CONTROL OF WATER POWERS.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 927, 21 September 1910, Page 4

CONTROL OF WATER POWERS.

,-. ... T-7-; , '.. 1 LOAN OF £500,003 PROPOSED. j 'AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION. ;A: proposal by the Government to in- ' elude £500,000 for, developing the water L powers of the Dominion 111 this year's [,; ■ Public Works. Loan Bill-for £1,750,000 pA - led' -to"an: important -discussion. :■•, - : | . 'Tho PRIME MINISTER, m oxplainI , ing what was proposed. to be done,! said ;' there could bo "no doubt but; th«;t tho' i Government's scheme' was meeting i with the approval of the country." . j Mr. Massey: Well, I hold that ' " the.., amount., in; respect of. the , waterj . power scheme .should be provided.in a I- separate Bill. L:..."-_'.;V 'fhe Prime ;Minister: If the-amount f-"is . not provided iri ; the. present Bill, j " -, mother Bill . will have to bo brought t" > down.- ; Mr. JVIASSEY "contended that the ; co«Jitr,v was not unanimous, about the i;..:-. expenditure of such a large sum on . water-power : development- per annum. : As regards the utilisation' of the water powers, he; might remind the Premier that not-long ago the Govern- | " n>»nt ontered into an arrangement with s . tlio Waihi Gold Mining Company for •;;" the use" by it of .-'water power. -;. -While ; lio was - prepared to vote- money for j" - "roads and bridges,' ho was not prepared to vote £500,000 per annum for water V 'power development until the country' , Knew more about the" scheme. . . The Goverriment was ' really; .: asking the !■•• Houso to vote blindfolded in the: mat- '■ - • ter. -

ill'. J. ALLEN (Bruce) said that he had noticed that the full amount put iii the scheclule of some Public Works Bills was never spoilt. He was afraid ;that. much: of this, nioney 'might ultimately bo used'for. other public works. Tho PRIME MINISTER said that tlio .water-power scheme was - part of the Government's policy. Without delay lie would introduce a Bill on the subject. Ho would; however, have this loan provided iii. a ,separate Bill. ■ Mr. Massey i''.How ~many companies have got rights . now?' ;' Is the Amount too Largo? Sir;;! : : r>,■'.'Oiily',f '"tho ~ Wailii 'Gold Minhig .'Ctonipanyiy.-Biere. were (he continued) :two ' other;.: companies which had Government however, that' tho sooner it, stopped .the? sale .of rights to private .'individuals';thebet'ter. ' It'was not right .that conipanies'shoiild be':.given options over such-a valuable; asset for it would ln'ean that the ■ public -would, ultimately have to . pay more in the . way of rates. The arrangement with the Waihi Gold ' Mining . Company:, was satisfactory as . far "as. the country was 1 , concerned. . ;:,Mr.\.MasseyV,Then:,why. : . ; sot , make other, similar,'arrangements. '. Sir,; ,; Joseph:: We S'cbuld • take - the rights .back , at any time. ... There, is . a domaniTfrom end to end of the coun- , try - for v the development or the water powers. The, 'amount .proposed, £500,000 a year, was not too largo a sum'to enable it to_ bo.done. / Mr. Massey:..lt times . too much - to, compience.'with'.- t Continuing his remarks ■ Sir. Joseph ' stated that lie could not tell, where the .Government intended' 'to; commence with its,;scheme::.;"!He , thought;-thjit/ a start would,have, to■;be..'.made.-in; twoior three places'- simultaneously!' ■ :Jhstead - of lot-. •ting:.theso;, finance,' Bills drift over, the " session he: proposed that, they should, bei put through without, delay. He did. : not wish, to - see '• a --series; of - debates on i.the - ppint. ,- . : ;Perhaps, he. ought to .take, the feeling'of . the' House on tho subject-. : ' - . ,- - ' :.; ',;'-;>Mr. : ..Mass9y;,(wafmly):. :^.Ohj ;stick to •what you havo said. '. - "Country would have to'ba Careful." Mr. FRASEIi' (Wakatipu) ' thought ; the' method "adopted. ;by. the Prime -Min•ister' was a very 'curious one.; i: The House was in favour of ■ spending money foriroads 'andabridges,;blit,had;'give.n no indication that it was • • in favour , of. : spending £500,000 on-'tho. development of water-power. • • , - • •' / 'Mr. ANDERSON- (Mataura) said the country" ;would : -have-to be very careful "Ss v to'-the.; manner .. in-' which' -- it «went about spending- ! ,;mo'neyi in the'. development of water-power. He 'wanted to 'know-; whether,,the Prime". Minister : was -going.vtb : get; the best,-'expert v electrical ■ engineering advice from - abroad before a penny 'was. spent.- ■'. : ..' Mr. LUEE (Wellington. Suburbs) said .that 'the industries; ofi-'the; Dominion had been Stifled " rand riot given the. scopo '.thcy should .- have.' ; He> thought the: industries (should' ;b3 encouraged.' ,Th'o*.setting' apart"'of,' for. the .deyelopmont of waterrpower in the; first year, should be supported if it was go!.in'gf.' to;-improye the .position, of. the inrdustrie'B.'i .was a; national . asset, :and/ f it'^as.>the:!duty:ofrthe'Gov-. ernment ; t'o' , c;oritrol:it,VrhO;:qu'estion.,had to bo dealt ,'with 'on .broad- lines. 