THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 886, 4 August 1910, Page 6

THE HOUSE.

p||i||^'K^ ; .HEßßA i Llsfs' i BILL.' : - v : : f.i'y <;":'"'■'Wh'eh' ; .the' sittings of--the : House.were t : <i-V- '■'?. T ?^ -' JKterday, -Mr.. Wilford■ (Hutf) £^7-;> l *a've: : .'notice.of'his : -intention' to'ask leave .the Herbalists ■ Bill, 1910. lISfeFINANCIAL DEBATE. : ''"' te^'-^*;HfeV:K.:^' : 'f-e : ~v "■■:■'':■; "■"■: ■ VIEWS. ' Jvfe, , -' , .-ißesumihg' the debate o'i the Budget, M-LABBN" (Wellington, Bast) stated y-i-'S;y'.".tnat"."he;:would"like.to.see the'land quesf rf.Vj:'\V "tiou -thoroughly gone, into! .It-was, stated ['•:T*:;. i *.' , that'.,'a'majority, l 6f members were free-s-I'-.-'-""holders,: bnt it.jwas ridiculous to believe : .-::'..' -that.-'Members. , were sent to the; House ;7;;!';.°n that, one • issue. According to his i-^.-,.■view's.the Conservative representation had -v', ;.■■',au undue advantage in.the House, for he ;';.v.;., felt .that the power of an elector's vote i; ■'•' '/was' not. equal throughout the country— 0 -itf -■ iri rural districts -the vote of 'anelectbr »:.-,,"■. • '.was' of a value,of 1} :as cbmpared with a :j~-:/.': : yahio .of\l/in; the cities. He could ;<;y:-y :.not understand how Mr: Fisher,. who was *:■,'"":;■' BSainst .the 'alienation'-'of:- Crown lands, ■>.: : ; : .; -; could ! vote" for. the warit-6f-confidence mo--,,;i ';,■.,Hon.^ -H was true that too inuch of 'the ','...- Crown lands-had-already, been' alienated. y.'.V ' : From ;',what: he could; gather tho Oppo- ■.:■-;.:": ;>i.tion.'wanted to,'sea the settlers get tho ,;,-.. freehold-:whether-they wished to uso the ;...'.■' '■ . ..whole of their properties or not. Ho -was ;■ ;'-:':;a Socialist and looked for constitutional <•.•;.;-.■•- changes along the line of greater public ,:,-. ownership ~of,; . la'nd and :'capital.- Before :■- - Mr.Herdman argued that there was too;y.,::; much interference • ivitli industry he' . v ■-..,. Bhoiild go into'particulars.. It:was fool- ":•;,- ishness to talk to'the mass of the people :-; ;.-' about being strong and stout-hearted and ,> Belf-reliant when those who spokesb-wero •:'.-'in,comfortable circumstances, and it took ■ ,■■';■• ™ working classes all their time t'oexist. ::-., . lhe■■..Opposition never complained of :'V ;; -' . St at », help to the farmer. (Mr. Malcolm: ■ - ■) es they have.) Mr.. M'Laren referred -.- <to dairy schools, cheap railway transit :'.: : and ..other forms of assistance which ho ;•,:.-■■. said the Opposition, were quite willing to \ : ;j/. tnkeior, the farmer, while they screamed ~', ."oocialism", against any proposal to give '■-.:':' similar assistance to town workers. There ;,■;■■;.'• was V class of traffickers in land values' :■'.... ,wlio:desired hot to. settle on the land, ',■'■■-. . but to. settle on . the people and . suck ".,'.their very .life blood.. When land was :;; sold in Queen Street, Auckland, at ,£6-12 ."' ..': a' foot, one discovered that there was a ■ . '■ kind, of land settlement that was inimical ...'.; to the. interests of, the State,' and re- ■,':■■'■,■' quired to be suppressed. The important ; .: 7-. -issue was not- tetween /leaseholders and ■''':. ; freeholders, but between', those whom he might call ."iise-holdefs" and "trado-'-holders.".' , . . ;, ;.,::. ; ' : MR. ANDERSON'S REMARKS. ,-' : ;, Mr. ; ANDERSON; (Matoura)'said he did ,;■;,' ft think that there was any .member on ■ :-;■ the Opposition side who would'not agree y. •-..; .with.Mr. M'Laren in denouncing traifick- ,:,-,•.-,'. lng.in.land. Ho-believed himself that it ;■:-,. . was.a, curse to any..country : whcn land .;■-. . Tftluesvwere unduly raisid"for speculative

reasons. The Opposition desired that every man, whether- lie had ■■•■money or not should be able to get a piece of land, and make it his own by the deferred payment system. No one wanted.land.monopoly; the Opposition waflttU settlement, and settlement on the best form of tenure, lie had been told lately by a leading Duncdin financier that money was I leaving tho country, and specific instances -were given him. JIo did not know what tho cause was, unless it. was the harassing legislation'of the Government during recent years. Mr. .Anderson conipliraented tho Hon. J. A. Jtillar upon his generally satisfactory conduct of the railways, but stated that there were some matters that wore not satisfactory. It was complained that under the Classification Act second :division men had. veyy.-.little, chance of getting into" the', first division. He jlioped that the tindemocratio line drawn between the two divisions would be obliterated.. Mr.-Anderson , also objected to the provision that imported, timber should pay half freights. Any tax required to restrict the competition of imported timber should be plac'ed on it at the wharf, and.there should: not'be'a'second railway tax, the effect of which was to discourage people from mating their homes in the 'country. •

