THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 684, 8 December 1909, Page 5

THE HOUSE.

;! rt TJHE IAND ; ; /REPORT'{FINISHED.; //;/;M&{'/MA^SEY;{SPRINGS■ A'SUEPEISE. V ';■ {{The Eou^.'mat,at'2.3op^m.Vyesterday.' -' ;{;Mr. GLpVEE (Auckland,". Central) moved to lntrodncp.his New iZealand.Capital Site Bill; : the object of whichus to shift the seat of Goi ;. : - . -?v^? "Speaker-jig-this alocal BiU? ; : (Laush- ; ter.); :''-:vh-\y.lV.::< ■'•/■'"' J ':v';'.:•■,•' / ■':•■ i.'.'■',■■'" >•.■;' ' :; ■' Mr.. 7 Glov"erVNb, it 'is'a public Bill. 1 -'■ -/..Tlur/Bill/was: read;' a-first time; -and the : second reading; was: set down for next Tuesday.' :p>Themofaon:of:the.Hon/.T./Duncan-srith-re- :; gard _to .the.; Land. Bill, as : amended' by ..Mr. •v Hemes,-, was -agreed to i without 'discussion,'- as follows the report of. the Lands Committee on the: Land-. Laws Amendment; Bill ■ do' :lie j-npon v the/table;. and/.that .the 'minutes .of proceedings/of' tho'-'''committee-with refere'nco ::to:'.ith-e-';Bill.,.,be'laid'upon the{'table, of: the House arid'printc'd." ■' ./.'.•'. ■■'■■;' :;■;.-. •--..', ■ ••., ■.-. f" Mr. -FISHER (Wellington Central) moved an amendment ,_t'o addjthe' following words, '-"and .that;'in;th^bpinion.';bfUhis'House, 'the'land v.proposalsvof -the' Government'.are. {un'satis-' -•factory."v'lnvlOOS, :he{s'aid, ; {the land question ,:-v?as'brought;down in.the'form'of resolutions,' , : ahd-membersf .were asked to.vote 'on almost '.every/possible{.form of '.land: resolution. >■ Only, ten members could ibe'found to vote:for a're- ■ solution that, the. sale, .of ■-. Crown lands should .'cease. ■■'. The number had since -increased" t0,17. vNow.'.they had a measure - brought down that j ■was..; , ah-v;absblute'tr.ehuncia|:ion;6f-'.the -principle of tho leasehold by: those membcrs.of tho Crown ' 'Who''had/advocatec-^that.jtenure.'.vHeimoycd i the amendment "to give{an'opportunity to leaseholders to record their .'votes, bii the .question., . -Ho understood now that it, was. intended to .{abandon .the{Land, Bill. Were they to go on '-feasting, for: '~ If /members. could allow, the' present proposals to pass .without expressing, -.their opinions,- he ; 'thought.the sboner they ;had a new Parliament : the .better.>;He'-and some other, members .would • .-'-organise.: a.campaign which would'result, in o. , new forward next' session. :■,:{The:!amendment{,wa's not seconded..' >'■.<•'■■ ..'■: : '-it AND IFOR A SETTLEMENT "'ADMiNI's-' : 'X#'i''ft :^ii 'V ; T R /VripN;^;:;''-A' : {' {■The : /Land;{for': -Settlement' Administration : Bill;wa'si.considered:.in .Committee.::;■-> -'■-■ V :Mr..-ALLEN :'(Bmce) - referred t6 : /tho' inter-'' . dependence of. this '.Bill' '.and' ' the : State .Guaranteed,-.-Advances /Bill.-;' He asked if the,, .first 'measure ..could .not be -'made, complete by : itself.' {'Nobody .{knew'whether: the Guaranteed Advances. Bill -would /go. through 'this year or .not; -.At-present it-see'mdd tdbehunK up.' ■■'.-■ i _The iPEIME MINISTER said. he hid origin.', ally noped'to, make'/this/Bill complete by itself, ■but it-; had not .beefl< f6iihd:possibie in -practice.: -'-. -Mr. .ALLEN tsaid. the 'legislation..would soon :be like a Chinese 1 , puzzle'.-' '";. ',:.■..-. ■'- ; ,-:':?,...-:'I-,. ''-pOQGirag'gested thatthe ; words "local authority' should be.' substituted -for "superintendent. '-. r If■ the land: were'vested'in the-local , authority. it; would . /be'/better ■' m anage'd -. and more --secMei,. and .it .would <he -placed beyond the. political {{interest -'that ■ was now - ' playing' ducksVand drakes .-with', public property. ' : '.:• ' .:_.Mr.^IiATJEENSON:.'(.Lyttelton)- thought;that . though,it-:was, too I :late ;to"embody the'.sugges-tiojt-in -this'.measure; .there was.a tremendous .1", forcq.arid wisdom in-it.,He,hoped that -J.'-Bul to' give;,effect;to-.the'?proposal ! would be 'brought; cViwn'inext'session..- <■■■/V, ■■> ' • ;"'- •■ '{ ' ;Mr. :■ HANAN., (Invercargill) -..•'• endorsed : the BUggesfaon,-'and.'qnoted :■ the;example. of: ; ' the Small/Holdings. Act in Great -Britain. .-''-," . :; v.Mr.. M'LAEBN {(Wellington East) Vbolieved ■■ tnat if larger /powersVwcre ■ vested -in the - local .'authorities,,' arid'//the:'/Government assisted .:borough : ;;councUs,,:particularly .in' the larger' -..bflroughsy'they.vwould;:;be:. -able-'to. grapple ; effectively -with : : ; the/;problem' \6l'' the {housing ■of- the."workers; oh,'sehsiblo' lines. '/ ''"■■■- -

