NO CONFIDENCE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 879, 27 July 1910, Page 6

NO CONFIDENCE.

GOVEMENT LAND POLICY ASSAILED

MOTION BY LEADER OF OPPOSITION,

PRIME MISTER IN REPLY.

OTHER SPEECHES.

''Tliat as the prosperity of this country;' depends so much.upon the,settlementof land, this House is of opinion that the Legislature should make provision this session for additional facilities for the occupation and most profitable use of the lands of the Crown:-—

"(a).By extending, the optional system both .to Crown and land for settlement lands,,and by removing every hindrance to- the- exercise of the option, which enables the settler to take' up land under the occupation with right.of purchase'. , '

'.';. "(b) By providing that all'lessees, under lease-in-, perpetuity shall have the right to purchase their freeholds at; the: original value either by instalments or otherwise, but -where they have paying 4 per cent, they shall in addition pay such an amount as 'will-make:their payment equivalent:to whatthey would ■have paid :had they .Held their leases on a 5 per cent, basis. ''.;.-.,' '. V- '-}. :'.-""''": ' ■"' '■' ""•. "'*. '■.-'.

"(c)'By/securing the limitation of area'of the freeholds so acquired.;. :'.'

"(d) By utilising the moneys 'derived from the sale of freeholds for the acquisition of further lands, for 'settlement. ■ . - . .

j "(e): By providing for the speedier opening up of the surplus Native lands for .'. settlement purposes, thereby making 1 such, lands contribute .their fair share to the general arid local taxation of the country."

■ In': the. House- of .Representatives yesterday'.evening:, the debate on. the'Financial/Statement was opened by Mr. Massey, Leader ,of ,'the Opposition, who was received with applause, ffpin both.sides of the.House.,. Mr.-Massey said'that ho •intended to move the amendment printed .ab0ve,,:.;,•.;. . -:..• ',; ■■•.'•,

Mr. Massey: said that he had not at- ' tempted in the amendment to deal witli every, aspect of' the land question. . To avoid complexity, ho''had. not dealt with endowment lands or. lands held under the renewable lease system.. Later he-would '"..'test.-the -feeling - of* thio House .on the question whether; the 'option of ; purchase - should 'be granted to : the settlers on endowment lands, and the money so derived used ; for -the purchase of: other lands.more;suitable and valuable for the Departments concerned. ', There was n '.provision of tho National- Endowment -. UVct'to! the effect that in the case oi ally settler who went on-to Crown land ana \ v took'up land under' the .renewable lease tho mere fact , of his'taking, it up under / that, lease'made it endowment land.. That was not. fair to tho settler, "and the ! "position should be remedied. Every, arguinent for the optional system .whicli ap- : plied to Crown lands applied with greater . ;force in'respect of settlement lands. "If 'the 'optional prjnpiplo was "applied to.set-- : ~/.tlemeht lands'there .would bo. a steady ' ;flow. of capital into tho .Lands , fojr, Set- . tlement fund 'which would enable bor- ■ rowing "ito be. curtailed.. --.The;. State ,allowed the full value of the, goodwill : to go to . the seller, under .the l<?ase-in-per-pctuity, I 'tenure, - and' gave, him the full ' ,value of the improvements. All that re- , ma'ined'; to' 'the State ■ was-the. reversion- ; -ary. interest., nft'er\9!)iryearv':whi'ch wasworth absolutely nothing; The' best ar- • Tangement would; be ;to allow ' the . lease-Mi-perpetuity . tenants .to ...purchase' their -holdings,. lit '•the"; original, value,' and let the State-pay themoney so received into , V : \the, Lands for; Settlement'■ fund.: v;' Settlement of .Native Lands. ' His suggestion to utilise the sale of free- ' lolds, : for the acquisition of further lands ,1-for settlement would be, agreed tq iinanimously ! if. it had-been'proposed from Jthe . i . Treasury benches; , , Probably ' the'.'most. :> important of'all the. proposals was tM ' ..last 0119,.f0r the ;spee<fier. ,'of . surplus/ Native-lands!- ;Native ownership" in its present form . was simply a curse .'j. -to; .the coramunity. ■ Mr. Massey -. em.phasised the, necessity of, an. improved . Native Lands -'Rating-,-'Act; : .and ' read statements made; at the recent conference .'.of chairmen of local bodies held in.; Auckland to show the. urgent importance of , . "opening,; up, Native. lands to .settlement., The matter of rating. 'on Native lands . -.was,' he said,. a -substantial ■ grievance, which.should be remedied before the ses- ; sion came to an.'end. ■" At the same time, v. he, did not: intend any - injustice. to the .'Native owners. .There- was a very , wrong ; . provision in the present law , that no judgment could be enforced against a Native for tho payment.'of his rates'without i.: the consent of the, Native Minister, and ho thought, that it' went 'without saying that the Native Minister 1 had never given his consent to any judgment 'being enforced. • '■'Natives;. Willing -to be Free.", . That day'he had received a-telegram from a resident, at Rotorua .protesting 'against .the of the ..Government in the matter. 'This resident said:' "The Natives aro .willing ,to be freeno. taihoa" ~ .' .' May God help you.'' There ~ were no .'details of the .land, proposals in the .Budget, .More than,ever was there a - . greater: cull .for land .'settlement and .security :of -.tenure.;, -Settlers ■ with-.money 'oame ,to / New: Zealand, and there were farm-hands; who ..had considerable, savings v 7, wanting laud, but under the. present system they might wait for years -before ; '• , -they. were, successful- at the..ballot. No v man of limited capital could afford .to v-' . interfere with Native land under existing circumstances.: If the personnel .of the •present miscellaneous .Ministry We ex- ,. arained,, it would be found -that:' not a single member oi .it hiid'heen through the! / mill;* not,one of them had-'practical'"ex- ;: .perience of pioneer settlement; consejquehtly their sympathies' were not' with . - tho aspirations of the settlers; they'simply did not understand it. He did';npfc.say : that the Government. had. not done anything in the direction'-oE land settlement; what he did say .was that it had not done •iiearly. enough;; ,' : Some Interesting Figures. " He wished to quote a few figures taken ■ , from the Government's own tables:—' . . ...... • 1009.. ,1910. Ordinary Crown land taken' ' • • up. for cash (acres) ... 42,129 8,613 Occupation with the right .of purchase (acres) . ... 123,116 108,151 New. selections and additions to holdings ...... ~ 267,';. .291 ' ■'Selectors' areas 95,651 88,919 Annual rentals' ..... .£19,795 Under the headifig, "forfeitures, .and ' surrenders" he-could; give the following ■ information:— ■ • 1909. 1910. - Ordinary forfeitures, ordin- - .-..ary Crown lands 118 / 227 Surrenders' ■ • . 63 75 . .'land for settlement lands .forfeitures 32 42 - -Surrenders ■■ '12 ,19 Total forfeitures under all , tenures 165 303 Total surrenders, ditto ... 94 '. 121 ; Other. figures quoted by - Mr. Massey " wefc ~" , 1909. 1910. Holdings taken up, ordin- . . ary Crown lands '1,702 • I,GSG Land for settlement landsrenewable lease ' : 228 > 274 •Expenditure under Land for " Settlements Act '......,£372,245 ;£279,238 There was th« straight issue; and it proved that Ministers, especially ' the

