THE LICENSING LAW.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 791, 14 April 1910, Page 5

THE LICENSING LAW.

ALLIANCE SEEKS REFORMS. AN ATTACK ON THE "TRADE." REFERENCES TO THE MAGISTRACY. Several important matters relating to too licensing law were brought under the notice of the Hon Dr. Findlay (Minister for Justice yesterday by a deputation from tho Now Zealand Alliance, which was briefly introduced by Mr Wright, The Rev. J.Dawson (secretary of the Alliance) said that what they wished to call attention to in regard to sly grog-: selling did not. apply alone, to No-License districts, but was perhaps more prevalent in License areas, though that fact was not so much emphasised by the press. Wellington, for instance, was by no means a perfect example of what a License city ought to bo, as the number of cases of sly. grog-selling sheeted home during the past three months was very numerous, and other cities were somewhat in the same 'position. They recognised that it was a very serious thins even to suggest anything that would be an impeachment of the Bench, and they did not want to do this, but they did wish to mention facts that were on record (to emphasise their points) that might not seem -far from an impeachment even of the Bench In the Ashburton 'electorate there had, ho alleged, been a very determined attempt since 1902 to discount tho law in every possible way. They were not present to complain of the police. Some cases which had been proved had been dealt with in a way which seemed to the public to make the'' law ridiculous. Gaol for Sly Grog-selling.

They were reluctant to ask that a man should '.be sent to gaol for a first offence for sly grog-sellingi but as some of the magistrates'had emphasised that it would be, difficult, if not impossible, to properly administer the licensing law until that were done, thev felt compelled to urge that that should be made the law, 60 . that .a magistrate should ' not have any option. Sly grog-selling was an offence which had to be cleverly planned, and in which there may bo more than one to 'carry it into effect;/ it was not an offence in which a. man was overtaken in fault or in which, a - man Was likely to be in ignorance of the law. Not long ago a man was before the Court iii the Ashburton district for ordering liquor by telephone from Methven, but the. magistrate,, who regarded tho offence as a technical one, imposed a fine of only 55.; whilst, in the same Court, an old ago pensioner was fined ss. for drunkenness. There was another case in which a man had been previously convicted twice-and fined for sly grog-sellingi and was now convicted for a third offence. It would appear that the. magistrate, had listened to counsel's argument that since the, two Erevious convictions the', boundaries' had een altered, and the new offence must therefore' be regarded as a first offence, because he,had imposed only a fine. If there was,'no option but imprisonment for a first offence, sly grog-selling would soon be stamped out. Then again if it were made illegal for anybody to procure, or store liquor for other people in a No-License district, ■it would be very much easier to effectively deal with the offence.. Abolish, Conditional, Licenses. There was how.a'strong feeling that no conditional licenses should be granted. They could not see that it was impossible to.carry on a cattle sale unless liquor was procurable. The same remark would apply with great force to race meetings. It had recently been shown at the Hntt that a conditional license could be granted upon a document signed by tho chairman and two members of the committee without even a meeting being held. Public _opinion on this and so many other points was being 60 outraged that the. hands of : the police should-be strengthened and the law made stricter. There was also a loophole in connection with the serving of liquor to Natives." Dr. Findlay: That is due to an'oversight, and will be put right. _• ■ --■ Mr. Dawson (continuing) said that at i Ashburton in 1906 Sir Joseph Ward had remarked: "AVhere No-License is carried it is the duty of the. police and all officers: of the law to see that the law is carried out.".'ln conclusion; Mr. Dawson urged that c6nfiscated liquor should be destroyed. Eecently when liquor of the kind was auctioned at TVaihi, the scenes were sad beyond description.. How the Transvaal Stampod Out Sly ',;. Grog-selling. The' Rev. A.' Dewdney .said that they were gratified by the large measure of police aotivity, but felt: that that activity was discounted by the large, disoretionary power held by the magistrates. A fine of up to .£SO meant nothing at all to a sly grog-seller as'the records would show. He wished to call attention to a strange, anomaly in the licensing law: the penalties - for a first, second, and third offences, were possibly heavier in a License area than in a' No-License district. No matter where the offence was committed, surely the offence was as great? It might interest the Minister to know that whilst Lord Milner was in office in the Transvaal effective steps were taken to stamp out sly grogselling. In an ordinance issued by his Lordship, the penalty for illegal dealing in . liquor was fixed as follows:—Mrst offence, imprisonment, for 'not less than six months nor more than 12 months; tor,-a second offence, not less, than 12 months, nor more than. two years, and for a third offence, not less than two years, 'nor more than three years.

Strong Remarks. About "the Trade." >The' Rev. Mr.: Pee said it must be obvious that those men who. stooped to sly grog-selling were simply agents of the Trade; they bad behind them the brewers and the liquor merchants. It would be impossible for a" man to get quantities of. liquor into a No-License district for any length of time unknown to the merchants. 'They.must know, and know at an early date, what the man is getting supplies for. Out of a business that brought in such large profits as theirs it was a mere. bagatelle to. ■ ■ pay .£SO, or . oven : ,£IOO. But if the penalty for sly grog-selling was imprisonment for a first offence and a longer term for a second conviction; men would not so easily get such agents. Ho did not say that what he had asserted was every word of it.true, but it was •possible and perhaps probable. Not long ago, according to press reports, a firm of brewers was caught red-handed sending liquor into the King Country under a false consignment note, but upon conviction were fined only .£9. If a miserable catspaw of tho Trado had been caught selling tho liquor he would have been fined ,£SO. ' No monopoly should be allowed to run their trade to the detriment of the community. ; Mr. Helyer pointed out that the late Commissioner of Police had on several occasions recommended that the penalty for sly grog-selling should bo increased.