Safeguarding'''.the';;Money-Lender,, ' : . appeared to'; him that J??; 1 ?™;, was .vested in; the ; superintendent so that lit, might, be offered to..tho money-londer lniAngland as.direct.security for the money he lent. ■ It; was'being.'removed .from the Grown and-being placed-in:th6 hands.of the superintendent: in ordeT'Athat 'the::money-lender,: 1 if .anyone neglected;to;pay; his .interest or pay him Sack -his .loan;, should -have "'direct' recourse' Against the:land : ; itself.i: -- ;;. • ■-•■-.'; .■' .'; ; :' ; S ae ' :p fi? l^f:!uiniste r- : N'onsense; '.'-'■ '■"■:■ ■Mr.,,Allen...said; :.that -the' . inoney-londer only:- had;.recourse/now .against'; tho public revenues .of tho:country,, but it-was proposed to ; .give;himrecourse:.against;the lands of the :oolony.;;.It had: been'said-that we .were handing wer .the Crown .lands.. to- the' money-lender in, England,, but 'that; had not,been done in the pastinthe sense.iniwhich ifc was proposed to:.do; it:npw.; : .;The;tCrownaands,' as-well a3 the. public, swire'now to be handled -over;,to;;th.e. money-lender ;as .direct security. . The ••• money-lender ';cqiild?:take'; •action ■'against the supenntendent'andlhe supposed tho lands could^e : ;Sold. : : ;He,'wanted io, know-if the committee;was.Eoing } tordo this with its eyes open.. Onless the Prime -Minister could give oppose, the. ? r i?^ Mihi sfesaid ; he, iidtl already ex.plained- tho provis'totf/M: '•-. •,-.. ~- . •;•■ , ~ <; Mr;; HEURlfeS*:(Tauranga} said it'would be ; \ t? 'WW*. : .H»»t. tlie supcrin,tendent,.should ..have, power.;to.: borrow money, and -..that the , Stato /should !i guarante™ tie fe: cIa T f e J m d ■: 1 «ire;;rWtt):a; : lot of .litiga-,tion.v..lf-,the laild from ■ the .Crown, there>was no :reasdn why it. should not -be vested in;local,.authorities. „■ \ Mr - : HOGG,moycd,;-anramondmont to subshtuto.:.the.term ''local'authority" .for "super-' .mtendent. that it 'was late to move, but fetter ,:late...than never."-='. ;^. xh .S.a f nendment l was>rejected by 03 votes to 4. .Scopo.'of thD';Biil.:,»'*;;ft-",' '; ' : ;■■;■■■/'

*;111 -rapty question" : :; /; ::; '---"' '..]"■■■ .MINISTER -stated - that all' tho :«>».iPTPl)u?c!l'waS':to: : ;eiiable;:inoney fdr. land to ■ begborrowed; by tho Advances P?PfVta c nk along,Wth: o thev and subgoct■rtp i ithei : btatD,vßU«rtntc6: 'The ndniinistia; tion.,.cf-.thexUudß;fof:.Settleirieiit. Department TemainDd ! nn(lor ; . i ths;-:MiiiisterI.as1.as byV'the'Lands for.hottlenient 'Act.Mtliout.aav, variation. It was .provided: land shall be adeemed-to.: be- Crowii/.land oiude'iv the p'rinctpal^ct,■■•.■■ondv;thev.ilftjjah shnll ' aciMWdxngly ibe^/an^rohmfn^in' his' Majesty, : ; .not ; in 7 tba gsperihtendent." -" ■ -. . -

