LABOUR DEPARTMENT.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 821, 21 May 1910, Page 3

LABOUR DEPARTMENT.

BREACH WITH A UNIONORSPECTORS AND THEIR DUTIES. 'A LIVELY INTERVIEW. ' Prom what transpired during a conference on Thursday evening between members of the Furniture Workers' Union and the Hon. J. A. Millar, it was .evident that an unsatisfactory position of affairs has existed between the union and the Labour Department for Borne time past. Mr. Moriarty (on behalf of the union) explained that tho object of the de- . pntation was to try and adjust a num- , faer of grievances which existed between 1 the Department and tho Union. The position was this: The Department seemed, he did not say purposely,_ to have taken a stand against the union. In sbdrt, they could not get the Department to take cases of alleged breach of: award, or to inspect the factories. His union did not wish to harass tho employers; it was his opinion that the ' unions wore the finest things for both parties. If, however, the unions were xoiced to take the cases, it naturally put the employers against them, and made an agitator of the secretary, no matter how impartial ho might be. As regards the factories, the unions had to rely on the Department, as their secretary had no power to inspect them. .He did not think that a , secretary ehonld have to go into a factory under the guise of friendship, in order to find out if anything were wrong bofore the inspectors looked into the matter. If be did this, it would soon leak out as to how the inspectors got to know, and he .would then bo refused admittance to the factories. Ho detailed a number of cases which tho union had bronght before the Court after the Department had declined to take proceedings. That they were not of a frivolous nature was proved by the fact that in a majority of them con.Victions were entered, and in some instances heavy fines inflicted. "To Save the Employers."

He nert complained as to the nature of the replies which the Department Bent to the union in regard to alleged breaches. It would appear, he asserted, as if the Department went out of Hβ way to invent tales to save the ■ employers. In one case, the Department had sought full information in regard to an alleged breach, and then replied that they considered the evidence insufficient; but evon if it were adequate, the union could do nothing, bs the firm had not been a party to the award. Touching upon- another com- ' plaint, one of the inspectors had. written that it was better to leave well alone, as tho worker in ' question was an old man, who would have to go out on the street, and then there would not be sufficient work for a competent man. In such a case, the proper course -was for the worker to apply for an under-rate permit, which would not have been opposed. : It seemed ae if Bome of the officials went out of their way to add something to their reply which made all the mischief. He should mention that they had always found Mr. Lomas, tho chief inspector, yery courteous iand obliging. As a result of what had taken place, however, the union had got full up of it. The position now was that as long as the present inspectors -were there ' the union could not trust its work to them again. He ■ wished to say that the union regretted having to take that etep, but they realised that there must bo something radically wrong inside the Department unknown to the Minister. Whafr.was the position when hehad.deeired that the Department should inspect all the furniture factories? y The Department had replied that inspection could tako place, he would have to give specific instances. ;Ho had then replied that ho gathered that he would have to find out anything that was wrong, and then the Department would go and ascertain if what be-had said was correct. In a further reply, he had been informed that his surmiso as .to the nature of the information required before inquiry could be made was correct. Aβ he had said before, ho did not believe in a secretary being placed in that position. "A Rough Randltng In Court." The case which the union had brought , had cost thorn £16, whilst tho fines which had gone ■to tho Government amounted to about £30. Although nearly six months had elapsed,- some of the fines had not yet been collected by the Department. Then, again, ae to the hearing of cases in the Magis-. trate's Court, Dr. M'Arthur, S.M., would not allow costs for the union's solicitor, •as ho considered that the secretary should take the cases. When he (Mr. Moriarty) took the next case, .however, Mr. Riddell, S.M., gave, him a rough handling, in tho course of which he told him to get a book on evidence, and study it. He (Mr. Moriarty) thought it would not havo been a bad thing if wmeono sent a copy of the Act to the magistrate. Owing to the fact that no notice had been given of intention to defend, and he bad asked for an adjournment, but was required to pay all costs, instead of the other side, as it was through their omission that he needed . the adjournment. Then, again, Mr. Riddell, S.M., had refused ■ to accept any. but strictly legal evidence, which he (Mr. Moriarty; claimed ' was against'tho spirit of tho Act. It was a curious thing that on tho day that the case again came-on for hearing, the clerk of the Court camo to him and asked him if he had a lawyer, or wa3 appearing personally. Mr. Moriarty proceeded to say that the fact that the Department did not take a case handicapped a union before the Court. In i such cases the solicitor for the employer invariably asked if it were not u fact that the Department had declined to tako action. Then, when the union's solicitor asked for costs in a case which tho Department had not been asked to investigate, the employers' solicitor opposed on the "ground that the Department was the machinery for taking eases, and tho employer should not, in such a case, be saddled with tho'costs..

Some Factories in a Dangerous State. As regards the factories, there could be no doubt that some were in a dangerous state. In one case, a chair liad fallen and injured a worker; in another, a tailor's iron had fallen through the ceiling close to a worker; and in mice. case in particular, part of the factory is not fit to work in when it Tains. ■ Mr. Newton: Which one? Mr. Moriarty gave tho name of an establishment. In conclusion, Mr. Moriarty said that the only alternative —and he did not approve of it—was for the secretaries of unions to bo .given tho power to inspect factories. It would please the unions jf things went on so well that no cases had to be taken in a twelvemonth. Mr. Lomas at this stage mentioned that one of tho cases which had been Blinded-to was settled when Mr. Hogg Pas Minister for Labour. Mr. Moriarty: The trouble with our anion seemed to start from that tiihe. It was "then that tho Department seemed to recognise that it was boss over the Minister, that hn was a mere puppet in their hands. And we have not got back into the old groove again. THE MINISTER'S VIEW OF IT. Mr. Millar, in reply, said he was torry to learn that there was any friction between the union and the De-

partraont. Ho had always thought that things were going on smoothly. It had to bo remembered that the officers of tho Department had very difficult and onerous positions. There must be some little cause which ought to bo removed, and ho would talk plainly throughout in connection with tho matter. It was absolutely impossible for awards, he might point out that there properly if it did not have the co-opera-tion of the unions. One letter sent by tho Department might not have been so curt, and still be' perfectly clear. It would, however, be admitted that as a rule tho officers of the Department were generally courteous and endeavoured to look after their work properly. As regards alleged breaches of awards, ho might point out that there was an onus on the Department not to bring qases which were not justified. Ho had instructed the Department not to take any case which seemed frivol-' ous or where the breach,was tho result of an innocent mistake,' but that they were to prosecute in connection with all deliberate breaches. With reference to tho inspection of factories, it was clear that those' in connection with the furniture industry in Wellington had not been neglected. He found that between March 31, 1909, and February 2, 1910, So visits had been paid to such factories. Periodical inspections were carried out in order to see that there was sufficient space, cleanliness, etc. It would be impossible for the whole of the factories in any one trade to be inspected every time the secretary of any particular union desired it.

Mr. Moriarty: We don't make the suggestion. Cive the Inspectors a Fair Chance. •Mr. Millar went on to Bay that a policeman, for instance, had a right to enter a house if he suspected wrongdoing, but he could not enter every house in a neighbourhood merely because he thought a criminal might be in one of them. Ho would ask the secretaries of.unions to assist the Department by letting it know of any specific cases where improvements to factories were necessary, so that inquiry might be made on tho subject. They should give the officers of the Department a fair chance, and then if steps were not taken to see into the matter ho would certainly blame the Department. It must be borne in mind that' the officers were not standing about with their hands in'their pockets looking for a job, but as soon as possible after a complaint were received it would be attended'to. It was, in his opinion, the duty of a secretary, if ho knew anything that' required to be remedied . about a factory, to acquaint the Department. All that they need do would bo to telephone up giving an inkling of what was wrong. That was what, was tho usual practice all over the country; it was only with the assistance of secretaries-that the Department Could attend properly to that part of their duties. It would be. impossible to have special inspectors for each industry, as it would mean too large a staff, and the Department would just have to do its best in the matter. . Thoroughness of Official Reports. Mr. Moriarty at : this stage questioned the thoroughness of some of tho inspections which had been made by the inspectors. Ho said that the remark, "All in order" was quite inapplicable in some instances. Referring to one establishment he asked who had submitted the report. Mr. Millar:'Mrs. Hawthorne. Mr. Moriarty: But does her report cover the machinery? Mr. Millar: I suppose so.. I don't know. Mr. Moriarty: Why'there is hardly one of them that is not in a more or less dangerous state. ~. ... ..,.. . Mr. Millar: What do you call dangerOUS? . . ~.,,;.:■;:,. '~,,... , ~•„,., Mr. Moriarty: The machinery' is'dangerous; there are no loose pulleys. Mr. Millar: It is a matter for the Inspection of Machinery Department. Mr. Lomas: .Wo have been' in conflict with tho Department more than onceover this point.Mr. Millar: There was one case where an inspector of factories ordered something to be done after the machinery inspector had certified that everything was all right, with the result that the Inspection of Machinery Department wanted to know who was responsible for the state of the machinery. Mr. Moriarty: The saws in the furniture factories should have guards and loose pulleys. ■ Mr. Millar: I'.shall send notice to tho Chief Inspector of Machinery to see that thoy are properly protected. What the Department Had Done. Continuing, Mr. Millar said that it must bo admitted that the Department had taken a good many cases in regard to the furniture industry. When they had not felt justified in laying a charge- they had declined, to do so. He then read official reports on complaints which had been investigated by the Department. Mr. Moriarty: Some of those cases were never referred , to the Department.' Yet the inspectors have'prepared reports in regard to them. It is adding insult to injury. • Mr. Millar, resuming, said that the Department wanted the award carried out fairly, and it had to be sure of its facts, otherwise by a little want of judgment in this respect it would soon have everybody "by the ears." "That considerable care was displayed wae shown by the fact that rarely was a case lost. Inspectors had been told that wJiero a breach was wilful, no mercy was to be shown; but where it was a first offenco and all harm had been rectified, no charge- should be laid. He would undertake to say that since the Department was started. thousands of pounds in wages had been recovered which tho workers did not know was duo to them. . . I

Mr. Lomas: We have cases of the kind every week.

Mr. Millar proceeded to add that the Department could not lay charges on ■ a flimsy pretext 5. if it lost a lot of cases it would do it harm.. Ho would admit, that , unions were handicapped when they had to bring cases themselves, for tho magistrate and the lawyers knew that the Department had declined to lay the charge. Ho did not know whether the Court had tho power to'grant costs to unions. Mr. Moriarty: We get slight costs from magistrates -who want lawyers to conduct the *das,os. Bigger costs are always given' against us than in our favour. Culf Further Widened. Mr. Millar: If you fancy that .yo\i do not get equal treatment, tho best thing to do would bo to draw the attention of the Minister for Justicoto the matter. Mr. Moriarty: What about tho case where we didn't got notice of intention to defend? Mr. Millar: Well, I think that tho magistrate was, perhaps, wrong, but I cannot discuss the point. In conclusion, Sir. Millar said he hoped the union would reconsider its decision not to ask the Department to take any more cases for it. Ho said his officers were as willing to see the furnituro award properly carried out as any othor award. The officers knew that it was not his desire that anything should bo done to injure one sido or the other. "I hope," ho added, "that the same good feeling which previously existed between tho union and the Department will bo restored." Before the deputation withdrew, Mr. Moriarty referred to somo of tho official reports on various cases. In moro than one of them, lie said, thero wero positive mis-statements. He felt that, as a result of those reports, the gulf between the xuiion and the Department would bo greater than ever.