MR. SMITH DEFENDS GOVERNMENT v: ' ■ FREEHOLDERS. j .'Mr. SMITH (Hangitikei) declared himself a freeholder to the backbone, but added that he and other Government freeholders were not going to bo duped into supporting Mr. Massey's .-. no-confidence amendment merely because:it contained 'the freehold.- If the'amendment had been carried they would have rejected the. Budget—a , Budget which had created the greatest satisfaction;, to-.all classes, of the community, lie'asked'Mr. James Allen, who;had laughed at his freehold profession, to submit a plain issue on tbo land question, when the •La'nd Bill came down, a plain 'issue with nothing else attached to-it. If an amendment l were then submitted .to give lease-in-perpetuity tenants the option of the freehold on a basis that would make-them equal to holders under occupation with right of purchase, ho would .support -such >an amendment, but he.wtfs not going to ..'be entrapped. But the most unfair aspect of Mr. Massey's. : motion was that it had been, brought down before the "Government, had expressed, its intentions. "Who -knows," said Mr.' Smith, "that tho Government's legislation, .when is not going to contain even , more than Mr. Massey asked for?" Mr. Smith went on to defend the facilities at present given by the Government to settlers, and the progress* made in opening up tho land. ;More consideration:had;been. given to the farming "community than to any other. He went'on to say..that,he..thought that the limitation of area was already small enough.' .For/.himself, ho had no escuso to.offer for his vote against "tho want-of-confidence motion. The' Land Settlement Finance Bill should in'his opinion apply to Native lands: ■ There was not now so mrich.: Oregon, pine- coming into the Do'minion, bufif .its importation was not discouraged, the .timber,'.industry of this country would 'be ruined. 1 . It .could not be doubted but. that''{he-Timber Commission'_'intended" to recommend that the duty on imported timber "should be increased. The millers were,.'he held,, not responsible for the 'high , price of . • New Zealand timber. ■ : , '-.•'."■ ■:". •••,-,/

v Hon. 'T. Duncan: .When the millers had to put. on. an' additional.shilling per 100 .to meet further'expenses they put on another : .shilling fiif''t.h,ein's*lves. :•. SPEECH 3Y MR. L RUSSELL. Mr. RTfSSELL (Avon)./consiSefcd. . the prospects,oMho Domimoii'vbry bright at present. He bDlieyed. that.' : they -wero' about, (o enter another era of big surpluses and large..contributions from' the Consolidated Fund Vto" the/Public Works Fund. .'lf tbc"LenaeK'of"the Opposition raoved.a straight-out vote of no-confidence in. the..Gbye'rnmeiit,',tlie "five Government freeholders who,,voted' .iv.ith.',him recently would be found'on'thO'iGovernment side. .The Government, in- his).:opinion, could /not, be justly ( accused of : inactivity in re!gard ;to land "settlement... In' regard to ■■the question of :tenure s .there was ample ;Tdom for an honest'difference of opinion. 'If the Government .wept to the oouutry on'a 'leasehold policy it, would win. all ■along the line.' , : '■'.-•.-, .-IT-,..'..- . ■

>' Mr. Okey: Come: up .and contest my eeat.- - , .■ . •:* . .■ .* •. *■ ; . *

.. Mr.'Kussell.. (resuming).'saiil that lie ■was prepared to help settlers as much as 'possible without'giving them the goodwill of their-laud.- If-the" freehold was the general. tenure, how could the Govern'liient prevent roaggregation ? - .-■.•' .:, Mr.': Pearcei They;-prevent it in Den'mark.,' *.. ■' .'.■ "■ ■■■•"', ■-.'. ;■,•. .-..•.

