of keeping any matter secret than the. members of the Executive. ;' :\ ; . ■ Mr.' T. E. Taylor declared that it was'an absurd comparison. ;' J The amendment was "rejected; by .37 votes to 23. ; ' ; The remaining section in. tho class of the Department of Finance passed after brief discussion. POST AND TELEGRAPH DEPART-" ME NT, " TELEPHONE GUARANTEES. In the matter of the votes for Conveyance of Inland. Mails, Mi'.' HINE (Stratford), asked whether tho item "Wanganui £6260" included a payment'to the river service. Tho' PREMIER replied, that the amount was £1100. ..':■■■ When the section "Carriage of Mails by Railway";was reached, .. '. ■■ _•.

Mr. BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) complained that the. Postal Department were not aware' of the recent alterations in tho railway time-table for his district until they were, published. The Premier said .that .tho Postal and Railway Departments worked together. Mr. Buchanan said he hoped that the matter would bo further inquired into. With reference to' the class: Maintenanco of telegraph and telephone lines, Mr. WRIGHT (Wellington South) asked whether the. period (three. years) for which . private subscribers had .to contract might be reduced. ' The Premier: That only applies in the case of a line three miles long. : Mr. t ' Wright: The case to which I refer is only one and a half miles from t tho General Post Office. The: Premier: I find, that'the rule is that if the distance- is under one mile one year's subscription; must'.be paid, and if. over that distance; the. period, must be threfi years. . , Mr.,. Wright._ asked that the matter should be inquired into. The Premier , said'he was afraid that nothing could be done in the matter, as the Department must avoid laving "dead" dines on its hands. ' - Replying to. various / members,.; the Prime Minister said that consideration would be given to . the point as to whether the'.guarantees dn the case of-pri-vate bureaus might be made easier. - ... Over-water Telephones. > Mr. PHILLIPPS (Waitemaia) moved a reduction, of this vote by £1 by way of a protest against the-impost of 3d. in the ca.se' of calls. from certain. - boroughs adjacent to the cities. . Mr. LANG (Manukau) .'endorsed this protest, although-he had no doubt the Prime Minister would-'declare our ' telephone. system was the best in the world., At Otahuhu, once lie had .made a, sporting bet of £10,000 to a gooseberry, that' our system: was.fifty; per cent .cheaper: than any other. In, the United! States; Mr.' Lang pointed 'out, tho subscription for. private , telephones was £2 8s:, and business telephones'/ £3 12s. In New the. charge for a business telephone': was £7. The charge for telephones in the city_ was reasonable enough,' but -;it was ridiculously high -in the. suburbs. ; ■ Mr. 'Lang '..quoted '. a case in. which a charge of £35 was' asked for installing, the telephone, and a contn- . bution; of, £21; a ; year, afterwards.. ■ The impost charged to suburban residents when- ringing -up'' the city should be removed; Mr. POOLE (Auckland West) supported the abolition-' of/the:- impost on ' North Shore; - residents. .:. Mr. PHILLIPPS further pointed out thdt: though was.within three milps ;of -Auckland' the ■: telephone lino was thirteen: miles long for some . reason or other. • V. v -' ! 'I;-. ' Sir JOSEPH WARD, in reply, stated that it. oost": more;; to l lay under a harbour; than' to-erect overhead -.wires; ;■ The amendment was lost by 30 to 27.

WORKING RAILWAYS. MINISTER REPLIES TO AN ALLEGATION. \ .Referring ; to: tho votes lor working railwayßi^';-;^'.fv?. , . v ''::i : ::Vj^''; y. ' Mr; .SIDEY. (Dunedin North). drew attention.;to the. of ;.wor ri kors at tho Hillside workshops... , ,-He urged-, that- when "a holiday occurred in any week .the 'mien, sho^d,not',;have: tb ; work overtime'.to.'make .up the.-holiday, and bring up their hours to 48 per. week. He! also,:.thought ' something -,should ibe done, for casuals, who .had been - m-fclie. service for a number of years. Could the Unr' not - be : amended' to allow ; them; to', coine sunder;.the i after a. certain time?y .-. y . - V'y:

Mr., T. E TAYLOR (Christchurch North) ; asked ;,the' f.Se:=,would not 1 carry out-the -■ pledge, given: by his 'predecessor .that: if. casuals- -could .pass•; acertain- : medical; test they should bo .appointed- permanent ! i hands.;,y:He:;,(Mr. Taylor) suggested that all men who 'were . casuals .at the - time '-the .-promise was made, and who were still casuals, ; should havo : the promise fulfilled. \ :v : U ' Tho MINISTER said no' instructions, had been given to' overwork or drive the men; ;but 'if; a' man' ;was;'in the\railw'ay. 'employ hekad'. to give':'as, good a day's work .as be. would have ~to; give' to a private employer. A Complete Denial. -He'.lcould give -the "allegation /that ' there : was an attempt to : sweat tho men at .'Hillside '■ a complete denial.. He had been' in .' touch;; 1 with .-; the :; Amalgamated Society, of' Railwayi Servants of late -on other . matters, and ' they. • had not made'. :' any representations to him. Surely -'. ;if _ anything ' of. tho . kind 'was going- on. i lie . / would:' - ;havoheard .'of'it. He did not; want- - any' : driving;'. but : he "expected: his' officers-:to i give' a. fair day!s work' and. he. .thought they 'should-' give-it.'/He w.as_not; aware that where a .holiday ...came; in'.'a week men had to -work up tho timo; during, that week.He would: inquire into; the matter.V The casual question-was-a v difficult one .and,.he; had been trying to deal - with it and; carry . out tho' pledges •made.- ..Casuals with /greatest '.length .of; •service' would be absorbed into the permanent, staff first. " :

/. Mr. DIVE ■. (Egmon't) declared that •the rolling stock had: not been kept up. to the required state', of efficiency. :■ (~; .;.Mr. : LUKE (Wellington Suburbs) expressed tho hope that orders for ffie, construction of: a certain number of trucks, would be placed privately. He also desired:,to know whether the Minister would state what .lenders,: if' any; had been received; for tho construction of the new steamer'.for Lake Wakatipu. '■ '/•' -v';■'i Wairarapa Time-table. - Mr. BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) spoko 'strongly .in.' favour of a better time-' table for -the- Wairarapa' district'.;He. declared that 'tne. Minister could . not : say that the lines", in."the. district ] did; -not' pay.' -, From.three;'..stations 'in- ihis' district • .more, stock was , railed than from any , other eight . stations .together' in tlio Dominion. • .'• .." Mr.' LAURENSON (Lyttolton) urged the.'Minister to allow wives or working men, to travel at half-rates, and that children 'should.. ~be . allowed to, travel at half-rates up to 14. . ;. : : : A member: What about bachelors P ■; llr. Laurensori:' I would '. support charging' them double. (Laughter;)' . Mr. FIELD /(OtakiJ 'jvas of' opinion that .a day should, be'.set .'apart for dik-r cussing: matters affecting' the -railways Tho Railway Estimates wero finished at ,2.40 o'clock . 'this, morning, and the House then adjourned. X■ j;. .- THE FfHTORT COURTEOUS. Mr. EU, at 2.30 a.in. on Friday: "Sir, I' think Mr. .Fisher has : been flogging; a dead dog." ■ Mr., Fisher, - interjecting: "Why,; I never touched you." . ;, - . RURAL SCHOOLS. With a. view, to improving the.-'rural schools; of the-Dominion a number , of. school; committees -in the VOtago Education District have petitioned the. House of Representatives asking that'provision bo made for an amendment of the Education Act and regulations, in the direction of providing that the: responsibility' for the examination and promotion '.of pupils, and for the.courses; of work in the schools shall not be imposed on the teachers. of the smaller schools; or only such as, in the opinion of the boards, 'have capacity. and experience to exercise such responsi-' bility. Petitioners also suggest an amendment to ennblo boards to appoint a number of organising and teaching inspectors, resident in the country, to orgaiiiso the smaller schools, visit them frequently and be responsible for the examination and promotion of the pupils, for the.course of study, and to generally exercise a more immediate supervision over them than is at present the case.