HERMES (Taurang'a), and Mr. Hogg (Mastorton) thought-,it was difficult to determino to whom - the land finally, belonged, since Uauso 3 stated that nil settlement land and moneys were vested .in the superintendent, and Uausc ;5 said .that for, administration purposes _tho legal title should remain -in his Majesty, und hot; in the superintendent. /":-■ ;CROWN TENANTS AND FREEHOLD. ~' ..AMENDMENTS BY MR. MASSEY.' / Mr. MASSEY moved a riow'sub-clauso to sec■JJ? n ,?< as follows :-"To provide further funds the Minister is empowered to sell to any lessee ot land held under'this Act the'fee simplo of tho landoccupied by such lessee, subject to the following conditions:—(l) Tho purchase price shall bo the original value of the land, meaning thereby the valno on which the rent reserved by tho lease was : computed. (2) Any lessee as.aforesaid may pay to tho superintenuont on any day appointed for : the payment ot the.rent any sum, being, not. less than'one-'i tenth of the capital value, in part payment of the purchase money for the ireehold of .such land, and his future rent.shall thenceforth bo proportionately reduced." ,Miv Massey said'he hoped presently to see the. : Prune Minister get up and say that he proposed to accept the amendment.' (Laughter.) After the freehold proposals that had been made by the Government, he thought that Sir Joseph :■ Ward would gladly and - willingly supproposal. They had heard a lot' about land tenures,-and ho'thought it was a pity that some definite decision' should not be given on the question, at anyrato on one issue of it. 'It was Evident from what had taken place that the Land- Bill of the Government was as dead as Julius Caesar. -. ' .-' Sir.Joseph Ward: No it isn't. . Mr...Massey: I sincerely hope it is not/Would the.Pfime Minister give an assurance that the •Lan'd.:BiHwould ho proceeded with this session? ".'..' .;' -, ' : .-'■ ".,••■■■ '•..-■,..' '.- ■ ; ■Tho Prime Minister: If tho business goes on properly it-will.'.; :.'....■.. ; ■'-■ •'■ / Mr. Massey: I, don't want any "ifs." He was quite willing to come back after Christmas, and ready to see the Bill placed on the statute book in a very much amended form. It wasquite, evident that an arrangement had been made between the' leaseholders and the members:"of the: Government, and he understood that the Bill would bo dropped for this year. Meanwhile;it would- be allowed to go on ..the floor of the House, and there it would'be allowed to stay../. ~... .-'Mr. Kussell: You must have.been listening at-the caucus. ~.:■' ... -, . -,'-

': Mr. Massey. said'the facts that he-had' stated formed one, reason for his moving the amend, ment. They .had heard at different times' that there were fifty- men: in. the House pledged to the; freehold. Here was an opportunity to see whether they would' keep their pledges.. Ho did not, care, whether they - voted • for ' the amendment.or not. Ho had moved the amend'irient so'tfint homight vote for it and keep his pledge to; his . constituency and'; the - country. •i'ltey, had .heard a great deal about tho-finances of the Government, this session—that it' was absolutely impossible for tho'Govcrnment to.continuo its, lands for settlement, policy /without some amendment,in. the direction/ho now -pro--posed—an-'ar'raaigement; by: which, the -people who occupied the lands -.would.'.have an opportunity to pay for those lands so that the mqnoy would bo available to purchase, other areas. He agreed thoroughly with that sentiment. He thought it'was-'the right thing to do.*' He had 'suggested;it many times in;the House and.on the public -.' platform,; and every audience he had addressed /from the, platform had agreed with Mm.: '•;•■ '■-. ■-■.-■'■'',■'■;■ Tenants Should Be .Considered. ; - -He' thought ; that -the; tenants should be considered "just .as much as' the landlord. He thought.it was {necessary that they should be giTen.easy terms of. paying, for, the land they occupied, and/therefore he proposed that they, should be 'allowed to. pay by instalments., Ho hoped to see the Prime Minister walking into the. lobby, with him on, the'amendment. Prinio' Minister: in Reply. ; j ' ' ; 'The PRIME MINISTER said he,.was:sorry that ho. 'could: not afford, Mr. r Massey.,: that pleasure.: 'This was, a, proposal ■ to' give{ the. ■laiid iii .feo.simplo at ..the original .value '' to 'the Hessees; -.;He..- did not. think: that many people, in this country , were/prepared to do .that:.'•■"";■ {/'v.'. :-\ ' /-.;:/ /-../'-. "-".'-■; •'." Mr'. T)avey:-.-:Not one-tenth,-.:. -..'.:-. -. -.. The Prime Minister,; resuming, said that" in anycaseMr. Massey Svas proposing to amend a : .Government; policy Bill'by his motion, and that -was a prerogative.that 'did 'not usually belongto the of the; Opposition. :' Mr. ■ MSljelyii.r.Diin't iyou-'think i I (have a per-; feet right ;tp move it? ."■' •'.-'. V ;; ' : " ~ .'.''-, .{Sir Joseph Ward: I have not the slightest, donbt you have,.but I have a perfect right to'oppose it.. Moreover, it was the Land for, Settlement -Administration Bill,'/ and 'not-•'the, Land Bill, with which the House was dealing/' •The !.ihformation ; { which,.-Mr. •-.■Massey.: had in regard.to the Land Bill'was'quite wrong.: He ..would..not, like ■, to. think that; the..ideas .'Mr.-' ■Massey 'had "mentioned' were- likely' to. come about. It was not. so. As" it was the Lands' for Settlement;' Administration "Dill -that was under consideration, he, was not: suro' whether ■the. ameridment was in order. ■The Chairman ruled that the amendment was in 'order; ; -.-. .-_ -■; -. '.'... ~-' .-■:■■• Mr.•'■■Herrles Supports Amendment. './Mr.-{HEEMES;V.(Tauranga) supported the .amendment, which' ho said was almost identical with the proposals in a certain Bill that-had j list,been- reported, on by the Lands' Committee. , : If this to allow: the ■•■ purchase of .the laud ; at the original value 'was the policy, of the Government, he did not see why the Prime Minister should not accept the amendment-from the Leader of .the Opposition.; There, was no, doubt that the'' policy of,-giving.:the"laad"at the original value had been takenby.the Government from tho proposals of -the; Opposition, and he could not understanu, ,if' the'-.Government' were inclined to put the idea in: their policy measures and in the. Budget, why .they could not put it in this ,Bill. Members .would, have, no other . opportunity, he believed, to give expression to their, views regarding''the proposals in the Budget, which he heartily approved; Tho Bud-" get/certainly said that settlers' would be enabled to get the freehold at the original valuation.: ,It was ;a;further recommendation 'that the funds raised,bythe purchase of their lands by the tenants,'would, be' used; for tho purchase :of other,.estates. That ■ suggestion- had been .approved not, only by the members' of the present -Administration; but' .also, by Mr" M'Nab. {He, thought that this provision to ear : raark-the money'for'.the..purchase of fresh estates iwas.the/chief,attraction of the 'amend-'' meD j 'i, I '' . r Ehi°ved tho objection previously urged that- the .money might bo spent in other directions. and: the land ,I'or/settlement policy allowed to drop. The people in the South Is-'. land, especially, objected, to' dropping that policy. Ihey wanted- large .estates cut up uear at hand,,on. ;which their children ■ would be able to settle.. ■ . •'"• ;;:•'"

