PARLIAMENT IN SESSION.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 876, 23 July 1910, Page 3

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION.

. A KEEN-DEBATE. . CIVIL SERVICE CONTROL. MOTION BY MR. HERDMAN REJECTED. NATIONAL ENDOWMENTS , DISCUSSED. SETTLEMENT AND TENURE. The only work done by tho (Legislative Council, yesterday was the passing of the Imprest Supply Bill'on its' receipt from the House. T.he . Council then adjourned till Wednesday week. In the House there'was a short debate bearing upon Government grants for educational purposes in the afternoon. Subsequently an Imprest Supply Bill for £715,000' was brought down, and upon the motion to go into Committee of Supply Mr. Herdman moved an amendment affirming , the desirability of the setting up of a Public Service Board, but after an interesting debate his suggestion was rejected. Whilst vhe Bill was being put through its further stages an important discussion with reference to the National Endowments took place, with tho result that it.did not get through the House until 0.30 o'clock this ' morning. THE COUNCIL. The Legislative Council met at, 2.30 p.m. yesterday, ■ and immediately adjourned'till 11 p.m. to receive the Imprest Supply Bill from the House. At 11 p.m. the Bill was not ready, and the Council met again at 1.40 a.m. to-day, when.the Bill was put through 'air its. stages and passed. . The Council then adjourned till Wednesday week. . .

THE HOUSE.

CRANTS FOR EDUCATION. PRESENT SYSTEM "ROTTEN,". SAYS MR. FOWLDS. Some important comments on the present system of making grants to education boards were made in the House yesterday afternoon when, upon the presentation of the report, of the recent conference on education, Sir. T. E. Taylor alleged failure- on the part of the Government to give sufficient grants towards the' Technical School at Christenurch. He was satisfied (ho said) that a great deal of money now spent on primary , education 'would have to be .diverted to the technical side. Employers could, not at present give the young people .sufficient training. " . .'.:' ". . ■ • . . Mr. RUSSELL asked if it were competent upon the presentation of a paper to discuss such a large question. The SPEAKER ruled that the debate must be confined to the subject matter of. the paper. Mr. TAYLOR said the Technical School in Christchurch was overcrowded, and had it been;known that the Education Department was going to refuse supplies a very emphatic protest, would uave gone.up from the inspectors' Conference. Apprenticeship had now practically., disappeared from the itrades, so it was. all the more necessary to maintain their technical schools in- a thoroughly sound position. In Wellington the same matter had cropped up. Indeed, ■ all ! the' technical schools were rcquiripg larger grants for the pressing necessity of their increasing work. The cost should not bo allowed to fall on localities, but should be paid from the Consolidated Fund. The recent correspondence between the Minister and ' the Christchurch authorities revealed a very unsatisfactory, line of policy on the part of the Government. Mr.' J. C: THOMSON (Wallace) wae speaking, when Sir Joseph Ward rose to a point of order. Could members debate the whole education question on the presentation of a paper? The SPEAKER, said-they could.discuss the contents of the paper. Mr. Thomson said no .figures had been quoted to show that' the Christchurch sohool was overcrowded in regard to. carpentering and other trades. It was probably overcrowded in regard to shorthand and typewriting, and, if so, these subjects should 'be shifted to the ordinary schools.' Mr. J. P. LUKE (Wellington Suburbs) said Mr. Taylor's remarks were particularly pertinent i. to •. AVellington. The Wellington school had 1100 students, and was overcrowded. He was surprised at Mr. Thomson's remarks. Typewriting and shorthand were the foundations of the commercial system. Sir Joseph WARD said if they were going to discuss papers at such length he would lay all the papers for each week on the table on private members' day, otherwise the business could not be proceeded with. There was very important business waiting the attention of tho House. ' . • The Hon. G. FOWLDS (Minister for Education) said that tho most arrant humbug was talked on this question. The technical school at Christchurch had had ,in direct grants over £14,000 besides subsidies. When a board, asked for further grants, wae it not competent for the Government to say that it had gone far enough to meet all legitimate claims? If the work wore essential they could get a subsidy of £ for £. In this case, any further grant would be at the expense of primary education. Hβ'was against - the reduction in this way of the money for primary education. (Hear; hears.) The claim put forward was in the circumstances extravagant. Mr. T. E. Taylor': The only limit to tho expenditure should be the needs 'of tho district. ■ Mr. Fowlds went on.to say that tho whole system of making grants as at present was rotten.to the core. Tho .sooner tho control of such expenditure was placed in some board who had somo responsibility in connection with its collection tho better. Mr. Taylor: A public service board. Mr.. Fowlds:. What an idea—to put into tho hands of a public scrvico board tho expenditure* of public monoys. Mr. Hordman: It is done in England. Mr. Fowlds: But that does not say that it should be dono in New Zealand. Cabinet, for instance, is a much better body with which, to vest such powers than a public sorvico board. It would bo better still, however, to transfer tho control to a board' representative of tho ratepayers, who would have provided at least somo portion of tho moneys. We have a largo expenditure which is not being economically dono at tho present time. It will never be. remedied until those who have some responsibility in tho collection of tho moneys have control of the expenditure.