1 ; If only-.'£100,000 : was . voted $6r :Jthe -Ifirst. year it, would only.-., be'. frittering 'intli the' question. ■: ; ' : Mr. ~T.. E. ..TAYLOR:;....(Christciiiirch; ;Noi;th) ; declared'.that ,the' House should •be,'given,' .before; the end" of the session,. "details\as ,';tb:;how'.^■ .tlieV £5.0^0.0,^3'-to' be expended. .■' ■ ■; ■ .- A West Coast Proposal. The Hon. R. M'KENZIE (Minister for Public;W6'Ms)' ;i saiS v |liat'rit , 'w , as, pos-, ;sible .to 'goiVtobs Sloivly.: ,It .was-.time that the. money- for the .scheraei'was, 1 . appropriated. He denied that .'moneys voted under the'heading "Mining"'had' not been so spent.'' There ; was : 'no;doubt but that'all; riioneys for''public ' works .shquld"'.be. "included in' tho -orio ; measure. ;:;i M-I1;: .f.'';; :.Mr; Massey: What about the Hutt railway works? ■ • - - . , Mr.-M'Kenzie:-But.that : work is being' undertaken by the Railway Department.' - ■' - • -:; -The ; -Minister((resumnig) "said that; it might be the caso .that-.the country, was not unanimous about the scheme.-" But was the country; unanimous on; ahy] subject ? , ; Numeroiis- requests; had been : made; .to : , him ; under the - scheme; : . He agreed; ;vidth Mr. .'-Taylor- that the.- House should, have an opportunity, of discussing the-.'details of tho scheme. (Hear, ,he;ars;).>- He, might.,vmentiqni .that.vonly-. "recently,- an - application .had been !'iha,de .for!, xiglits, V for iri-j-- a" ! West''Coast: : Sound" for of nitrates.. The request was mado by a member of the Houso on behalf of a company-;at Ilomo": . Mr. Massey I Well, they are prepared to generate their own electricity.' ■ Mr. M'Kenzie., went on to say'-'that ,'.the;company.mtist knowrthat what: they .'.proposed .was" a; ~ibo3;'investment;] Goverriment had only, given: -'away; one Ibt'iof , rights, and he, hoped. that? ihey would riot; give, away . any;, more rights. No one,?ould have any doubt as to tho financial aspect of. the .matter..-j"The Council had found that from ; electrical: .;!^>in^a§^n'i > fact',-, it was one .of it's best ;XV\' Make .Haste Slowly.'. ■ ■ Mr.- .BUCHANAN (Wairarapa)' remarked ;that what had been said;: was begging the question. The question of whether the: water power; was to bo harnessed by, the'; Government:';oh ; the one -hand, or;; byf"private-erifeprise 011 tho other had. not b§en ''raised;; : CAs .usual on this question the Government had Jpeeii.'of two or three different niinds as time - went 011. 'First, of: /ally,the water; power was to be.- carried. out by tlio: Government,' then.'it was . to be :handed ;over;te,.private';., and now there was another change of mind. He was not "going to'say wliether. this was right or . not, but lie would venture to say. that .the Government -was;/ not yet prepared to go into, tho praotical ■ work in. regard to water power;,"-as' they had. .on the; matter' abroad.: ':In' '"Tailivayi, construction there had been mistake-rafter mistake,'through want of'-, knowledge and want- of judgment, and if. tno Government undertook {the development of . water., power be squandered because of; the want; of 'the 'iiecessary information\as to. what had been do.no of late in other countries. Ho hoped the Government would not push this matter until they received tho, fullest information; from other mparts of 'the world. ' ;Mr. MASSEY expressed' pleksliro at the statement of the Primo Minister to''the;effect that ho proposed to- take the Bills separately. Not 0110,, in a thousand understood the water-power proposals of the Government, and, lie would say, not ten per cent. ; of tho members of the; House'..knew, the mind of tho Government in connection with tho development of the electrical energy.: He; thought, the. Government should submit their proposals and go into details.; as far as\ possible. Tho proper thing to do wis to take the Estimates first, and, if they were approved, then'authority should be given to raise the money required. It had been suggested that ho wanted to throttlo industry, but this, was not so. Question of Private Enterprise. There was plenty of private money availablo for -tho development of electrical energy, and when ' private' individuals were prepared to use thai*

capital to develop the resources of the country they should ho allowed to do so, so long as there was 110 monopoly allowed. He agreed with Mr. Buchanan that in all .probability we were going to waste a lot of money in this , connection,, and he was not tho only man in this country who was beginning to get alarmed at the way our debt was increasing. The PREMIER said ho would ask tho House to first authorise the raising of tho money'. Mr. Massey: Will you give the Houso the details of the scheme at the samo time? ■ Sir Joseph: ,0h,.n0; not, at that stage. '■ Mr. Massey: Well, I hope tho House will refuse to pass the, Bill..authorising tho loan. Continuing his remarks, Sir Joseph stated that lio. believed that tho country could make a good deal of money out of tho scheme. . . v Mr. Massey.:-.'You>may,lose, some millions.. . . . • Sir . Joseph continued that the services; of an expert would have to bo. engaged. It would be a suicidal course to allow the water, power rights to fall into the hands of companies..