THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 692, 17 December 1909, Page 5

THE HOUSE.

; AN ALL-NIGHT; SITTING; V ; THE NATIVE LAND BILL. r-mputiwoßxs /.'amendment ■ bill; .; ': Speaking on/the motion -for committal of the Native Land Bill yesterday morniiig, • after The DdioNioii went to press, "... ■■ :Mr; GREENSIADE.. (Waikato) ;said- they had never had i a measure which would tend more towards '.the/free settlement-!of Native lands.' V '..:"'. ■ ../ .'• .:•,'"." *. , ' v.. '; ■'; ':'■ Mr; JENNINGS (Taumarunni)" thought 'that the Bill formed; a: distinct forward march. • TJie success of the' Bill' would .depend oh the administration, * particularly by the Maori Land Boards. /There,must bo,no further delay in .tlie utilisation ,b£ unoccupied Native lands. ,The ; ,Native;:Minister, had promised', on three occasions that .aißating Bill would be'brought down ..this' session, and there would' be'great dissatisfaction with "the further;, postponement of this, session. The Prime- Minister • and. Native' Minister, moreover, had both ■ promised that the_ Native, townships would be dealt with this sessi-on. Tho exigencies of time .would riot allow ) of this/: but; there would ■' bo • 6trong resentment and.:disappointment in. Tarannki and the -King.. Country at the postponement of this .matter.'■'-'. v : v '';'■/•-:■''-,•: ."■Mr, "PEAECE (Patea) condemned' the'"taiho'a" : policy -of the .;past in regard to Native lan'd.v' The; system! of Maori landlordism .was kbout'the.-worsf kind of landlordism, since it benefited nobody. The proposaLto;spend'half a'.year in the purchase of Native land was,a very-good one. Some<distinct.advance should be made as torthe form of tenure: in,' Native, townships. He, did.- not object to the Maori -.getting.'the 'benefit', of! : any. -increaso'in.'values. He was.sorry at the failure to ■ bring; down ;the-Native Land Eating .Bill this yeor, believing-.that the matter urgently required.' attention. '.'.The present .Bill, as. a ,whole,.was ; a good',one, ; and would mark a, distinct.' step:in:, advance on'.anything done/previously.' ■ """ .-.'■■'•''•.-" ■■'*'•'■>■'<■(■■•■ .'■'-'•:■.!,.-(■: ,■; ■.. Mr,,.E: ,W. SMITH ■; (Eangitikei) /believed that the; passing of the- Bill wonld mark a great. improyenient.in' the/Native land policy. He .had, ,however,,, to enter! a. pretest 1 at the ,failure'i,t6-;giyb lessees in Native townships: tho right to'make their sections; freehold. (Hear, 'hear))'''This p wdnld--havb' only been the,right thing to do. : It was also his opinion that the Land /Settlement 'Finance Bill should have beeji;.;appli«d ; ,' to sNativ'e' : land..; .'.'■..'"■<■ ; -Tho/House > then .went into Committee' on tlio-Native'Land and Public Works.Bills.

PUBLIC ; WORKS BILL. PROTESTS AGAINST, EXHAUSTION ' METHODS. On tho first clauso of the Public Works BUI, Mr. MASSET moved to report progress. "What rot'" cried soveral members. It wasn't rot, said Mr Massoy, who said he objected very strongly indeed to the attempt to forco tho House on longer. He had to be at a committee meeting with others at 9 o'clock in tho morning, and already it was nearly 130. What was tho use of going on liKo that? Ho was ready to como back after Christmas to finish up if necessary. Voices; "Wo all aro." Mr. Massoy Then what's tho use of our working now as wo aro doing? Thoy had dono a good day's work. \ member Don't you like tho Nativo Land Bill 8 Mr Massey This Bill is an advance on what wo have had It doesn't go nearly as far as I should like, and when it is m Committee I firoposo to move certain amendments. I should iko to 6ee it deal with tho Nativo townships and rating on Native lards. Tho Hon. E. M'KENSIE said that members were disposed to behavo as if it wero tho bo ginning of tho session. Tho work of tho country must bo done. Ho proposed that they should sit till tho Committee stages of the Public Works and Native Land Bills were disposed of. This suggestion was received with laughter. Tho motion to report progress was defeated by 31 votes to 23. As soon as tho result was announced Mr. Massey moved again to report progress. A division was taken with the samo result.