A member: They': want-it in the North Is:land, t00.'j;.»;.. : •■ ;-.-■■,•;■ - Mr.. Herries: In 'the "North Island, 'if we had _a proper Native policy, we should have the Native land offered for sale.'. This clause provided the money to cut up large estates, and.; Ministers' had expressed the view that it was impossible to go on borrowing money in the -Old .Country; for the purchase of ostates .Here- was'a. way. to, meet the problem by' granting, to-the Crown tenant the thing his heart desired, and for which a great many tenants had' petitioned. If they could please all sides of. the community, in this way,, what' was the objection to adopting the clause? He thought; that the Prime Minister should have jumped at it."".■'.<• :' . ' '■■,-.:'■ Other., Speeches in Support.- , /Mr. ERASER (Wakatipu) said he would very heartily support the proposal. He, had always advocated the same.principle, and'had it.been adopted years ago thsynever would have'heard of the difficulty of obtaining money to purchaso ■ estates. • : . ;...,'.-:•' .- :: , .-..-

-'-. Mr: GUTHRIE (Oroiia). supported the proposed new, clause. The Land for Settlement Act was originally passed in order to promote elosor' settlement, and . to increase- the prosperity of;tho country. There was no idea of holding the land in order, tot make money out of: it. Later .on the question of the unearned .increment was':raised,: and if was urged that this,should -belong .'to.'the State. There was no reason why .the settlers should be charged more than the original value for their freeholds. Many of-them : had sold out their lands, and if;'there was any unearned increment it had been purchased again and mgain. An injury would be done to'.the: tenants if they were required to pay nioro than the original price. If the settlers were not given the opportunity to acquire their freeholds, the development of the country would be retarded. .There was no getting away from the loud: demand; part: of the people of this country for the,freehold: The Land Commission setup some'years ago had only demonstrated Cho strength of the freehold sentiment, and after all the Government's advocacy of the leasehold a House of 'Representatives, had now been returned which contained a'majority of freehold, membors. i .■'.. Against tho Proposal. ;Mr., HANAN (Invercargill). said. the amendnipnt.'.was -brougbt down .as ;a bribe to- get votes.-' -■ •"..' ••'•-;.-.■ »■; , --:; ; ~ -' Mr.,- ,M'LAREN - (Wellington .East).'.' hoped members,, whether.-freeholders or, leaseholders would'not'/be 'caught napping by'tne'.amendmant.- The- amendment contained 'a prbposi--tio'n which Oppositionists '.would face in the".conrse of ordinary business. : ; :.:■ ', .

Other Speeches. .Mr.:FIELD (Otaki) said the amendment covered all classes of-leases)' If the amendment was confined to leasc-in-perpetuitv- holdings he would support it..'' ■.. ' :; . ' ./Mr. EUiiS (Pahiatua) declared that he was m the same position as the. 'previous speaker. ■ Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) held that Mr. Hanan had condemned his own assertion by his own words. Ho would like to know where the bid: tor support camo in. Tho Opposition were doing whatever they thought best in the interests of the Dominion. He might remind members that the object of the amendment was to further closer settlement.

