"ROTTEN TO GORE."

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 888, 6 August 1910, Page 6

"ROTTEN TO GORE."

i ' NATIVE LAND POLICY. '1 ' ; STRONG ATTACK BY MR. HERRIES, 1 REPLY BY HON. J. CARROLL. During the Budget Debate in the House of.' Representatives last. night, ' ;. Mr.; Herrie3, M.P. ;for Tauranga, made ■ a , strong attack ;on tho Native land i- ;]r: poHt7, : jvhich ';<lrew- from tho Hon. ' J. W'.it'.'.Carroll (Minister, for Native Affairs) a •V ~ i !-..defence...of the steps which have been j I taken during recent: times to sottlo tho 'jfNativo . laud difficulty. .-, i-v-'j;;} ')Mr. : Herries. traced the .history.', of legislation iri .successive -. v i- years, lip ' to 1900;'., The Government . system of acquiring' Native land , was, ; he':said, '.tho worst possible that 1 could i he'devi&ed, as far as tho Natives; wero ii; concerned.' As a rule, the negotiations i.V; ji'i were'begun just when tho. Natives.most >'|; : needed 'money. Equally bad was tho Native land, 'legislation, of 19(10 from - ' l-.tbezpoia.t of view, of tlie pakeba. Very little t laiid : was vested- in • the land •' boards, and if the history of that land ;V'- followed up ;it;,W().uld b'ho-.v a- paor •I attempt at. settlement. ' He .found 'that 234iC100..' acres . were " 'put . .under tho • boards,, but' there was no official re- '; turn on the'subject. .". In many cases tiie lands had ultimately to. he offered . ■ "at"sroiitly reduced prices," and much of-it 1 was iwt-settled :yet.; . Vv Mr. Carroll:. It will all g0.."" ■[ Mr. Herries said, that ;tho legislation ... of 1901). was' a fiasco:. No Maori", could vbe induced to part -wit-li his land arid •i\' : 'j';pnt-it under,a'-board unless very good jl xeasoris wens put before him. He. would itadmit ■ ' that > the' 'of ••. " 1905 - mitigated the/ disastrous efof /the legislation', of 1900: A Futile Commission. - PitV if. -He was riot alluding to tho personiinel!. of the Native Land '.Commission,; V :." Übut; ho; thought'- its; efforts. bad,;been ■ '"futile, .as the information ;could -havo i':.; :>]}beeh obtained in,' other .ways. As tho result'of.tho commission's report about [i- f . ; ; :SOO,OOO acres of Native lands had been f-'\ '.vested iii,-the/Maori'boards.' Only, a hi - iismall amount of the land had been oflr.'. '"i'fored for settlement:'; "What actual setiitlement had taken place? < .That was i 'ij|tlio ;.inain :thing. ' Of : what, 'use were .'tho' recommendations'' of the;' cbmims--5;. r ;ision?- : .The'^commission ; -recommended - i tliat' thcpurchaso of Native - lands by' ' .'• ' ithe' Crown ' under tho existing' system !•:■■. .'.ibo discontinued. Why, the Governiinent'. were 'borrowing £500,000.f0r the ' of. Native, lands. : . : |i.-: ij Sir Joseph : Ward:-The system' is not,! ! . . 'now the same.; •