THE PUBLIC SERVICE. ■aasodoud iouinoo jo auvoa INEFFICIENCY AND MISMANAGEMENT ALLEGED. Upon the" introduction of an Imprest Supply Bill, Mr. HEEDIIAN (Wellington North) moved \an amendment to the motion to go into. Committee of Supply, as follows: — "That all the words after 'that - be struck out with a view of inserting tlie following words, viz.:— 'Inasmuch as the Prime Minister's statement made in April, 1909, that ho could reduce Departmental ex- ■ penditure by £250,000 for a year without impairing the efficiency of the Public Service is an unequivocal confession of administrative ' inefficiency and mismanagement and of inexcusable ' waste of public money, this House is of opinion that the time has arrived for placing the management of the Public Service of Now Zealand under the management of a Public Service Board. , " Before Mr. Herdman had concluded the reading of his amendment, the Prime Minister rose to a point of order. Mr. Herdman, he said, was not entitled to move such a motion. After a discussion, tie Prime Minister's objection was dismissed by the Speaker, who held that the amendment, could bo moved. Speaking to his amendment, Mr. Herdman stated that he had no intention of trying to intercept Supply. It was only the 22nd of the month, and salaries had not to be paid until the end of the month. He did not need to excuse his action, seeing that it was only one of a few occasions which members had of bringing up such a matter. Since the Premier made his announcement of an intention to retrench in the Public Service no statement had been made to the House as to what had been done. . Departments Had Crown Enormously. It was difficult to get information, but they all knew that .large sums were continually being oxpeuded on the Departments, that the Departments had grown enormously, and that the expenditure had also grown inexplicably. He thought that twelve months after the inauguration of retrenchment the Government should well be able to give the public some information about tho changes made. •■ Information should not only be given as to those public servants who had been retrenched and turned, adrift, but also as to those who had since been taken on. Tho Housu should know on what plan, if any, retrenchment was carried out, and what were the salaries of men retrenched and' others taken on. Referring to the appointment of Mr. Dinnie, ex-Police Commissioner, to he chairman of a Maori Land Board, Mr. Herdman said that he knew Mr. Dinnie to be a man of. < very Irigh. character,, but he should think that his training and upbringing and past life did not lit. him for the new position.. Appointments of this kind suggested that they should be very suspicious of' the Government's retrenchment. Increasing Cost. The,increase in the annual appropriations for the upkeep of, the Stato Departments was shown, by the following figures:— it - 1906.,.., 4,252,232 1907 4,736,8115 1908 6,085,343 1909 5,575,483 Tho . gallop was. kept .up until . .that year, and in the appropriations for 'the i year ended March 31, 1910, there was a. drop to £5,476,513. It was, however, an astonishing fact that in 1908 it cost £1,300,000 more.to administer the Departments than it cost only three years before. That was "a proof of waste, oxtravaganco/ and inefficiency. But the, Prime Minister himself had said at .Upper Hutt that £250,00U a year was being- spent unnecessarily* on the Departments. The.Government was employing labour to that extent that was superfluous... .. House and Public Indifferent. • Yet the people of tho 001111117 listened to such a statement and did not turn a hair. They were completely indifferent as # to whether the Government wasted money or not, and he believed the House was also indifferent. It would be a good thin*; if instead of frittering away time in the discussion of comparatively unimportant Bills they could give half a session to the consideration of.the administration of the Stato Departments. His scheme of a Public Service Board would be called by some Undemocratic, but those responsible to the public soon became lax and careless.. In Australia, though thero was some' dissatisfaction in parts against the administration of the Civil Service Commissioners, there was no difference of opinion on the principle. In Sydney and Victoria thero was n« dissatisfaction with their administration. ' Labour Endorses the Principle. • .Mr. Herdman read from a speech recently delivered by Mr. Thomas, Post-master-General