A Private. Imputation, Mr. WITTY (Ricearton) said the amendment was the same as they had had from Mr. Massey year after year. He. believed that Mr. Guthrie's sons had Government sections,, so no wonder he wanted to get the freehold for them at the original ; value. (Cries .of "Shame.") They were not going to get tho freehold, at'anything.'like the original value. The tenants had made their bargain, they had, received frequent assistance from the Government, and it was unfair that they should be given the freehold. , Mr. GUTHEIE, in a personal explanation, said he was very sorry that a member should descend so low as. to make such an imputation as had been made by Mr. Witty.' The statement was altogether wrong.., He had a family engaged in farming, - but out of .five of them, holding altogether. 1800 acres, they held. 200.acres under lease in perpetuity. What then was tho inducement to him to urge the granting of the freehold? It was unworthy of any member of the House to impute such a motive.

Mr. WITTY said Mr. Guthrie had confirmed his statement, in which there was nothing "low."

Mr. MASSEY asked if it was in order for any member to impute personal 'motives to another .member, and :to continue discussing his private business.

Mr. Witty: It is public business. ... - - /•/The CHAIRMAN ruled that members had ho right,, directly or indirectly to make imputations against other members, or/to Teflect upon their private business. . ",''.■' :.'' Mr.. MASSEY said that Mr: Witty, had undoubtedly . made such an imputation. Moreover; if Mr. Guthrie's sons occupied a small section under lease, in. perpetuity that .ivns ordinary Crown land, to which his am.vdment could not possibly apply. The CHAIRMAN ruled that Mr. Witty had imputed a motive, -. and should withdraw the expression. : Mr. WITTY, in ' withdrawing tho remark, said he had been informed that Mr. Guthm's family had.land under the Lands for Settlement/Act. . Mr'..Guthrie •.'.That is not so. :. ■Mr. Witty: I accept-the explanation., Mr.'Hogg's Views. ; ■ Mr.'-HOGG said .the. amendment .fully dis-. played-the intentions, of the Opposition. The land, held by the, tenants had • doubled in value, yet-the Opposition l would give them the freehold at the original-value. That was an act of that /would entitle them to seats in Heaven. The Oppositipn claimed to be tho virtuous persons, and on tho other side of the House were the rogues and/vagabonds, the/unscrupulous men r— . These expressions had to be. withdrawn. Continuing, Mr. Hogg.said' he/'-.was. not ono of v the yirtuons; men,- but.'he gloried, in his shame. The farmers, he' asserted, / had never asked for the freehold. The Opposition were asking the Government to do what they themselves would not think of doing in a private capacity. / ';■ < ■■■--. 'Mr. BUCHANAN, (Wairarapa) said Mr. Hogg had used the word "robbery," but .what was the value of the "robbery"? It was stated'in tho Financial Statement that the value to the State of the unearned increment under- tho 999-years'.lease was, not appreciable.. It was an open . secret. that; the ; Land .'Bill was not gpin'g to be.made law this session: ■'■■> . ■ Mr. PHILLIPPS (Waitemata) spoke in support of' the.' amendment, which, he said should-also-receivo the,-support of ■ the.-, Government freeholders, though party might prevent their giving that support. Mr. Massey Replies to Critics. ,:. .'Mr. ;MASSEY said the.holders of l.i.p."'and renewable lease had simplv given a mortgage to tho. State. It was in the interests of;, the State as well as the.tenants that the capital: should/bo paid .off. He did not see how -any business man coidd < look .'at the . matter..in any other .way..-.The l.i.p. and renewable:|easo-: tenants! could-not be separated -in.tliat .regard; Ho would be sorry to see tho Government take up the/ position of land ,'ijobbers' and : try to makeia profit:ou|.of, tho; State.-- They had heard;-:bnfy.recently that the lands for/settle-, nient scheme. was to be discontinued. '. Honji'T. Duncan: No, no. -/•..- M!r. fMassey: Well,' two Ministors ,say! ,so. „ Mr. iiDiihcan 1 ::.. I-.- don't . believe ...them. (Laughter.)...;./,;, './•;•/,■/.,../:■ ..- ;. Mr. Massey said.'that'tne solution'b'f the whole problem .was for the State to grant the tenants fhe freehold. He would not-make his proposal if he thought it would result in a loss to the.State. . ;• • ' ..-.:' .. The Hon. T.'.DTJIJCAN (Oamaru) condemnedMr.' Massey's proposal." He went/on to say that themanwho w;ould' give the tenants the, freehold.at tho original vamo'was two ; ends of ■a fool. /(Laughter.) -. .' ./,,..

•Mr. HOGAN,,(Wanganai) declared that Mr. Massey. Had'previously advocated an'actuarial valuation' in connection with tho price which tenants■'.should pay for the freehold. 'If that were his riew, why didn't ho. wait till the Bill came down? He held that the amendment .was a■:tricky',-•.■■:. --~:., Freeholders and Freeholders. Mr. MASSEY'stated that he would advocate the same. thing to-day. Everybody .knew—it was even mentioned in. the-Budget—that the reversionary-interest of'the State in an 1.i.p.. was practically nil. Mr.Field: What about the renewable leases?