- • Mr. Massoy: What about tho local bodies? ' . ; • Sir Joseph: It will be immeasurably better for tho Government to luavo control of tho. water rights. Scheme Should First Be: Approved. Mr. JAMES ALLEN (Bruce) said that he Would remind Mr. M'Kenzie of two instances where moneys authorised for mining had not, been so spent.; In 1906 £25,000 was set apart for mining, but only £11,000: was so spent ; in 1907 £25",000 was voted, and only £8000 exgmded. It would' be. only right for the ouse to approve' the' scheme before moneys were, raised. ' That was the course, adopted in connection- with, tho providing of new railways. - • . It . was ; then - agreed that progress should .be reported with a viow to tho inclusion of..tho £500,000: for " water power; development in' : a separate . Bill. THE LOAN BILL, . STATEMENT BY THE PREMIER. MONEYS AVAILABLE FOR PUBLIC V WORKS. ='. In moving-the second reading of. the Aid to Public Works and-Land .Sottlement Bill, ..which :• provides .for the raising of a loan of £1,17u,0C0, ;. I The -PRIME MINISTER - said that the position, in regard to public, wo-rkß was about ;the 6ame ;as" at this period last year, except, that, there was a .stronger demand , for railways. Last . year: the ways and: means provided, .for: public ' works'; totalled £2,558,267, and the 1 ordinary, expenditure for 'the Jyear amounted to : £2,1(19,278, together : with ';• finance charges £5280,' or a total disbursement of, £2,174,'558/, This I .year -the " amount that was' proposed;to;bo raised-'for public works wa-s £1,750,000. , They . had in addition, ' on-.'-. March t-, 31 last, £312,366, also ' ,£350,000' of • moneys received from ''loans '■ since. last year; >,-.; also£loo,oo0 1 : transferred from the Consolidated Fund, besides £797; under tho heading .."miscellaneous" which gave a total of £763,163. Of the £763,163,. £580,257 - had been expended " and the balance,- £182,906, .was available in the . Public AVorks Fund. He .calculat-ed the, requirements for public : works up" to September 30 next at ;'£2,200,000". . It, would thus be' seen that .if the ivholo of the amount were to be expended there would.'bo required a -transfer from ' revenue of £400,000/ He felt; confident; that they would bo able io make a greater - trahsfer. : L Mr. ■■Massey":.".,'You 'said £500,000 in. tho Budget. ■ ■ Sir "Joseph:. I hope it will exceed cVen, that amount;"""'" ~t" , Gould Borrowing be Curtailed? .Continuing,, Sir Joseph : said that they-. ought to 'be able, to "make greater ■ provision this yoar in respect' of roads and bridges. In .view of the development', that was ' .going on , throughout ■ New Zealand, Especially in the;. North it was futile to declare that borrowing should be ;di'scontinupd! ' Deolamatbry remarks against the .Government' about; what was-.: called ' the borrowing proclivities of tho Government therefore bordered on the.'ludicrous'. : > Every yoar the . Government 'ha'd; to resist.; a • greatmany demands ' for ejq»nditure. ; Continuing, Sir -Josegh asked if it would bo wise to"'..' curtail borrowing, and so delay the.completion of our;railway system'.- He was aware there was a section of tho community that opposed borrowing; altogether.' .- .'. . . : Mr.. Massey:. Nobody says that. ~ Sir Ward: People -pass resolutions to that effect and send them to.the- Government. '' Continuing, Sir . Joseph:., Ward said that , in addition to making provision for lie'prosecution of lines it was necessary 'to make provision for increase: in the rolling stock.;"Of-the 1 borrowing countries New Zealand stood' very high in the 'estimation >f London financiers.: Not oris of the countries . which , .were on the market' at the time , we raised our last loan did nearly as well as- we did.- - He had letters from gentlemen in the Old Country expressing pleasure , at our ' financial position. .These letters . were addressed to \ him privately, but; ho would be pleased. to show-, them. to any member, though, lie could not use' them in'public. VIEWS OF MR. MASSEY. EXCESSIVE BORROWING DEPRE-. GATED. " . Mr. ■MASSEY said that although, thePrime- Minister ..had ...occupied a. good deal of time he had not discussed the Bill as exhaustively as was usual in regard to a Loan Bill. ; Ho could not forget that, this was not the .first Loan Bill introduced this session. In fact, it was . the third. ' First they had £35,000 'for the Hutt" railway works, then £225,000. was asked for what-'was known' as the Dunedin-Mosgiel ..duplication, ;and now £1,750,000 .was • asked in this Bill;, and the Primo Minister had promised another one immediately. All these .came, under the head of prib-' 'lic works loans'. It was no wonder that peoplewlio had made their-homes here were getting alarmed at .'the .extent" of-the borrowing that was going on. ;■ The money, was '.needed ■ for the purposes of New State Guaranteed Fund. .There was no wonder that a section of,-the. community was getting . alarmed. ."He approved of the money expended "in giving telephone, facilities .to the; settlers. If we were going, to encourage, people to go to the oiit-districts-.'jwe* must give them more of the comforts of civilisation than- we had up" to tho present. It was a good policy; to give telephonic communication, and .if the Government "spoilt" a few thousand more in this way there could bo no objection to it. The Prime Minister had given; the people the idea that there was money to .be scrambled for in Wellington, and every district sent its representatives (he was not referring to of Parliament), in the hope that it might share in the plunder. There "was the difficulty, but.it was of the Minister's own creation. Wo could not do without borrowing, but a strong and wise Government would estimate what it would be proper to borrow.in any year, and froiild stop at that, and see that every district got its share ill proportion ito its requirements. The Government anil Financial Matters. Continuing, Mr. Massey complained that it was more difficult to obtain information in reference to the financial position of tho Dominion than eighteen or twenty years ago. • As an instance of this Mr. JUassey mentioned that ho had asked for information in reference to the loan raised in Ajjril of tho pre-

sent financial year. Ho had not the slightest doubt that. the information was in the hands of the Government, but it had not been given to tlio House. Why was this so r 1 The Government _said the loan was . floated on favourable terms, and even if it had not been, the Houso was entitled to the information. The lack of information made it very arduous for members to keep in touch with financial matters. Then again in the Loan Bills during tho time of previous Governments there was a schedule showing fuller details of tho proposed expenditure. It was often stated that the House was the trustees of tho people, and as trustees they should not authorise , expenditure about which they did not know the details. The Opposition was frequently accused of asking for details about a loan .to be raised. He rocognised that the Government could not givo" all details, but it could state whether the money was to bo raised in Now Zoaland, also how tho money was to be raised. Ho hoped that there was not going to be the loss that accrued, on the loan raised last April. He could see little difference in placing a; loan on tlio market at 96} per cent, and tho method under which that loan was raised. The Prime Minister had stated that at' that time New.' Zealand did better in the way of raising money than other countries.' He would like to However,. what was netted in connection with that loan? Then again, ... he,;,would ■ like to refer to tho reserve fund securities. There was nothing Ini the official; records' to show whether they had ever been interfered with. Every year'some information on this point should be given Parliament. It had to be remembered; in connection with'the raising' of a loan that the amount to be raised, was the amount mentioned in the Bill, plus the costs and _ charges. If; tho proposed-loan was raised'at .96, it meant that the; difference" would be £70,000, .which 'would also have to be raised.' - <' Increased Cost of Public Works. The feeling .was growing that the State-did not get value for its expenditure. In connection with railway-dupli-cation works,' it had been 'shown thatin most cases'the actual cost of works had been more than double' the original estimate. That fact showed that something was. wrong: with the public'works expenditure.. It. was well "known. that" the -construction, of railways, cost* several .thousands per mile 'more than the cost* some . fifteen years ago. ■ This explained the difficulty in inaking the, railways pay; -In regard -to railway-con-struction works, there were leakages in many directions. 1 There wero the same old-fashioned appliances—-the; pick and the ' shovel, - and the clumsy, old wheelbarrow., In, conclusion, Mr. Massey referred to the present system of. Parlia-mentary-grants, which was a curse to the Parliamentary life of this country. It had - really been evolved and - b\iilt up for the purpose of assisting the-Gov-ernment in power for the time being. Many members were in favour, of reform in" this regard. On the Government side tliero were members who had told him that they .would support . any amendment of . the :preserit system which would be an improvement.; There never would be proper Preform until the public took the matter in hand and returned a, majority of members pledged. to do something in; the way . of cleansing. the Augean stable of tho political adminis-tration-which-.had been built up during tho past, twenty years. - Speech by Hon. R, iVl'Kenzie. Tho' Hon; R. M'KENZIE, replying tothe criticism