or tho Labour Administration in the Commonwealth, in, which he said that whilo ho did not believe in overy detail. of the Public Service Act, he was in thorough accord with tho principle, and ho hoped that the time would never come again when a man would get a position in the , service or promotion simply because he was the friend of a politician. Efficiency should always bo the test of .appointment and promotion. If other things were equal, seniority should, of course, count, but no man should have promotion simply because he had been longer in the service than any other officer. These, said Mr. Herdman, were the opinions of a man whose capacity would be held in high esteem by tho Labour members of Hie House. Mr. Herdman added that his scheme would not involve a reduction of salaries. Sir Joseph .Ward: Then what's tho good of it? Mr. Herdman: The good of it is this, that if a Public Service Board bad been in ■ office , there would never have been any need for tho recent' retrenchment. ,Tho scheme would not necessitate dismissals, but it would leave no room in the Public Servico for "wasters," and it wduld do away with the detestable system , of political patronage, lion had been appointed to the Public Service in tho past who were quite incompetent to fill'the positions given them. Many other Civil Servants wero not receiving emoluments in keeping with their services, and they would not got them until his principle-was adopted. He admitted that the'condition of things in tho Public Sorvico to-day was bettor than it was a few years ago, but Min 7 isters had not time to look after the officering of their Departments'and tho fixing of Departmental salaries. That should bo done by someone quite outside the Ministry. Commissioners and the Worker. Thero was no reason why tho Public Service Commissioners should be less approachable by tho working classes than word Ministers. In Australia there was no distinction drawn between the working men and other applicants for positions or promotion in the service. Tho~Prime- Minister now stated that he proposed to abandon the scheme of retrenchment. He gathered from that that ho intended to throw economy to the winds, and revert to the bad condition of things which prevailed two

or three years ago, when money was squandered recklessly, and the Departments were filled with men who were not required. Ho belioved that the Government was afraid to control the Departments in a business-like way. He believed that if thoro had been a Public Servico Board there would have been no trouble with the Income Tax or Valuation Departments and under that system the whole of tho civil servico would be managed upon juster lines. Mr. HARDY (Selwyn) seconded the amendment. THE INCREASES. Mr. POLAND (OMnemuri) complimented the.Government on carrying out their retrenchment scheme, and opposed the setting up of a Civil Service Board. He did not apprqvo of the action of tho Government in giving large increases to highly-paid servants and small increases to lower paid servants. Ho quoted from a letter received from a Labourite in the New South Wales Parliament, who alleged that there was a certain amount of political influence and secret society and club influence in connection with appointments under the Civil Service Board in New South Wales. Mr. HANAN (Inyercargill) said that in Victoria, where there was a Civil Service Board, the last three years had seen considerable retrenchments, reorganisation, and amalgamations in the service. Retrenchment in New Zealand had been due to a period of general depression, and in all concerns an overhaul was sometimes necessary. Again, somo of the new debts wero largely in the nature of experiments, and required a good deal of money to establish. The Government was now saving £300,000 a year by retrenchment. (Opposition laughter.) Mr. Massey: Surely you're not so innocent as that? (Laughter.) Sir Joseph Ward: It's true all the same. Mr. Hanan reviewed recent additions to Departmental expenditure with a view to showing their necessity. VERY UNSATISFACTORY. Mr. MALCOLM (Clutha) urged that the state of affairs that had existed for years past in the Civil Service was a very unsatisfactory one. Mr. Hanan's speech was no more than an attempt to cloud the issue, and mislead the public. He believed that nothing in the last ten years had so influenced the people of this country as the acknowledged extravagance of the Government in regard to