, Mr. = .Massey:.;-The. system has only been in force; a.brief period.' .; Resuming,. Mr.. Massey said that .when he went into, a Government district,, ho never at-' tacked.the member unless under gross provocation; ; He was getUng tired of hearing about members telling their constituents that they were freeholders, but. advising them to put in a. supporter-of the "Government, because in that way the' district would get: roads and bridges. Bemadded: "I am getting tired of this kind of thing. 'On every possible opportunity. I intend:to separate the sheep from the goats on ; :the land question. I. will let the people see" who are the real freeholders, ana who cje. the sham freeholders'. : I have, no- respect for a man who tells his constituents that he is a freeholder' and then looks round'for a loopholo to escape with the leaseholders into their lobby." ■.■-.■• - 'Mr. DAVEY (Christchurch East) thought it would.be a disgrace if the House approved the amendment. '■'.'■. ■■• '. -V . ; : -..- .-

Two Factors. .';■;■■ ; Mr. BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) asked how much land values had increased since the renewable lease system came into force.: It was wrong, to. assume .that land . values . would increase in the future as in the past.' The present prosperity of the Dominion was due to the invention'of the freezing industry and the improvement in the carriage of produce. : Mr.. TAILOR (Christchurch North) ' considered the proposal in the amendment: politically dishonest. It was true that the reversionary interest in the lease in perpetuity at the end of 999 years was; nothing. - But the renewable leases were covered by'the amendment. -According .to his view the Government's proposals were nebulous and the Government'was in a confused-state of mind on : ibe'-subject.; He held;that the leaseholders were-inthe most logical position . and when the,judgment of the. people.was pronounced it -would be found in their favour. It was high: time the people were thoroughly roused on; the land question. If then they chose-to remain apathetic they, and those .who came after them, must pay : the penalty.: . The Unearned and.the Earned Increment. Mr.' NEWMAN (Manawatu) considered that Settlers in the backblocks were -well' entitled to any increase in the value of their land, which was really the "earned" increment. The "unearned" increment was to be found in the cities'and was the result of the development .'of the back conntry. - .'■'■■ ■ l -:,'-. : , Mr.. Lanrenson: 'Would, you • give the freehold to the Crown tenants? - Mr. Newman: To every one of them.. • ";Mr. Lanrenson: Some of us will see the electors of your district in a month or two. : Mr. Newman: They ■ will. demand the hold:-'-•'.Mr.'G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) held that if the amendment wero" carried it would "amount to a gigantic swindle. He was not at all sure that the tenant was entitled to any goodwill. The Opposition and the Endowments. 'Mr.'' MASSEY said he was opposed to the present endowments. Tenants of those endowments should have the option of the freehold. It was his opinion that the' State should set apart real endowments near ■ cities. Ho .had no de-sire-to interfere with real endowments '"' : Mr.: WRIGHT (Wellington South) declared that the Liberal party: had 'been: changing -front for years past. If the Government had remained with.its back to the-leasehold door , there-would -have ..been no confusion-in' the matter. It wns owing to the largo increase' •in the value; of city properties that city mem. [bers -were in favour of tne leasohold, : * ■

The Division, ■:'■',' Upon a division the sub-clause was rejected by 42' votes to 21.- -■■■ . ...Tho following is the division list:— ' ".' ■ Ayes; 21.;' ; Anderson . Mander Bollard;' ■ Masscy Buchanan ■ Newman Wivo . Nosworthy ■■' ' Duncan, J. Okey . v Greenslado. '• . Peafce Guthrie Phillipps JJ a "iy ■ Scott -. ... . • Holies • Smith . ' Hw» ''■■ ■ .Thomson, G. M.Lang . .. Noes.: 42. 4 rnold . Mac Donald ■R ro "" n ; Mackenzie, Hon. T. 'S uxto " M'Kony.ic, Hon.. R. Carroll - .'M'LarenClark. . ..Millar "•".'.'. Colvin .', Ngata •. Craigie ~ ' Parata Davoy '■■■-' ■ Poland '"■'.. ■:■'* ' Djllon. . . p oo le ;. Buncan/T. -;.. ..Reed .-■•-. i ill. r oss £ ie !d '■■ Russell -.'.'■'"..- Forbes '■ ■ ■ - ■ Seddon ' ■ ■'-'■■ ' S? ffMs ' " Stallworthy. g. lo .y e r . .-•-• Steward -.. f al l . •"-■ Taylor, T. E. Hanan .- Te Rangihiroa ' Hogan . Thomson, J. C. £%& ' ■ ■ -Ward . . . Laurenson. Witty ■ kawry. .. ■ .Wright - A New Sub-Clause, . <... -.Mr. MASSEY then'intimated that in order to proceed further on the subject ho would move a new sub-clause to the effect that the .freehold be granted t0.1.i.p. tenants at the original value. ■ ; , The Chairman: Did the previous amendment propose to give 'theso tenants' a similar right? , Mr. Massey: This amendment applios only to one class of tenants, and the conditions are ■uifferent.The Chairman: Then I must rule that this clause is substantially tho same as tho clause that was negatived in that it, is part of a: clause that has been defeated; ' . Mr. Massey then moved to report progress in order to get the ruling of the Speaker on the subject. Upon a division, the motion was rejected by 33 votes to 30, the voting' being as underlies: 30. Anderson .Mander Bollard Massey ■ Buchanan ' - Newman Buick ' Nosworthy Dive Okey , . ■ . Duncan, J: . . ■ Pearce Field Phillipps - Greenslado ■ ' - - .Guthrie Russell -Hall , ... Scott :.Hardy - Smith ■ •■ Herries '. . Steward- ' Hine Thomson, G. M. Lang, Thomson, J. C. Lawry ■' Wright ■'■ ■ ; Noes:.33. '- ; '.."'. ''Arnold ' " Laurenson Brown: Mac Donald ■Buxton '.:■': M'Kenzie, Hon. R. ' ..Carroll Mackenzie, Hon. T. ' Clark M'Laren -. ■ Colvin • , ' Millar Craigie Ngata Davey ■ Parata Dillon ■ Poland '.■■ Duncan, Hon. T, Poolo Ell .' Reed :. I : Forbes . Stallworthy Fowlds • Taylor, T. E. Glover, ...- To Rangihiroa Hanan Ward ■ -Hogan .'''•-. Witty,' ■ 'Hogg Limitation, of Areas. ' With regard tD Clause 19, which deals with limitation of areas:" "-■ ' ':••'• • ■-■'■ • - The PRIME MINISTER said ho intended to. introduce a nejv sub-clause to provide that oiiencro'of first-class land should be computed'as. equal to 2$ acres of .second-class and Oi acres:of third-class, and one acre, of secondclass land to 2J of third-class.. .'.