Minister for Lands, had not been sufficiently energetic. , In- spite of increased population,- and' a greater demand for land, there was a falling off in the lands settled. ■ > Deluge of Complaints. Since the commencement of the session ho had received quite a deluge of letters from settlers' in the • backblocks, ■ complaining of their treatment at the hands of the Government. A settler 'in . the King Country had written that" in regard to, the opening of the latest blocks a successful settler did' not know for some weeks after the ballot what Was his tenure. He -added that the' Native land policy alone would hang the Government. --(Oh's.)—The settlers had been told the Opposition were in favour !of reaggregution and the payment of cash for freehold,' but that was all nonsense. They: favoured closer settlement and a policy of letting a man.acquire the freehold.if he wished to. , Proceeding to the financial sido of 'the Budget, he aslwd why, 'if the state of,affairs was so rosy, did the Government- not' propose to reduce the extra taxation that thoy had,recently imposed upon the people of the Dominion. At this stago ■ there, were frequent interruptions from Mr. Ell, the Senior Government Whip, till at length the Speaker 'arose and. administered to " him' a.dignified rebuke.. , "If," he said, "the hon. gentleman does-not restrain himself it''will be my-duty'tomintcrfere jn. 'a very severe way'."- Mr. Ell then subsided. ...... Maintenance of Schools.. : Mr,. Massey . continued that one point required special 1 consideration, and • that was. . the : maintenance. by the Government... of the : education vote. The Government were apparently placm" the m'aintoriancd ,of schools morv 'upon .the. local bodies, or in other words,upon tho ratepayers..:, The Minister for' Education, however;, was. one'" of tHose who believed in putting all tho taxation ho!could upon tho land, and since ho had becomo a member of tho Ministry ho had been' v exceedingly successful in that respcct. Tho peoplo who owned the land, however, knew that they wero already paying a great deal -towards hospitals and charitable aid, and they did not want to bo placed ill the same position as regards'schools!' He! felt sure - that the "country would- not. .allow-'. either the Minister or ,tho ,Government-^interfere-with tho main ' principles >of' tho Education 'Act. ■ . . Question of . Sinking' Funds- . the subject - of sinking , funds,', he said, to .tho theory -there .-' could be .no objection,,-but; there was no guarantee that in'years'. to come they would, not be used by somo Treasurer who might h(L,vo difficulty,jn making ends meet.' That was what had happened in tho past, and no doubt 1 it would happen in 'the future! Ho suggested, that itwould bo much. better ; if the Prime Minister had confined his scheme to loans that were not'reproductive.'. The. present proposals were ■' to last! 75 years, but he did riot think they would last a quarter of that time. . Ho, mentioned two instances in which-sinking funds had been seized. Ho referred to'the 'seizure of tho sinking fund in 1893, in connection with the old Imperial-guaranteed loan of ,£500,000. In connection with- that loan a sinking fund of Jj2oo,0 v OO had accumulated, and tho-Treasurer, was so anxious to get a hold of it that' he agreed to givo for every ,£IOO of debentures and, lie believed, .5 per cent, expenses. . Thus the collaring, of, those -funds increased the debt of tho colony, by',£llo,ooo, without securing anything in tho'way'of assets. Again'in 1895 the focal' bodies' sinking fund was taken, arid there were other instances! that could .bo .named.; The same thing would no doubt happen in the future. Taper Off Borrowing! ■•Mr.-.Massey 'said he'would like tho Prime Minister to say that ho would taper off the borrowing. He would like him to say that within seven or eight or ten years'it would' not be necessary to borrow at all or to-borrow very',little. There -was unfortunately- no indication of that. .'Last,year the country borrowed threo. and a half millions, 'and the year before .our and a half millions, an average of four millions for .each of tho two years. On the contrary the Government seemed to bo looking- for new. excuses for borrowing. It was -proposed to borrow half a million-for the development of .water I power! 1 He (Mr.. Massey) was informed that there was private capital ready to develop water power, and under these circumstances it was inadvisable to borrow. . '.'■■■ The Real Surplus. The Prime Minister said there was. a surplus for the year, of .£432,000. It had been the custom in past pears - to transfer the greater part of 'the surplus to the Public Works Fund, but last year the usual custom was departed from, and fiom this ' supposed, balance had to be deducted which' was carried forward from the previous year. Tho surplus, therefore, was really only .£248,000. He thought that was a very satisfactory surplus; and ha was. not going to quibble about it. He must point out, however, at what rato the indebtedness was being increased! No private company would allow its accounts to be presented as tho accounts of the nation wero presented. Retrenchment. ' ' Touching on tho retrenchment scheme, Mr. Massey said tho Financial Statement informed the country that ,£300,000 hail been saved. The ■ expenditure under tho annual appropriations last year' was' less by .£93,970 than the expenditure for tho previous year, but what about tho permanent appropriations? The permanent appropriations were as follow:— ,' ' £ 1908-09 3,210,030 ! .1909-10 : ..... 3,51.1,109 ; An increaso of £304,379 last year 1 Taki ing tho annual, appropriations alcng with