the Civil Service, and tho impression was ¥ deepened by tho refusal of the 'Government to give- any details of tho saving which it claimed to have effected. The only reason for the Government's refusal appeared to him to be that it was afraid to give- the iuformation asked for. A sum of money was involved that must have a great bearing on the well-being of the country. PRIME MINISTER IN REPLY. The PRIME MINISTER said that if members read an article in The Dominion of July 18, they would como to the conclusion that the maker of the speech was tho author of the article. Mr. Massey: A very good article too. The Prime Minister said he had . seen a suggestion in the same paper that Mr. Herdman would make a very good Prime Minister. Mr. Massey: I have no doubt ho would. We have. 27 men here and each and every one of them would make a good Prime Minister. , (Laughter.) The Prime Minister added that apparently Mr Hordniaai made a speech in tho House ono day and wrote for his paper the next. Anyone would think from Mr. Herdman's speech that tho country was going to the dogs, until they heard the other side. For colossal misrepresentation—deliberate in his opinion—ho knew nothing to equal tho statements of Mr. Herdman in regard to the cost of Departments. If a man talked of tho expenditure for a given period without mentioning the receipts he must admit that no mortal man would be assisted to form a just ideaof the position. Mr. Buchanan (Wairarapa): He was supplying your omissions at Winton. (Laughter.) ■ Two Sides of the Account. Tho Prime Minister said that from 1906-1909 the revenue increased from £7,554,359 to £9,238,261, an increase of £1,653,902, as against the increase of £1,308,000 in expenditure. Mr. Malcolm, whilo advocating economy, was himself knocking at tho door loi expenditure. Mr. Herdman had arrived at his conclusions by ' forgetting what was required in the' way of expenditure to enable tho increased revenue to be earned. The discussion raised by Mr. Herdman was a pure waste of time. An increase was made this year on tho railway appropriations because tho revenue from tho railways had increased - very materially during the year. * Mr. Allen: What do you make the increase iu expenditure h'oni 19U6 to 1909? Sir Joseph Ward: I have not gone into it. 1 am giving Mr. Herdmau'a figures. All the talk that had been indulged in was "flap-doodle" for the reason tbat Mr. Hardma-u had not dealt with both sides of the case. The saving made by retrenchment in the Public Service was over £300,000. ' Mr. Massey: Give us the details. Sir Joseph Ward: When tho hon. gentleman gets tho details he will not be satisfied. The Opposition first preached that retrenchment was necessary, .next that it had not been carried out, then that it had been carried out unfairly, and after that they asked what tho position was. Why were the Opposition taking- £50,000 off the sating from retrenchment? Mr. Herdman was doing it because ho wanted more retrenchment. Mr. Herdman: I never suggested further retrenchment. _ Tho bell ringing at this.moment, Sir u'oseph Ward remarked: "Surely I have not been speaking all that time?" Mr. Massey: No, you have not been speaking. (Laughter.) The Primo Minister: I have been listening to your interjections. Continuing, Sir Joseph Ward said it was proposed to withdraw the protective care of an Administration that had looked after Civil Servants well, and give the service over to the tender mercies of a ieyK high-salaried gilded autocrats, who ' would look after the specially-privileged few at the expense of the many, who would conio to thorn on bended knee and be as hewers of wood and drawers of water. MR. MASSEY'S VIEWS. Mr. MASSEY, Leader of the Opposition, said that the Prime Minister never put morn than one side of a question, and misrepresentation was one of his great faults. He was afraid it was a fault to which politicians wero peculiarly liable. Mr. Herdman, in his figures, had dealt only with the annual Departmental expenditure,, and the Prime Minister had contrasted with them not only the annual revenue, but tho permanent revenue in addition. Mr. Massey quoted the true figures as follows:— ■ Revenue. £ 1905-0 7,584,359 . 1909-10 9,238,201 Increiise- - 1,(153,902 Expenditure. i; 1905-B 7,122.340 1909-10 8,990,922 Increase 1,868,582 "The point is," said Mr. Massey, "that though there was a very .satisfactory increase of revenue, the expenditure ,'ncreaseil to a fur greater estont."