. Mr. MASSEY said the Primp Minister. was really reducing the amount that might bo retiinecß from 1000 acres, to 40Q acres.. He proposed to vote against the new clause, as he.;thought it was. not 1 treating the owner fairly. ' ' '' •''■'.'■ Mr.;BrjCHA!sAN urged that the land which came under the definition of "first class" was not really of-that, character. .Ho moved that Sub-section B, referring to classification, be ■removed.'-' ■ i . .':..[ . ,I'ho. amendment, was. lost, by. 42 votes to 23. Tho .new 'sub-clause proposed s by' the Prime Minister was agreed'to after some opposition. To Encourage' Families. - ■ Mr. NEWMAN (Manawatu) moved a new sub-clause to 'provide that every owner whose land was being taken should retain an additional 100 .acros of first-class land, or their equivalent, on account of each adult son, provided he could satisfy, the Land Purchase Board that such son intended to follow agricultural or" pastoral pursuits. Tho PB.IME MINISTER said he Was sorry ho. could not agree to the sub-clause. , Ho instanced the case of a farmer with, a dozen' sons as an obstacle. ' • '

■. Mr. MASSEYsaid hcregrefted that the Prime Minister could not accept this very reasonable provision. An injustice was being' done already in', the casoof men whose land was taken, though they had half-a-dozen'sons who might wish to'go on to it. . ■ '••■•' _Mr ROSS (Pahiatua) thought that the Land Purchase Board could riot-know -whether the son was going to continue on the farm. On this account he would oppose the Bill Mr. ANDEKSON (Mataura) supported the new'clause.

Mr.- GUTHRIE (Oroua) thought that the proposal was a very reasonable one. Tho Govornment was/acquiring this land for the purpose of settling people on it, and-this would be.provided.for by the provision. • There-was no risk ot dummyism*"if the.Land Purchase Board exercised its usual care. There was no doubt that-injustice had boon dono in tho P&st. If, the provision were carried, it would the o" tr . yery ' Ereat ?PP r Pbation throughout 'JHT- oß^S t (Hurunui) said he sympathised with the object ot the amendment, but thev nad to guard-against introducing reservations tor _a. special purpose. The result of these preferences was "dummyism." 'The land was Mr te w ? a> ; mont oi compensation.' Mr.. M.ARCE (Pafea) supported flu amendment. It. was directly against the interest of the country to drive settlors' sons out"f nf lch , would be tko tendency of. the Act if this clause was not passed. In f °f farm6lS sons'had ■-Mr. c(JlCK,(Palmerston) thought that'tho word "adult" should be omitted from the motion, so that provision could be' made for any sons. . lur

~Mr. WITTY (Biccarton) pointed 1 out that there was nothing o prevent an owner dividinl acquK b6fore th 6 sought 1?

. -Mr. NOSWOBTHY (Ashburton) supported the amendment As the clause stood, ally meant that a farmer's sons might go out street, since.he could not rVwr™ sufficient landior them. That propositron He did not know what thfE? lation of this country was coming to.