the permanent appropriations there was, instead of a saving of ;£300,0f1.0, an- increased expenditure of *£205,409. .Or, .if they considered the so-called saving of •.£98,970 on (ho annual appropriations, thcro were always sufficient non-recurrini; items from tho previous'year.-..that would make up that amount. Grass seed for settlers, the large Government vote for the general election* and the, printing-of the Consolidated Statutes were such nonrecurring items.

Expenditure Going up by Leaps and Bounds. ,

i The expenditure was going up by leaps and. bounds.. During tho hist four years —the period of the present regime—it-had increased by ■£1,868,583.''' ,Bc did not believe the ' Government had ever intended to retrench or had the. slightest idea" of saying the taxpayers' inoney. There had been a .sort of financial stringency,-.and they felt it necessary to shorten' sail. The 'stringency had passed, and they: were now about to launch out again;, Soine of the items jii the Estimates showed that' they were .returning, t'o . their policy, of, extravagance., If the, Prime Minister meant to make 1 his defence scheme unpopular he .was going the right 'way about. it; The expenditure was too 'high, and' the burden on the shoulders of the people much too heavy. "When, the Prime Minister proposed to divide tho public, debt into two schedules, . putting sixty-two millions into one und twelve"millions in the other, the best that could bo-said for it was that the sixty-two millions- were a debt and the twelve millions a liability, and he.did not see much difference between- the two -in that connection. When . tiie ''Prime Minister wished to'infer that .tM twelve millions were outside tilt scope ol the national debt he was asking', too much.- i He regretted that ,the Prime Minister'had'not yet laid before Parliament the report of the new State, Guaranteed Advances Department, which by" law should be presented within fourteen days of the commencement of the cession. .. ' Local Bodies' Loans. With ' regard. to the - new. arrangement for extending the term to local bodies, with a view of lightening their payments, ho asked whether, ;it" the old Act had.not bcen~interfered/with!. it would have been necessary to / increase the term. The Prime Minister 'knew that it would not ltavo been necessary, and that the local bodies were paying much more now for their loans than they were two years ago. They'were paying ,£4 17s fid per rent. _and - they would have been asked far more had tlie Treasurer not been able to borrow from the Post Office ■at a low, rate of' interest. The Post Office, however, might run dry, and local bodies might be asked /to pay another half per cent., or >£5. 7s Cd per cent., which would be prohibitive:. He went on to contend thdt the length of the terra, of ■ the. loan was mado too long. No loan should be for a. greater term than' the' likely • duration 1 of the undertak-. ing. . ' v ' ,