Roads and Bridges. Mr.' Massoy poiuied out that Opposition as well as Government members must represent the needs of their constituents to the Governinont. The system was bad, but so long as it obtained they must make use of it. He sincerely hoped the time would come when a road or bridge would not be mentioned in the House, and the whole time of Parliament would be given to legislation, and to supervising the administration of the Government. The trouble was that there were people jiow who, owing to political interest, got a great deal more than their share. He was not speaking of representations made through members or local bodies, but of friends of the Government, who approached members of tho Government direct. Sir Joseph Ward: Who are they? Mr. Massey: The Prime Minister knows them well. Will he say that men in my own district have not cimo to him in that way? Room for inquiry. Continuing, Mr. Massoy said lie agreed with every word of Mr. Herdman's amendment, and when he saw Royal Commissions set up for comparatively unimportant purposes he thought that if a Royal Commission was required for any object it was required to look into the administration of the Public Service. He was not saying anything about the personnel of the service. Thfcugh there might bo complaints about the administration of the New South Wales Public Works Commissioners, there- was nothing wrong thero to compare with what was going on under the system of political control here. He had never known of a country which had a Public Service Board and went back upon it. The glimpses they got from time to time into the Public Service were not at all reassuring. Referring to Mr. Dinnie's recent appointment, Mr. Massey claimed that for that position a knowledge of -the Maori language, customs, and law was demanded. The only qualification of Mr. Dinnie for the position seemed to bo that he knew nothing about it. That was the qualification set up by the Native Minister. There had been another caso of a gentleman defeated at the polls, who knew nothing of Maori language, law, or affairs, who had been appointed a judge of the Native Land Court. Such appointments showed the need for a Public Service Board. There was also the recent unfortunate business in connection with the Taxes Department. He did not know that Mr. Heyos entered the Service by examination. He knew that Mr. Dugdale, who was retired with hini, had re-entered the Service after retiring on. compensation. Trouble in Taxes Department. There was a very great deal behind what had taken place in the Taxes Department. He knew what was being said outside, and Parliament was entitled to a great deal more information, especially with regard to the cases that came before the two judges. He would deal with the matter at length when the Estimates for the Department were before the House. "What had happened in regard to that Department had created great uneasiness, not only in Wellington, but throughout the Dominion, and the only way to allay that uneasiness was to give proper information as to what had happened to the public. He did not want to know the names of private persons' who might havq business with tho Department, but he claimed that inombors should be made acquainted with the general facts. ■ With reference to the recent incident at Christchurch, no doubt political influence was used. Mr. Witty: You can't say that influence was used to secure an alteration in the police records. Sir Joseph'Ward:'Have you never made representations on behalf of a public officer? Mr. Massey: I never asked a public officer to alter any document. Mr..'Carroll: Mr. Davey says that he never asked that. Mr. Massey: Well, I accept his explanation. ' The Government Organiser. Resuming, Mr. Massey said that he remembered the caso of a man who got a compassionate allowance on retiring from a Government position on account of loss of ej'esigkt. _ . Sir Joseph: Who was that? Mr. Massey: The '■. organiser, of .the Government Party. . If nis eyesight was good enough for that position, it was good enough for him in the position of postmaster at Stratford. . . Continuing his remarks, Mr. Massey said that those were only a few of tho instances which had coino under his own notice. There must be thousands of such cases. By the way, ho should also mention the case at Christchurch, where an architect outside, the Department had been given the work of drawing the plans, etc.,. for. new Government Buildings there. What was that gentleman going to get for his services? If the buildings cost £00,000, he would get£lsou. Was It a Coincidence? It might be a-coincidence that this gentleman's name appeared on a list which came before the House last session. He was one, of the gentlemen who placed £1000 into a newspaper which supported the Government. The Hon. R. M'Konzie: When? Mr. Massey: Within a couple ol years or so. Mr. Ell: Apparently members-of the Liberal party are not to be allowed to make any investment. ' Mr. Massey: And they tako good caro that they make a. good investment. Sequel to By-Election. Resuming, Mr. Massey said that there was also the case of the Raugitikei election. In connection with that contest there was one man who hold the election in tho hollow of his hand. He (Mr. Massey) did not approach him; but the Hon. Mr. Carroll did. Mr. Carroll: Who was he? Mr. Massey: Mr. Georgetti. Mr. Carroll:.You surprise me. ■ Mr. Massoy said that Mr. Georgetti had already received part of his "reward," for he noticed that he had been appointed to the position of a member .of the Wellington Land Board. In conclusion, Mr. Massey said that under the present system the great bulk of the people could not (jot positions in the Public Servico without political influence — working man's son, apart from the few who were able to pass examinations, had no chance unless ho was aided by political influence. The Hon. T. Mackenzie: Were tho recent persons who were appointed. to the Dairy Department appointed in that way?" Mr. Massey: My remarks arc general. MR. LAURENSON SURPRISED. Mr. LAURENSON (Lyttelton) said ho was surprised at Mr. Massoy's bringing up tho cases of two public officials and an inspector in Cliristchurch, which were trivial affairs and had already been dealt with. It waa cruel to suggest that the names of retrenched officers should bo published. Mr. Laureuson went on to defend the position 0? tho national debt and said that very often the fact that a man was getting into debt was a sign of his prosperity. He instanced the case of farmers • who went to the Government Department for advances. Tho clamour for money from all parts of. the country was an indication of its development and progress. Mr. Laurenson opposed the proposal for a Pnblio Service Board as a retrograde stop. A PERTINENT REMINDER. Mr. FISHER (Wellington Central) asked if Mr. Lauronson' in 1905 was not a fellow member with himself of.

a party which denounced the system of allowing Ministers of the Crown to appoint their own relatives to positions in tie service. Had he not trapsed with him from ono end of the colony to the other addressing meetings on that point? Tho best speeches Mr. Laurcnson had ever mado in- the House were made for reform in that matter. But, because ho had drifted over to tho Government side and received promotion and to a certain extent distinction, he turned round and reviled his former companions for doing what he had formerly done with them. Mr. Laurenson remarked that he had always opposed a Public Son-ice Board. A Glance Backwards. Mr. Fisher quoted Mr. Laurenson as having himself criticised, various appointments to the Public Service. Yet that night Mr. Laurenson told them that those who criticised appointments in that way were nothing more nor less than public slanderers. It was net many years since Mr. Laurenson told the then Prime Minister that his power was waning because he was not making the best appointments to the Public Service. Mr. Laurenson understood the necessity for Public Service reform just as much as Opposition members. It was ridiculous to say that members were not to be allowed to comment ou various appointments—on, for instance, the selection of a first-class Irish detective to be King of the Cannibal Islands. Mr. GUTHRIB (Oroua) thought that upon the whole it must be considered that the criticism from the Opposition benches was much fairer than that from the Government benches. Was it not a fact that the Ministers of the Crown in Now Zealand were open to be approached by anybody? That influence '.vas brought to bear nould hot be denied. It was impossible for Ministers to give attention to every detail in regard to the business of their Departments. If there was a Public Service Board Ministers would have the time to think out a policy. With a board as bad been suggested the Ministers would have time to have returns as to loans, etc., supplied to the House without undne delay. The development of the business in the country could not alone account for the great increase in the Departmental expenditure. Outside the House, among tno 'people there was a feeling that a Public Service Board was absolutely necessary. , THE DIVISION LIST. TJpon a division the amendment was rejected by 38 votes to 23, the voting being as under: FOR THE. AMENDMENT—23. Allen Mander Buchanan Massey Buick Newman , Dive Nosworthy Fisher Okey Fraser Pearce Guthrie Phillipps Herdman Rhodes , Herries . Scott. : Hine ~ Thomson, G. M. Lang Wright Malcolm AGAINST THE AMENDMENT-^. Arnold Luke Buddo - Macdonald Buxton M'Kenzie, R. Carroll ' Mackenzie, T. Clark M'Laren Colvitt Myers Davey Poland Dillon ' Poole Duncan, T. Rangihiroa , Ell Ross Field Seddon Forbes Sidey Fowlds Smith Glover Stallworthj Graham . Taylor, E. H. ■ Hall Thomson, J. C. Hanan : Ward Hogan Wilford Hogg • "Witty • ■ ; PAIRS. For the amendment: Anderson, Hardy, Bollard, J. Duncan. Against the amendment: Craigie, Millar, Steward, Ngata. PREMIER REPLIES TO CRITICISM. The PRIME MINISTER, speaking at midnight •on the third reading of the Bill, said that last year when ho saw that there was a shrinkage of revenue, he and his colleagues had to act with courage and piocced with aretrenchment scheme. In referring to Mr. Dinnie, Mr. Fisher had described him as an Irish detective. Mr. Massey:' That was a slip; Mr. Dinnie is a Scotsman. Sir Joseph remarked that such a statement might be wrongly construed. He knew a great many appointments made by this Government which had ; been generally condemned by the Opposition, and he did not know ono instance where the appointment did not turn out well.. In fact, ho could refer Mr. Massey to an Auckland appointment^— ' ' , . . Mr. Massey: It was a political appointment.' Sir Joseph-: Then one can't ever 'appoint a Government man. If Mr. Massey were in power, what would he do? •.:■.■.■'. Mr. Massey: I would appoint the best man. ' ■ .; Sir Joseph: Oh! Mr. Massey: Do you ever appoint an Oppositionist? Plans for Public Buildings. The Prime Minister went on to defend the action of the Government in giving tho work of preparing the plans for the Christchurch Government Buildings to an outside architect. The architect who got tho work recommended the Government to acquire a piece of land which they did not know was for sale, and looked . after the business so that it might go his way. In yiow of the large amount of work which had to be done at the Government Architect's office, tho idea that all public work should be done by tho uffice was a fallacy. The suggestion made by Mr; 'Massey, in which he connected the giving of the work and the fact that the architect had , invested money in the "New Zealand Times," was an unworthy one. Mr. Ma'isey: Their shares are worth •only os. in the £. ' Sir Jo'seph: It does not matter if they are only, worth twopence; a man has a right to invest his money as he thinks fit. . . . .

IMPREST SUPPLY BILL.

NATIONAL ENDOWMENTS DISCUSSED. . An Imprest Supply Bill for £715,000 was brought down. i Following were the schedules.of the Bill:— FIRST SCHEDULE. £ Tho Consolidated Fund 450,000 The Public Works Fund 200,000 The Loans to Local Bodies Account 5,000 The Land for Settlements Account • 1,000 The State- Forests Account ... 2,500 The State Coal Mines Account 25,000 Tho Scenery Preservation Ac- . count 1,000 The Hutt Railway and Road Improvement Account — 6,000 The Railways Improvements Authorisation Act Account 8,000 Tho National Endowment Account' 2,000 The Native Land Settlement Account 1,500 ■ . ' £202,000

SECOND SCHEDULE. m £ The Government Insurance Account ' ; ~ 7,000 The Government Accident Insurance Account 1,000 Tlio State Fire Insurance Account 1500 The Public Trust Office Account 2,000 The State-guaranteed Advances OfficeAdvances to Settlers Account 1,150 Advances to Workers Account 200 Advances to Local Authorities Account 150 ' £13,000.Mr. HERMES (Tauranga) asked for particulars as to an item under thebeading "National Endowments." 