Claims to the , Land. ficing the man who ..had no land to the mai w»=° Hu s oi, the.land, which ho held the proposed new clause When there were men who.had no land, .a man who had land should not bo allowed, when the State stepped in, to make reservations for each of-his ;sons. : . The man on the land had no more rights, m tact had less rights,.than'the man who was not on the land. (A memberJ.hats the opinion of some people;) Mr. MASSEY replied that the. Government policy seemed to Ye that tho man in the street had just as much right to the land as the man who had gone into the bush twentv years beiore, and cleared the land and bronphV it into cultivation. ■ b Mr.Jf'LAREN denounced the amendment as an attempt to recognise the claims of hereditv in respect of the ownership of the land. The man in the street had as much, right to livp as the son of the land-owner. . ';

Mr/ Massey: Nobody denies that. Mr: M'Laren: He should have the same rieht to ballot for land. °

Mr. MASSEY spoke strongly !i n favour of tho amendment. ■

• Mr, LUKE (Wellington Suburbs) said he had come into the House to uphold the leasehold but he intended to vote for this amendment because ho-recognised that-when a man -tvnnf into the back-blocks and helped to develon thn wilderness he should be ablo to reserve for his . sons somo portion of the land, that ho broke in. : ~'■. .

Mr. HOGG (MastcrtenV;opposed the amendment on the ground that it would lead £» "duramyism." . . ■ l 0

■ Mr 4 -.' (J F' Y ( l a ? n , a M ) the amend, went. Those that had assisted in .developing the land should have a preference to thn nv tent of 100 acres, The Budget suguejfed giving encouragement- to men with families.

After further discussion, ■ tho proposed new sub-clause wns rejected by 30 votes to 25. .Mr. NLVYMAN (Manawatu) then moved a similar sub-clause,, with.so acres substituted for 100 acres,'but the amendment was ruled out ot order. The PRIME MINISTER proposed that Jause 2-1 should be amended to provide that land might bo-acquired instead of "compnlson y taken" for homes and home farms for workers, also eliminating town districts from tho scope ot the clause. His amendment was agreed to. .Mr. JAMES ALLEN moved to strike out bub-section 5 of Clause 27, which states: "In .no case shall any increased or further increased valuation, appearing on tho subsidiary roll be altered by reduction." on . s «u-"ction was retained by ■39 votes: to Period of Disqualification. With regard to Clause 52, which proposes Mat any successful applicant at a land ballot who disposes of his land shall he disqualified irom future ballots for five years, Mr. Witty proposed to extend the period to ten years. • The PRIME MINISTER said he could not accept the amendment, . Mr. T. E. TAYLOR moved an amendment' to impose an unlimited disqualification. He said ho wished to stop men making a business, of land-balloting. Mr. .WITTY said that if his proposal was adopted, the Land Board could be allowed, by a, sub-clause, to make exceptions in case of sickness or exceptional circumstances. Mr. THOMSON (Dunedin North) moved an amendment to leavo the term at. fivo years with a provision "except under very exceptional circumstances and with the.approval of the Land Board." Mr. Thomson's amendment was rejected by 34 votes to 26. Mr. REID (Bay of Islands) moved an amendment to make the disqualification ,apply only when the land was disposed of within five years of the ballot. This was'lost on the voices. Mr. Taylor's amendment was also lost 'on the voices. , Mr. Witty's amendment was'negatived by 47 votes to 10. ■ On the Prime Minister's motion, Clause 31 was struck out. The clause proposed to substitute; for Section 54 of the principal Act the following clause:—-'Every applicant who obtains an allotment of rural land shall reside continuously thereon for ten years after he enters into possession." The PRIME MINISTER said.the effect of striking out the clause was simply to keep to tho present system of continuous residence, instead of setting a limit of ton years. To Prevent Gambling in State Farms, Mr! TAYLOR (Christchurch North) : moved a new, clause as follows:—"Upon the sale of any lease held by any person over land ■ acquired under this Act there shall bo paid by the purchaser of any. such lease to tho Minister for Finance a sum of money equal to the increase in the value of such land as between the unimproved value at the time of acquisition and at the date of such sale; no.transfer of any lea.se to bo subject to payment." Ho said that the object of the clause was to prevent gambling in- State farms, which had gone on toa regrettable extent in the past. . : The PRIME MINISTER said ho could not agree to tho clause,. which he' thought would stop a great many people taking up land under tho leasehold tenure. A check was desirable, hut he had considered tie clause proposed, and did not think it was advisable. Mr.. M'LAREN spoko in favour of the amendment. ■ . .Mr. FORBES. (Hurumii) opposed the proposal as one likely to add to tho unpopularity of.the leasehold.-...-- • \ • '•, ■ The clauso was rejected by 48 votes to 10. Question of Tenure. Mr. MASSEY moved a new* clause that Subsection 1 of Section 45 of tho Land for Settlement Act,-1008, be repealed, and a new clauso be substituted, to the effect that no settlement land shall be disposed of by way of Tease-in-perpetuity, but all such land' shall be disposed of. on the optional .system. •'.. . - There was no doubt; said Mr. Massey, that the optional system was the most popular that tho country had ever known. ■ ' Tho proposed • clause .v/as rejected by 35 votos to 27. . Tho Bill was reported with amendments, and at'-2 a.m.,the Houso adjourned. .- -: