PARLIAMENT.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 681, 4 December 1909, Page 6

PARLIAMENT.

ANOTHER GOVERNMENT DEFEAT. A VOTE STRUCK OUT. TAX DEPARTMENT, INQUIRY. AN. ANIMATED DISCUSSION. DEBATE, ON THE LAND PROPOSALS. .In the Cotincil iyesterday. tli©'Hospitals and' Charitable Institutions Bill was put through its. Committee stage.'and-'passed.' An important clanso relating to the power ;of friendly : societies and- boards to makes' agreements was ] rejected.' : \ The discussion on .tho Land Committee b report on to 'L"and \Bill;;waS continued in the ! House yesterday afternoon ;by - Messrs. Thom.son (Wallace) and Hogg... (Masterton) whose speeches produced no . excitement. In the evening an miusual ..event occurred, 'an . item on the Estimates being'deleted by .a vote of the House given, .against-'- the . Government. The item • was ! to pay X4OO -to- the Hon. W. P. Reeros as financial ; adviser, of. the' Government in London.. ~ Mr. Massey* took. lip the position that there was no .need for'this; position, the Government having- done.:.without a.financial adviser in. London some years. The, Prime Minister defended .the-item, . .but the .division on the motion to delete it proved hostile to the. Government -by 35 ; .votes to 25.'. The only other important feature of ; the... discussion on the Estimates- was a protracted . discussion on the administration ,of • the Land and Income Tax Department. 'Mr. Wright: moved to.re-. dilce the. salary of'the Commissioner of Taxes by£s ias an indication that.information should be laid, oil the;, table; with regard' to the .recent ' judicial inquiry. The amendment .was lost''by. !40. votes, to 21. . THE COUNCIL. iUDDCCT SUPPLY BILL .NO. 3.

IMPREST 'SUPPLY. BILL NO. 3. •When the Council met yesterday afternoon the Imprest Supply'-Bill-Ho; 3 (which was adopted by the House on Thursday) was passed through all its'* stages'without* discussion, ■ LEAVE OF ABSENCE. Leave of, absence - for., the remainder of the session was granted to, the Hon. Mr. Holmes (Westland) on' account of 'ill-health.': REPORT ON; A PETITION. The Public, Petitions. Committee reported that .it was .unanimously of opinion that_tlie nianv , important: services rendered by ; VVm. Gilbert M'air, ex-Judge of 1 the 'Native Land Court, , to-.:the country, and particularly_tho distinguished part borne by. him in the Waikato war, entitle him . to, the, favourable consideration of the - Government. _ The. chairman (Hon. J. E. Jenkinson) gave notice that he would move that the report be adopted on Tuesday nest. COUNCIL TO SIT ON MONDAY. 'The"ATTORNEY-GENEEAL moved that the Council hold a sitting at 3.30_p.m. on Monday. He said it-was expected the Council would receive on Monday a'very large number, ot local Bills. "It was-hoped.on Monday,to, refer them to the proper committees,.which would be able to deal wfth'them. on Tuesday .',:. li, the Couii-. cil did not sit on'-Monday lhwould put:matters,- * The Him; Mr; Smith:. I hope,that there-will-be other : work to do. Dr. :Findlay: I have .no ' doubt ,that there -will be.--' - The proposal was adopted., HOSPITALS BILL.

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES AND BOARDS. . GOVERNMENT'SI PROPOSAL REACTED. ■ Further : consideration then took piawrin committee with reference, to Clause 72 of the Hospitals Bill, which provides that boards may make agreements for special terms as to,_maiiitenanca in hospitals, of .members of tnendly societies. .... ..... ;"■:"■ ■•.' " '..'/ ' -'''■.•' .Objection ..to Special Agreements. The Hon. Dr., COLLINS (Wellington) declared that in time of an epidemic an hospital might bo fully occupied to the exclusion of non-members of friendly societies. In the interests of the sick, and in-the interests of. the whole community the, provision was unnecessary.' It should be .borne: in' mind that the, medical profession did a vast amount of work free of charge to poor patients every year. The Hon. J. RV SINCLAIR contended that the clause. amounted ; to'legislation °Tbe Hon". 0. SAMUEL (Taraiala),whilst ad-; mitting the good workwhich;, hadrbeen. done :by friendly societies thought'the clause was a blot on the Bill. • ■ ;;■.,;;'!;, -.. ~ The Hon. G. J. SMITH (Canterbury) ; .was of opinion that tho friendly. societies , and the medical practitioners should: confer ~'among themselves, in reference: to -the- question ot special terms ' for. treatment If preference were'granted to friendly societies, preference should also be given to other classes. . , - '.' The Hon. Major, Harris:' Farmers Unions? • Mr. Smith: Or Labour-bodies for instance. The Hon. J.-B. CALLAN; (Otago) submitted that there was no need for-invoking legislation on tho subject . Away outof the difficulty would ;bo for the society .to,'meet the hospital ex■penses. ofajiy of itsi-members.'. ..;, .. ■:

Friendly Societies Would Be The, Gainers. : The Hon. J. M'GOWAN (Auckland) said that sooner .than vote for the clause he would sooner' agree to leave the administration of hospitals-and • charitable institutions ; as at present. If the clause were adopted all chronic cases which the friendly societies did not :wish to. maintain would be foisted on the 'boards. '• ■'.< ' , 'i ■■- ■. The Hon. A. BAEDEY (Otago) hold, that the clauso was unfair both to .'non-members of •friendly societies and to: the! medical profession. ■■• '•' ■ ■■■ ..•■' - ■ The Hon. C. M; LUKE (Wellington) expressed the; opinion that if ...the clause were adopted it would' mean that the honorary medical staffs at hospitals would cease to exist, and in their place ■ would have to be ; a large paid., staff.', He pointed out , that patients who were unable to pay for treatment, including members; of friendly societies, received treatment gratis.; The;'board : should be left free to make;such agreements as they!sodesired., ~ .'•;'.'■:: * Views of Dr. Flndlay.' The ATTOEHEr-GENEBAL declared'that no organisation showed '• a. more manly independence of' State' aid than'friendly societies. The clause was intended to place in the coffers of thecountry a larger sum, than was possible' in the absence of ■ the clause.; At present the average, sum produced by; each hospital bed in the Dominion-was only .£lO per annum. Some time'ago a proposal'was'made on behalf of a friendly society to pay; £}S\ , a .bed; per annum for each of six-beds in the-Dunedin Hospital for use by any of'its members :who might become incapacitated. 'The intention ■ of. tho' clause was so' that members i% 'of; friendly so-, cieties should ; not : - figure as' paupers : in the public institutions, and that-friendly' societies should' come in and? pay' a' fair -sum in respect of each of their .'members who required treatment. . "He. conjectured?>,hat: at: present only half of the members of. a friendly society who now had the misfortune to'have to go into hospital could afford to pay the'full rates.

A Good Bargain for the State,:,, ' If provision' l wore.ruade whereby fair sum should be paid by a friendly.society in respect' of each of its members, their wives.or childron, who went .into hospital, surely.it would bo.a good bargain for the State? ' ■ • ;.\ A member: Eiclior poor? ". ■'< ,' '•■: ,'■■• .-... .' ■ 'Dr. Findlay:.Yes.' ■■; V : ■ Kesuming, Dr. Kndlay said that preference ought, however, not to to members of friendly societies to. the exclusions of non;members.' '~ ; . . ..' To Prevent Preference. • . To give' effect to his proposal,"Dr. Kndlay said he would, later.. moyo as- an addition to the section, as follows:— "Nothing in snch ■' agreement or in this section' shall give.; or- bo' construed to give' to any member or to any friendly society' or association of .friendly any preference as regards : admission to or relief in any institution ;over any other applicant tor .treatment or•'relief, nor shall any'such, ngrcement exclude, i modify, or extend any . .by-law under this Act, savo in so far as such agreement may provide for a special r.°fa : W- th < HT»«-tm«nt nf snnh individuals.'. .

! The Hon: J. E. SINCLAIR (OtasoV hoped that the question would bo considered from tie point of view of. principle, and not one of £.s. d. If tho proposal were adopted, it would bo the worst bargain the State had over raado. It would, give preference to friendly society. : patients, Decause more would be paid in respect of them than was paid by the. average patient, which would be a preference with a vengeance. '.''." Strong Advocate of the Provision, The Hon. W. BEEHAN (Auckland) pointed out that some time ago • an agreement was made at Auckland between friendly societies and the hospital authorities. When a membor was in the hospital,' the friendly societies had to pay two sets of fees, one to. the hospital and the other to the lodge doctor;in respect of the patient. No chronic case even went to-the hospital under the agreement. For the amount tho friendly societies were saving the country, the clauso would not givo them half that they deserved. .If tho olause did it would mean a severe loss to tho hospitals; tho friendly societies would set up their own hospitals; and members would train their own sons as medical practitioners. He went on to criticise the Auckland branch of the British Medical Association. The sooner tho trouble thero came to an' end the better. What did they; find nowadays? Why, a pinprick or flea, bite was made the subject of an operation. (Laughter.) It might come to this: A Government officer would ■be appointed in the larger centres t6 watch all major operations. ■':'','■'. .The Hon, H. P. WIGRAM (Canterbury) contended that the arguments against tho clause were stronger 'than those for it. \ Whole Section Killed on a Division. .'■ At this stage; in order to test, the feeling of members with reference to the whole section, The Hon. Dr. COLLINS (Wellington) moved to strike ont its opening words. •• Dr. FINDLAY intimated that if the amendment were lost he would move (in addition to the sub-clause of 'which he had previously given notice), a sub-clause reducing the period of contract from five years.to two years. Upon' a division the Hon. Dr. Collins's amendment was..carried, with tho result that ' the whole section and sub-sections were thrown ' out, the voting being asfollows:— ■■',■"-.

Against the Amendment (13). Findlav. .' Trasio:, ; Kigg , ' Paul . ~. , Jenkinsoa Jon6S \ ' Beehan . Tucker Loughnan : M'Cardle ■■ . Kelly ■. . . . Anstey . ■ ■ . Milk . ■ " For . the Amendment (18). : Callan , . Smith : Luke , .Stevons ■ Carncrdss ■ Gilmer . . '. ■ Baillie "• Thompson , Collins • ■ Wigram • Marshall ' M'bowan . Johnston <: - Sinclair f Miller' ' . Samuel , •: ■ Additions to the Bill. : ' Two new'clauses—one -providing'that teachers and students of ■ a medidaU school should he 'entitled to access 'to; .institutions , under !; .the , control of a board, and' another' relating to the''-'union' of hospital. districts—were added to the Bill, and a number of verbal amendments :• were'made. !. , : Recommittal Refused. . '■■■- t i The Eon. C. M., LUKE • (Wellington)' moved to recommit the Bill, in order that Section pi, Sub-clause 3, should be reconsidered. The clause provides that no new institution shall bo established, or building erected, or structural addition or alteration costing; more than 'JE2SO made to any building unless the consent of the Minister'has', been previously ' given. His object was. tov enable'' larger institutions ,to have more extensive powers,: without th» authority of 'the' Minister. • - Dri'FINDLAY.v opposed the-motion,: oil. the ground .that ■ the-::restriction .in the .clause was necessary in view of tho fact.that there,; had. been .a .great deal,.of,.thoughtless penditure in, connection -with different institutions. , . ' . . .The motion was defeated on the voices.',, The Bill/Passed. The Bill was then read a third time, and 'passed. ! . . , •... , - THE HOUSE.

. FRIEN.DLYvSOCIETIES'BILL.; "; '■'When the House resumed at 2.80 p.m. yester.day,". ■'■'."■■ ""--""••■'.. ~•,:■;./•'.;; ; - ; .';./■;].-■■.' ■ .- The Friendly Societies: Bill .was received by Message, :-and. read-a' first time. -Tho''jsccon'd reading was set/down' for next sit-:ting-:;day. : " The JohnsonvilleSchool Reserve-Amendment Dill was discharged from, the Order Paper, This was done in- accordance with- the report of the Local Bills Committed, which recommended that as the proposal contained in the measure was to vary a trust, and as application for this should be made to the Supreme Court, th( Bill be not allowed 'to proceed. : _" OTAKI COUNTY BILL. > It was reported that the Standing Orders .had not.been fully complied with in regard to the Otaki County Bill, the plan of the.district , "■ffot having been submitted;' The .- Local Bills' Committee recommended that the '.Bill, should bo' discharged' from the Order Paper. .'''..'. ' • , Mr. LtTKE (Wellington Suburbs)' moved an amendment, 'which'" Mr.' Wright (Wellington ; South) seconded,, to: allow the . Bill to l proceed. ' ■". ■'•■' ■ ''.'.,'' '.'■',■ i The.Hon. J. A. MlLLAß,opposed the amendment. Mr. .Lukewas'asking them "to form a - .new county, without one soul in: tho district .having had an opportunity of knowing what 'were the proposed boundaries. Mr. LUKE said that a plan had been deposited in the Otaki-Magistrate's Court.'' i Mr. ROSS (Pahiatua) urgod that the Standing Orders, which were well known to local 'bodies,-must be respected. ■-'.;■ Mr. FIELD, (Otaki) suggested that the Bill should be referred back to the committee.'.-. ■ The amendment was lost on the voices. ■ . '.' LANDS' COMMITTEE. ;,. \. ' The Lands Committee reported that the •TaranaW Agricultural Society 'Empowering Bill, Waipukurau. Reserve Bill, Opunake Harbour Amendment. Bill, and -. New.. Plymouth. Harbour Reclamation Bill should be allowed-to proceed, with amendments. ; , ■•.',.... , ..'.,'..' ;_ ....', ,'..'. '.;■;'.:(■'.■. LAND PROPOSALS. DEBATE CONTINUED. \:/." : The discussion on\the.Lands Committee's re-' :port on the Land Bill was resumed by , , ; ; . Mr. THOMSON: (Wallace), who said that the Government was. representing tho great bulk of the opinion of the people of New Zealand in its present land proposals. Sixty mem-' - bers out of 80' in the House were prepared .to record their votes for the freehold: proposals in the Budget., ■ . In reply to an. interjection, -Mr. .Thomsonsaid he did not-wish'''to sell the. endowments. Mr. HOGG (Masterton) said that those op. : posed to'tko, freehold!had never designated the freeholders "robbers." The land : nationalisers • had never contemplated interfering with any "man's present tenure. He admitted ; tkat if be tol<f- the : Crown tenants ,in ; parts of his !own electorate that he,intended, to . support ■the Government proposals they would cheer him to -the echo. ■ The Government • -would .borrow a''few more ■ millions to enable- .tho 'Crown tenants to purchase the freehold. It did . mot matter how. much the public debt was. 'increased. .It had grown enormously of recent •years. 'He did not think any tenure had done .more for the development of New Zealand than the despised 999 years' lease, though it had isorious; defects.pnee land .becamo- freehold, -'it almost invariably came under tho.control of the money-lender, the landlord, the 1 'capitalist. The Government, in his -opinion, 1 was prepared to eat dirt- of. alntost" any, ''description. He prophesied: that the Land Bill -would hot go through this ■ session, nor next 'session, nor tho session after that. After tho goneral election, the .number.' of.- leasehold 'members would- be. greatly' increased.' There 'was. now a strange-fusion between freehold 'members of the Government anditho.Opposi'tion. The Leader of the Opposition was lileo ; a shorn sheep; he ■:• had been' robbed;. of, his •political garments.. ■:'_ : •.,',;:'. ".-,.-. „ - - ■-. Mr. Massey:-I don t look like a shorn Hogg, ianyhow.. ' - - . ■ : ■ ■ '";. ■ ! Mr. Hogg said that: every acre, of land in .'this -country was now-liable to'bo converted 'into freehold. Ho 'was'very ■ doubtful of the Safety of tho endowments. The Government ;had performed a ''back-somersault, . and had :gone oack- a quarter iof.'a ."century.; in one ■jump --as' far. ;as 'its -.land 'legislation .was . r -■•.''':.'.,-.' Mr.-Wrlght: on Parties.- >-":- v .-.'■.' •: ! Mr. WRIGHT (Wellington • South) said ho ■had always understood that 1 if anything'divided '.tho House from the Opposition it was tho land -question. There' was now' no lino of, demarca-tion-between the parties, and.Jid-hoped it iwould bo understood that there was now- no Conservative party in the House, and, properly -sneaking, no Liberal party. Thero wero only '.an-OpEPitjuikt'-E&rty' and-on, oppjisition_-to