?itr;Herries,: -. There is little difference. ■ ; ■ ' :!r;'Continuing his remarks,: Mr._ Herries ■'-said the.-commission ..were -against pri-. "ivate; alienation. Now, however, , the , 'door in that '. respect had; been opened, ,wider than- ever. ' ".-'Upholders: of . the samo views' which , he held had got "into .'irecent legislation-a clause which would :'tend ■ towards - a.i lot of -: settlement. iWhat was the Nativedand pohcy? The .iSovernirient' in ;its. ;treatment of, the ■Natives - was-' like a .doctor who..first ? ;(feat<-d. ,a _.patient; for. ..smallpox, i but l<}iltiinately.i found' that he ..was . (iuffering. -c'&om' meaisles. (Laughter.) .. '-•jf:Mr. :Carroll: ItV'stood.'• all youras- . uaults. ■i-t'-Mr.'Herries: You have got a majoritv.in tho House. ■; ■■' - . ■ : ;!i:;Coritinmrig his remarks, .Mr. Herries '; iiaidjthat' jf Mr. Carroll 'would .go with liiiiVintb 'a'Native' district he : would be ;Hiold.that the Government's I .system , was to tho core." . . 'il Mi-rCaTroll: Just'xbe samo old cry. Tho Communistic State. . : : Mr. Herries went oij to say that' Mr. . tjarroU's'-'ideai appeared. to be" to' keep v-'flie.:Nativos in,the''-coriimunistic state; ■ ilie-wanted tp.'dest-roy all'individualism; What would be- the, goal of,' his (Mr. v.Caffoil's) scheme? . It' must lead '.'to ( Eegregatio'n of the "Natives. ; :'Mr. Carroll: It leads,to settlement. "|Mr. Massov: Not at all..- . Mr. Hemes: The result would bo : ti> skeep'the .'Maori, down as a separate race—as. a separate 'entity. , For -himself, ho (Mr._ Herries) . ' to bring ■ up'-'tho/Maori:'.in 'the''same way as the i-.imropean.; He did. not want to sco tivo . separate 'races;•'•"he wanted . to ~sbe; both - .:races . working" , .v.lr the'-Mabri were:to be kept- 5 in' a sys- : tism of savagery, he-could never.arrivo at the proper goal. " ..'Mr,. Carroll.:': What is: to , stop indi.vidualisation now. , , ' ': ';.j'Mr.-Herries:- The law.; stops them. - Mr. Carroll: The courts are open to t-iem. . .' •' 'v ; . '; / ji Mr. Herries:' But .'you know,what.that ■-costs..' .. •["Resuming,' ' Herries said . that. ; there'was now a-provision whereby a .. Nativo who held :nis ' area , severally :' could get himself constituted a 'Eurojwan : .air far aS' his lands were'concerned. He , would i make- ; those" Maoris who were - lilted;'-' Europeans at - once—sweep tho - shackles : olf them in one- act: (Hear, •fears.) . It must; be admitted that a ;s;rs'tem of ■ iiidividualisation ■ would not : aj>ply to a great many Natives!; But .'■anlbss . there, was 'a ' beginning .they . would,, ne.ver get the Natives out of the,-, communistic /system::' As :: regards; •ailministration, ' ho ' would reorganise tlie system of the Native Land Court : 'judges- and , the Native land , boards.]. . He. was • glad to - seo-. tliat the' circuit •System .had been introduced. !.■-Further Alterations Necessary. If -ho had his way he would unite, '• tKe Native Land Board and, tho Nativo L;ind 'Court and make , exchanges and individualisatibn compulsory;' A judge should be compelled to go "round if ho - ( .6aw "a: block which oould be individual- : Fully half .the. blocks of ;Native .lands; could be treated in that way. • ; jlr. Carroll: There is nothing to stop it' itOW.' .' , ; •' ••.'.•■ ~

-. Yes, ; the cost of suri veying.' ; - : ' , -V; : ..' ■.

: .'4ln conclusion, Mr. Hcrries said he believed: that it' would pay the Government to do the surveying for; tho Natives. Partitions, in his opinion, should bo, compulsory. He had no sympathy with' those who would like to. see the Niitive, lands taken, .under .the Lands for'. Settlement system;' . That would be a yery. unjust'thing to do. Tho reason why' the .Natives were not liisiog their lands was because tho -law would .not allow them. One of the owners might wish to work a property, but tho others might not agree. HON. J. CARROLL REPLIES. OPERATIONS TO DATE. - The ■Hon.'. James Carroll (Native Minister) complimented Mr. Herries on tho nice manner in which ho had re- ' fcrred to. tho Native race. .Whon one lodkeil into Mr. Herries's Nativo policy, howover, one found that ho blow hot and ..blew cold. The; Opposition were < more to blamo than anyone else for the delay Vin. settling Native lands. Tho European was getting all the consideration .all: the time, and not tho Maori, because of; the increasing lust and greed foi; "..Nativeland oil the., part of . th'j people. Wa& it ; fair to thrust ■upon, the. .Maoris ■ all the. facilities of: private acquisition :of land*? Many of: the Native lands , were .held by a hwidred owners, and much of the land was incapable of individualisation. The Native had had only 50 years to .reach the'samo position as the European. If froc trade was allowed to-morrow, the bulk'of thoir land would go. It was far bettor to go more slowly, to - have.