as to the cost of railway construction to-day as compared with 20 years. ago, . quoted , a number .of the causes. ' He. said it had; to be remembered that, thore was a great difference in the-construction work.as.it was carried; out 'now, as, against 20 years ago. For instance, .the standards grade had been iricreased from 1 in <10; to 1 in SO, which''added to the cost of coustruc-, tiOn, although- it -'resiilted -in - a saving; after tlio' railway had. commenced frorkiri'g. "Again, rails 'which" were 40 to 55 lbs., and ,some-even 281b. 20 years ago, were now replaced by 651b.' rails,, as an ayorage, but lninnirig up ,to .751b. .V;Tho numbor of , sleepers in the construction of to-day was about .500 per mile nioro than it, was '20 years ago, and■ where 'ballast used to .-be 6 .inches l deep,' it was now 9 inches.' : . Tho railways iii Canterbury, Southland, Ilawke's -Bay, and Tiirdnaki had to'construct as compared with the. lines of to-day:, The Stratford-Origariio line cost £20,000-per mile, and Gisborne-Motu cost £30,000, a mile. It was'impossible to avoid , this because of the, country in which the work was going , on. The Tauranga-Te Puke line would only cost £4000 a mile. This was tlio only , easy piece of.'work to be done. .The. difficult lines were left..to;'the presb.it Administration. . ... '~ , Road, and Railway Works. Ho agreed that;tho distribution- of, many grants should be made by public bodies. . VVhat was wanted was- local government reform. • ; In his. •; district liir.'Massey had a loi of twopenny halfpelnny .local"bodies. (Laughter.) The time. had arrived when the Government should stop borrowing to maintain roads in Settled ' districts. Ho hoped-that the Local: Government Bill would bo passed, next session, if not .this session, and'they "would look, to-Mr." Massey for assistance. . --v Mr. Massey; You can depend on me. Continuing,. Mr." M'Kenzie said : it was only a question of a . few- years wliori not . so much roa'ding would require to be done. He anticipated that in f.o.ur .or-five years the North. Island would, be fairly well roadedj tho South Island was pretty well roaded now. - As regards railways, they wero getting finished at a- fairly rapid rate. > The Napier-Gisborne line ought to bo taken in ;,hand- 'as" soou . as some of the•-.incompleted lines..'were, .finished. The Government'was riot being kept in power, as : a result ,of Parliamentary grajitSj .but by its admiilistration and legislation. It- was not necessary to givo;fuller- details as to 'proposed expenditure On a Loan Bill because all the items appeared on-the Estimates. Ho denied that fewer, details; as to expenditure, were now given to. the -House as compared' with twenty years ago.' As regards the railway construction .works, he would like Mr. Massey- to mention an up-to-date ; appliance which was not used by his Department. Soine of the railways. were being inaae at a cheaper rate than would bo the case under 'the.'contract system. . Mr. Massey : That is by squeezing the co-operative .workers. Mr. M'Kenzie, continuing, said that he would admit; that in. .-winter ' time the work was disagreeable. As soon as the,worke;rs got into the way. of-the ■work';'they made just as good wages as they would in 1 private employ. The Department had estimates of every singie penny/that was ,to be . spent on cooperative works. ; Of course, it could not foresee slips." The. men knew .from the/start how much stuff they had to shift. On the whole,'he was satisfied that except, in exceptional cases where tho men did not understand the work the co-operativo workers had no cause for complaint. . MR. HERRIES ON LOAN MATTERS. Mr. HERRIES (Tauranga) referred also to the scanty information which was supplied to the House with rogard to loans. The history of" last year's loans was rather interesting. Altogethertho Government had authority to raj-se £2,250,000. The Premier had not yet explained why the raising of. the money was so long delayed. In tho meantime 110 had to raise £1,500,000 by way of, temporary debenture. Tho House had 110 information as to how much interest had to be paid. None of this million and a half was shown to havo been converted. As regards past loans, the matter of sccrecy was not involved. Tho Opflositioju. did not want tho information,

with a view of "back-biting" the Government. Ho did not uudorstand why when it was raising the last loan the Government did not go boldly on the market and ask for oilers for inscribed or consolidated stock. Iri. regard to the last loan.it had .gone through'three.pro-cesses-rfirst, it issued temporary debentures ; then it paid them, off with. 0 year debentures under tho loan;..landafterwards, would convert into 3J. per cent, insoribed stock. He thought that the matter . was one which required some explanation; It was difficult to see why the old "sj'stom"of flotation had been departed from during the past two years. " There must be' H' per' cent,' iii the way .of. discount, then. 2' per cent, on the conversion and .'brokerage, and underwriting which would ' probably amount., to 1} per cent. more. He hoped that the Premier'would givo the •House some indication as to the railways the .Government intended to. go on with. He strongly uijjed that the Gisborne to Auckland lino should • bo gone on with. There was an uneasy feeling that • that line would* riot go farther than the Motu. He also wanted to see the railway'from the' Waihi end gone on with.. As. the. North Island 'rail-, waj-s were paying a greater rate on the cost of construction, and also per train aiile_, so northern lines should, he urged, receive every consideration. ■. From, a business -point of view, this.-factor should'not be- lost sight of. - MR. MALCOLM ON CO-OPERATIVE .labour. ' 'Mr. MALCOLM (Clutha) read a letter from Mr."J! E. M'Manus.'(secretary'of the Labourers' Union, Duriedin) to: the Minister, for.Public WorEs showing that the wages of co-operative labourers had recently beon reduced. ,- Tho Hon.-R. 'M'Kenzie objected to tho reading of the letter, which ho said' was from a newspaper. ■ ' ; : . \, The Speaker ruled that 'the letter could be read if it did not reflect on the' proceeding's in. tho lioiiso. ' . Mr. Malcolin said it was evident' that an equitable system for assessing, the value of .the work of the men was sary. Mr. M'Kenzie said recwirecl a report of the cases referred' to in« Mr. M'Alanus's .letter, and. every .case had beeri satisfactorily ,' . Mr. Malcolm said tho prices for.elay and 'for rock' had, -not' been fairly'.'assessed.': ; -- v: . ...'' ~..*/ Mr. ,-R!, M'.Kerizie,- said..rib, erigineer would ; be .so.- unjust .'as to -act in that way. The engineers' Would- not;, take advantage of ;the'men;., ■ i j . . , Mr.,.W.!vM4SBR'' '-(Wakatipu) -• .:said that' tho -raising-'' rf- -the' " last 'loan at ' les's' than ' 4 per ' cent-.; .'riiusi; lie regarded' as a, successful' operation. . "He, .'however,': sounded; , a' note of warning , as to allowirig". temporary loans to.-remairi - outstanding for."any longth of time.There 'wa? I ,.certainly, danger"in that. He- hoped'.the; Prime Minister would ; be able to, .go; : on" .-the market; with - the -present :.loari'.''a.t;..ari early date. ' If, however, ;the loan;-was securod, as a teriiporary-advarice,''there ; might- ;cbme .a/bolt the form of:a financial "crisis, "and' then wore .we .suddanly called upon to repay -iKo.money, it- would "cpaft'-.'ttßi'.d^arly.y:-. MR. BUCHANAN ON CONSTRUCTION. „■ Mr. BUCHAA T AN (Wairarapaj said the Minister for Public Works had admitted that the railway he (Mr. Buchanan) had asked for in'-his' district' would-pay from the start. . On:,the, other." hand," the Minister for Railways; had ' stated that the North of 'Auckland Railway,. now.being constructed would not.pay..a half per cont. on.- tho cost of . consbruction.H6 asked; the' Minister,'for, Financer.how, ho could • reconciled such;' a policy—tho coristructiott ;of • the 'Auckland, line ' that would riot pay a half per'cent.: and-the refusal to, authorise -the - Peatherstori-' Martinb'brough line, which'lyould pay from'"the start.;. ; Mr.; ;Buohanan proceeded to condemn the waste- of public money- that had, gone on under the cooperativo j system. ; The .waste. of money , on the Hutt line, for instance, was enormous.-' , It was the. ,sa!me-in regard .'to. roads, .-.arid tho consequence .was - that sottlers had their lands unduly, loaded to x pay for this waste. "Mr;-Buchanau quoted from .a speech of tlio Minister for Railways, iii" which he stated'that he; (the Minister). had, no 1 inpre; "right. to use .the. money„of, t-he.-.publicj'fbr. running trains that.;do ribt'p'ay."than. herliW\to put it in.his'iown pocket--' If. .the* Minister , was,, right in,; the dictum" "h?- had laid down, the samo should surely be applied to the construction of. railways. The Grovernmerit should be satisfied, before inaugurating a new line of. railway, that the lirie.';Would ;pay . for the. cost of its construction. .M l '; Buchanan proceeded to remark on 'the'time which had been permitted to elapse without providing the railway trucks with double floors. He hoped the Minister for; Finance would see that a reasonable sum seas allocated for these trucks, in. order that they should be put in a proper, condition, to carry stock;,' : f- . CO-OPERATIVE WORKERS AND ,;V: THE LAND.. "/"j': Mr. MACDONALD -(Bay- of -Plenty) said ho did not think the "country: was going beyond what'it could well afford. He proceeded, to defend the co-operative system. Some provision "would "be, made in the Land Bill to enable men who had been employed on railway construction works .to have an' opportunity -of taking up land. • /-. ■: '-: ;.-. Mr. JENNINGS (Taumar.unui) sup-.i ported the final suggestion voiced by; Mr. Macdonald"-, ;.The system 'of'classi-: .fication iri' 'co-opbrativo works -had "had; very :satisfactory, ; results'.'. "In tho;list! of. works, to ,be carried., out; "arid "out; lined by the 1 Prime. -Minister '.recently the Stratford-Ongarue line had -not 1 been mentioned, although: , the • .Prime 'Minister had stated publicly that .this; work ,was to bo .carried':orit.;.'-:He -hadheard complaints from; his'electorate in: this connection, . but had . assured ; the complainants that ,a :mistake ' must; have beeri made. .He hoped the. Prime' Minister would ;p.ut, the matter.right".. LOCAL GOVERNMENT REFORM. ' Mr.' MANDER (Marsden) "believed, it was .necessary"to borrow money" for; the development works, that have to bo carried ou. It was the way tho money was. expended that he had to complain of. , The. money was not spent, judici-'. ously, and did not; yield as many-'milfeß"; of railways as it. should. Under the, : co-operative system; ."-'the' inferior; worker had to be carried "by "; the superior' worker on his back. .The good men and the 'inferior men, should' bo classified. He would_ not object to , the inferior men. -getting: 'paid.-at.. .'a higher rate.; The -superior men should net suffer at the expense, of. the . inferior men.- As regards local government reform, if the House devoted the rest oftho session ;'to the'- sfibiect the' country! would be more satisfied.' He had beon told that if he would;,turn, to the'Gov- ' ernment side' the electors would carry: him in. The'present>system of grants' was a demoralising scramble. - It could' not be denied that political influence, was iised. On many occasions co-opera-tive workers had been sent into a, district, to help a Government member whose position was weak. That system lie admitted had not been .- invoked so much in recent years. Mr. WILFORD (Hutt) held that the discussion should close, as the Bill would pass without a division; He hoped, however,-that the Primo Ministor would reply to. the criticism on the procedure in regard to the raising ofloans'. Like other members lie could not say that lie" was satisfied with tho amount of money that was oxpended in his district. (Laughter.) He hoped that the Government would see its way' to harnessing'the falls in his district, for the purpose of electrifying the, Hutt: suburban railway service. - , j Mr. OKEY (Taranaki) pointed out that the Stratford-Ongarue line ran through country that must bring diata return. Ho hojjed that tho Minis-

ter for Public Works would consider the Opunake-Stratford. lino in his Public Works Statement. He thought the public works were costing more than they should,, considering the up-to-dato machinery at hand. In his opinion, the railways cost twico as muca por mile as they should. He thought it was fair business to borrow from time to time for railway plant,' I 'but''.he wanted to know whether or not there was writing down, from time to time', as there should • be. :. Mr.. PHILLIPS (Waitemata) thought the time had arrived when a commission should be set up to inquire into tho question of co-operative labour, and' see' whether 'the country- is getting the best return from this system. The public works at, present seemed to take more of the nature of relief works than in carrying put the works in the most efficient manner. The construction- of new railways should/ he believed, bo under the control • of. the Minister for Railways. He was in favour of a Public Works Board-to assist the' Minister in-the allocation of money expended.' /. ROADS AND BRIDGES; VOT.ES UNSATISFACTORY. •Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) said' Parliament was getting degraded by the continual use of borrowed money, and constituencies were Being affected in the same wajr. He thought the present method'of voting money for roads and bridges wai .most unsatisfactory. There was really no ■ control by Parliament, and expendi-ture-was 'going ton all the time, in tfhich the representatives of .the people had no say.- A great deal ■of the expenditure voted by Parliament could with advantage be transferred to the local bodies tjiemselves. ; . ,A tooal Government Bill had-been asked for, but it appeared to bo impossible to get it. : - The Prime Minister:: "You will set it all right;"-: -' 1 Mr. -Massey: "In"'the' sweet by: "arid by." (Laughter.) ; '.Continuing, .'Mr/ Allen said, he had looked up: the -history .'of the Local Government Bills. - * .Tho: Prime'-Minister: .What-has the Local Government BilL'to do with this matter? ": ;' • Mr. Allen •; said ho hoped. to ' -see pro--, vision made iii the Local GovernmentBill for the. satisfactory, control of the expenditure, and so. get rid . of. 'the. trouble they : knew; so well at present.' The Bill had '■ a great; deal.to do', with - the : question.' In .1896 ono Local Government Bill had been brought in, in 1897*there-'were two, in 1898 one, .and' in.-1900 "there was another. It • was true t-lie Bills changed - their names, •'but..liKey;.]iad , .th6;.sanie''object,';.'Aribtlier Bill, camb in 1901 and still;"another ;iri*. 