'The PRIME MINISTER said that the money was required in connection with the administration of the endowments, the revenue from which was now paid away for educational purposes, and old age pensions. ■' Mr. Herries: Does it mean, for in-, stance, that the State pays for rbading, etc., in connection with the endowments? I think that only the net • revenue should go to the funds in question. Sir Joseph: This amount is required under the Act, and must be provided in the ordinary way. Mr. Herries: Is it required for roads? , Sir Joseph: I can't say. Mr. Carroll: It is for surveying. Mr. FRASER (Watatipu) declared that, national endowment lands . were to be charged with all surveys and roading, and Messrs. Massey and Allen expressed a similar opinion. The PRIME MINISTER replied thai surveys were not included in roading. Mr. HERRIES stated that there was' not so much activity in connection pith the settlement of endowment lands. Indeed, he would back the Native Department against. the Lands Depart ment in the matter.. . .' "Freehold Will Never be Clven." Mr. MASSEY. said that he had information to the effect that settlers were placed on a block of endowment land in the King Country by way of improved farm settlements, and it was not until after they had started making improvements that they discovered that the land was endowment land and that it would bo impossible for them to acquire the freehold. The PRIME MINISTER said the fact that the rentals from the endowment, lands totalled between £60,000 and £70,000 per annum was the best answer to the suggestion that the settlement of those lands was not going on reasonably fast. The only complaint that lie had heard in regard to the settlement of those lands was that the settlers desired the freehold. "It is not intended," he added, "to make any provision for the conversion of the tenure of the national endowment lands into the freehold. If there are people going on those lands on the assumption that they may be able to get -fie freehold later then it was his opinion that this country will never agree to it." Mr. WITTY (Riccarton) said he was glad to hear Mr. Herries say that these lands were of some value, for Mr. Massey. had called them bogus endowments. _■' ■ ■ V Should the National Endowments be Retained? Mr. WILFORD (Hutt) said he agreed with Mr. Massey that it would be better to sell ,the national endowment lands and purchase other lands adjacent to cities, which in the years to come would prove a much more valuable asset. . . Mr. E. H. TAYLOR (Thames) thought it was folly to talk about selling'the endowments, aud at the- same timo to talk.about the- future development of. the country. ' i ■Mr. BUCHANAN. (Wahrarapa), said there was no proposal to do away with endowments. The proposal was to make better endowments, and with that proposal he agreed. The present endowments were generally composed of second and third-class lands, and many of them of worse-. It was desirable that the endowments should consist of lands that would most improve in value. There were lands set aside in the Wellington Province for educational purposes. There had never been a settler on them, and probably no member of the House would live to see a settler oh them, because they were not improvable, and no settler could make a living out of them. There were lands in Scotland which were still in.: the samo state as when the Romans came, because they were unimprovable. Endowments May Be Doubled. Mr. MASSEY said he had never pro-, posed to ■do away with tho endowments. He did not caro if they weredoubled, so long as the settlers:who; went on them had the right of the, freehold. Public opinion was undoubte'dly coming round to his point of view. Mr. HINE (Stratford) asked how it was that moro than 200 leases had been, issued under the lease in perpetuity, since it was repealed under the Act of. 1903. " .- . Messrs. Poland (Ohmemuri) and Malcolm (Clutha) also took" part in the discussion. ' ' . The Hon. T. MACKENZIE, Minister for- Agriculture, said he was surprised at the amount of revenue received from tho endowments. Many lands in Scotland formerly regarded as unimprovable, had been much improved, and large areas of other laJid were depopulated and given up to deer forests: The introduction, of scientific methods ,was bringing land into occupation that was formerly regarded as valueless; .Land in Nelson that was formerly worth only ss. an acre was now used most scientifically for fruit growing, and land in the Waikato had been similarlyimproved. Remarks by the Primo Minister, ' The PRIME MINISTER counselled members to stick to the national endowments. If half the annual revenue from them (£30,000) were invested it would yield at 4 per cent. £13,000,000 in 75 years. How much would this. country, lose if it adopted that course and got the £30,000 towards education, and old age pensions from _ another source? _ ■ ' The Bill was read a third time and passed, and the House rose at 0.25 a.m. . ■ -.'.-J