NO CONFIDENCE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 880, 28 July 1910, Page 6

NO CONFIDENCE.

CONTINUATION OF THE DEBATE,

THE FINANCIAL ASPECT.

INTERESTING SPEECH BY MR. FRASER.

Only, formal business was transacted it. the House yesterday afternoon owing to the'death of. the Hon. Honry Scotland, M.L.C., and it was then decided to adjourn until the evening, out of respect for his, memory. In the evening the Rebate, on the want-of-confidence motion on the Budget was continued. , Mr. \\>. Fraser (Wakatipu) opened with ,'a critical speech, in which he dealt with the public debt extinction schemo and other proposals, besides the main question involved, viz., land settlement and tenure. Other speakers were Messrs. Stalhvorthy, Noswortliy', and Okey, and at 11 p.m. the .discussion was further adjourned till this afternoon.

" WANGANUI CHURCH ACRE BILL. • The House met at 2.30 p.m. yesterday. '■ The Wangauui Church Acre Bill (Mr. ;Hogau) was read a second time. Mr. B'ogan. explained that the object of the Bill was to enable the Church of, England to lease a piece of ■ very valuable land iu the main'street of Wanganui. '

DEATH OF THE HON. H. SCOTLAND,

The Houso then adjourned till 7.30 p.m. out of respect to the memory of the .late Hon. H. Scotland, whose death was announced .by the Prime Minister. References were made .to the character and services of the late Mr. Scotland, which are reported in another column,. . NO-CGNFIDEMGE MOTION.

DEBATE CONTINUED,

SPEECH BY ME.FRASER,

lilr.- W;. FKASEH (Wak'atipii) resumed tho debate on the Budget at 7.30 p.m. Ho spoke as an advocate of tho freehold principle in connection with the occupation of land. Had that principle been adopted there would have been no necessity for such'large-borrowing for the acquisition- of private '-estates for oloso settlement. They would have had all tile money they required for" that purpose without borrowing. It was not too late yet to adopt the principle. As regards the present system of making votes for public works, ,Mr. I'raser - spoke at length. The whole system of turning Parliament into a boaid of works should be ended. It had a demoralising effect on'the whicli was tempted to do things .which they would sooneT not do. Jlore than that, tho system degraded Pivrliaineiit as a whole, ltefcrrhig to tho raising of money on behalf of this country, he expressed surprise. that tho Government was unable to give de-tails of the cost.' not suggest that too much .was being paid, for it; the Houso should be. placed in possession of the facts. Public Debt Extinction Scheme, Tho proposal to liquidate the national debt by sinking funds next engaged his notice. Great industry and some imagination hnd been displayed by the l'rimo .Minister in connection with his scheme. If tho. Government, took from the Consolidated Fund i' 150,000 per annum for this purpose it would neoessarily mean that that amount-'-would have to bo borrowed. For every -EIOO that was taken from 'the Consolidated Fund under this head .£IOO would have to bo borrowed.

Mr. T. E. Taylor: That means that we will have to borrow tho siuking funds. Sir Joseph: No, not at all. Mr. Eraser: .1 did not say that. Resuming, Mr. Eraser said that one of his first'objections to the schemo was the method' of investment. Not sufficient safeguards were to be provided. The human factor would enter into the matter. Ditl the Prime Minister think, that the next 75 years were all going to be golden years?- Unless the Department lent'out the money without delay as :Goon as it returned to it the suggested results •. could not hope to be achieved. Ho had nothing to say against the Civil Servants, but it would bo ■ far _ better if_ tho moneys wero invested in Commissioners outside the public service. Then again, supposing there was a wave of depression, how could those who borrowed the monc-7 make their payments? It had to bo remembered thaV thi lenders of money to the Dominion- already had security over the'whole of the country. Supposing that tho funds increased, as was believed, at what rate would all the money be reinvested within the Dominion? If tho Government, could show that it was getting 20s. of work for every pound borrowed, there would be no difficulty in raising loans. .. The Retrenchment Proposals. : It'was not to be wondered at that tho Ministry 1 had talked of - retrenchment when it saw that the revenue was decreasing and. the expenditure increasing. From the Prinie'lfinister's latest statement it appeared that the £310,000 alleged to have been saved in this connection' covered not a single year, but from the time that the scheme was started until tho. end of the last financial yc-ar. Parliament was entitled to have some particulars as to the savings At'Winton Sir Joseph had declared that the time had now arrived when further retrenchment was unnecessary. Ho wished .to remind him that prosperous times were the prooer period in which to apply the pruning" knife if it were found necessary. Mr. .Eussell: Do business houses do that? . ..Mr. Fraser: Business houses are established to. make money. Continuing Tiis remarks, Mr. Fraser said ■ that doubtless tho Government found that by turning out public servants it was making itself unpopular. The Government should institute inquiries/in the various Departments to see whether there was any truth in the'stateinent that some of theni were overstaffed. Further amendments wero required in regard to tho Laud Settlement Finance Act. That there wero defects in the measure was shown by the fact that only about half a dozen estates had come under its operations. WKen he had made bis suggestions the Prime Ministor should have accepted them in the spirit in which.they were given. Touching upon the public debt, Mr. Fraser emphasised the point that a guaranteed loan was as much a liability as any other portion of the moneys- which bad been borrowed. In conclusion, • Mr. Fraser declared that the real surplus for last yoar was very much less than was made.out by the Prime Minister.