Question\of Compensation. ■■:■■ ' / -.: 'j ; ■There V.was -:some discussion '/on. ..Clause''; 2 which provides ..that surface soil, need not be taken; where.'tunnelling, or other underground !worlc, is'to. be /done. r ■'■■' Tho' Minister .stated . that theireal. meaning of the clause was; that where there was no' damage, no' compensation: should :bo':payable..-'> .-.;/■/; .-...-.■■ -.-,■ . Mr. DlVE>:(Egmont) moved to strike out the words. "or; other; underground work," fearing:. that, the: clause as !it stood would permit even'- of : a''coal-mine being) started on a property,without the necessity'..of acquiring the surface''soil.''/ '<■.!-''", '•',■''■'•''•' ". ! The MINiSTEE: said i tho clauso; was '.not in-. .tended to do any injury, to anyone. The Government: was always willing to pay for".-'any damage'done.!. :•: ..;-..'';>;.'•' : Mr. GUTHEIE;,(Oroua) tiiought the House should not pass; the clauso "till- a provision to that effect, was inserted. ~.:,/ .The 'MINISTEE said that provision- existed under: the Compensation Act. The. clause didnot apply to mining in any Shape or form, '.■'■' '' Mr. MALCOLM ■•.(Clntha) said .'.the Minister admitted that, it had not been necessary up to the present to buy tho surface rights. He wanted to know, then, what was the . necessity for the clause. , Mr. HINE. (Stratford) asied if: the /.Government .was going; in .for brickmalring. : The amendment Was defeated by 36 votes' to 21.?"•.:-:;..■;;;■■■ •' .','■:./ /. ; • .'!-'■:

Proceedings J'Becorning Farcical." , :'::,ilr. : --MASSET,. again' moved to report progress/ The prboocdings, •ho;said, were becoming.farcical..'■■: ';',:' ~'.'■ ■■'■-. ':- The motion was lost by 33 votes to 21.: •Mr.■ GUTHRIE, (Oroua) -moved at 2.15 a.m. that'-Clause' 2 bo deleted. '-'. ' : '.\ ■:■■■ -■'■•'The CHAIRMAN explained that that could not bo put as a motioui :■ ... ■Mr. Guthrie then moved an addition to the clauso providing- that for' the entry, removal of spoil, ■; and' all damago full would'be paid. -'.The 'MINISTER -said that was: already ..provided for'.by- Clauso. 35 of tbe principal Act. ■'..'. Mr. MASSEY doubted, whether ; that : clauso would refer to - the special cases under consideration.. .-■'.- ;■''-'. ■ Mr., GUTHRIE said that in viow.of .•' the Crown Suits Act it. was very necessary to ■ be explicit. - -'.:...' - ' : Tho amendment,was lost by 30.votes to 18. ..' Mr.' ALLEN at 2.30 a.m. moved to report pro-' gross. ' . '..; , ::;-.".- Mr. 'WRIGHT protested against legislation by exhaustion. (Government, members: ."Whoso fault is it?") .It was ithe fault-of ment mombors, who voted for postponcmeiit of the previous session/V a- . Mr. DIVl! (Egmont) said night after: night' there, bad been .about fifteen Government mem-1 bora away resting.: To work in relays.was not] .to.'play the .game, ■■•';;-;■.■-• :''-.- : . r '-. "'-■■■ 1

Tho PRIME MINISTER said it was the frcquent motions to report progress b> tho Opposition that bad bron delaying tho business. That was not playing the game, and if that was to bo continued no was prepared to 6it aU night. Thoy conld havo finished tho' Bill an' hour ago and gono home.

Playing the Game. ; Mr. MASSEY said tho sido that was not playing tho game was tho;sido that, by-post-poning tho session in Juno, and gross incom-. potency in managing the business this session, had got them into this mess. ' The Opposition had done everything possible to assist tho business. When the Prime Minister, was hindered, by his own party had gone'into the lobby with him." They wero propared to stay all'night, or come back after Christmas, if necessary. If the Primo Minister wanted trouble'he would not .have far.to look for it. The PRIME MINISTER denied that there had..been mismanagement of the business. If the Opposition persisted in blocking tho-busi-ness by continually moving to report progress when the majority was against them,- it was the. duty of the Governmeift to say they must sit on till the business was completed. ' "Mr. FRASER said 'there' was no incentivo to put this Bill- through, when Mr.- MTCenzio had stated, before the Prime Minister's entrance, that they would have to finish tho Native Lond Bill in Committee. Mr. M'Konzie: I said nothing of the kind. ■'.. Mr.- Fraser: Plenty of members heard it •A minority .had theiT rights, and they were not going to be driven, and bullied. Mr. MTCENZIE said his statement was that tho 'Public Works Bill should be finished in Committee, and that the Native Land Bill could have been finished in Committee if the afternoon had not been wasted. Mr. Fraser had stated what he knew to be contrary to fait; ••■■'.-' -" ■-■- '.'Mr. FRASER raised a point of order, and asked that these words should be taken down. The CHAIRMAN ruled that tho words must b9 withdrawn. '.' .' •-".'• Mr. 1 MICENZTJB withdrew the words. He declared that; the Opposition had been delaying -the. business all the evening.. '..- . .' Mr. M'LAREN - said ho- had understood Mr: MTienzie to say that thoy. must put tho Native Land Bill through. Mr. M'Konzie: I s said you : ought to put it through. . . Mr. M"*Laren said they would do the business in ohe-tweritioth of the timp'if they adjourned until, the morning. ~''-'

"Bullied and' Bounced." In the course of further argument, Mr. MASSEY said that on overy occasion he had advised. his' followers not to place themselves in a false position by taking up too mnch timo on any discussion. Mr. MTEenae had blocked the business when Mr. Herdman's name was on tho order paper. Ho had foreseen that they wouldbe bullied and bounced at the end of the session. Mr BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) asked how it was that he had quite understood Mr. Mlvenzic to . say that both Bills must bo put through. 'Tho "CHAIRMAN".said, that Mr MTTenzie's statement to tho contrary must bo accepted. Mr BUCHANAN said that Mr Massey had continually told his followers to expedite the business Mr THOMSON (Dunedin North) said it made his gorgo nso to be accused of obstructing business. If ho had ever appeared to do bo it was because Ministers had come down who could not givo particulars of tho Bills they were moving. "yho mobon to report progress was defeated,' on a division taken at 3 30 am., by 35 votes to 22. An amendment by Mr. Allen to. Clause 3 was defeated. Mr. MALCOLM (Clntha) then moved again to report progress. The motion was negatived by 35 votes to 23 . Mr. WRIGHT then moved that the Chairman leave the chair. Mr. DILLON. I hope the Minister will stick to tho Bill if ho waits till next month If s what I call "tommy rot," all this sort of thing. (Hear, hears, and laughter.) The motion was rejected by 37 votes to 17. Mr. HINE (Stratford) moved, at 110 am, to report progress. The CHAIRMAN, rulod that tho. motion was out of ordor, "as no progress has yet been made" (Laughter.) Admiring trie Dawn. A number of members then threw up tho windows to adtniro the dawn. A minor amendment by Mr. Allen to Clause * (3) was defeated on tho voices A discussion took place on Clause 13,' which provides that m certain cases the Governor may rau«o any road, bridge, or ferry to bo repairod> and tho cost of such work charged to tho local autnontv. The Minister agreed to striko out the clauso Tho Bill was then reported, with amendments, which wore agreed to immediately, and the measure was read a third time and passed The short title of tho Native Land Bill was agreed to without discussion, aid tho House rose at 6' ajn.

AFTERNOON SITTING. NEW BILLS INTRODUCED; When tho House resumed yesterday''- afternoon the amendments mado bv tho Legislative Council m tho Wollington Streets Empowering Bill were agreed to. Tho Mastcrton Trust Lands Exchange Bill and Wanganui Srhool Sites Bill were introduced by Governor's Messago, and read a first time and referred to committees. Tho following Bills were introduced and read a first timoi-Tramway Bill (Hon. R. MTfonzio), Rotoiti Validation Bill (Hon. R. M'Kenrie), King Country Licenses Bill (Right Hon.' §E, J; G - Ward), Whangarei Abattoirs Site Bill (Mr. Mander).

NATIVE LAND BILL. ' |DISau^SION;'IN^COMMITJEE.i r Discussion in Commitfeb on the Native Land Bill was commenced at 5 ,p.m. The Acarly clauses, which aro'.'mainly.-; of a consolidating nature, Were'-.put.' through' in a very • rapid mariner/';'.''' '■;•.■•■' ~.;■:--''' ."•;,■:■■ ':■■■":■.■■. Mr:; HERRIES,-at' Clause 16, suggested- that during .the ;recess the Minister, should obtain further .information us <to the';,expediency . of abolishing the'-Na'tive assessors. ' • Mr;. HEED, (Bay of lelandns) asked for a division , on' Clauso 42, which states that the Appellate Court shall be continued. .The clauso was.■ retained, hy, 54 votes to 4. An'.;amendment>to Clause' 64 by (Dunediri; South) to provide that the president of ■ a; District' Maori Land Board might 'be a Nativo7was:loston tbe'.voices. >'- ■■-■■:-"■■-,". ' Mr/.MASSEY'^objected ,' to;< Clause: 142, .'which provides ' that Native:.freehold or. customary land shall' not be , available : for; payment of debts. 1 .'•; ■■'■■'■ • The MINISTER said- the protection was very: necessary,' for traders,; knowing that■ Natives held land,-had in the past frequently.given them.'undue-credit.'; Tho Hon. JAMES CARROLL said that if a. storekeeper had ..an account, with a Nativo ho could easily tako steps while the latter was alive, to: havo. his. debt recognised- and' the restrictionremov.cd. ■■'■' ..-"-.'■' :■■ . The Hon: A-fT.'NGATA'''6aid'these provisions; had.' been : included in view* of the im- : providence of- the. ayerage ; ;Native.. .Clause 142 would' "prevent storekeepers .giving' unlimited credit to Maoris/ ■ ; Mr. PEARCB- (Patea) thought Clause 142 was ; a, most, iniquitous ..p'rovision. ' >•■ ~. ■--.- "Tho Coddling .'Process." '; '' ;,Mr. MASSEY objected that it gave an -unfaif advantage to the Maori,, which was not to his -interest. The '"coddling" process was demoralising to the Native. He moved an amendment to the effect that Native freehold land or customary land should not ho' available for payment of debts "unless, the .Court after; inquiry, certifies. that full and. proper valuo "was received for the amount of such debt.""- : " ;: ' '.' " : Mr. T.E., TAYLOR (ChristchuTch North) considered this to be aivery reasonable amendment. .The clause as it stood was an-insult to the Native. Tho debt of a Maori should be of the .same quality as the debt of a European.: ■ •• ; Mr.' CARROLL -said, it was a ' matter of speculation whether any tradesman at present would consider customary land—land to. which there was.no title—as .-security for a debt.-He would leave the matter: for the House. to ,deoidol - '■■ '.'.,'.'J; ':'■''■ ".'■ ■';■.-■'•''. '- ' , Mr./MA'SSEY; pointed l 'out- that only about 450,000 acres,:or one-fifteenth of tho-whole area of Native lands, came,under; tho '• designation customary. Ho would not object .to excepting customary land from his amendment ' Mr. MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty.) opposed the amendment ns likely to increase litigation. Mr. nOGG (Masterton) wished- the- '. clause preserved,' to protect tho property of'the .Natives, who were naturally extravagant and not prono to' consider the future. Dr. • RANGIHIROA (Northern 'Maori's) said tho ameridmont might bo-.called iniquitous. The storekeeper in a Native district w.as on a vory good: wicket..' Often the Native's maize crop was.mortgaged to the before it was sown, .and if there was n nso in tho price' of maize the storekeeper got the benefit Mr. FRASER, (AV.akatipu) : and Mr. BUICK (Palmerston)' spoke in favour of tho amendment.;' ■-.:'': ' '-.'■'. ' >-' : '-.,''■■■':' •■•'-■■ ,- Tho. amendment was rejected by 44 votes t0'22.'.;;...•;•:'■': '22.'.;;...•;•:'■': ':•; ■''■'■"■.■■': ", .'■';.. ■ ■;;' ■-.' Limitation of Area. < ;' : ■ "When the portion of'the-' Bill' "dealing .with .limitation, pf-;, - «g^Avrf|anfod w .C^y^ 1 : -

Mr. MASSEY said that, this was moro Important than the rest of tho Bill. With regard_ to Clause 191, which limits the area o! Nativo land to .be held beneficially by any pcrsoii, he'-thought tho limit of iOO acres of first-class land-was too small. With regard to Clause 205, Mr. Massey urged that tho alternative penalty of-two years' imprisonment for alienation •in breach of tho Act should be struck'out. '■'-.■.' It was stated that the game provision was -in the Land Bill. Speaking to further limitation clauses, Mr. Massey said that, while, ho was not opposed to limitation-altogether,'he. thought there should be a certain amount of elasticity in regard to tho provisions. .';• ■ In Clauso 206, which states that Nativo land hold by a single owner may be declared European land by the Nativo Appellate Court. .Mr..REED (Bay of Islands) moved an amendment to substitute "Native Land Court." Tho amendment was lost on tho voices, Mr. Rood then moved to niako tho clauso mandatory, instead of permissive. Tho amendment was rejected by 50 votes to 10. Upon tho suggestion of Mr. .Wright (Wellington South) it was provided that the residence in. regard to .open or partly open land must commence within two years, instead of ono year after tho; execution of the contract of sale by the board. •}--.',-''. .

To -Remove Disabilities. : ~. ; Mr.' HERRE3S. moved a now clause as ; follows:—"The Governor may,' on the recommendation of tho Court, subject to the provisions of tbis Part-of this Act, by'Order-rn-Coirncil declare any Native to be not a Native within the meaning of this Act." Mr. Herries urged that, Maoris of status and education should not be subjected to the general disabilities. ■ It wrald not be reasonable to debar the Hon. Mr. Carroll from selling an acre of land, or taking away a bottle of beer from an hotel. : Mr. CARROLL replied that the law should remain as it-stood- until the number.of the class- of Natives referred to -was larger. Dri RANGIHIROA also thought that the proposal'was somewhat premature. The clause was rejected by 30 votes to 22.

IMPORTANT AMENDMENTS BROUGHT DOWN. Several amendments were brought down "by Governor's Message relating to '■ the purchase and settlement of Native land. They provided for the establishment as part' of the public account of a separata account, to be called the Native Land Settlement Account. .. Ont : of the moneys raised or available for advances-to local authorities under Part 4 of the New Zealand State Guaranteed Advances Act, tho superintendent, under that Act, might pay into the account such sums as the Minister for Finance might from time to time direct, not exceeding in tho aggregate in any financial year, tho sum of '. £500,000. All advances are to be a debt payable: by the Crown to tho superintendent, and are to'be repaid; out!of tho Native. Land Settlement Account. Out of the account the Minister, .it is proposed, might, without, further 1 appropriation, pay all moneys required for—(a) The purchase or acquisition of Native land under, the authority of-this Act; (b) the survey, of' Native.land under the authority of this Act; (c) tho making of advances under'Section two hundred and seventy-two bf this Act to Maori Land Boards for the construction. or roads and bridges and ;for the other purposes mentioned in'that section: Certain revenues of the Crown aro to be paid into, the account, and-a statement-of account is to be laid before Parliament. .During tho discussion in Committee on the proposal to receive tho Messago! Mr. MASSEY said the amendments appeared to be very important.: Provision had been mado in the Land for. SottlemeD. Bill, to borrow money for the purchase of European and Native land. Was it proposed to borrow an additional half-million for the purchase of Native land? ■'..'' \ The Hon..J.. Carroll: No, the position is this: the .provision in the 'other!'Bill is. being lifted into this Bill, wfyich. contains tho machinery. Mr. Greenslade (to Mr-Massey): It is all right.. ■ >s -,- ■.;. ,-■ . :, ._ Mr. Massey: I am not going to be bullied into agreeing to theso amendments until a full explanation has bam given.' I.am prepared to wait until breakfast again'to-day. Tho-PRIME MINISTER said it was necessary to .have tho provisions in the Bill, and'if it ; was 'necessary,'-to .strike anything out- of another Bill he would do so. '. !Mr. Massey: T6'u.,ought to be able.to tell us. ' Sir Joseph: I won't allow a double amount to .stand", •;.. ' , After further discussion the Bill was recommitted and;tho.new clauses wero. agreed to, after which" tha;'Bill .was read a l 'third time and passed. s :,:!:•';!■/ In moving the Adjournment of tho House at ■12.30, tho • Prime ; Minister congratulated the House .upon*: the progress that had been mado that day... „ ;'.,-:■