PREMIER V. HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 701, 29 December 1909, Page 6

PREMIER V. HOUSE.

.< , ' « THE REINSERTED VOTE. RESUMPTION 1 ' OF THE BATTLE. IMPORTANT POINT OF ORDER. la ,', ,> Thij debate on tho proposal to reinstate tho 'volo for tho position of financial 1V adviser at Homo was resumed in the House of Eepresentativos ' yesterday., Prior to tho resumptipn of tho discussion two important questions were raised by' the Loader of the Opposition as to the validity of tho 'proceedings He con- „ tended that the proper course to adopt if it were desired to restore tho vote j would be to recommit the, general Estimates; and, further, that such an ,-, item did not come within tho scopo or '" purposes of tho Supplementary Estimates On both points ho was, however, overruled. When The Domtmon went to press, the" debate was still proceeding. When the sittings of the House were Jtesumed, Mr. Massey said that going any further he N would call attention to , tho ' position which tho Houso had got ,intp with regard to tho attempt to reinstate ~ a vote for the financial advisor on,the Supplementary 'Estimates, which had * , been struck off the general Estimates He was strongly of opinion that it was not compotent for tho Houso to do that Since the House adjourned ho had searched the records both of tho Imperial and the New Zealand Parliaments. It \ was improper to attempt to deal again during the same session with a qnestion> jirhioh had been dealt with at an earlier , part of tho session, unless by Way of xe- , committal Then, again, lie would con- , tend that tho item in question did not come within tho scope or purpose for L> which provision might bo made on the ■" Supplementary Estimatos. Section 118 of ' tho Standing Orders was as follows. "No r J iruestion or amendment may be proposed ! -which is the same in substance as any question which, during the same session, has been resolved in tho affirmative or negative " Earlier 'in tho bossion ho r (tho speaker) had boon ruled out of order -when he proposed an amendment to the Lands Setttoirait Administration'Bill ■which, it was held,'was substantially the ' same as ono which had previously teen sejected. \ ■- Authorities Quoted. ■ 1 May at page 300 said "It is a rule in "i loth Houses, which is essential to tho due performancefot their duties', that no 1 . questien erißill shall Jbo eflercd that is % »übstantially tho same as eno en which their judgment 110,3 already been expressed in current session." Mr. Wilford: Is this a question or | ' Bill? i Mr.iMassey: It is parallel to,a Bill -1 Eesuming, Mr. Massey said it might be , contended thai the rulo that applied to a clause of a Bill did not apply to an item , on the Estimates. ,Ho had not been able v to find a single mstanco where any item " ' -which'had been struck off tho general Estimates was reinstated in the bupple- , mentary Estimates. The proper course to adopti in 'such a case was to have re- - committed tho general Estimates Bourmot had the following to say "It is an ancient rule of Parliament that no quesi ( faon or motion can regularly bo offered r -. if it is 'substantially tho samo with one ' on which tb» judgment of the House has '• already been expressed during tho current session. The old rule of Parliament reads: That a question being once made ' earned in tho affirmative or nega- . favo cannot be questioned again, trap must iS stand as a judgment of the House. Un--1 less such a rule were m existence the f time of .the House would bo constantly frittered away in the discussion of mo- ' ttions'of tho same nafalre, and tho most decisions would bo sompJtunes arrived at in tho course of the * same'session. Consequently, if a question , or Bill is rejected, in tho Senate or Comj mons it .cannot bo, regularly revived in 1 the samo House during tho current 6es- * sion.". * ~ ,1 '„ , ' Not a Matter 6f Urgency. « There' was .an'instance/(which was, * lowever, not parallel) where a reduced sum hsid been placed on the Supplementary Estimates after tho full item on tho '" 1 general Estimates had been rejected. In -. connection with his point that tho item was not a proper one to be put on the '< Supplementary Estimates, he would quote 1 from May at pago ,552, whero it was stated „"tnat a Estimate * may i bo presented either 'for a further grant to a service already sanctioned by j Parliament, in addition to tho sum already demanded for tho current financial year, or for a grant caused by a fresh '.occasion for expendituie that has arisen , sinon tho presentation' of the sessional Estimates, such as expenditure newly lmv posed upon the execuhvo government by , statute, pt to meet the cpst created by • u an unexpected emergency, such as an i immediate addition to an existing service * j or tho purchase of land or of a r work oi ttt,"",, ' ' , Hon. E. WK&azia: It includes "emergency." Mr. Massey. But this is not an em>crgoucy j {Mr. MTCenzie- Yes/it is. ■ 1.1 Eesnmipg, Mr. Massey said that thero -, was one parallel caso which he wished to tfuota. In 1890 Mr. Gpldio mpved a motion to the effect that the Government ■was deserving of grave, censure owing to / the--"fact-.thai it had reinstated on tho ' Supplementary Estimates items which 'had been dealt with when the general > Estimates were under consideration. 1 Sir Joseph. But that was in a period .. oi retrenchment. Mr. Massey This is a period of re- ' trenchment, but it certainly does not .<J look like it. ~ 1. What Mr. Battance Said. , Upon the occasion in question, Mr. # ,' Massey continued, Mr'. Ballance said that J tho motion appeared to him to bo a vote ' of no-conhdenco "based on what ho believed to bo an infraction of a well- !, understood constitutional rulo " Mr. BalU lance could never havo thought that-«in i, future years the party to which he belongttl guilty of breaking the samrt rule.. When his attention was ' drawn to tho position, Mr Mitchelson, the Acting-Premier, i,aid that the Government recognised thit the constitutional < course would havo boon to have moved "* to reconinut, N and it did not intend to movo them. He (the speaker) would liko \ to 1 know whether tho Prune M'mstcr 1 would follow tho constitutional course in , this instance. ' ' Sir Joseph- Will you support tho item in that caso? , JMr. Massey. Oh, that is not tho cpies- - ton., ' ; , The Prime Minister Replies. > >' ' The ' Prime Minister (Sir ' Joseph t . .-'Ward) Baid that in the caso relating to ,/,*n amendment to the Land for Suttle- , ments Bill, quoted by Mr. Massey, both * /v the Chairman of Committees and ' the T Speaker taled against Mi. Massey Massej No, thoy were both with I tie Tho Prime Minister doesn't under--vStand at all. If they ruled m tho same tjway now, it would bo in my favour. It The Prime Minister said that both the * 'authorities pf tho Houso were against Mr. Massey's attempt to get round the , forms of the House on that occasion, and ho (the Prune Minister) was quite prepared to accept tho position. The' course he should have followed was clear pn reference to Clause 20J df the rules \of procedure in Committee of tho whole, , which stated that when a clajse was < (struck out lb might be restored on ro'committol. Hence, when the Leader of • ' the Opposition quoted that case, he was l', simply asking the Speaker to reverso his , decision. \ Mr. Massey I am asking him to stand j j, try his former decision. Prime Minister Pleads Emergency. Tho Pnmo Minister referred to Mr ' Massey's quotation from May relating, to putting item 3 on tho Supplomentarj Estimates in cases of emoigcnov, and proceeded to argue that the ca«e under - discussion was an emorgoncv 'The item of £100 for a financial advisor was for a eeimce which had been authorised by Parliament in 1908 OD, and in the JiPrt ' session of this yoar Ihe liability up to , December * 1, he had now ascertained, ' va3 £)81 Ut sd. When the House struck out—not reduced as an indicition * of its opinion—but struck out tho whole rote, that action would prevent the Government giving effect to an engagement

i; :wh'ioh' v/the;::''Eouse■ ••'::■ had.■'.'■;■ authorised." ! ■''wasVin6t;^ , h6V;did'' ; 'nbt'':know :: .what', : *wns: "Mr; Massey:6lt::was'.,no. emergency. ',- ; {"The'-v.Prime.-sMinister,: {Was .'-jhis , cbuni 'try 'to repudiate a liability?.;':';:: { ■,;■.-'. ■; •';'■ Mr;;:'Massey:.v-WJio'fa'Sked 'yo'u'j.to-ropu- ;: 'diatoV , iff*" : ''-7\;'<?j;. ! , ; ;' r:f.Tho'Primd'''MinisterfsThfrjlion. gentlcf ;man, Jtnqws {that, .if. the;vote• ■. was. struck' i; ibufcitliercliivould- be ; no' mbnoy to (meet'- /. {tho-liabilityls;' :';,C ;^'••■;: : '.'.'■.' ';. j"VMr.;. ; Massey.: -Why;; did you notcome. to { -us meoting the ; liability ?';■: :":"jv-: Vrfftf :■'.:<:' '•' ■-. ':■:■;,-{;: ; L ; The,.Prime'.'Minister:'!said that ' ,wheii < j-tho:'.-cB4OO .was-'strncfe but; nni.emergoncy ! ;'was -created,vand/he- had'-110''■ .hesitation: :, {thatvthb' ruling /ofr'-May'would support (■ :th'e; course he!had ? 'He.had-fel-, i! {lbwedhWhat'SMr^Massey'had isaid'-about' j :M. incidoht.concerning ietrenehnient-un- . dor. thb Atkinson Government. The item ; (struck put by. the House:was for the sal-. ■■' fary; ;'of,\a, judge,{/and;-,the;Houso- would n'oti'recommit :the. : ,Estimates;;becauso -it' 'believed'.that ,it{was. ..contrary ..tb.;the,{law. ; ; bfitho land-rfor'anextrajiidgeto be ,op-; . jpqinfed^^;S ; : ':'■'-{-'{;{; !'■ Course." ) '■; ■ Massey;: i. Why.. did;, you jnpt : move. to ■. \ ;recbmmititheVEst^m'ates'^:.:;■ ; :r.i:r' ■ '< •.::Th6';';P,rime ■{Minister,':;*l j- followed :tho -. ; Supple-: s 'nielitary; {Eatiihates! i by'iGoveiSor's;■..Mes-; : /saiee.^: : ?Jii : .Tnlii%S;oi(/.the.-;tiasit'-'qf'--tha-iaadit/ • salavy;;,tho .Speaker.Vsaid.-ffiatithe' . !tesul^;b.eing':a.itiei ; ihe;Wbuld-:giye.'hisicast', |in , g.rfvqte.Ato' : ':confirm/,the ioppointmehtyof: ; |Mt;;'C&^'i;,aß;>.iSutoti^.'ConfoUOT^tan-. J . !eral,' l ' l sb;/iis'.tb';'give i.an,-;{opp{ortunity.; for; (reconsideration;. heboid '•; that; the i item', S invdis-: !p{ute{'could all, .but- ; (recommitting (-:: MrS'MasseyV/ Andy why 'did/yqu 'not? ; :. { |,<Th'ei(Piime;AMihistcr/:;,l..th:nk-.;,thiß;;is' ;^i^yi^;'; : '^a^ey3B2;-';:i;o': , i'stow:-;tKat:''.aii; iiteni; of • <833,941 on', the Estimates.'was 're-': Jduced/by.; .£21,000, > and: afterwards,'■ .£17,500. ,'carf. iriedi-'v-ZThei Prime 'Winisttf' ;f trrther'.: con-: 'Estimates; :'of >the {main: -Estimates' ;'to;*amend'-'them.,':'before ? put'jtihgytfief iteirts; ;in' the'-ApprbpHatibn. 'Bill.: ;The.' i point.: ; 'wai)/sb.'6lear ; would, !k:t'.r\i p< -:Or()er.;k ; ';:y :of: order; whether.'any/ amendment., 1 touch-;. jing;'i:a* : thati. was .'(.before,' Cbm> ; •rnitteej to: ' ,'ithe j-SgejUceriiwithottt ■ »theHGojnmitteetbf:;Snpply. fev}"?. '' ■:w^ther:'it:.w;as..icbmpetent ( ifbi\'thovßquso; | -to' reinstafa. an^:item"'.'on,'the;- Estimates': ; witlK)nt having.; the.; Estimates '?; recom- : .way.'';.:.;; SvThe:;Prime''.Minister, said ..Mr. Massey ;had«!bverlookedi.the: fact that■ Sir -John .. ; Hall -.^hadv.;done^^'exactly;. : .what ;';,Ma (the ' 'Prime^MihisterJ^hadj.done.;-: '/'■■ ":'-;■;■'"';'-. "■/.The:Speaker .said that;'the :point raised . ;lry;the\Minietef;for Eailways was as.to |i:'wheffieir 'a;.ppint : ;of:'order^^could be raised; ; ''wili : :':' , reg'aroVt».ian :^itSni;,'thJait: the.Cbm-': \ jmitteeofiSupply was.considering. ..The; ! :m;otion'ithat;.was'.: /the House . ■.was' ; ,,thit. heffdb snow /leave' the .'.'chair', '■% that'Vthe I;Bouse;",; might.'■ .go; '. ';into -|Co'mmitiee".''(if .'Supply./and it; had'..'to be ' "detennined.'.whether'.'thflr© was anything;in^:that:?. motJonvthat-would \ prervent ihim . .frbin.'putting;-,, such 1 . a;i.'motion';to :the. /House. y.i'He.vWas' ■ of •'opinidn'-. that; there Sras';not,;;'£hat';it : 'was..impossible; for: hiin .ito';lobk : .ai'ih© Estimates .attached to>the' - Governor's -Message/ which 'were now, in l-oharro: -of: 'andrihad laeen preferred-: by'Jthfl. House'fc. the'.Committee.;bf.;Supply;and,v>therefore,: ; ,- ;raised'by. , would have in the! ; .nrst::instance'.toy;be':;cbnMdered.aid: dealt; swith -by .the^Chairman■':b£ ..Committees. -. :i Ho'. miist," : therefore/' rule :'that.the ;:point :. l "bf ' .•Eailways'. ; ..preTOhtea' Min"','fT^>m'giyrngva\ J ,:the' : main! question .subinitted. ".' by":'Mt;;:MasseyV,-:If ,-thero'was any'-item; .' 'pnVtfcSTSupplenientary Estimates' .which,. .( iu'jitherf.bpinibnj.of any member',: was-in ; ;violatiC'n.:.o£,.the,rS,tanding..Orders,';::cus- .: usageß,', he. could;raise the ques- .; tion Supply. ,;'..:.;:■ ;^\The;:.Prim : e : MinisteV'i''p%ill move; when- ,■ !w 4 ' Tepert prp- / ■gressj'iio.'.as ; to.;'get;a ruling;.;- -•;:■; '.;,..'.; ! |' ; .: ■Js^'J7h : en'.' , ihV.\Hct^''Sweiit, into oCmnmittee' j of'•Snpply,;?;,i^'4.v^:^''ix':''■ ; '^■^..;?'■^ il yv ':■ ■i^.Mf.'.vMassev,'-by. the; v 'Prifee". ; Minister,'^;raiseu;'.;the ''question;;, item which'.'had been; struck. ( pffjlthe' generil':.'Estimateß■'■■cbnld -be re'?instited • 'on ii-the'• Supplementary..-EstiT - mates,'-and ;(2)..-whether:;the itm;-,came; j ; within'the.scope v o'r pnipbses. for which ; ; f pMvisibn,'might. : po''made;in, ; the;Supple-: ,j ;mentary:;Estimatesi ; '.''':-':^:: ; that;the;vote could . be .reinstated, ? in ; the way-.suggested by; .' 'Mri!''Massey,' -'.viz.'; r,by.-.'recommittal;: ; He - was - "also ..of opinion:: that the . 'adopted''by "the:. Prime' -Minister; might; ■' also, beJadopted.' , in'the ; ;w<irdß: ; u6ed by.« ( -May, wheTeihe' 7 said'that, a STrpplementary ; Estimate ; might-be' presented. for. a grant > ■ 'caused ;'<by.' fresh\;occasion;'-. for ;. expendi- ] •ture that.:had arisen- since, the ; .presen- ,| itatioh- Estimates. ;. It; 'seemedto'him'tnat the.'Primo Minister. \ was -e'nfitledVto''. take the - course-which ~ he .:had:tadopted,: because -, the !,Supplemen* . itary'.Estimates. were; only, a continuation , \ .of:the:main..Estimates. .As'to whether the: , item- cam'e:' : within' ;:the:Wscope; ..of .the ( Supplementary "Estimates, ,he would Tule ~ that.the ii'jein was'ah appropriation which; ] must;be<made'by,,way:.of; the' Estimates,: , "seeiiig'that.'.it .was'iiot;a..statutory.grant: s ?.■ As- had--beeh- iagreed;upon,' the Prune, ; •Minister • than moved'to-report' progress :, in order; that' the; Speakers .-ruling might , betaken;on ; the; points;raised.; :;.: - b ;;:C . j .<^ ; : =4:■ ;.->■; sa--.-J.i; RuJ i'y'-;'■'-■>'"•-V;'-;•' V-l i STtospeaker.said that:whenewrihe' had; ') :been;''called, : .npph tp; : rule:in', regard;.to" < any 'matter, on "which' there'was.no, distinct; rulihgv.or,, practice laid .down, he ' had "always-endeavpuredi'tolrule: in such' J av.way'to.onlargeUhe powers of members . and inthat'eipressiqh lemust, of course,; ' include-members'-of the-Executive.':,ln- .3 'Cusliing'B'':Xaw:and','.Practicb;bf ■Eegisla-.-fee :Assemblies;,:he'- found: the 'following; . .pertinentiremarks: "It is a rule m parliamentary: practice' that'. no question : pr tien can'regularly:b'e.effered upen :which. , the judgmeht of the House has been ex-; .pressed .duriiig 'the .current-session. This ■■' -rule-is essential'ih .order, .to avoid pbntra-i ■ dictbry- docisioiis to 'pfeveht surprises -and;, i to".afford'.v'proper ■.oppbrtuiity; for .deter- - mining qiiestions.^s. they .severally, arise.; . It-iisequally'.esseiitial.Jhowever, .that the, . aiscretion-'o£-the';'House.'should .not be so ; ( ■far .confined bywitsrulesj.of '.'proceeding; .-, :as to subject'its: votes to.irrevocable'error, j ori.to'-,pfevent. ; :it:fr(na.:;changing- its'de-; j ;tei!muiationlwheh'such, ;change is;clearly •' ( •proper ;• and ■"necessary.''-:'. '.'/..■'-•"".,• While' j thb rule above alluded'to is recognised as ■ :a" general:one : it .:a(U I »its.:;of'such. eicep- 1 tions, and is .applied: in-'Such a. manner. .; that the ;dbcretioh>:of., the -.Assembly; is < i'ot thereby -unnecessarily, restricted." 7lt .. was .admitted)i-'by.':the ' 'Leader-of the ; Opposition"andiother.menlbe.rs thfitithere. ; 'was.no';distinct .rulihg;- v :or;.-precedent; ( to guide.'a rulingiasto whether the; item iii: :the'' : Supplementary it 1 :had'also'beehi: admitted and :. properly .:■.. ■ruled -by-ithe;'Chairman 'M .... Committees .' that one method.'. of .procedure - that had. ; frequently:been-adbpted;wh'on-reconsider- .; ing 'a'vote''that-had been- come to";was .', ■ihat ; whon;the::vbto ivas;submitted'to''tho' ; HOuse; for- confirmation it; was .'open for, .■ 'any: member - to move .[.that; it be - -re- ; reronsideration. ..-;'■-■;:: ,'■ i;-.;>;';i No: Direct Precedsnt. i; : -;, • lioWhctherjitJ^asithei.most:;convenient; ': method;.W'as hot;for him.:to.say) In ,the, ■.} cast ■ uridor; notice-tho lEiecutive thoughtfit.'.to -advise :iiis-Excellency to: replace ; ihe'ivbte' -iti-::- question, ;'on ■:. the Supple-.: :• mehtary -Estimate's,-'ami/sent -down .-.a' .Grpvbrnor's''-Message recommending;' that 'this item' should')bo- passed. This.message ; iroebmmerided! certain .expenditure through Committee: b(j; Supply,-'which-were.roally .; thb 'foundations.-,of - the 'Appropriation . :Bill.' -His'r : they.were ,the: foundations- for - the-;Bill,',he'.considered-'that: during, the ; stago.'-of; proceedings that ; taken,, '.prior..to the. introduction- of the Bill, it '-was.pp6n for-'the'-Geverhmont::to.'intro-Tduco';an' -itom' for ;rcWnsidefation in the ; ■manner .in which'.; -dbho. Al- ; ,though',.thero';was' no direct; precedent in' :;support';of.-thatiruling,".there'.w'asii'pre- '! 'cedent iqubted-.by i-Sir I ,Joseph. Warclitbat- i ;went ihsthat.direction. 1 In 1880 thei'e.was; ■a railways-vote'-for' for ...the . iNobbn-Greymbutli;: .railway;':; The - late ; iMr.' 'Pitt-::-:moved:'.; 'that the, : item •"£33,911 for-harbour '.works bo reduced' by 1.fi!1,000,'. and.,: the'reduction: was carried : by. 22, votes... to ,21..: When; the. Supplemen-" ; 'tory .Estimatos wore) brought ; down :; a . vSe of ■ £tWoO':appeared, for the 'bum

:" purpose'.':Although;an attempt was made; ; by Mr. Pitt to have it reduced by .£12,000 thb'vote'.was carried. It might be said that it was ; not a: parallel caso, bc»uso ; the total amount struck off. was : not reinstated, but: if . a Supplementary -. Estimate couldbe dealtwitn in part it could be dealt;with as a.whole. ' , ; ' Similari Position:had not Arisen at Home. .' Therefore,' he must comb to tho conclusion :that, the decision of the Chairman of - Committees in", ruling: that the vote. , had been properly put before the. House was -correct.' .With :TCgard', to the case, quoted' by-'Mr. Massey,.;where Mr. Bal-, ; lance and. other members challenged ' a proposal'to.Toinstate votes, although the point was discussed: it wa9. never submits . ,ted;to the Speaker.' Because tho votes ■ wore-withdrawn' in/that - particular. : form it could not be taken as' a precedent to guide; him , in altering the opinion at, which'ho: had arrived; It seemed:to.him . that the .method adopted, by the Prime Minister was,more convenient than to move for a recommittal of.-the vote,' seeing ■;that it saved a prolongation of the deliate, which was a great thing to conr: sider.. (Laughter;) On the question as to whether the; item, should' appear in' the ' .Supplementary Estimates,'the.-definition ' quoted' did not include a similar in- ' .stance because* the 'Government of the • 01d:Country: did-noti seem to have taken r :a\similar. step to what the 'New Zealand, Government; had -done,- and if .it had it iwpuld; have "appeared among- the'; in- '• stances. Secticn 118 :of the Standing Orders had to.be read in the light of what ■he had.quotcd'from Gushing. The: Chairman of' Committees was therefore cbr- ! irect;-;.;".'-..:, :;:-;,:,..:i-;i.; ■'.".:,.„■, :.:.';. ;i;When .the'VHouse-resumed,its sittings ;in-Committee; on the "proposal that the :vote;should:be reduced by £3Si,-\--':- • - Mr.":Herries. (Taurariga)'; declared .that . the ..statement by ■.:the .Prime. Minister that; a. financial adviser ..was required was';; fallacious. ; • According:.' to ,: remarks inthe Budget on; the financial operations,: it would seem' that all.-the' credit'was dne'-to . the. Prime Minister.'- If any, of thoioredit were ,due;;to Mr..'Eeeves, .why :ivas;,.it'.r-.'not';'.given'?,;.The position'■■'must be a; . sinecure,; .because 'the'..'inscription .of;loans' was'.done, by,,the :Bank, ofvEng-. ilahd,. and "the'flotation of all, loans had 'accprding.to.tho Prime Minister been ariranged for'isome'years .ahead. • ". ' iHave -to;,Walk'-'Fifteen'.'-Miles/ : : ; The Prime::Mini6ter.said that the most linvenilo' member could' delay' the House as Mr.:Massey was doing.; He would re-peat-that; he 'was' prepared -that there should be ho commitment after June, so •that'the vot»'might ..be reconsidered. If :all;the.divisions proposed were taken,'.'it, 'wbuldimean that members would have to 'walk '15' miles.;. He. would -not. mind, be-, ■cause /perhaps .'there -was; not a ..better •walker' in the '.House. (Laughter.) '■ ''.Mr..Massey.:";iNot.-;a'...better.'runner sometimes.-' '■'.'••;■£.'"■'' V''..:' : .;' ;■ " ,;;:::'.■ ; The. Prinie' Minister;: (resuming), said,; in/reply; to Mr. Herries,. that'■,the ißankof England, had nothing to do with the '■employment of. brokers, with the 'giving ■of .advice as ,'tp' tho .'state 'of :the, market, etc.'-.'■ That the financial adviser—and :,of, the -loan: agents..' ;■' Mr;:.';Massey' said: that the vote was a 'gratuity.; : to::Mr. Eeeves,: and'- was given' not ';because ; he; was likely;;to; 'earn• the .amount.:; When' the-'item-.was.' put on the Estimates - briginally,' nobody 1 except - the , Ministers know'TCho had.been, appointed to' the'positibn. "Including the pairs,'.6o -members had 'taken part -in; the previous vote on:the>item; -He: had offered tp: cpneeht. to -. a reduction »by £1 as - an ; indicatiph that the Government did.not,intendto .go; away'from .thei; previous' decision.; -No' objection/wpuldbe raised'if the ;£4OO was:te ; ;be'used: only.; for .paying: Mr. Peeves.':.Would-he;agree to -that? . If was needed;to:'meet,the expenses:of Mr'-'Eeeves 1 he;-would '.agree to it. '■■•, i.iSir;- Joseph:,lt iis; not a'-question;..of i'money; it. is > personal: matter.: .■/'..;.,': -.(Mr.,- Massey: 1.. have' '-n.oi/.eaid,' a '-.word Against -Mr. Reeyes-ivhen his:, votes/ .have .'bce'n'-;'ui^der / ;'diß«nssi6ni,.-.'',',-'\ v ''7v.-';',. ; ■'I ' ;: ::Whpiishai( "Beittie Masto«?;i " ■ Eesuming,. Mr. -M&ssey ■:said that the Prime Minister had.■ iefnsed,..'to': hold a icbnference.';' It-'had.'come'.'tovbe a'.question: as ..to'.:whether -Parliament;;or tho Executive, should be'the'masters. - '-. i-Tho Hon/EV MiKenzio: Xeave it; to a :vote."-'-''.; v:-V.v::' J : i:i-';V , '"::'V;a;; '■ :,: ; i'.- ':'. Mr.: Massey :',''lf ..the;; vote'{'on Decembpr 3, had {gone '.against me ■; it would never ; have, been heard of.iagain.!,; When-; Lord;. Rosobery^s, Government was- defeated: oh a similar kind:: of {vote, it ' immediately resigned. Apparently the Prime Minister .wanted-to; get'back, on the previous decision arrived; at. .Not ' for''ten'years: has so much interest been' evinced in, any question. Prom all parts of the' Dominion,.-he had'{received; tele-, grams."approving :{.of {.his{. action.; The .Opposition--'might, :be. ..overborne: ;by numbers, but it had.tho country behind' it.- Why. .only that idayi 200,{people' had come.up to;the House to give their support:to/his'.party.'' '■'{'': ;.■•-..-;■:•'"- ' Sir':Joseph: They.-attempted to storm. Parliament.on(a previous pecasicn.- ,-.'• .'■■ -{{Mr.-Massey:"lt would:be well fer:you not to'refer to what; took place on that "occasiori;.{'{:{'-':.:•■{;■;{{ '."•■■;.'•■-:■■ : -■-'":-•.■: ;:,The Prime Minister' said that if. he were il'betting man {he would'bet 3 to 1 that he'.had received double as many, telegrams to' the 'opposite'effect;." i; ■' ,;:. , Mr. - Massey:','.., I • -will: ; . take : it; up.(Laughter.) '." : "i':;{ ''". - '-.■:.-,' Eesuming, Sir Joseph said that the 200 Seople who had,:ccine {up to. tho House id so out of; sympathy.for members who were being unnecessarily'delayed. Apparently, .-.whenever..-Mr. .Massey saw a. man with a hat oh ho thpughtne-was one of. his supporters. ■ ■.:::■;.. '-'■ : Mr.:Masseyr,lf:l;see„a man I make sure'-ho is. v.'.-',--"-V ;■'{:'',: -Vv. ■' "''- 1 --''-"; i {Sir Joseph said that there was: only bne ; person who directed the loan negotiations and who wasiconsulted on >everything and;; that .was .the; {Minister for. Finance, who-alohe:was i responsible; :,He went-on to quote; the,cost of various {loans. in : Mr. Eeeycs's time, as-compared- with the cost of others ;ih the' '. time of:' former : financial. advisers.'•' The difference was, he said, all in: favour of. the period during which Mr. Eeeves 'had occupied the position.,'-: As-a, matter ( of fact;., for twentyfive years past, the Government had always .had a financial adviser.' /When- Mr. Eeoves. was appointed High (Commissioner he had the,assistance of a .financial. ad-{ visorl Surely it was not fair to deprive a new, High Commissioner of; an adviser in those matters. 'Summed up,{it was; a ■personal matter to- a great extent. When Mr.. Eeeves-: was a Minister _he' ; was strongly:'opposed'by: the Opposition/:'', :' Mr.;; Massey:{- The - strongest opponent Of Mr. {-Eeoves is 'behind you. -.{': ','; *'-. Mr. Allen (Bruce)-said. that if there was;any .persenal feeling ;,it-. had ibeen imparted into:the matter.by members on tho'Government-sidc'-The figures which the Prime' Minister had'quoted with tcference,{to, the{,cost_of, loans' were {value-!'. ; less, -'as he■ had. given; the{prices br.'.thti state: of the market at'the'ftime. Thero had not been:a financial.adviser since 18Sfi; -{:::.'.:{"'{"'-'• '{."-v .- ■'■•.■r: ■';', : v . '■ 'Sir Joseph ::.Tes,{ there has.' , ■ Mr.' Allen:; : But I saythcre has not. The'amonhts'which you cited werb given :for other'services. .::.';.{. '{ ';"■"; {.Continuing,; Mr. Allen asked the Prime. ' Minister if he were in earnest, not to defy the.wiil of {tho Houso te write pppositb . tho. vote the ' word : /liability,".. : which would show that the vote had come: to an end. Wns he prepared to. .agree to -do that? Any' vote that'was permanent -should be ;provided .for by 'Act of {Parliament' {,;.;{.,-; {•The. Rush. V ;,: The 'Prime Minister ''said-:, the - Supplementary Estimates of 1808-9 -were,circulated at... 3 : a.ni. The discussion .commenced at 10.'. him; and finished at midnight. - That was time- enough {for members to see what was in ;them. Tho selfgovorhihg. colonies' were. not allowed to ■ ,'emplpy,Crown; agents fpr.lpan. purposes, "ft was -for- that reason' that they ap r pointed, a financial advisor. He did not {want:to delay, the taking: of the.39l divisions."' 'Tjbtus go on taking them until about 3 o'clock, in theVmorning, and then come' back to : mbrrbw afternppn and take •'some {'more".';' {; :::{,':' >:,'■'.,'■'{'-, ■ { •'{'Mr. ..Massey said "the -'.Supplementary : Estimates of 1908-9 were handed round to a.sleepy. House'at 3 a.m., and the House then-adjourned.. until \lO { ajn.; The Quackery Prevention Bill was.then taken,' and' it was hot until. the afternoon that the {debate on tho Estimates was begun;' - The Supplementary; Estimates, were not properly considered,' and' - had not been for many years.: This; year, however, they would bo .more'-fully cpnsidered, , apart; from thociteni'now. under, discus- . 'sion/i and'.there- would be a number; of divisions.-:" :: :; -{.-■;;::;::;{- .V,. :: -: - ~ !•Tho Prime, Minister quoted a return to show- that the; hours.'of sitting had hot been "excessive'this session, as. compared jwith'prpvious..sessions.':-What: had been said about business being driven'through the Houso was not justified. The Government did not mind how closely He

! Supplementary Estimates were criticised, ) but this taking of 399 divisions on one I item was a most ridiculous thing'. Why They Reverse.Their Votes. [ Mr. G. W. Bussell (Avon) said the original vote on the item, was affected by personal feeling. Members were influenced :by allegations" of discourtesy on the'part of the ex-High Commissioner. ■ Ho (Mr. Russell) and other members i voted under a misapprehension, as they ' did not know that most of the money 1 was already paid or liable to be paid. ' /Was the Government to be asked now to • put the .money under "unauthorised ex; 1 penditure"? Had the Government done 1 that, there would have been a tremendous ' outcry on the port of the Opposition. He 1 had come back deliberately with the ob--1 ject of recasting,his vote on this ques- [ tion. He understood that the .Prime ' Minister had-undertaken to give Mr. ■ Reeves six. months' notice of the termina--1 tibn of his appointment, 1 ..Voices:.,Has he? /■ Mr. Massey: If so, I will accept that '. right.'away. . Mr. Rilssell: The Prime Minister said '. that the House would be clear to give a 1 direct vote on', the question when it meets next June. If ton. members are not satisfied with that; what will satisfy them? And what are we fighting about? " :'; Mr. C. H. Poole (Auckland West) said ' that when he. voted for striking, out the ..£4OO, on the main Estimates, he had in ' mind the hardships of -retrenched Civil Servants in this countryj and the criticism of ! the" London office in respect of over-staffing. He was, however,/prepared !to; accept the Prime Minister's statement as.to the'liability incurred, and have the . position reviewed in the House next session. _Wheh o scheme of retrenchment was going on, one.6hould'not be favoured above another. : . .'Taking a Una of His Own, : Mr. E. H.Clark : (Chalmers)' said he was one of those who voted for striking out the item on the >main Estimates, but ho 'did not then understand that the money was owing. -He was going to vote against the... Opposition 393 times if the amendments "were to be. moved, but on the :394th amendment (to reduce .the "vote ;bj i£l''' he would vote \ with the Opposition as.ij a further indication : that .the vote should not } be continued, and that Mr. Reeves should be/wiped out so far as any position connected with the Dominion ; was concerned.,■ ■..■'■ ■'-' ■.;"■ Mr. E. Newman (Manawatu) said there 'was. a■":great,principle behind' the vote. Was the Executive or the Parlia- ': ment 'to have the i ;higher authority? The.' High Commissioner's; office was. a house of. refuge for retrenched, heads of • Departments. Dr. Mason : was there at .£9oo'a year.:. Mr. Donne and Mr. Hamer were, also-there. Ho believed ;Mr. : Reeves was.retained as .financial adviser because the Government■', thought that Mr. HallJones, •., on account of his' inexperionce, would- require;-advice.'.'Mr. .Reeves was entitled -to everything:- that was .due to him, but Parliament had expressed its will.'and its will■shouldVibe 'carried out,'; 1 , .Mr.Taylor on Party Spirit ; ; ■Mr. T.!E. Taylor (Christchurch North) said ho "was.'not; in-the House when'the original vote was taken, but what' had occurred - during. the last five days', was ■calculated to drive /any reasonable: man to, support the' Government, A great deal of time had been 'wasted over , a small: matter.'' It .was an illustration 'of the evils of the party system. A national issue had' largely through the action of the Opposition, into a,petty party .-', squabble. i-Mr..''.' Taylor ... went on to attack; "the, Conservative press," .which he .described as "the meanest of poUti'car/scavengers." They (nursed inexperienced men who were oh thoir side of -the'.House,' and sought to convey-vthe impression that such men could save the country if they ; had. the- chance, but they .did. not give" fair. treatment to tried public men, 'who ■■■' were doing -thoir Tiest.. for .the country. If he (Werein power, ; he. would be inclined to say, "If they. will.have party'they shall have it," and, he would distribute the spoils of office among his supporters. .Voices:. It's' done'.now. ,:.., ; ■'' Mr. Taylors; No;:it's..not done. riow. The Conservative/press of the country would. have itself.' to'. thank if • they had a large„measure ;6f ..Tammany in this country':in'a few 'yeare' time. ...This' little quarrel had cost .the country quite J2400, '/Hejdid not see thatu there .was a .ques--tion/'-of principle; : involved. .-■ It , was merely a -question .of.' whether the' item, should have. been reintroduced in one way or'in'another way." Ho would vote.to' discharge:the liabilitry. ■:." •■'.'■' 'Mr. Herdman (Wellington .North) asked, "Have we-any assurance that tho office, will .be., abolished? ,If' things remained: as ! they were. now, • the . ,£4OO would -appear on; the Estimates again next session, and- some members might vote to 'eliminatevit, and: then vote-to reinstate" it,.', on the,. ground • that. a liability/'must" be discharged." .'. 'About ;a. Telegram. -.-" ; The Prime Minister : .'said the. last speaker had; said //the\ Opposition was prepared'to; vote for the. discharge of all the liability due : to' Mr.; Beeves. If so,' how d|d they; account for, them voting • to strike .'out.' .And : why did the Leader' of the Opposition and . the member' for 'Bruce try, that afternoon, to prevent the' matter being reconsidered?-- It- was very largely personal,, so far; as the ex-High: Commissioner was concerned.. ;The Prime' Minister .then..referred in tones; of .great: annoyance to ; a telegram - sent out; by the correspondent • , ofthe.Christchurch/'PTessj", and "Otago Daily, Times," stating",that' the Govern:' ment /party was: not satisfied /with his management of. the House : this session., He ;stated< that no such- thing had come' from his,'.side of the House, and that'• the /message'had '.been telegraphed' in the interest of the Leader of the Opposition'; ;/,-;;v/,. ... /\ v.. ..-;•', . ';■;. ':■. Mr Hemes/Unconvinced,;/ ' >; "."Mr;- Hemes (Tauranga) held that former; financial,.' advisers : ' had-''.' been ••- much* more successful/than- Mr.,' Reeves,; He'quoted' figures, relating to .the -flotation uf, recent, loans.' These, he contended, did'not prove that the late/ High Commissioner was .such-a great, financier' as: it was sought to be made out. For-instance, if: tenders had been called'for the 1901 loan it would, have realised a much higher rate. : '/'-.';',./'";; '■-■■' :.' ! '.'. J .''.■• Mr. Buchanan , (Wairarapa) declared that he was not in any way;ihfluenced by any .animus towards Mr. Reeves. On a previous occasion-ho had narrated an instance, of how..-a visitor from 'New Zealand 'had .;been told at .the High Com-, raissioner's; office that Mr.-.'.-Beeves'- was' not ; in,'but when the official saw that he was an M.H.E. he.told him that Mr. Reeves.; was' in.' J But. he had; been careful to; add that he. did not blame Mr.-Reeves in the matter, as every visitor from. New Zoalang(/to the office could not oxpect to find; Mr. Beeves.at .his. dfsposal. In supSort of his remarks,-he quoted from The iohinion : report of what he had.'said, during the-debate'in question. i 'Mr. Russell (Avon) ( said that he had not attributed personal dniraus to Mr. Buchanan.; .','.. >V .'■<;,/■.,. v .'< ','■';.'' .'Mr. AHan: (Bruce)'- donied that, he wanted to; prevent, the Committee from reconsidering tho item; • Mr. G./M.; Thomson (Dunedin North) held that the Government was trying to re-establish a'position: in the High Commissioner's office which had been set -aside..-for the past or years'.- -If. the /High Commissioner was not competent to "look after the financial interests. of the Dominion the country had) not got the right man for /the position.' -;/';.v-::-A/'..y; ■/' ''■■;.. :-..'■■ ; v .iPress Commenls. Mr. Allen said if the House let this useless item go through. without making suto. that/tho appointment would bo discontinued "Widy would not be doing their duty. The "O.tago: Daily Times," referred to by. thoPrimo Minister, was an honest, fair, and free ~paper, and its correspondent was an honest, fair, and free man. Contrary to' a statement of. the Prime Minister, the office of financial adviser had,been discontinued, as stated by tho latb Mr. Soddoh,: after a vote similar to that in question had been struck out on tho motion' of-Mr. Larnach, who. was a Government supporter.. He would like to know who were the Crown agents, and tho 'stock and ./loan - agents, and what .they did ;and/ how much they were paid. What, was tho High Commis-1 sibnerpaid in regard to the raisbg of ■loans,; and also tKo Bank of England? The.cost of tho High Commissioner's office had greatly increased of late years. It was about "XSOOO a year extra. . Mr.B. A./Wright (Wellington South) said ho was surprised to hear somo of the most intelligent members saying that they had not understood this qnostion when it was previously beforl) the House. He was still unconvinced of the he/ssatj of ft financial adviser in Lon on.

Ho would like, to know what all tho different officials in London, did in connection with ; the flotation'of'a loon, and whether tho financial adviser had definite duties in tho matter. The Primo Minister had said that the merest tyro" could move 399 amendments :on ■ snch a vote as that. Ho would reply that it required no particular ability to put upon tho Supplementary Estimates on item that had been struck out.- Tho merest tyro could/ do that. If tho Government succeeded oh this occasion tho item would reappear on next year's Estimates, and if struck out would bo again placed on the Supplementary Estimates. A Dual Position. Mr. Hemes said the gentleman who held tho post of financial adviser was a director of tho National Bank, which' was a rival of tho Bank of New, Zealand •—the latter being .the official bank ot tho Dominion. Mr. Dive drew attention, to the. stato of the House, bat the Chairman counted apd said there wore more than twenty m'iSmbers present.' Mr." Herries, continuing, said the National Bank was as well managed as the Bank of Now Zealand, if not better. How was the financial adviser to adviso the High Commissioner? Was it to be expected that ho would • throw the interests of the National Bank aside? If ho was a director of a bank that did not do business in this country, it would be difficult, but the - position' of director of the National Bank shouldi bar him. Doubtless, it would: be 'impossible to' get a financial adviser in London who wa9 ■not a director of any bank, but if it was the Bank of England, or the London and Westminster, or some other that did not do business in New Zealand, :there could be no objection. Only one loan had been floated for New Zealand sinco tho financial adviser -was appointed, -and/credit for that had been taken by the Prime Minister.,. /■ ;.-_• Labour Support for Mr.; Massey. Mr. Massey said tho. debate' had not been' a Waste- of time, as a" good deal of information had come out; it had been shown that though. we had a Treasury Department and a Prime Minister who had been called a wizard of finance, a High Commissioner who had been Minister for Finance, stock and loan agents, and Crown agents, we paid commissions re-' gularly to the Bank of England,-and occasionally to the Bank of New Zealand, and yet we.had to give JS4OO a year, to an of ,the Prime Minister as financial adviser. It was true, as the Prime Minister. had. said, that he (Mr. Massey) had .voted- for tho appointment of. the late Sir Julius Vogel as financial adviser, but Sir -Julius nad spent the best years!of. his life in the service of the '.. colony,- and the vote was justifiable :as a gratuity. -It was hot so-in- the?case of Mr; Reeves. The fact that Mr. Reeves was a director of tho National Bank was a conclusive reason against his ■ appoint-' nient as financial adviser to' l the Government. A telegram from . the. Dominion exocutive of the : Trades and; Labour .Councils,- warmly;approving, of. his protest, Was read iby : Mr.. Massey. He said he ■ had received many similar messages. Mr. G. J. Anderson (Mataura) was ruled out of order by the Acting-Chair-man (Mr. G. W. Russell), when beginning ■to', reply. to , Mr. Taylor's remarks on newspapers..'.Proceeding, Mr. Anderson' saidi'he had in the past known '■" Mr. Beeves as a. literary expert, but nobody in: those days accused: him : of. being a financial expert. .; ■ i \ . „ ; Mr..,Buchanan said -that Mr! 'Reeves's experience sinco Mr. Anderson; knew him qualified him 'to be- a : 'financial .adviser, but the. Opposition was quite right in protesting..- against" the' ■; abuse .of . adding £ANI a'year to the expenses of tho High Commissioner's office for this purpose.: Motion to Report Progress. : At 1 a.m. Mr. Anderson (Mataura) ■moved. to - report progress. Some of the members had, he.said, had just had a r'opgh journey by sea, and wore badly' in need of a good night's; rest.',, ;'■■.. -.;. !■ Mr; Herries (Tauranga) said that he believed'a would be of value as it was quite possible the ; leaders of the respective parties' might be'- able to come to' an agreement on : tho point under'con- ; sidcration. Another-reason why the- debate should be discontinued for the time being' was • that at' that hour-, all -human beings—and members'.-of Parliament— iShould be, in bed. : (Laughter;)' There i.was another' reasonwhy the' Committee' should adjourn—and ; that was -that.most: members were in a somnolent state, and the atmosphere, of the! Chamber was oppressive.' .In. humorousYvein Mr..Herries then proceeded ■to deal 'seriatim with the reasons,why he.supposed the Government, would'not want progress'reported:* '■~..' -Thomotion to report, progress was lost' by 38 votes to 10. • It was then moved,;.to reduce the vote by i3M and the debate. proceeded. ■: : ..';■;■ (Left' sitting.). .' '''.-■'■; _