REMARKS BY MR. STAUWORTHY. Mr. STALLWORTHY (Kaipara) saw no real objection to the public debt extinction fund, because in -a succeeding generation those- in power might'take the money. Members should remember that no Government had been more successful in obtaining loans than the present Government. Apparently no'matter what the Government did, it did it wrong, as, for instance, the retrenchment scheme. From his point of view the want of confidence amendment was a, farce. Most of the claims set forth in the' amendment were really "stolen" from the Government party. There was nothing wrong in a man holding a freehold and voting leasehold. It was his opinion that the "land sharks" of tho old days and those who wore to-day mopping up tho Nativo lands wero represented by members of tho Opposition. Tho amendment proposed that Crown tenants should get tho freehold at the original value, plus a percentage for additional interest. Would the Opposition agree to havo tho same principle applied to. private leases? As regards the suggestion to sell tho settlement lands and liu'y other lands, ho would like to point out thai as prices were .increasing it would, mean that,the State ,wo\ild be ex-

changing large areas for smaller areas. There could bft no doubt but that Native lauds were being mopped up by speculators.

• MR. NOSWORTHY'S VIEWS. Mr. NOSWOKTHY (Ashburton) urged tiiat the Uovcrmuent should not borrow money.for purposes of settlement while there were millions of acres of Native land awaiting development. The Natives should eithnr work their lands and pay their rates and. taxes or throw up their laud aud lot others lake it. A deferrcdpayinent system of freehold was preferable to auy leasehold system. An alteration was needed in the graduated income tax. At present the middle-class and the wealthy class paid less into the Treasury than men who were grinding their lives out in the backblocks. A readjustment of the incidence of taxation was required." It was true to a certain extent that the Opposition had been dropped by the large landowners. The explanation was that tbo larg« landowner!!, inu brewera, and the men with wealth thought, owing to the. democratic vote in this country, and the 191 years that the other side had been in power, that it was better, to make, terms with the Government parly.aud be safe in their position, _than stick to the party that was out of office. They'were no more to be depended on by the Government,, however, than they had- been by the Opposition. Every-element of Conservatism in the Opposition party was dead years ago, and it now comprised men who were as Liberal and progressive as any in the House. He "thought that the sinking funds for the extinction of the public debt should be invested in outside giltedged securities. He approved the na : tional annuities proposals, and he would always support tho principle of a Public Service Board. N If a Public Service Board were set up as the. result, of Opposition demands, the. present Opposition party would bo deprived of public service support when it came into power, but the Opposition wero prepared to make that sacrifice.

MR. OKEY ON LAND TENURfc. Mr. OKEY (Taranaki) said that: tho question of land tenure was on? ; of the most, important in .a youiig anil growing country. The present Minister for Lands did not have time to give that attention to tho land policy which it required. Land conditions wore very different in tho two islands, and.ho thought it.would bo in the interests of the Dominion to have .'a separate .Minister for Lairds for cach. It would be a good bargain for tho State to give tho freehdd to lease-in-perpotuity tenants at the original valuation, plus.one per cent; and compound.interest on that amount. If tho West Coast settlement lands went back into the hands of -the Natives it .would 1 mean a set-back to the district which no Government could afford. Tho new legislation in regard to loans'wan disadvantageous to tho smaller local bodies. Provision should be mado for lending money up to a certain'amount to backblocks settlers at 3i per cent. In connection with, eoy, the' metalling of rocds, it would bo unwiso to extend tho, period <Sf local bodies' loans, though when tho mousy, was lieeded for works that would outlast tlie loan the proposal might bo beneficial.- The-Loans-to Local Bodies Act had been of great valuo in awistiu a road construction in his district, and lie was only sorry that the Government had amended it as they had done. The Oil Industry. Tho Government should do all they could to assist the producer, to place lifs produoe in the best markets. Something should bo dono also to assist-local-indus-try, and he would support the Government's proposal to introduce tho 6Ugar beet industry. Steps of that kind should provide employment -nud lessen importation. He was doubtful, however,-whether the Government would-do much to assist industries, judging from tho experienco of tho Taranaki Oil Company. The Government had assisted gold-mining, arid why should they not assist the oil industry? They could not even gist a Minister to como up and see what tho industry was. >

The Hon. G. Fowldn: I have seen it. • Mr. Okey said' that the Minister for Education had never boon asked to inspect the industry. -The Primo Minister, the Minister for Mines, and other Minister's had been asked, and they had never made the visit.

Sir Joseph Ward: Assisting industries! is one thing, and assisting speculators another. Wo have to guard tho country against tho latter.

Mr. 01:py: You tire not assisting the speculators in this matter. •

Sir Joseph Ward: I don't know about that.

Mr. Okey: X°u are assisting men who have placed their money ihit for tie lost forty years. Other Governments had advanced as much as £20,000 without interest for tho advancement of such industries, on the understanding that if tho industry was a success the money sho'ild be repaid, but if it was all spent in unsuccessful prospecting the Government would give assistance. If it was intended that local bodies would havo to bear tho cost of education, the Government would find that it • was ono of the worst moves it had taken., Direct taxation out of tho land for education would be opposed throughout tho Dominion. In fact, tie Government would iiud their education proposals moro unpopular than the dairv regiUations about which so much had been heard. -

Sir Joseph: Nothing of the kind is intended.

Upon tho motion of Mr. Sidey (Dunodin South) the House, at 11.5 p.m., adjourned till this afternoon.