' Roads and Bridges- Votes, ' 'In conclusion'he wished to refer to; tlie roads and bridges ; votes. • In- 1009 ,£636,000. was, voted,ill , 1910 only ,£477,000. The expenditure in 1909 was X' 169,000, but in 1910 it was; .only / 4385,000.-v\yiiy? -In 1909 there was a general 'election, lvhen it was necessary, to. Sweeten stituents. . Last. year there- was no general election, and the Government showed no anxiety for the . welfare of the people of the out-districts'. This was* a state of affairs which was not .icreditable .to tho Government, to the 'people, or to Parliament. ' PRIME MINISTER REPLIES. PROGRESS OF LAND SETTLEMENT. PROPOSED 'LEGISLATiON. The I-Jrime Minister said that he, Jiad no option but to-accept the amendment as ono of- want of confidence in the Government, and ho.accepted it- as such accordingly.. • It would appear that tho mountain had been in labour arid had brought forth a mouse.' How, did Jlr. Massey know that the land of the Government 'this year , were not better, than, those, submitted last session? If Jlr. Mfissey's .''laud proposals were adopted, it would rob s the, country of a great' deal ' of' money. As. a ' matter of fact, the present Administration and its predecessor had been anything. but inactive during" their term's of office. Tho number of people settled under permanent tenures during Mr.' Seddon's term of 0ffice,,,1892-1906,' was .'.'26,734,,; tho total area being 0,231,939 acres, whilst during his term, 1906-1910,• the number was 6808, and . tho .total area' 2,289,952, making a grand total of settlers "• 33,512, qnd the total. area settled • 8,523,991 acres/ The settlement in question represented placing . 130,000. persons on tho land. During Mr. Seddon's office the amount paid for land for settlement was .£4,-108,394, and under bis term jfii,4s-4,152, making a total in round figures of six millions so paid; the number of tenants.46.32,' and the area settled 1,125,145 acres. As regards Nativt) 'lands there were 73 surveyors, 173 chainmeii,. and other; workers were engaged on such lands. ' By private aliena-' tion, 1,191,251)' acres had been dealt with; tho Native Land Courts had dealt with 572,270 acres; whilst, in addition, tyiero were 53,530 acres to be taken into consideration. Was that. not-an enormous area? There,were 715,154-acres'already surveyed and roaded, and otherwise made available for settlement. .. J '' -"Native Land.' 11l ten years, 3,200,000 acres of, Nativu land had-therefore been dealt with.'There had never been anything liko it in, tho history of this country before. It had to be, remembered, in this connection that tho' Opposition 'opposed the land for settlement policy. Mr. llass«y: No, no. • , Sir Joseph stated that Mr. Massey had' inferred that rates could not bo col-, lectcd in connection, with Native lands. There was power to collect rates, on certain, Native lands,-and legislation would be. brought down this .'session to get over tho difficulty in -regard to .collecting' the rates. He knew that- there: haU'not been so much-settlement this year as was the caso last year. But! why?- Tho Govern-, ment would ask Parliament ■ to; legislate in tho- direction' of getting over a difficulty—tho fact .that land-owners had jumped up their values' to sitch a price that no Government, could afford to pur-chaso-their properties. . - Mr.'Massey:'This lias come about under your own Act. -v. . , Sir-Joseph: Tho Act did not tell them to do it. ' ' ... .

Resuming, Sir Joseph said- that' no owner ' was justified 'in'.-.adding.' .£5 or maybe .filO to the value of each, acre' of their properties and .then asking; the' Government to purchase it. Mr. Massey: I • told you what would happen when you ,passed the Act in question. ; ■ . i . •' ; Sir Joseph,, proceeding,-said that not a single estate had been offered to the. Government at anything like its fair value. The Government'was considering bringing down a system under - which there could be compulsion on people' with, large es : tates to allow their land to/be leased to those who wanted to. use it with'right of option of conversion into the freehold. - - Local Bodies' Loans, The Opposition had_ opposed the com-* pulsory system of acquiring.large estates, and also the obtaining money, which had been necessary to the success of the land system. Alore moniy had been lent in one year under the State Guaranteed Advances department than in four previous years, in largo and small' sums.

Mr. Massoy:. You. put up t.lio price of money to the' county councils, and you can't ge't away from it.. . . ' The Prime Minister read a letter from the- Borough Council expressing satisfaction at the Department's conduct of its' drainage loan. They had saved ,JC2C,OOO: by going to. the ..Depart:' ment. ' Mr. Massey: Oh, nonsense. The Prime Minister said that another body had saved AGOOO under tho new system, and a third would have saved'<£looo a year for thirty years. Retrenchment, in Departments. In answer to ao statement that the Government had never -intended to retrench, the Prime Minister read figures to show the savings effected in tho separate Departments, as furnished, lie said, by tho Departments themselves.-'■ The. principal amounts werfe as follow: l«'ire Insurance Department, .£11)31; Marine, ,£9968; Post nd Telegraph, '.£9973; Old Age Pensic .s, <£57-11; Agricultural, .*B3-1.995; Eduoation, j ' Public

Works, i' 25,000; Railways, JC176,000, and the total amount saved was stated at i»H,203. .• ■ ,

Sir Joseph stated that the period covered was from when' he gave tho instructions for retrenchment to the end of the last financial year.