: Continuing, ,his renlarks; , ' Mr. Eussell 6aid that' he': had no-sympathy'with 'the ■newcomer bringing./.lnthf.'him ' who ■wanted to get'at once;iipon Government land. ,Such a , man- , could take his to the .brokers. The:,availablo land-for ssttlement- in New, Zealand was so lim■ited,. that .w'e.Vsliould.inoyev be able to satisfy the'earth-hunger-j-'of. our own :pepple, and our' own young men Ehonld .be,considered before strangers. To give ;the option of, the freehold, to Crown ten'ants would have a bad effect upon the ■money, market of: tlie "Dominion..-. The State-leased lands ' ' 18,700,000 acres, of _a capital value of eleven and,a half -million''pounds; and to throw that •huge' area , : '.before ' 'the', money-lenders would mean raising the rate of interest ,'tor years to come. ■ z^ ~1 . " MR. GUTHRIE ON THE LAND .^QUESTION.•:;.: , '~''.■; Mr.-GUTHEIE (Oroun), combated the suggestion that . tlie ' Farmers' Union were supporters of land monop'ol.Tj and stated. that those who made such. a statement did notknow what the objects of tho union were. He, read .from the platform' of the' Farmers' Union to show the.incorrectness of the assertion. The land- question was"-absolutely the 'most important; question with which' Parliament had to deal. . At the last election the people of New Zealand sent to tho House a big' majority, of freeholders, and Mr. Massey had only , carried- out the mandate given him by. that election in bringing his no-confidence., amendment before the House. He thought that a stormy passage was' before those freeholders who had voted with, the Government on the clear-cut 1 freehold issue set before them by the amendment. It had been: said: what matters: this word tenure? The word tenure' might .not matter much'if.tho conditions,surrounding tenure'were rijjhfand just. When the lease-in-perpetuify system was introdu"ed, people' were told that it was practically the freehold, but afterwards it dawned on certain people in the cities more especially that tho State had made a bad bargain in parting with these lands for 999 years for ' a peppercorn rental, and a Pair Kent Bill'was brought in for the ■ purpose of re-assessing the rental. " That was the worst thing that ever, happened to the ]ease-in-perpetuity tenure. Where, was such a process to end? The ultimate effect of the Fair Kent Bill was that as a security in the money market the lease-m-perpetuity' absolutely passed out. Mr. Guthrie also read evidence placed befoTe the Land Commission to show that there was an earnest ' desire for the option of the freehold on the part, .of the Crown tenants. If they were given the opportunity of the freehold,, they'would have some object in working hard and getting the utmost out , of the land. Ho saw no' reason why. the option of the freehold should not be given to Lands for Settlement land settlers as well as to those- under leaso-in-perpetuity. The Opposition had for some.timo past advocated closer . settlement.- which , he thought could Im> carried a , great ' deal further than, it was at present. Holders of renewable leases should' also be given the,option of tho freehold. Only a foreshadowing of the local government proposals was given in the Budget. The promised Bill should prest-rvc: what was good in tho present system, and he would like to see included in it the provisions of the, old. JjOans .to ~soca] Bodies Act, for the benefit of. counties and rond boards. When these bodies borrowed for roads and bridges, these were more than local works, and the country as a whole should contribute to .their' cost. The Education Boards had done a great deal of good in the past, and ;ho would not like to see any changes that would im- ! pair: the education system. Education ' was a national obligation, and it should not bo made dependent upon local contributions. ~; Great attention,- should bo given, to'the Question of subsidies to local

bodies, and also educational subsidies. When money was spent on primary or secondary education, a national • service was pertormod, ami all such contributions for tho sake of education should carry with them subsidies. Mr. Guthrie expressed, regret that it was necessary for him to abridge his remarks, owing to a sore throat. ': SIR WILLIAM STEWARD. ', Sir \V. J. STEWARD (Waitaki) urged that, it was vain to say that certain moiubers were inconsistent in voting against the propositions contained in Mr. Massey's amendment, though they had previously affirmed some of those propositions. The question on which members voted was simply that certain words should stand part of the motion. It was vain to say' that members voted on any one of the distinct proposals put forward by Mr. Jlassoy. If. the words in the motion had been' struck out, other words than those contained in jlr. Massey's amendment might havu been inserted. Ho telieved that the vote of the members referred to represented the feeling of tho constituencies. Sir William Steward went on to express • certain requirements of Crown tenants, including a more liberal interpretation of'the term "improvements," the granting of which, he claimed, would do much to extinguish the demand for the freehold, on the part of tenants. He admitted that a cajse might bo made out for tho salo of the freehold of bush and swamp lands, which might not be taken up on any other terms, but in all other oases he believed in the renewable-lease system. He had hot much hope of the accelerated settlement of Native lands, l>ecause for many years hope had told a flatterins tale, and it had been a case of hope deferred. Hβ was not. certain that a Local Government Bill would 1m) passed this session. The speaker made a plea for a modified form of Provincial Council. If provision were made for the amalgamation ol loca: ■ bodies as at present constituted, an inevitable process of subdivision would immediately . set in;, and the present. order of things would quickly be. reverted to. He favoured largo administrative bodies, to each of which a definite proportion of the Dominion's revenue should be .given. These bodies should have to provide roads and bridges. "By this means," said Sir William Steward, "you would make them real local administrative bodies, and you would make the House a Legislature pure and simple, or very nearly so." The debate was adjourned at 11.15 p.m., on tho motion of Dr. Tβ Rangihiroa, and tho House then rose. ■