1.906. He hoped that- before this ,session ended we would not only havo a Local : Government Bill. brought. down, but that an attempt would be.niadeito place it 1 on-the: Statute Book and rid tho House' of the present" trouble..'in regard! tb votes. - Referring' . to ■' : tjio method of ; raising ;loans, Mr.';:' Allen: asked why Parliament'' could not get any .information as to ..the. raising:, of. these loans. -•-.■... ... '..The..- Prime: Minister: Tliatrisjabso-: lutely contrary'to fact. Mr.: Allen said ;he had -moved for "a ; return, but it 'had been opposed by the .Government. ": Another member had also, moved in the matter, but had beenblocked by the Government:; They had had no particulars of the cost, of raising' loans . for-; the . past four or five years. . Surely-thpy had a right;.to know; ,what .the loans cost, and he could not see. why- the Government opposed-these'•'■ re-. . tarns; Referring to the loan raised.- in' April- last, 1 he • could not agree, with • the', member;-for-'-'Wakatipu; .that': the loan, liiid bean raised; on. specially advantageous- terms. - He. wOuld like' to" know ho,w many..applicants had taken advanta,g? .of tho inducement".: to convert; their holdings in,regard .to, the last: loan. .The prospectus ;foi - ; ,the loan had; been com-' piled; .on i-muche'more: satisfactory- -lines than-. ; 'some:;previoiis:.ones. • It was: proposedto borrow?-- more" this year 'for i-p'ublio works- than"in - • any previous year.-'' -'. He agreed: with - tile Hon. R. M'Kenzie' ,that. : . 'tho, 'unfinished railivays ■'should I ,be_ qqinpieted'''first'■of '", ; '.-a"ir.' j It' ~ was ]. his'", opinipny.that' this country obuld .not. afford such palatial' buildings i as the Wellington, and'. Auckland 'Post Offices and tho. Bunedin Railway ': Sta-' tion. .The Premier claimed- that the increase; in . ; value of. property >. in New .' Zealand, was- :due to -borrowed nioney; '>He;-yould: like to ,knpw>wftgthef; if. - there 'had. been v ho' borrowing, "the. value} of -property: .would; not -.have..in-! creased; ; The . Prime llinistor. ; . complained 'that Opposition, tnembe'rs asked fpr'grants.. But were they liot'.entitled, to .have their :■ proper shaTo'? Why, the' Administration itself, had ,on one ocoasion invited .the', local 'bodies.:to sand in • claims for grants. ' • : '■ PREMIER IN REPLY. A'REMARKABLE SPEECH. - The. PRIME MINISTER (in reply) declared. that: Mr.'; Allen had > always favoured the construction of' the Railway; ; -afid wanted two other: .'railways in, his district. .'He; had heard Mr.: Massey say; that the country ...was getting -alarmed.' .; Alarmed at what ? ■>' Mr. -Massey: Your plunging, proclivities. ■ V : •'■Sir Joseph-: You.can't; in regardto. any work' that I. have- done; publicly,■ say'that. v: . . ' Resuming, Sir-Joseph said he .would like to know", why .'it should 'be said : that: the country was getting, alarmed. ; Was: it- owing to the taxation? • . ■■ :Mr. Massey: Partly that. ■ . Sir Joseph said that iiK Japan the :iricome tax.rah 'up-.to :s's. in the £ ; ill Germany 'a man. earning £400''per- annum paid £19 to general taxation,: and' .an' equal amount to-local taxation; Zand in France it was a . little greater. New •Zealand, was the lightest taxed country iu. the; world.. . ,:. Mr.-.' Massey: . Oh, what about: the Commonwealth? - . • :Sir : Joseph went on to sag that any. alarm' that' had arisen was due .to the 'bemoaniugs of. the- Opposition.':-; He; 'would' sooner "be an. optimist - than :a'miserable,: wretched, ■ poor, absolute,', almost politically prejudiced- hlind; passimist.-■ (Much. laughter.) ..Any alarmwas- due to the position that had been--painted by the Opposition.',: ■ :- Mr. .Massey:. On, .no, not by us. The Cast Loan. ■ V . Continuing, Sir:. Joseph said that, as; regards .the' last loan he .wished;, to ;ppint-dut t'hat there was no.;legislative authority to raise, the money till October 27.' If the Loan Bill had'been'pass-! •Ed before October 14, £1,500,000 could 'have been got at -99J net. ; Between tho 14th and the 20th it would havo been, difficult to get the loan except at heavy discount, /and between the" 20th and 28th -money had gone up.to 7 per cent. . There .was uncertainty as to-the' effect tho Geiieral Election was-going, ■to have: on the- financial market. ..That: was how it came about that, the raising of the loan had been deferred,, for' up to April thero was no opportunity to float the loan successfully. None of the other countries did as well.-as Now Zealand when'it raised this loan. Why . were ./ the _ five-year doben--tures converted . into 3J per cent, stock? ' This was the practice 'of other' countries. It - was to enable powerful financial organisations to protect their clients against loss—to give, them sufficient time to find clients to take up the loan. The margin was provided so that t'liey might have an inducement to offer to investors to take'up the loan. Was £96 10s. a bad'transaction, when it'was",-remembered that another country took £92? The full information in. regard to the last loan had:riot .yet reached New Zealand. . •' - The Bill was then read ; a second time. ; - :' • ■