Mr. Herdiiian: That is eighteen months. Sir Joseph Ward:,l suppose it is.'Mr. Henlma'n: Hoiv can ve check your figures when you do not give us • the dates? ' . . , ■

The Prime' Minister: .Tou did not'ask for the dates. You'said before that tliere wns no retrenchment. . •

■ Sir . Joseph Ward said the only .thing misleading in ■the case of Te'Kuiti was a. mistake in regard to 500 acres of ii reserve; Someone goti portion of this without the description of the tenure- being as full as for the other 40,000 acres taken, up. As to forfeitures, he. quoted figures to show that there, had been comparatively few under, tliree systems' of tenure. ' He quoted ; also a speech delivered by the Leader of the Opposition 111 which the latter said he hail, never

approved of' the compulsory 'taking of land for 'settlement. Mow" lio chargcd the Government ' ivith . not acquiring enough laud, yet he had . opposed the primary, clause in the Act necessary to' give effect .to tho settlement system.',

Sinking, Funds, . As to his criticism! on ,the subject of sinking funds being annexed, Sir Joseph, said Mr. ITassey was inaccurate in -stating" that the transaction with-the .ioOO.OOD Imperial-guaranteed' ' debentures took place in 1892,-ihi-Mr. Balance's' time, not in 1893. .The interest on the old loan was 4 per cent.,'and the new-loon'was obtained 'at- ,8J per cent, so . .that there was a saving of oi\c-l\aH per tent, until the maturity of".the. loan. •

Mr. Masses; It was the worst, piece oi finance this country ever'saw. ... Sir Joseph Ward: That is what yon say, but 1 don't,, believe you know anything about' it, because- you were' not here. .', / ■ - '. V ■ Mr.'Masser:Vl-''took part; in. the discussion -in 1903. .•'''■' ■'■'~.

.Sir Joseph 'AVard: But -you'' were not hero when it was-discussed in 1902: 'You will fii\d columns'about it. : As' to the SinkingFurid proposals, Sir Joseph added that lie' would explain them fully when the .Bill cams before the House. They could not find any other country in the world that had, ever., proposed a system) of the kind, .safeguarded as 'this one was. 1 ■■ : ' ' ' " • ' ■ Mr. Fras^r:'HoV .. . Sir Joseph Ward: I hear the member for Wakatipu "Ho, ho-iug." (Laughter.) I ask him to find some.other countries, that have adopted'.such' a systom. Mr. I'raser: 1 don't think any other country-in the world would produce.such a thing. (LaugliterO ..... Sir Joseph Ward: 1 challenge him that ho cannot produce a better. He: can go on to the Day of Judgment ,and he can't do it. If ho brings down a proposal, I'll undertake to.do the "Ho! ho!"'and knock him kite-high when : he submits his proposals-, to the House—or try' to. Mr. Fraser: Yes,', "try. to f '!' , :, . •

Borrowing and, Requests for Money.■ It was almost' impossible lo describe Mr. Massey's references to the borrowing policy, in view of. the; fact:that hcjhad voted for every loan.snd that if ho or tho Opposition had, had their way, tho loans would have beon. doubled and trebled. •

Sir. 'Wilford-.'And Auckland would'have got the 'lot. ■ ■■-.-. '-'. . ; •

Tho Prime-Minister, continuing,'.-re-ferred to Mr. Allen's) ami Mr.'Scott's, representations in regard to tho'LawrenceRoxburgh railway. -The Leader of thr< Opposition then stood on one side of iv mountain, and said ,■ he ■ believed in "a railway being carried to •a, payable point. !■'...''

Mr. Massey: When was that? ■ ' The Primo Minister: .When you wore in Otago. • The statement was made publicly. Continuing, Sir Joseph Ward said, that Mr. Massey never expressed liimsalf iti favour of .'compleMng. tho'.. Roxburgh. railway, but when ho was in tho neighbourhood of 1 that railway, with two of his Opposition colleagues, he said thai •ho believed in its.boing carried to'a pay"ablo point, and'so'lcft the- impression that ho was ill favour of its completion. .Mr. "Massey.: You asked tlio .House to voto .£20,000 for it. ..'.'.