every transaction examined carefully, and so to reach the goal gradually, instead'of being too precipitate at tho expense of the Native population. ,I'hcy. should jealously safeguard tho land that was still left to tho Maori. Ho had only 7} million acres left out of 6G million acres that wore formerly his.' If they 'were to- lcavo tho Maori out of consideration, to-day, tho Opposition might wish to leave out the workers or any other class to-morrow. Tho Maoris were air part of the general community. ' ' ' What the Position Is. Tho position of the Native lands in tho North Island as at March 31, 1910, was as'follows: — . . , • - Acres. Area of Native land held by Maoris on December 31, '• -1908. ;...' 7,465,000 Loss —: . _ ' ■ Area' sinco acquired by . Crown purchase • 23,300 - Since acquired .by private , purchase 38,550 • . Sold and included in error , on commission's ; estimate 20,000 , Rivers, lakes, springs,, etc. 200,000. Area to which title just been ascertained 113,281 Papatupu. land (titles not ' .investigated) ' 377,471 Balauce subject to..Urcwera Native Reserves 1 Act ... 466,802 Balance subject to Thermal Springs 'Act 188,408 Leaving .a net balance of 6,037,128 - 'Of. this area 2,675,177 acres is leased direct by Maori owners and_ is leased on : behalf .of Maori owners, whilst 360,000. acres consist of lands in Maori/ occupation as, papakaingas and •farms,-making. a. grand total of 3,592,676 acres profitably occupied and an approximate balance of 2,444,452. : •' • ono Hundrsd Surveyors. Mr. Carroll stated that the three million, acres, of Native lands which had been settled wore taxable. There were four counties aggregating three . million acres in the North Island where neither European- nor Natives were, paying rates. The Department had. every surveyor it'could-lay hands on working in ithe field',. and. the survey staff had not .been -withdrawn in the winter, .according to the usual practice. ' Altogether there were 100 surveyors in-the field preparing lands for settlement. They were : dealing - with an area of 465,749 acres.. The wasto lands. of the Maori to-day were chiefly mountain, country, bush, and. fern, country, /and tho less fertile::soil.,,, The-cream of the Maori land- had ,been secured years ago by the enterprising pakeha:,, and it. was a difficult matter; to open , up remote areas for settlement.-', He was doing, his; best to open up those blocks, and lie had always done his best, and had ijreated'this matter as a national subjectj in - which ho; had; sp.ught ' for the co-operation'of.'thVv.'Oppbsit'ion. ' - Mr.-Masscy: We're making-you move; a little. ' ' " . ' Mr. .Carroll: It takes a lot to make mo nio'vo ' outside my own volition/ ' (Laughter.). . .. . ' ■ ' ■ ■ Speculators Not Favoured. '-Mr. Carroll- denied Mr. Hogg's, state: mcnt that, tho Government's, legislation; favoured the land speculator. ' Under' the Act the limitation'of area .allowed; only 640: acres of first-class land •to be taken up, 2000 acres of second-class, andssooo, acres of: third-class, . with a; provision. that the third-class limitation might be .exceeded if, owing to special' circumstances, 5000 acres would- not; allow;of' profit-ablo occupation., Thoro was nothing to prevent different-mem-; bers - of; a family: taking- up land,-; -buteach member' had to make, a'sworn declaration that, ho was -not acting- for anybody-'clse, "and that he was a bona fide settler. There, was no collusion to, enable certain families to secure large 'areas. Mr. Hogg had 198,420 acres leased among 82 persons," ; but that was only an average of 2420. acres to each person, and this' was. remote backblocks land. Mr. Hogg ap-, .peared to. have strange ideas about' tho area of such land that could Ixs profitably occupied. In, some of tho cases, referred to by Mr. Hojjg that member had written to him asking him to support the application; What 'reliance could ho placed on ■ Mr. - Hogg's state-' meats? They . could only treat him gently. . Native Townships. . '.' .Speaking of Maori .townships,. Mr.' Carroll "said that in 1903 there was only ono ;building arid: only one European';in Taumarnriui. . '; Mr. ■' Massey: Tliere : .was 'no railway then. ■' .. ■ ■' Mr."Carroll: It was approaching from both ends. Tho place had developed so much by 1907 that it then proclaimed, itself a Town Board, and now it was to be-'made a borough. .-The capital value, according, to. the latest figures, .iras:'£23,7oß, of. which- £16,343; represented the unimproved value. Lately the Natives had voluntarily given £500 out of their rents 'to improvo the roads in the township. Wonld Europeans have dono that? A member: Yes, if... they had any sense. Mr. Massey: ;.You. ;know that the. Maoris there , aro going to . tho . bad as •fast as they,can go.''Mr.; Carroll went on to speak:of thu ireoont development. of : To Kuiti and. ; other Native townships. He hoped that they Would be able to' purchase U.tiku direct from. .the Natives. He intended'to ask Parliament-to give the Government. power to buy it. Hei was prepared to take power for the purchase by; the' Crown of the freehold .of these Native townships,-.but, if the House wanted the sale to bo compulsory by the' Maoris, -let it put, the Nativo on tho samo plane as tho European, and make tho same Act govern both. He was quite; prepared that no Euzopean - or Maori should ■ liold ; land in a town without being subject to the option of sale. Mr. Massey: Make tho - Maori tho same as the European I ' - Air.. Carroll: If you are prepared to do that in your cities—Mr. Massey: You a'ro begging the question. "Put Both Races on the Same Basis." ■ Considerable confusion reigned for a few seconds, during which Mr. Carroll and Mr. Massey were heard mutually -challenging each other to put tho two races on the samo basis., Finally Mr. Carroll said: "If you want moro than the right of the Maori to sell, and yott want to make the sale compulsory, then I say do not experiment with Ihe Maori.' .Put them • on the same plane and make one Act cover both."

In concluding his ..speech, Mr. Carroll declared that lie would always tako his share in any matter, legislative or otherwise, intended .for the betterment of the whole Dominion. He was always at hand' at tlie' call of the people to do tho best' he could, but'he would never forget the race he represented.