DR. FINDLAY IN REPLY. Dr. Rndlay said that any movement directed to enforce the law more effectively had his entire sympathy. What had been said that day fell into two wholly distinct divisions. A good deal of what had been said could not be interpreted otherwise than as reflecting on tho magisterial bench of this country. No one would be frank with himself if he did not admit that what had been said by one or two of the speakers amounted to a charge of something like partisanship—of favour in tho justice seat. That ho wanted to impress on the deputation was a very serious charge to inaKo. He wished to say--and meant every word of it—that if ho was satisfied that any magistrate allowed •' favour for any particular interest—ho did not care what It was—to directly affect his judgment, he would be put off the Bench as soon as ho could get Cabinet to do it. Charges against the honest discretion 'of the Bench should not be mndo lightly, and ho was glad, to see that what hod been said had been safeguarded by a statement that tho remarks were not intended as an impeachment. But ho'was bound to say in defenco of the Bench that he knew of no instance of anything amounting to dishonesty in tJie exercise of discretionary power having been shown by any magistrate. Errors, of course, wero eometime6 made, and fines in his judgment quit© inadequate imposed, but that | this was tho result of anything : ji the' nature of partisanship ho declined to be-J

Here. If the penalties imposed by law ■were not sufficient to c><-ck the commission of a particular offence, then it was . quite olaar that they must be increased. He was free to admit that where ',t was' ' shown that an offence was repeated as often as sly grog-selling was sometimes committed, there was very reasonable ground for asking that the penilties should be reconsidered, w'.th the intention of making them more of a deterrent, . Wide Range of Fines. During tho last three months fthor* had been nine convictions for sly groglolling in Wellington, and the penalties imposed had been as follow:—£10, .£l, £20, £20, £15, £15, £15, £20, and £5, a total of £121, or an average of somewhere between £13 and £14 for each fine. In; Masterton there had been two convictions, and a penalty of £50 imposed in each case. Three offences had been proved at Christchurch, and the penalties were £20, £1, and 10s., but he had no doubt that these were cumulative penalties, and not necessarily against different people. Other instances were:—lnvercargill, one of £15; Dunedin, one of £50; Ohakuue, four against two accused, the fines totalling £100; Auckland, ode of £3; Pnlnierston North, one of £5, and one of seven days; and Geraldine, one of £1. It was true that there was a diversity in.the amounts of the fines. There'was then flhe question as to what should be done in the way of increasing tho penalties. He did not know whether Mr. Dewdney had.noticed that in a No- ' License district ■ a sly grog-seller was liable.to a fine on a first conviction,but upon a second conviction imprisonment must be imposed. With regard to a License district, there was am option of imprisonment all through. He did not know whether it.was suggested tha't the penalties in tho ca6e of a No-License district should apply also to a Licens* district. He wouTd bring the matter I be- • fore Cabinet, for the law must be made effective to prevent sly grog-selling.. It was a contemptible offence, unlike, for instance, a orimo of passion.

Discretionary Power Must be Retained. - But if it were laid down that a magistrate must have mo discretionary power to impose a fine in the case of a first ' offence, it would not do. Let them suppose; a case, arising out of a thoughtless act.' A wayfarer might call at thtr house of ,a. settler,' and esk for • . a glas3 of whisky, which might bV-»'.. ' given him by tho Eettler's wife, upon whom, say, a shilling might be. thrust Nobody would like to see a woman sent» to gaol under these circumstances. If •/■■'■■■ every kind of case was going to be pro- " video for, discretionary powers Would, have to be given' the magistrates. Ho ■ had no doubt that what the deputation ; , had said would prove helpful; as, among other things, it wculd call the attention of the magistrates to the feeling that exists in regard to.tho offence.''lt was '.. -due to the magistrate at: Ashburton to say that probably in low he could not do otherwise than he had done. Mr. Fee: But the offence was committed at the same, place on each occasion. ■•'■• Dr. Findlav (resuming) said the trate probably acted on a fair conception..,; of the law. If he was wrong.he was wrong—he could not say, as he had not V looked into the matter. As regards the request.that conditional licenses should !,': be abolished, and for other amendments ■ ; ' of the law, he would lay before Cabinet the views that had been expressed.

Position as to Forfeited Liquor. Then, again, with reference to the'suggestion that all confiscated liquor ought to be destroyed, he might point out that he could not control the magistrates' discretion. The Act said that the ■, liquor should bo sold or otherwise disposed of. ■He ' had no doubt that the magistrates •would readily agree to carry out a uniform practice, that in all cases, except where exceptional circumstances existed, the liquor should' be destroyed. In conclusion, Dr: I'lndlay 1 said he thought the deputation would find that the Government would make some alteration's, when, the various matters came up, to meet the difficulties that had been suggested. Even if no alterations in the law were made, tho calling of attention to the points would of itself be found to have had a good effect. ~''"•''