■ Tho Prime. Minister.-said that if M). Massey had been true to his professions! of economy, he would havo opposed tho line. The Opposition referred -to tilt "self-reliant policy" of Mr. Ballance'a time,'' hut at that, lime there was' no Advances-to Settlers Department, foi which borrowed money -wan required, nc purchases of land , for settlement; comparatively, little .acquisition of Native, land for settlement, and no such, thing as tho completion of the North Island Main Trunk; railway,' which had- added . enor"mously. to the public expenditure. A member,: It was going on all the timfl. Not-a Single Weakness.'* Tho.'Prime Minister continued that Ml.' Massey had not put his linger on u singlo weakness from beginning td end of tho Financial Statement. He wanted railways in his own district, and they could not bo made without money.- What was tho usi of'any of tlieni, , when: the, time had not coroo ..to,; stop ..railway construction, and they ..could only'1)0 - made by borrowed' money,' creating tho impression that thi'.y were over-borrowing, when in the .next breath members on. both sides were approaching the. Government in' tho interest of their > constituencies and, the country, , asking,- that more borrowed money should be obtained for carrying out 'works in'their district? Sir, Joseph Ward also defended the position of ■ the • surplus, and Hho bringing forward of last year's balance,:'which, he said, could not have been otherwise'treated. Tho year 1908-9 was a bad one .for revenue, and provision was made for, tho '-whole of the' money expended on,' public works with.out relying on one bonny being ' transferred from revenue to. the Public Works Fund. There was. no revenue to transfer ■to that'fund. 'This matter .had nothing whatever to do with, the bringing forward of the balance, from last year., . •; ■ Mr. Masseylt .is you .who ' are confusing things now. 1 Why the, Amendment Was Moved.* ' Regarding the complaint' as to extra taxation, Sir Joseph said • that no., unnecessary- burden-' had been placed on tho taxpayers. There : was -no ' proposal to interfere .with'; the system' of . 'education. The. Government' was not going to tako ;away any powers from education boards, hilt rather 1 to'increase their powers. In a few days'the. Local Government Bill, which .embraced these proposals, would be brought down. , As to the scheduling of the public debt, no ono could'come to tho conclusion that any portion of it was not interest-earning: Tho country - had been informed .that there would be land proposals, this- session:' By moving his amendment Mr.; Malssey assumed that,lie. might-induco some members to vote'with him on what ,was purely a party motion. Tho present Government 1 had carried out a vigorous' land, railway, and . public works policy, ''and. the v financial position of ..the Dominion was - strong. Still' Mr. Massey'decried everything,that the Government had done. Though there was much'still, .to N be done in- regard to Native lands,' there had undoubtedly during tho- past 'few years been much reinvigoration and a very forward policy. By way' of personal explanation, Mr. Massey quoted' Hansard to show that ho was the'first memberto put tho advances to-workers scheme in concrete form. : OTHER SPEECHES. , MR. J. ALIENS VIEWS. LAND QUESTION AND RETRENCH- ,' MKNT. Mr. .Tames Allen' (Bruce) asked if the Primo Minister had said a word as lo the principle of tho, Government with refcroiico .to land tenure. How could the Prime l .Minister- load such a . Ministry which included freeholders, leaseholders, and a single taxer:' It . was 'a difficult question for Sir Joseph, who appeared lo be shirking'it. : .Tlie Leader of the Opposition had had-to give the .Government a lead on a number of matters this- sessioii.l This year .the'-Government-'would 1)0 compelled to reveal its laud policy. If-Mr. Fowlds :liad his way ho would put such a tax on land that it'would have no value cxcept- its lease value. . Sir Joseph: That, is not our proposal Mr. Allen (resuming) said he believed it was a fact tliat.the last Land Bill ivas forced upon Mr. M'Nab, who was sacriliced by his own party. Sir Joseph: That is not a fact. Continuing his remarks, Mr. Allen said that'settlers'who wauled to take up land ■on the cash or the optional systems had

been discouraged. What they wero being tempted to take up was land on renewable lease. Settlers did not know.that in taking up Crown land under that system lliov were depriving themselves of the option of the freehold. Questions Unanswered. He would like to know the opinion of the Prime Minister on the optional sys--tem. "\Vas ho against it as it existed? Did he favour the extension of tho system to tho lands for Settlement lands? What was his position in regard to Mr. Massey's proposal to give tenants of lease-in-pcrpetuitv lands the option of the freehold? . The Prime Minister hadstated that the Opposition was opposed to lands, fpr settlement, which .was untrue. It was true that the Opposition did not approve of some of the proposals in tho measure, which had since.turned out unsatisfactory. Now the' Government complained that owners had increased the value of their properties. But was it not a fact that the Government had done away with the Compensation Court ? It had also given the owner the power to have his valuation raised. There should be a fund into which money from tho sale of Land for Settlement land should be placed so that other properties might, be bought and subdivided. Did the Government, approve the scheme? What the Opposition wanted to know -was what-".tho country thought of it: Regarding' the Native, lands, he would ask if the Government's policy during the past twenty years had been favourable to expeditious settlement. There were, pillions of such lauds- still idle,- and thousands of people were crying out for farms;- Apparently the only thing which would impress the Government was an appeal to the electors on the question.. By the repeal of the former law relating to Joans to local bodies the smaller local .bodies 'in particular had suffered.... 'V . . Local Bodies' Loans and Retrenchment. The Premier had statei'time'and again that money was being lent -to local 'bodies at 31 per cent., never mentioning anything about tho additional, one per cent..., for. sinking fuiicl and tho cost of commission on the loan. ' Mr. Massey: They now. pay .£4 17s. -Gd. as against'JS3 10s. , Sir. Allen went on to say that the Opposition had opposed the ■ repeal of the previous lending scheme. It was his opin.- . ion that still "setter terms, than had ever been offered should be given tho smaller •local bodies. . ■ As regards retrenchment, lie would like tho'Government toiay details of its-schemo before Parliament. it did so it ;>V6uld'be- found t-hj-t the saving had been-not more than. .£IOO,OOO. Ho would like to see, for instance,, the details in ■ regard' to .the alleged, saving of ,£17G,000 in the railways. Did Mr. IVtlds believe that he had savetl . ,£-15,000 in bis Department? Tho accounts showed that the decrease in'the Departmental expenditure iras-<£211,000, but the increases total- ■ led JiHO,OOO, making a not decrease of .£98,000. He could not see how ' there hid been sucli a-.big saving in the railways, for they had cost .£47,000 more than during tli© previous year. The decrease in regard to education was impossible, in view of the fact that the Department cost ,£l4,ooo'.more than during the previous year, without .taking into account.-the, amount spent on education out of endowment moneys. .He see that there might -be a decrease owing to nonrecurring items. The fact was that tho Government had to do something, for the expenditure on Departments'had been in : creasing rapidly. Members would ' re'member .'liuw many, new Departments had been created,' and why had these been created?—for patronage. ; The Government and Sinking Funds. It was useless.for the, Premier to say 'that there- were not. dangers attached to any sinking fund scliethc. No" Ministry had seized' so -much of sinking- funds as the present, , continuous . Ministry. He recollected'ivlion Sir Joseph' stated that one million was ample to borrow for public works,, but in lato years the amouut borrowed- for those purposes was. very much higher. The. cost of railway construction htul. gone up from £(000 to jejl.fiOO or ,C 12,000. , - '' . ■ Sir Joseph: That is due to heavier' traction. ' ' -Mr. Allen declared - that ; lighter lines Would, have . done. The- Government were going to hand over, the money.'for building, schools .to local bodies./If tho Government-was going to destroy t-hc educational system he had no confidence in the Government. ' Then,- again, -lio had no confidence in them in regard to their land - policytheir system of administration ;. and ill other directions. Members would remember the speech of the chairman of .the Bank, of New Zealand, in which ho referred to the-spirit-of want of confidence' in ./the community. _ .

Hon. ; K. .M'Kenzie: Shares have since gone up JH. ' Resuming, Mr. Allen said that;the administration and some of/the-legislation of the present Government had tended to frighten away capital. 'He believed that tho Government. had.'to a large extent led'this country astray. The Premier, .for instance, .had'led'the'Governmnet"into the superannuation schemes, which proved to ho unsound. ' The: other parts of Sir Joseph's finances , were: of a similar nature. Then,' again, there had not been moneys to meet liabilities in the Public Works Fund at-, the end of each'year.'

The Prime Minister contended, that His railways superannuation scheme ' was sound till it was altered by the House. With regard to the education superannuation scheme, Jlr. Allen Jind recommended lesser contributions., •;■.■'

Mr. Allen said ho had riot misrepresented the Prime' Minister in any particular.

HON.. G. FOWLDS'S SPEECH

.NEXT .CHANGE OF' GOVERNMENT- ' .The Hon., G. Fowlds, '/Minister ; for Education, said it would be interred from Mr. Allen's speech that, the- country Has rapidly rushing to destruction, and that nothing could save it but the advent of the Opposition to office. When the' Government was replaced, it would bo.by a moro'Radical'Government than the present—a. Government that would stake:its very .existenw to carry out some of the Radical reforms to which the Opposition was opposed.. There was not the slightest chance of the Government being given over' to ' the ' Jeremiahs and'. Tammany bosses.of the Opposition.' ';■'-.' "•Mi. MasseyusXed il this was'a'slatcliient which should be allowed. ~ '.

Tile Speaker' ruled that the statement should be withdrawn.'

• jlr. I'Wlds.jii withdrawing the'expressioh, said ho. had used'it., because heresented' very strongly the employment of tile, word '"ammauyism.by the' Leader of the Opposition-iu reference ■ .to the Government.'ln speaking of tho "sacrifice" of Mr. M'Nab, did Mr'. Allen mean that tho Government'had done something to assist his defeat? He contended that the defeat of Mr.'.ll'Nab'was due to the misrepresentations • of the' Opposition' and their friends, and there was not a member of the Ministry but regretted that defeat. '','•' •

Mr. Poole: It wants him now

Continuing, Mr, Folds'replied tp .Mr. Allen's criticism |of the heterogeneous opinions of the Ministry on: the laud question. He urged that there was not the slightest incongruity between a single-, taxer and a' freeholder operating to-. gether, .uid that a ■ single-taxer must have a system'of freehold in order to'carry out his ideas. But'were the Opposition so single-minded that they.would pull 1 together any bc-tter? . Mr. Massey had. objected to a portion of Lord Kitchener's report; but a collenguo of his had,offered ito go bn tho platform to support the action of the Prime Minister in regard to it. Mr Jlassoy had opposed the method of the Dreadnought .offer, but ouo of his colleagues had approved both the manner and time of tho gift. The Government had presented sufficiently united front: to leave the Opposition still ill a small minority both in the House and' in the country. '. Farmers and the Single Tax. The small farmers in this country, it his single tax theory was adopted, would pay much less in taxation than under tile present, system'. Jlv. Masse.v:- I ask the ILon. T. llaikenzio what'ho thinks of that. .. 1 Mr. Fowlds Haiti ho made thin statement because it was' represented that the single tasc-i- was an enemy of tho small, settler; Continuing, tho Minister, stated that the Government had moved the Opposition tremendously,' even-since the. time lie came into tho House, .and as for their views when Mr. Ballance was in power, the Opposition of to-day refused to recognise them. ■ When tho Jjimd for. Settlement Bill .was before the.

Ifouso in-1894 Mr.".Allen and other Opposition members wero anxious to allow each member of a family 300(1 acres of first-class land, GOOD ncros of second(cl:i.ss, and . acres of pastoral land. That, vns their idea of closer settlement. The I'rimo .Minister had clearly stated that, it ,was-'<iuite impossible for him in a short reply to Mr. Massey to lay down the principles of a Land Bill. When the 'Bill was .''brought (town the intentions of tho Government would be fully explained. • - The Big Landowners. Mr. Vowlds went on to suggest that the Opposition had been largely "dropped" by' the big landowners, to the detriment of tho party's funds* in connection with the graduated' land ' tax, and that this might be the reason-' why thoy were now. urging progressive reforms. Even' the small local bodies were in a better' position under tho new lending.AcMn that 'hey could get their wants supplied within a year,, instead of having to wait two or three years for loans. ' The,, monijy : was' lent at a low rate of'interest, and. the. security of tho State was behind tho Department. Anyono could, see that it would bo a wrong , thing to .publish (.ho names of Civil Servants : who had been retrenched. .It was marvellous to find gentlemen like Mr. . Massey and ,'Mr. Allen using the 'arguments they had done in.. regard to the annual and permanent appropriations. If no retrenchment had taken place in tlie . Education Department,' .the . normal increase that had taken place in the amount for for teachers—partly caused by the increase under the-Act of J9OB ana partlj; by the increase in tlie attendance of children, ( and in other natural formswould have made the increase in the expenditure of • the . Education Department as compared 'with-last year JE105,000. Certain retrenchments were made, which every 'member of the Opposition hail condemned, with the result that the in'«:ase 'for; the year was only about £56,000.' If. it had not been .for the revenue from endowments the increase would have .been ,£63,000.' It was- then said that" 110 retrenchment had taken place, so:-that, all the Opposition's , criticism with. regard-, to reduction, of. capitations and votes i must have been moonshine. The position; was the same in regard to other Departments. During . the years quoted in which public expenditure had increased,- the country, had doubled its contribution' to the Navy, and increased its expenditure-on teachers' salaries and the staffing of schools hy about .£75,000. ■ i , , Education.,

i Every session members of the House were complaining "of. the Education Boards,' ■ and asking Ministers why the Government did not do tilings itself. Ho was not in favour of,, centralisation, and .the ■ new'.-proposals 'of: the Government 'were in r tlic direction of, decentralisation. They had'not got the proposals - of 'the Government before thorn in regard to doing away : with education boards, but it had been 'frequently 'urged that education boards should be on an ■ elective basis. ..'Under the Government's scheme the. educational committees would be appointed, in that way, which would bring them moro into touch with the public. Ho . knew education' boards at present which.. were 'electioneering agents for the Opposition.' ' ..-■," Mr. Massey: Is that why., you. are bringing down your proposal? Mr.. Fowlds:'That is-.one of the reasons. .'The.Government stood for what Vas straight and. honest in administration. "-"; .' ' v : .. . • , Mr. Massey; sai'd that .the term "Ta'ni-manyism",'had-been used by him in c. speech at Taumarunui with ■ reference to the./division,'.on. Mr. Wright's • motion, arising out .of the boycott .of The' Dominion,■'• that public moneys should be spent in the public interest, and not for tho benefit of the party. If that division was not an instance of Tammany io. did not know what.'was. .' ,

: The :debate was adjoilnied; till 2.30 p.ni' to-day, and tho House rose at 0.30 a.m.