THE COUNCIL.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 868, 14 July 1910, Page 6

THE COUNCIL.

DR, FINDLAY ON LAND QUESTION. "TENURES "UNIMPORTANT." Tho Hon. Dr. HNDLAY, who continued tlio debate on tho Address-in-Eeply in tho Council yesterday, spoke mainly on tho land question. "I believe the- Land Bill of last year," said Dr. Rndlay. "was in tho main as .successful an attempt to settle the difficulties which beset this question as has yet been made iu New Zealand. 1 am prepared to reaffirm the main lines of that Bill." The question of granting tho freehold should be considered under two broad divisions: "Should tho freehold be granted to existing Crown tenants?" and "Should the freehold be granted to future Crown tenants by way of option?" Outside of politicians, the people who were demanding the freehold wero the men on the land, men who had prospered more than almost any other class, and'not the landless thousands who wero seeking to get ~n tho land. The demand came first of all from politicians, and it was raised for' a purely political purpose, because it could be made a useful party cry. But behind the politicians there was a considerable section of Crown tenants -who did ask for, and desire, the freehold. Classes of Tenure, There were 11,349 tenants' under leasc-in-perpetuity for whom the freehold was demanded, including land for settlement tenants. There were also 1781 tenants under renewable lease, of whom 875 wore settled upon the national endowments, and 657 upon lands which were taken from private owners for closer settlement. Only 249 were under the renewable lease on 'ordinary Crown lands. There .were 7482 tenants under the perpetual lease on ordinary Crown lands, and the total number of those who had taken up land with right of purchase was G225. More had taken up land under the lease-in-perpetuity than under the occupation with right of purchase. It might bo said that the lease-in-perpetuity settlers had no option, but he found that more than half of them in the North Island, where most of them were, had had the option and declined it. They deliberately chose tho lease-in-perpetuity instead of the occupation with right of purchase. If the freehold was so infinitely superior to the lease-in-perpetuity, why did not these men take it? It took the shape of insincerity or moonshine when they said that the granting of tho freehold would make an immense difference to their energies, and consequently to the productiveness of their land. They might discard for tho present tho renewable lessees, who took up their land with positive information that that form of tenure was devised to give the people of this country some portion of tho unearned increment, and that they wero not to get the freehold. It was nonsenso for those lessees now to demand an unqualified freehold. The demand for the freehold, therefore, was almost wholly for men who at present held tho land for 999 years. Call it What You Like. Ho would not deal with the provisions in last year's Bill to provide some means by which these tenants who sought to convert their 999 years' lease into freehold could get the concession. He had been asked if, under a freehold system, a proper bar could be devised against aggregation. He believed that that could be done beyond all.question. It had been most effectively done in Denmark. If such a provision could be devised assuredly they must stick to the leasehold in every case, but if they could deviss it satisfactorily lie was sure the advocates of the leasehold would say. "I don't care what name you give it or what form it takes, what. I am concerned about are the rights of the State and the interests of the people, and if theso aro safeguarded you can call it what you like and shape it in any form you like." If might be said that the leaseholders under renewable tenures—l7Bl all told— had not the same cause for satisfaction as those under tho lease-in-perpetuity. There were 249 of these tenants on ordinarv Crown lands. To ask the Government "to give the freehold to the remaining 875 tenants on national endowments was simply to ask the Government to turn its brick upon its first principle, and to urge that the freehold should bo given on the terms on which it was asked to these tenants on the lands that had been taken from private individuals for closer settlement was equally preposterous. That left them considering the case, of the 24!) tenants on ordinary Crown lands, and he 'asked, ought they to make much fuss about 21!) tenants holding something like twenty thousand acres? Ho felt sure they could agree that the renewable lease gave as full and fair a right and title to land as any reasonable settler could demand. Last Year's Bill—And This Year's. In last year's Bill a provision was made giving tho freehold on a recurring chango system which secured to tho State a certain proportion of tho unimproved value along with limitation of area, and other desiderata. Had that Bill reached the Council ho was prepared with actuarial and other estimates which he believed would at least have shown that the Primo Minister in that Bill sought to maintain two principles—a fair measure of security and fixity of tenure to tho lessee, reserving to the State all tho advantages which it now received under the renewable lease system. The J.nnd Bill of this year would reach the Council in duo course from another place, and that was not the place for him to anticipate its proposals. What he was concerned to show was that tho political'cry of freehold to-day was a. gross exaggeration of (lie importance of (enures iu uur policy of land setdement. Pr. I'indlay enlarged on the advantages of tlic renewable lease system, mid slated that if the tenant under that system, ivlio had nothing to complain of. wanted.

a cluingo of (entire "he must make somo proposal that would make it worth while for tho Crown to act." The Problem—"Not Tenure but Territory. •' "What wo wanl," declared Dr. Findlay, "is land upon which lo settle our people, and this agitation for the freehold is preventing tho concentrated and united effort of all parties to find land to supply tho needs of our small settlers." Therefore, those who carried on tho crusade so violently were not doing a service to this country. "The problem of government to-day is not tenure, but territory—to find land for our people, not to squabble with regard to forms of tenure." There were only 11 million of acres left in the Crown's hands, including national endowments and excluding Maori lands. There were settled last year 2552 settlers of all classes upon 2,311,000 acres of Crown land. Allowing for the fact that some of this land was under pastoral lease, at this rate in six years there would be no Crown land left. The population was increasing by 23,000 a year, and if only half the increase found its way on to the land more land must be settled in the future than was being settled now, and where was it to como from? At most (hero was only two million acres of Native land not already disposed of that would be available for European settlement, and that area could only last a very few years. Subdivision of Large Estates, "We shall have sooner or later," si?id Dr. Findlay. "to turn our face strenuously towards the subdivision of largo estates." The available Crown land would probably be all disposed of in six years, and the Native land in a fewyears .more. New Zealand would be driven, liko older countries, to subdivision of the larger estates, and also it would not Ise possible to give the settler of the future the same area as he had been getting in tho past. More important again than the question of tenure was the question of improved methods of farming which, as in Denmark, would get tho most out of small • areas. Dr. Findlay also referred to the co-operativo system of tho Danish farmers, who he said had found that the doctrines of individualism, in their more rigid forms at least, were exploded. Replying to the Hon. J. Anstey, as to tho subdivision of runs in tho Mackenzie Country, Dr. Findlay urged that the present runs wero mostly granted before this Government came into ollice, that the absentee, aspect had been exaggerated, and that this was about the worst land that could bo suggested for purposes of closer settlement. Prison Reform. Turning to prison reform proposals, T)r. Findlay said he hoped that the Indeterminate Sentence Bill prepared would constitute a reform which would save a great many of tho young men and women who too often went down lower and lower on the path of crime. Experiments to encourage prisoners to reform had been made at Invercargill and at the tree-planting camps with good success. Remissions of scntenco and money for their wives were offered as rewards to prisoners, with tho result that some of the men had not only worked well during normal hours, but had asked permission to work overtime, and wero doing so, and the effect of this encouragement towards reformation could be seen in their characters. Ho hoped by tho end of next year at longest they would bo well on the waj to having a good penal farm thirty or forty miles from Hamilton. The project had been delayed this winter by difficulties of cartage. WAS IT A "FEELER"? MR. RIGG SDSPECTS A FREEHOLD BILL. Tho Hon. .T. RIGG (Wellington) sain that undoubtedly in his prison reform sthenics Dr. Findlay was proceeding upon wise and modern lines. There should bo a maximum punishment for each crime, but the prisoner should be released when his reformation justified. With regard to maternity cases, he thought that more might be done for tht> unfortunate girls and women who were not married. He was disappointed to see so little reference in the Governor's Speech to industrial questions, though he was pleased with tho promise of the Annuities Bill. He would like the Government to retrace the step which they took when they made it a crime for a man to strike without giving notice. That law was a disgrace, he thought, to democratic New Zealand, and it would defeat its end the same as any other excessive sentence, by revolting public opinion. The whole question of industrial conciliation and arbitration required to be reconsidored, and the Government might consider his suggestion that where thero was an award tho union should enter into a bond for its fulfilment, and outside- that there should be free dealing. Referring to tho land question, Mr. Rigg snid: "It is generally believed that the Government intends to introduce a Freehold Bill." Tho Hon. J. T. Paul (Otago): Oh, no. Wo iloit't believo that, A Disagreeable Surprise.,, Mr. Rigs:'"Well, there is that impression, and I must say I don't listen to anything that fell from the AttorneyGeneral that would remove that impression from the mind of anyone who has very strong political feelings with regard to the land question. It seemed to be rather as if he was pegging away for what might be a disagreeable surprise to those who advocate the leasehold throughout the Dominion. If that is the intention of tho Government, I regret it very much; and I shall consider it my duty, if such a Bill comes forward, to oppose it to the best of my ability." If the freehold tenure was good, there had never been any need for tho leasehold legislation of Ballanco and Sir John M'lvenzie. Tho land question was at the bottom of every other question, social and political. The renewable leases, as well as the lease in perpetuity, were on a basis that was too favourable lo tho tenant, as compared with tho State. He did not think there was any fear of New Zealand being overpopulafed for a, very long lime to come. What was needed was smaller subdivision, and I his country would carry a population of ten millions. Against Large Families. He did not believo it was necessary that people should have large families, and ho had the courage to say that he did not believo in the State encouraging largo families. All that was required was that the birthrate should bo sufficient to provide for natural loss, with perhaps an extra ono to mako up for possible unforeseen circumstances. He would have liked to hear something of tho Government's proposed scheme to pay off the public debt, but he could not believe that any good purpose could Ije effected by the attempt. If the Government, tried to do it by a given date the attempt would be disastrous, and if it. was intended merely to provide a. sinking fund for Ihe loans, and extinguish them in a. certain time, there was nothing new in tho proposal, which had alrcady lieen tried in this country and had failed. The debate was adjourned at. 5.15 p.m.. on the motion of the Hon. G. Jones, and tho Council rose.