that party.' The Government had boldly taken the policy of the Leader of \the Opposition; In Great Britain, when the policy of tho governing party was ■ not supported by a majority in the country, they: resigned, but tho New Zealand Government' nicroly: chanced its policy. A Government could never b0,.. defeated that acted in this way. - Like Tennyson's brook, it would go on for* over. It was a romarkablo position to' him. that the Opposition; wero now called upon to support tho policy that had been taken from them. Ho did not believe in selling the Crown lands. 'THE DEFENCE BILL. '.■'? Tho'PRIME MINISTER moved the' secorid reading of, tho' Defence Bill: pro . forma, and that it be referred to a Select Committee consisting of Messrs. Allen, Brown,- Clark, Fisher, Hanan, Jennings, Reed, Rhodes, Sir William Steward, and himself. -.-. ■. Mr. RUSSELL (Avon) suggested that membors from the Council might also bo appointed to consider the Bill. Sir Joseph: I'will confer with my colleagues on the subject. " . ;■ •'.";'-■ ' The Prime Minister's proposal was agreed to. THE ESTIMATES. AQUESTION OF SYSTEM. The' House went into Committee,to considor the Estimates. Upon the vote of £528$ in connection with the House of Representatives, ; Mr. HERRrBS (Tauranga) asked if some consideration could be shown, the interpreter, seeing that he was.now doing,the work'previously done by two interpreters.■'■"'••,■'•■■. .;".'' ' ,' The PRIME MINISTER said-that the services, of one' interpreter, were; now all that was required. ■• Probably. the sole interpreter should receive a little more. He v;oula look into the matter. ' ■■'.■'•',''• '•'".

Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) objected to. the system] of: lumping-the salaries of • some of the officials. He, favoured the adoption of the Cana-. dian system, Under which .the. salaries;.were, shown separately. He would also like to know' whether apparent': savings Cwero. to, be real savings. •' i. ' '. Tlie PRIME MINISTER considered that the proposal to. give the salaries separately,,could not be effected without a system of.post-audit. The savings were all real ■ economies. '. Mr.'MASSEI thought the!; Public Accounts Committee should be asked to'consider whether the details as to salaries could be given. ~ Mr. ALLEN, who expressed * dissatisfaction with the reply given by'the'Prime.Minister, 'then moved that the-.item be. reduced by £[, as an indication that the-House desired the items of expenditure with regard to salaries placed more in detail in tho last column ;of the expenditure. .< '..,, ._.."' ;'■■' ; Mr. HERRIES. (Tauranga) submitted; that the committee clerks should be, put on a more permanent'fooKng.'■'■'■ .... ..•.••'■• ■ .'.■;'•-• . ' -The PRIME' MINISTER said the difficulty was to. find work for such' clerks throughout |' 'By, 36 "votes -to 26 the amendment'was-re-jected, and the vote was afterwards - passed.;,

General Assembly Library. : . -'-. . . '■, ', " When the vote of for .Legislative Departments .was .under discussion,. : .', :, : Mr. HANAN" (Inve'rcar'gill) • moved that jin item: in reference, to the- General; Assembly Library should he reduced by M, as an indication to the Government : that the/cost of the Departments should be ' reduced.'•" He. asserted, that the Department was':'overstaffed;'.in fact, one or two of the-officials'seemed to have soft billots. 1 - The full staff was retained during the recess, when the library was open chiefly for. the: benefit of Wellington- residents.- When economy, was the order'of the day, it should be' applied wherever possible. ; "i V, ;. Mr. FEASEE (Wakatipu); chairman Of'the Library Committee, pointed out that the library, was a valuable institution, and it: had to be E : roperly' maintained. Members: of the staff, ad to work very hard to ■ overtake the .'work, which, in'.'his opinion,' was exceedingly well .The PEIME":MINISTER was^ahy'extravagance*in connection with the' library.' . Since,, the-present .librarian took of-, .flee-ten'.'years'ago"only'!one'/extra : messenger, had-been taken' on,' whilst the' services of four ' extra .clerks had been . dispensed with. During ,tho'.,past-tea"years, also, the: number of books-iii the library' had increased from 44,260 to -'70,996. 'There' was. as; much" work' during-the'recess as during the session,'owing to cataloguing 'and pother technical opera- ' tions. ',He;t'h'ought that,'the library, was-a great credit 'to Parliament' and' the' country. ■'■'.- r ; - Mr, J./ALLEN acknowledged most valuable the'. chief his ; 6'taff. ■'■■ '■'':■ ' .'"' ■'• Mr. EUSSELL (Avon) 'suggested' that the Library " Committee should consider some: plan ■ : for 'enabling the chairmen of university.professoriaf boards to obtain,the'loan of: scientific works for special purposes' during.the''recess. ■: /■Mr. HANAN acknowledged the high qualifi; cations of the chief, librarian, and'Mr.'Massey testified to the efficiency ;of the staff. : Mr. . Massey said ho. hoped that the amount .would ■ not be" reduced. '.'■■.''■ • Mr. FISHER: (Wellington , Central): "spoke against the amendment, which'was carried.:.'. !'.' ,The Printing BUI. '.';■ /'"

Spoaking on the vote for Hansard (.£4685)," -Mr. THOMSON (Wallace) urged that the Government could savo a- ; large sum on,its, printing hill. Hansard would he much improved by condensation," and -a sa'virig-.of ,£IOOO could be effected on this'item, alone, /.i',, .'-,'/..,

GOVERNMENT DEFEATED,

ADVISER IN LONDON." :' ; A VOTE STRUCK OUT. ;,-';, ' With respect to a vote. of. .£4oo> the Eon. AY. P. Reeves as.financial adviser to -the.Government in. London, '.:' •• :"•'.' /Mr. POOLE (Auckland West) said there was' a growing impression that there was. too'much expenditure: in connection with the High Commissioner's Office.. He had heard that at'• 9.30 a.m. one' would only find the. office boy there. There were several officials, who found it difficult to give sufficient value; iii return 1 for the salary which was.paid them'.,, .The PRIME MINISTER said that arrangements were being made whereby work costing from ,£1500,t0'.£2000 would be done inside the office instead of out of it. . . '. ■ Mr. MASSEY thought the position of financial adviser: had been spcoially, ■ created for Mr. ;Roeves, and. to test the feeling . of : the House he.moved to strike out the item., The PRIME MINISTER.heId that the position was a very necessary; one.-,' , ;■,. . Mr. Ma'ssey: But we'did without ; a : financial adviser for some years.'..,, • ] Sir Joseph: Unless ,the appointmfent had not Ibeeii warranted, it would not' have been made, '■: Replying to. further criticism,, the Prime Minister, said that the 'position had become vacant by. the .retirement' of Sir Walter ,Kcnnaway. It had previously-been held by;tho late Sir Penrose: Julian, and,also.'by the.lato Sir. Julius Vogel. "■'■' . i Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) suggested" that the Services in Question might.be performed.-by the Crown agents. : ■''■-'-.':.:'", ■'- Sir JOSEPH: It would not be: wise; as the 'work of each is quite separate,. In view .of •the .importance of the duties the. payment'of MOi is'a mere■ bagatelle.', " •■■.'■■.•■ :■' ■ ..- Mr. RUSSELL (Avon) said that v;hen 'Mr. 'Reeeves- retired from -the service of -NeW-Zea-: land, he'did so to take .up a lucrative position. . He'had been-well paid for his services to the Dominion, and .unless the Prime Minister, could satisfy the House■ that the. expendi-. ;ture of this .£4OO was. necessary, he,must, vote 'for thei amendment. ■-".'■■''•'-, '',■' '■'■'" ;-'Sii JOSEPH: Tho Government would, not have made the appointment if. the expenditure had riot been warranted, and Mr. Reeves would : not accept' the money if he were not giving the colony full'value in return.'/: ■; "■';•''.'•■ Some. Complaints. ' .'..j' Mr; CLARK (Port Chalmers).said that two of his friends, were at Home at the. time" Mr. Reeves was: High Commissioner.'; As they were in need of certain information relating to the 'colony they both wired'.- and- wrote to. .Mr. Reeves, but got to-reply, at all; ,'.-_ ' The PRIME .MINISTER said at: might have been- that: the wire was • not reply., paid. Inquirers could not expcct\tho;High Cpminis-. sionorte • offico to send roplies .by. wire .at. its own cost.': "Some people/' added; Sir,.Tosepn, "think they are little Lord, Almighties .when' they get away; from the Dominion. ,Iho right thing for such people to.do is.to depend more, on themselves. :Of course, when, they ;■ need advice they, should make application, for .it. I' cannot believe tlmt Mr.. -.Reeves ..was. dis-. courteous.". -■ ■'■■-•,_;' ; ■ '"'■< vjii-."■/.■ ,; •''-■ Mr. BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) told of Jiow a well-known • Now Zealander; once , visited the office of the Agent-General, whilst ,Mr. Reeves was in office. A ftor inscribing his'name in tho visitors' book,' he'asked if :.tho Agcnt-General woro •in his office. Tho; reply- came that he was not in his office. Presently the attendant; looked at the book, with tho result that: the letters M.H.R. after .the.; visitor's-.name had a: 'magical ettect-—. ■ „ : -,' '•- : '.'. ■.'Sir Josoph:.Walter C.,.Buchanan was, in front of them. .'■! ■'•',:'.-':/■, -: Mr; Buchanan: No, you ore wrong. _ .. . .Resuming, Mr. Buchanan said ■; that what happened • was that before.-;tho- visitor could reach the bottom of.tho stairs ho was ■informed that Mr. -Rcevos was in his, offico. He (Mr. BuchauanJ did not blame the. Agent-General,

because he recognised'that he could not ho at .;. the disposal of every visitor, who called, at the office. . I% ,'■':' . „"■■'.■■ S The PRIME MINISTER referred to th« ~; large 'number' of "visitors who' called, at tho , High Commissioner's office. Was it not possible that the High .Commissioner had and ... had; returned unnoticed by the attendant? , What Happened toMr. Luke. ..'- \i; Mr. LUKE'(Wellington- Suburbs) referred, t* , a visit'which Ko paid to the office of the High :' Commissioner some' three or,four years ago,,' ' Ho said that he was well accredited, holding,, among other-introductions, a letter from ths, ...;■■'.:•... Right Hon. R.J. Soddon. He mightalso men. ■ Hon that he had met Mr. Reeves m His official .; capacity. " One of the officials in the ofhew informed him that it would bo beet.for him to write to-the High Commissioner. He had , replied that he would not. adopt that course, but would return at noon next.day, and would / expect if nobody else had a prior claim to see V. Mr. Reeves, seeing that he was a business man f of New, Zealand of long standing, that he, was well, accredited, and that lie was the holder of a position on. important local bodies, such as tho Citv. Council, the Industrial AssociaHon.'ctc. • As a result of the attitude he,hail ■ taken" up, he was able to see Mr. Reeves, but ■:'•'. "hifi> old" friend Mv.' D. Robertson 'was not able to do so." The present oconpant was a, man with a'large heart, and he was glad to scev him occupying the position; ...,', Mr. ■ DAVEY' (Christchurch East) said he; could produce evidence showing that some Christchurch residents, were treated discour- ,', teously -by Mr. Reeves whilst Agent-QeneraL, ■ An unfortunate partof the affair was that -s.-,. young'fellow who went Home in ill-health - died there. ■• His friends wanted information reW. tive to how the body could be. sent out to • New Zealandj and other matters. But though they tried hard,-they were 'never able to eo» '

him. -- - ■ ■'■■■• ■ -r" •j ■ ':■"; ■'■. ■■' .'. :,■ -~■, The. PRIME .MINISTER said that it was-'.. •'•. possible Mr; .Reeves"may have been out of; ■■.' London at thotime. : He was sorry that, i; ,' complaint was not made at'the time, so that' , it could have been forwarded to London, j; Mr.' Davey. I' believe that,one, wa6. ■ , ! *. :;•.;..' Vote Rejected*; • •';.. f ;'7 ; :i:V. v ./ :;: Upon a division, the amendment was carried!:: : : by ,35-votcs t0.25, .the voting being as under sj-r ■ '_, ' ' , For'the amendment (35).• , ;',,..'''. 'Allen. '■ //'".".''.,'..■■ ..;'Lang.'- - : '"]':;,: 't '■.-■'■. .'Anderson : .:...■: Luke ■ .Arnold. ■.■.'. ..:. M'Laren , .Buchanan' ... . (..• Mander '..'. ■, Buict . Massey .'. ' dark", Newman Davey Nosvroithr . Dive.. Okey . J. Duncan . Pearce .• Fisher '■'■■■■. : Phillipps Glover Poole • Hanan. ■•'■. '•' Russell Hardy Soott Herdman Cr. M. Thomson Herries J. C. Thomson . Hine Witty ' : Hogg '■ ■ ." - "Wright .Jennings 1 Against tho amendment (25). Brown R. M'Kenzio v 'Buddo T. Mackenzie Carroll Millar Colvin. ' ■■■ Poland Ell Rood Field . Ross Forbes '~; Scddon Fowld9 Sidcy ' - Hall Smith Hogan Stallw.ort.hr Laurenson To Rangihrroft Lawry Ward M'Donald , INCOME TAX DEPARTMENT INQUIRY.

':/: : ' ; ;. INFORMATION ASKED FOR, : C-':'. ' •;'■ .:■ '_■ Mr. ALLEN /'asked I for' information ■ about... ;: changes in the' Valuation Department, aid also,/... in connection with, the recent inquiry. ..... '.-.';.., . The Prime Minister's:!' aninot going, to say •..:. any more about the inquiry \ than I have dono already. .'",,-: '■'•/".'■■ ':■''..',''•'""' '-\ ' Mr. Allen said the House .was voting salaries,, '- { and before moving a reduction it was" desired, to give the.Prime,Minister'an. opportunity.ior give information as' to the' Department. ,'■:■'.,,, ! . The PEIME ,MINISTEE said that the'savlnjeffected in connection, with.,tke Land and,■ In»j ... come ~-/ amounted/to about' .£28,000. That, did,,not ..in- ..-,■ elude the'-Stamp Department. „■■-.• :...;" -.!■'/'>,--.. Mr. PEARCE (Pateii) said- the . Government- ,/. was. discharging a'.third, of the staff bf'.a.De-. .' partmen't on.".which:it was- going".to-put/more',, , : work. The'inadequacy/'of. the 'staff was shown ■, ", by. the fact that,over 'JB2OOO was required' last" .' ■year-'for. extra valuers.'' Good salaries should be' .', paid'' to:, valuers,:-/as otherwise, they, .might easily be'-got at. • .. '' .'. ~,,.; ',''•...' Mr. WEIGHT moved •to . reduce: the first item of "Commissioner of Taxes and Valuor- , General .£400,". by JCS,- as an indication '.that i,., definite statement, was required from the. Government in regard:to the recent 'inquiry,, in- the Land and Income'.Tax Department,, The rumours currant were very circumstantial.,-. : It was stated that the Commissioner of Taxeshad been lending money virtually; to himself •..., on a certain property in the city, which had'' : boon valued 20' per J cent., higher than the Government'''valuaho'bJ:': ' - ; '/ .-•'■ ',':'■■.• ,v:Mr. BUICK ; (Palmerston); said the rumours; - 'thatwere current wore doing the Department; more harm' than the truth "would do. \ ' The Prime Minister: I can't help thafc ■■--.■• ,-■■■' "Mr. ■' HEEDMAN (Wellington North) endorsed, Mr. Bui'ck's statement. No member of the Op-• : position wanted to get information as to. any private business/but the Prime Minister could. easily' give information as to this important Department of State without mentioning pri-;. ; vate matters. ' :: ."-, /' ' / ■ ■'•*]:'.'■■': Mr. Glover: You'll never get a bettor gentle- V man to fulfil the -position of; commissioner.''-.. ■■■'. : Mr., Herdman': That's a point I'm coming; to. -; In, fairness to the commissioner, the Prime./ Minister should, say what. the. exact position-, was. If thore had been no misconduct a gross, ■ injustice'was being done" to an officer whose exceptional.skill, ability, and organising capj- .--, acity had been ■ testified .to by two judges.- • The Prime Minister! What about the Court ." cases? ;t '~: ..--■:.'.'' - ■'.':.'.'■'"■'■ Mr. Herdman said the House had no infer* : mation about the Court cases. ' "he Trime ;; Minister should not get angry. > ■•'•' , 'Sir Joseph Ward: I'm-not'angry. lam ■surprised. Ho could not- give more. informa-., - 'tion than he'.had done,..'--

Points of Order. ■ - Mr. ROSS (Pnhiatua) said there had been ; inquiries in ,tuo past in regard .to almost all the Departments of Slate; and ho was suipribcd that it should: be urged; that the result ot such inquiries,: which wore neco«sary. in' all coun-.tries-from tinio to time, should, be laid on the table of the-House on every occasion. Thoy would havo findings of inquiries tabled every day.'He: believed the why:. this case had,been, singled ouUanil-rpublicity demanded was that certain membiJis .'were anxious to get behind the:private business Of people in thlß country. ("Rubbish," "Nonsense.") ' . Mr. Herdman: Tho statement is unworthy of-a'member, of this House.' ! ; ;■.•■. , Mr. Ross,raised a point of order?in regard to this remark: >.., .7 '■'•.'. , Mr..Massey raised a point of order in regard to the statement by Mr. Ross... ' Mr. Ross said ,ho thought '. Mr. Heidman should apologise to him. for the remark made. The Chairman ruled that Mr. Herdman was' wrongr n using the remark he, did, and that Mr. Ross was. wrong in imputing a motive to either a party or; another member. Ho asked both' members to withdraw, the romarks. .-• Tho .-withdrawals-'were made, and tho Houso recovered its serenity. -.. '..-. _ t Mr, Ross,.said" if the: claim to information ill this case wero persisted in, he'would insist on tho'Prime Minister lnyinjj on, the table tho reports of all Departmental inquiries that had been held during the year." Mr;Massey: Will.you.tell us what tho other inquiries wero about? ~ ,\ ...

Fragmentary Statements; / .';!;';' : '_.,;'■ ' . ;.;'..: '/•" v.Mr.:BUCHANAN (Wnirnrapa): urged tnat «•'•;:;' fragmentary statements which, had been mado by the Prime -Minister could: not bo considered ■'/'. sufficient: information.! There was Just : aa • ■ . much/'necessity. for 'giving information to, the,.;; > Houso .on this ,matter as vhen.ji • report- was ■ :;:. made on the state of tho,Police-Dopartment.V.:V. ; Tho PRIME MINISTER, repeated that the'■".•, -; request ■■was 1 for him- to. dis'closo, private business.. (Cries of/"No.") Mr. Herdnian might /.:. talk his rumours till ho" was'black in tho'fade,: ." but lie was hot going ;to;put himself into tho.:.'".': position of being told afterwards that, lie had',: done ; a dishonest thihg in making, private. in-V'y .formation, public. .Tho Government was.not. ... interested -from ,tho .point. of :viow. : 'of..'any,.';■.: charges that might bo made,"either directly; or X indirectly.'." Ho had no. objoct'in. not doing ;;■■'■. what;was, requested, but the"fact ! that ; .two..,■ ' .judges were appointed ought to; show that 'the,'. j ; : I'Government.', "realised ■.tho .importance'', of.-not; ;. : ; ■having minor officers.inquiring into matters.of';'•?■'•■ a'taMiig' Department "whore "a, high! officer'was.:" concerned.: Why: had Mr. IJordmari dsked: if ' ; ; : any. action's:.hn'd been taken? : .'.■ : •,';'. '4' , '■Mr. Herdniani'l did not ask',: ■ .. >' : v> .-■■' The PRIME;MINISTER/', said,' hoMind' ox.';:> pressed grave .doubts as to whothor: certain -~'.; members did;not;.want tho business of private:':'? .persons toposcd,;: : ■,;,;■:.;.":■;' .:;-■.:■:■ ■;., :::;\- .:_.::.

f ytp;:( j^'Ma.ssey-vYou /oright-iiot-.to /say. that.' - ,'.■; ; r-^ i;: *-'W : ■•" that #& -:'?/-■ Y*png anyone'?..private Jahd 'did S'H $■'■ aoty/inteha;-to do -so.'-v-Thb .-■ Government '.'had t&M m? 00 -'^-proppr. thing'in regard/toithomatter. f «i& iff j'l'nncinalroharge';'against tho';' head of - tho Svi^^^M^udges;;'^':^ ''i.t.-^\^." i;••■'■':-' ".""'-.'-' .■:,■. ■• % '-■ :'.-';■;.W-:; -'hbt-!lay,; that; part: of ■ tho 4 ;'>fofe f a>arliament ?;-A^:?",-. >J+. ,;;,;, ss T v N ; : 'Minister:i Bccauso I can't.: .'lt £.>--•.. the .secret .and. private affairs of privato |v:-:-,. : ..peppia. ..He. was surprised'that-members.should |r:.: It was-the g;. ,-:.most;indecent'.thing,.hb'-had.seen.sinco ho had' I s " :7:|? to v; ln j tho 'House::. If: Mr.': Massey .was:vin •Vfffi flis.position he' could not .'do. it. "Lot the 'House f:->-';fi"- ca TOr-thp.resolution and be done with if? coni;7.v:;;Wded the Prime? Minister, f'and let the House {: "*;''«; a J c ?l ) t ; -the,responsibility of. tho■:position''instead £:''.S;.i&M ;me. ~:';■/.;.:::;•'■'./.;>,.';:;-,•:;..^.,, ;; ; : -'.■ ,<]- r ■■'■. ■,,•;■.- ;, ;^)S;:M^ f Massoy^ te ; :'MJjr; i :Massey/:.bmphaticailyV contradicted ! '. the ?;r-^>.^™KP e , li v'"»at members of the Opposition were : :a?>;si;°'ff'JF9 ll3 ,P'' v l'ryinc;.intb private ,alfairs; None :•«-. ; -i--£ S a h "d-the slightestintentibhlbf so doing, ha,dXtheir:dnty:;toVconsidcr, ; just::tho y ,?;.; same ; : as., the. Prime ;Ministor,: and a very' uh-g,;..;.vp.iea3ant;cluty;-devolved on .them on' this occa-:i:i*'i;d^^''^i;ll'^;-tllo:;veryr friendliest "feoling-'.to-' ;i./ ; :fS^HV Wr V :H^es^: y Ho - hfla always deceived %S: -• K'S tm '^.<?ourtcsy.'from;hitn, and;personally H " Wm:;'He;did hot ;-;;;:;; vJ ni Pk>tho:;Pnme>Minister: realised how very <->''^''f-,??K, Ous * ;';^.-' ;:.■■ • •;; : •'. --'■-■: "■ ; -V'if* l ? ril?10 Minister':.'Ohy "don't I! '<>" -■•'-.•- K: ■ ;%ssey^said:;. ho -ill ■" thevjminds S ?ii,Mb .; : vPep!e.;v-:.Tho' - inquiry iV ;-.;CP*^.'.:;'rip.'vU'. cohsiderablQiy;; importa'nbei;l '''. S: 'v : ff?-;'- ; i'.'Wo'i appoinited Z::hi:-&:-{fim.£it. :>>Kumours^.lh > :;regard' : :to- the s ; grpwing.;likei ; : the ; proverbial ; snbw •: .ftWv;-£^t"r^-''ne..conrM'.;,he.^was ; " £ -'■■ t.• f. 1 !^ 6 .; Minister.;;was;. simply; making, the ■ posi--.;;rt^iv tm ;^vorse.;^ai; everiing thoy:had,heardvthat' ; > ; vv.;;-°'?w ; yinquirieß>had;':bOen-,heldV '■■ Ho knewVno•yn:'■'■:.;Jn,Ppf;;*t all-about;any snch inquiry., If such ~,-;■., naa.been"held, he':boiild:see'n o reason"why.the v -'•- '-' m? .- *o">d not ibeKlaid beforefParlianieht. tvi''"..':- '*" e -' m ost seriousi.inqniry, that had been held' fi:; ; i'. ■'■:■ m ■■ was'-.thb I 'inquiry^inte:ihe V^ : -^.'-'i2 n '? £ . ui<;itlont would- wellscmeai. : ' i:", -:;' > bj;;;w;hat'vtook -.place ':bn; ; :that;occasion''.' .-'•'.':• **; .Pisher:; ! l renSemberat;-'-' (Laughter:) ; '•' '& : '';.;':-- M ?,v -the.;whble;of:;the documents land 'the', v.;.;:,.,-evidence -were -laid-before- Pariament. ■'■ :•'.'.; ■•" '■■?>. i- ; -&} r .:Josoph:;,.Quite'.righti;ii;.:'.::. 'a ;.-'.:k .: ■:- -.-;, ■J> Ma 'f«y, , '*V«i t .'.on .toKiy that if it f.:v';:.«gnp;..on,;that;. occasion-it/would, be right on ii:-;.;.-the;.present bbcasiori..:>Ho .'did not caro who S;h. r' w^^' he ' "bad of;the';Department concerned. ■'■ ■! ■■:.:.■ - ■:: '■ Allele -knew; : .was :.that:. the-' man. in tho. street-I -.fe.^Wjd^that.jpors'ohs./in^higH;'places /were/ iin-,,,;:.:--..plicated;'in-^^^the/irregularities. >'He'.would not ':;';»'; go \any;. than;tousay.:tiat::il»: : matter s V,: vcouitl,.nbtibesalldwed;tb-stay, ! wher'o it : was at -.';-:/ '•'•-/ .>■■ :'■■■■-■/■/;.■■ ?&1 v-''"'.^'^^^ l -' connected. |:"J';?;-i : : /-Wttt, the Government? ■;:; '':^! ,i^i-'M r '-: M *Bwy'i-'.Pe6ple''Mniieetc'ii-witli the'Lcgisi,:'r- t ;r;la*ure; ; ' : /;'"-ii : "S:.---. : - ! -' ; '-' ; ■/-'■'- r';,'.-''--'-'«'. - //.•' /:;'- : r-.;KSi^:j66ephii :: Ali:icignt:v;v;? ';(-;:;--;./:: Mr- ;'Witty.V;.^hy; , don't.''y6u''name:'them ? :k : ■ -'■' / :'Mr ; :'Massoy.:;'l.-ahi' : not'going.to'be drawn: "•'•■'• M V- : ; : : ■;■ wrj Joseph -What; branch of - tho -Legislature?, ••:,' :;i;Mr.;t Massey:; You ;wbn't= give me ■'. any ■ infor^ : "'.-:;.;.;;Biahon.;;-.'Why.;should ;I:give'.-'you. any?"/ ;;;;;: y^'MK^ Eoss:>rarsed;ra'';pbiht/' of border /as^to \' : -iwapthec; 'Mi,: t Ma^^j:yas'viiot'mbkiiig.' > a;'ge)leral' : V ;':.:;:;accusitiott'against members,of.-tho ?:;V';-'^^neJ/01mrmau:;;lf;;Mr.::;Massey; , reflects'ibu ;v.s,':'.-/'his;branch,-he is butJbf^brdori-and reflections' ;?;«;;';panuot;;';bovmade'.bn members' : >V6f'■'.!:thb /other t:--i:.''i : BToieh:;' :'>/; , ;:-^'J-::''r;i-//:-'--:/;/-.:-. : -. :A;iX , ;'/^Mr^MasseyrOf;coursej/i;a ; m:ri6t rejecting'on' V;///-:J'he,;Legißlature;/I/am/-3nst. referring' to- the t :^ ; rumpurs^hat'-are^i^ ; ; i .;:4;v.:Three/ : Cpu'rses;;6p , en/;^;/:f:^;/'v r/;;i;/::^;/^uming; ;: 'Mr: ; 'Ma^y; ; 'r:-'-'•', -:• P«atbd'to.' be:.thre j' cbursea'iopen' to the Gbvernla'y'.the;repbrt ofVtho-judaes.-iwith'-y;.;;:';r.:out'-the_namos,ton.the table of the; House;-(2) theTrimo -Minister: to ; tell' tho 'House 'if- any/ i;r.T.'/:.v..Conrt.eases'are.:pehding;, ;: for. ; iii,'that oveut'bb of ■.'a'dvisirig''-Mr: : B'.''-.' Wright'.to n withdraWjhis ameh<lni'eht; 'or ; (a)-fo;f jkK; : ithb'TCpbrt' to/'sbine K'.'. i ;'';* BS P o hsibl.o member,on' the Opposition sidb.;'. .' ~:,V~y,/.'--U9rernien^ .%'.v.- : XSir ;:JoSoph:.'.Theh -why ■ members on :/ : ;v,y.;the:;Governmeht side ! not;seb'it? : ' : ..--•■ :^r ;':Massey: liave: no'; objection: /If 'you do .■',;'•; ;,:/iiot'; adopt-:one/of'.thoso you'wilt : make ■^ i ;'S->*':ro'iStaSe.■;"' ■ :^-y: ' i 'i : V.• ..■•■ .The '.p,rime:; Minister - : Said:vthat' : :he/ thew" his/ /;.,«::, duty.-'iand h'e'did'-Sot'-waht/'tb'-be'tbld'by-thb ■ : l % /,;Vs : UPitill: l 'hb^ ,A-;'":/.,db r s'bi.to.'Jthe end..-;Hei:was'.:nbt : gbjhg- to, ; be' ; a '■Mi-$P$S'^ -te/:feeeihg''Jthe private/affairs;;of anyone '/'J: V.'. übing..-j.b.u'siness/ r '.with; the /Department/placed' ;-:.:/•; before■ the^Leader-of."the'Opposition;o'r aiiypn'p' ';-//;/ else./; Ho;'was, l ]n'btvg;6ing''to : sfato./whbthef-a'ny /■;':• /;;-■. casbs 'wei ; wo'uld'inot'bb' right 1 ;•;-;/;.' :/to ;/db; : .soi/:The:resp'onslbility.'''was''6h'''memb'eb' : :. : :/.':'.','./oi'. .the. Opposition 'tOj' do.'what, .they, 1 thought' ■./L'-H.prbper.'f/.'Meithbr :himself,;nbr"^^ ; ariy .member7bf ; ; ,; % ; .the.'GbVernmont/had ■ ever, interfered':in matters ■ .;;• /'-. concerning';'the /Department;;. 'If 'th'e'/'House <le-' /:.-:f-.-; eided;; that i the report "must ;;ba' latd an :: tho: ; ''(•::;,vtable;.;bf the/'House./'sbmeone'else: might -lay •.;- : ' : ;;-,' ; ';>:;;J -.Mr:.HEBDMAN/Wasvreferrihg/to l tho-Primo ;,:;/;;':- -Minister'siiririness,;- when'; Sir 'Joseph -interject-' Y.r?-- , ; /.edV "If; I';was ; as; jelly-backetL.as''ybu -I f.should', .'■iVVi-.-'iliave,:no' firmness.":-/*/ : '■}■■:.%■■ ■' .-'-fl-.--.; v'/'/■';'i : ;sJr:>EHODESi:(EUesmere)' , "(iuesUo'hcd--.tlib' : /;/;;: ,;;terms'?jelly-b'ackedi''.;-butxtho; Prinib ; ' I Minister, -.v,/;'-, .replied .that'.if.ithore.was any.hafmiih jelly ho ,fj:'-!'- ■'>, had /never ?heanl: of : i ?/ '■'-■<£!$//'.*■: ■' ;':*;- ;. , ' , '.:-:-.'.': Btef- v could : 'give/Boro6iinfbrmatibd'without puK :/^'/: T 7lishiiig.-priyate :jnatters,',;:isir i Jbseph:.Wa'rd -'-had '//;' ;-. : iaadb',ho .promise';that he-wonldevef/'givb tho' -//;/ ; .'/ information:,.^^/IKwas.-the/duty' bf.membe'rs.ras / A ■:'-; tin; the'-, -nublic,.; to ..insist -; on the;, inrgivbh;; *$$£■&%'■•■■;■ ■■ii:-:^;y-i- ------\ Y;l;C,Remark's',by;; Wr^Fpwidsi^ : ; // ; . : : ; /l;o#e':Hbu:/a/p!6wLDa;said!that ; the identins;';.;.,/,'cation;.of .'privtttS?matters = .iii.'tho.report would; ;/"!<■/; be; just/as /complete ;if/tup/names/ wero excised ■; :,.;;/ : .-as:ir ■they;;wer6leit':in.-;'''He. Ivished to "confirm: '//j.'/.thb-Prime.-Minister's.'statement.in'that.respect. ; j. r ; ;.-ThbVt'act. / . o t/. , the:;DepaTtmoht'.;.beii;,ii; : ,a : 'secret' Vyh ;■ Department i was? sumcient. ".reason,'; whiy;:" two .•,\:ft;-'/.:jnages''should'.bp".asked:'to;make'thb' , 'ihquii7.:

:;y;.v^;flurAou^ ;'■■ >:-,;;- Mr;-.Wright;, in ; tir3iiig that"the rumours.should .'•ivv.'; be \clearcd-:up,'haurshowii'^himself:'zealouß\'lor '.';-' V. !thb..,ho'nbur;of;the.:legißlature.,=.-.^"»;^ [ :' : '<::■■:-'. '■■:<. v':.;.': r-Tllr...'ALLEN.'ipbinted-iout that'.the: member' ;•.;.;/;..'..'ennh'e iOpposition.vsidoV'liad!>'n'ot'',disclosed .the' '~:;; ' ,,''rumoars;. smqo they iWere.xbmmoh'talk; .-'The :,;',;■,.'. Prime;.Ministcr.'.couldut least niakeia gehbrai '.':,;:; statement setting '. forth;' the'-,nature'-'.wof-''the ,',H-;" .charges,'.^which;v;had?,. :.;4>yv, the' -;::;:.,;^judgeS;;,>;^a, ; partly' ''-,:'■: fiubstahtiated.;: ,To r -:say: 'that ~,•';; ■;•', <„ ; ; ,-woi-,still mvestigating,',wa's:one;way:- to shelve ,-,;'... inquiry.', ..Buroly, ; the.judges';investigation had' ; ,':-..'';• -.■■-:' ;K-'-:-..' ; -.':Mr/■liAUßßNSON::'(l^tteltonj ; ;'asse : rted 'that' ,::•■-'. ■:, it. ivas; the -business, of.-the, Department to raisb' ~ ;S - v/three-quarters'of ;a-miUionVof .tdxa'tioh'frbm the ■ ,■!. ■'. ■,' .woiilthiest class. in tho -community, ■ and' there- ;,;'• ";f6re;(it::yas:to:thb.,interest'' of;this- class ; 'to-' -.:;■'- ,,; blacken ;and to 'tho'. ~.-■.-; -:;utuiost'of. .their -ability.'! VThoy,'.were?doiri" it" .. ;i;.,;, thfough • thoir,, representatives; in 'Parliament.-■;;>■:■■:..'^M^yMasser•;Are'ypU-speaking ; of.'the ineln. ;,', ■•:•.-.'■ bers:on this-side .6f',"'the: House? ' The" men :::■ ; -whd ,aro"blackeniiig'--tho •Department -are ■ the. ■'■; ; -'-; ..Goyernmentrin ,'oflice.'' : f, : v'r''f'.■.:.'■-;•'•■•-■■■^'"■'. | -:..■;'■; • \t-;;1 / ; Mr-;''lanrbiisoh ■-'•tferit'.ion j to "amrm : «tHn't ; "this ;.'.;:;.';-ffas:;a.;Departmentivliieh;-lent':money'at':' low , -': ;^c?#:fftf;slMh**»:*nctoyistiß- ; ..;.: ; :.mtoes.y.. The'men-at <-,■; ■:•:,;;.ieriabhng-vborrpwers- tovke«p clear of'the 'legal :.;:-.Bhark : ;.and deprive .'hihivofVpliuider.' So they ;;:;.,.';-■'kneif l ,the,^la^.-ir4prtßtcd- ! in J vblackeninr:;the ;:'.;ir.l)epartmeßt;vHejWished-to;giTb-'his : testinioiiy ■ ,':;,;td sthe' mogmficeht Jnft'nner; so far: as' h'o 'could .■;;:■ v :Wdge,"'in: which;;MriHeJwhaa conducted i the' ■■■:,V-. : -DejWrtmenit.',--.:- 1 -, <-.v'.'c(, • •'-■:■'•:;• s-'-' :--■',■- V v \:: :-Mt.',;GLOyEß;(Anckkhd';Ceirtral) 'also 'paid ,':-;'. tnbu-te-to ;';tne*'bhara6t«"'-nud' ability of Mr" ■'•.'• y' !'.Hfey^;;;and; : ; «xpressed;ibis!cbnfidenco ! that he' .;;,;:/; would ; be. -.completely " from' ■'• the '*'.': '.-: charges: uiade against,him;-^ : : ; ;' '■'•:■■' ■-'■ - ,:/;,-; ;:;.Mf.; ; -B'tICHA^AN:-;edid-;he^had-'alwaysi niet .' .;; with:-courtesy.>;and'attentibn from'the' Uopait--i'.Uv--;!.-.'men4j;--anu it:was;absurdvto:su"ggest thnit ho had -. ,;, : -■ any: ihbtive,:iVhich"would lead him to" blacken ■".y- K-.;thp; I)epartment^«r\its;.head,.;;rn;-:';:.;':: ; ;;, :■: ■;::.';,'■ : : : Adjlances \;;::,;'- to a case ■ .:'/;•' .niehtiOned: by,-him .previously; fu the House, ■■:•■• jn:.w>ich a: ; :iban'of' -,'was~'stated :-to" havo „::'-been: mado,',by>thfe; Advances,: to Settlers Depart-,'r:.,-:.:mbnt.-in...wrorig.circumstances...He' hoped that '■'- ;--',vC flu-ihvestigatioh;. ; ,wOttld -bo I', made into the i ,'lf .he .wore-a trustee ;. '. he more-think: of ;ioiiding the money : von;tho,security presented:than.ho would think ■■'-.'■-'.-'.;; :;:Hevwouldiihot give ;to-morrow the amount.that\was;adv'anbcd:;oh.the'security by. ■;■.-.,''/; ,: .' .way,,if;mortgage*:,; ; lfiaicbmmissibh wore set *?• on ! d: ™,P i:e P, ared ,to:gb into the matter.: -;;'■ ; :vHe'',did'inpt; T make::;chargc3/nnle"ss' ; he-was pre- ;' -';, pared's.tbs i prbve;j;them;;::Thci'o.::'wero other ;; •': .- to,;the';Advance's''tb;Settlors' - Depaftnient which,:in his;.bplnion;:would'not ' \.•••'■•■■■'..beflr thelight-oi'.ddv;.-,:^,:.;':.:?: ; ;'.H;;.\.•■',■•.: .:: K v:;-?: ;The:^EmE;MraiSTEß : isaid;that:when:Mr;> ; ■': Diye!':ttrst;mado;ithiS."chargei;a-:month or six ;Y/;:--\ weeksV:before,-he,(Sir : Joseph/.Ward) asked him ; :;-, for particulars,' but'.though'.he'had'since spoken ,■-:'.■:-:■ to;-; Mr.' ;Dlye.'Jthe';latter.;hadi'liever-'made tho ;*#;' : Bl]Bhtest'iintta Vi-.: ■':: ; iabd'.Mr.' ; Div'e-knew; ! Ai ?;?'?:-:it^':he;fewas:;;vwithholding,';the vfacts'- from fc'.K-l^hini/tand respont..,i,^v..,,.,^u^WCJ . J^.:,i . i^: ..-- i ri„^!iJ.a-.::Ul,'„..i'.n~™-:-.

inont' ' to.■..■investigate .-'it./ The,. Department had lent nine millions of money in. this country, and -advances''had been 'received just -as -easily by Opposition'as by Government-supporters if :the;-securities', were right.. . It was politically disbredltnblo to suggest that political considerations had entered into tho operations of the Department.. In" ordo'r. to gc£ tho information. from Mr, Dive: regarding tho alleged ;lban; of; ieisoo he -would say that he doubted 'the •accuracy'of the fncts. '.■' Mr. DIVE said. that if; the Prime Minister would lay all the particulars from the Government point of view alongsido the particulars which, ho could • supply) lie would accept tho Prime-'Minister's'challenge.'.'''He would ask: Did ■■■. the /.money go through jtho". ordinary, channel? , - •.;■■' ■ '.....'"-

v .Tho .'-Prime. Minister: You should givo. mo all information on the point. :■"'■-.' , Mr., WITTY (Riocarton) declared that during the recent depression- Mr.. Heye'e : rendered yeomen service to the people of New Zealand.' ;,Mr.'PISHER (Wellington Contra!) said that 'there was no desiro on' tho-part of. the Opposition to cast aspersions on the Department. If; Mr. ;Heyes. was prepared to sit under tho report, without asking that the facts should bo J made, public that was his ..look .out. - If the roportjwasiofsiich a nature that it could; bo divulged, he could 1 not ■ understand why it was being' withheld. . '■■',-."'■■'. >, The .:PEIME'.. MINISTER said it might - bo. inferred from some of the members that somo mombor. of the Government was .concerned in; the.matter. - Ho wished, in reply, to say thrit no .member of -the Ministry, .privately, was -directly or-indirectly connected with the inquiry, ;-; Then: again,',' be ' wanted'.- to 'make it -clear..-'that.-, as.;-the outcome; -,of. -..the .investigations' 6bme matters .were. -.still:'.in;c6mplbtc.V';'Mr; ,r Heyes.: 'had; "said; ; and still'.-maintained; 'that ' -ho' . had '.always asked in a .straightforward honourable manner. In regard .'to theso iiia-ttors'. there, was..a differ, ence of opinion'-between a depa.rtmen'tal.officer, and {he .commissioner.. As that was., the base it would'be premature for him to step.in. Ho added •...'.'How does'.'any member -'know, that his affairs were hot' the 'subject of inquiry?".",; :.,Mr.. Massey:. We don't- know; that: is. what ;we;-,waa;t.to know.' .-; : -■-.'.-.7-■','-'. ■' .-'•■- Mr./Wrighf Makes a Statement. 'SMrIiWEIGHT (Wellington.Soiith) said that :as;"'the ;Primo. Minister had. refused to-.give iuy'information, he ; would tell members, what had come under his.not.ice.Eow.ould refer to .a.'matter in'-which-Mr. Heyes.and no. one else .had had a part. Mr. Heyes, ho.was informed, .asliead : of. the and Income Tax Depart,ment,'bought a .property. ..on..the .'Terrace _.at . thp .(-ibvernnienf-valuation price,'-.£1540. .. That. ; was all .riglit.' He wanted - then to get a loan from the Department; ind ill the ordinary bourse ho-'would -'have; been entitled -to'Va" loan of ,£925. But apparently : ; Mi. Heyes was n'bf-satisfied with that'amount ', but. wanted.':'.£l2so.v',How, didiho-get:it? Ho,was told.that Mr.- Heyes got Mr;'; ; Dugdalo, '.an inspecting ',- Valuer;-in;:the .Valuation' Department, to' value .'the .property, with'-tho:'.result: that'.it, was; valued; at .£2200. Ultimately,--ihe.Department advanced a '.-. loan. of r ,£1240 on the property. He 'wanted to know if .what 'ho.had .booii',told was- true. -:-That matter 7 did not-concern anybody elso ,but Mr.. ;'Heyes;y /It; was a;:fair 'and r :6(sharo.; issue;'it was..oither' truevor.' untrue. ',:■ Then ■.again; .he; Was /further -.informed,': that' ribnp ,'pf-j the.Joan ihibney's-hadibbeu 'paid off; and. wero/ rib\v ,on the .books of. tho .Department.': He* would; leayo it .to-the'Prime; Minister ito say :.wh'ether what he -had-.said -was. true .or ,nbt..; : ■;•■';/.;;,:-'/-.'.;'-..

■ Mr. HOGAN (Wanganm) averred that there was a diffcronco between tho valuation-for taxing purposes and tho valiie on the opon mar- ~ ; 1 *' i f •'' **•' ' Mr. Wright: If a man bought a.property for ..£1540 no' loan company would base ,a loan .on another price. ' :, ." ■ , Mr. Hogan: Yes. , Mr.'Wright: Thoymust do.things differently in Wanganui than they do in Wellington. Mr. Hogan': What I say is corrcct.' , • . Mr. Wright: Wliat .1. want' to know is ,whev ■'ther''the: transaction' was fa' clean "one. .Jf: thd judges', report, is laid, on, the ;table, h am; rare th'ey 'mllliavo. something; strong.;to' say Jir're-, gard to.the transaction.> ; " The Prinio Minister said that no 'chargo mvblvirig': a transaction/of: tho' kind had' formed 'the.'subjecti:of, s' ; Statement 'is .to 'what the report .would: snow on, | the .matter, was. therefore unfounded. '''.As;'a; matter .of fact, he (Sir Joseph) had heard ',a rumour:of • thi kind, but tho information fur-' :nished hiini'Was different -from* that which had been furnished by MrJ'.-Wright; 1 j. Tho,, proper, thing ,-ysa' for Mr.-.Wfigty, to* w'hotlier.his information w\u correct.' Tliere had "been' noi Government';, valjMion -of:the 'prbperty of X 2219. ' v"'".*''.' ' 6, 'f Mr. Wright: .£2200? v. '~->-;0; ;: .; v :■:■■■ • . Sir Joseph: -That is also-wrong., -1 jnight also add that tho certificate of .value., was signed.' by the former Valuer-General. '. , 'Mr.':.BLL (Christchurch ■South) pleaded for a cessation • of", the " baiting, of ..Mr. :: Hoyes."; 'Ho.ipleadcd that';another.Department: should; bo- criticised for a change. \ • Mr. WITTY • (Hiccarton) declared . that >it :wast not manly,'to kick JVi man'' who'.: was down,", and.dof ended ;the methods. of_tho ; Valuation Don.irtment. ' : , Mr., WRIGHT said that tho. property he had; referred: to ..was'.bought'. through; ftcommission , agent; by: Mr. . Heyes: for: .£ISOO, and : nobody : :elso' would - have * received ;a r : loan to tho extentwhich he did on tho property.' ' The' aiu'sridment v.-as'lost by 40 votes:tp '21. j. Mr. MASSEY. denied that tao Opposition had desired .to'.bait'or'persecute,Mr.': Heyes;*;Ho, .sympathised: ,with .Mr. 'Ileyes's position, ' but- : if tho Government wanted to' maintain for tho Department the confidence of : the public Ithat was '.necessary; to .'its success, it .could; only-.be (by; throwing; :tho ; 'light of ;dayi on ' what was occurrins. v 7 : :■ : ,Tho PRIME MINISTER, in reply to, Mr. Alien;; said': that' tha ; total- saving. sinco ; tho ■ .?rcf trenonment.schemo'was. inaugurated was .iC303,-'-003.,,1n Teply.to;Mr; Okey; who asked that exofficials'of the Valuation Department .should' .•be>!66nsidered:'when 'ivork was available :: in' that the Prime: ' Minister " said that , that was. promised, when tho men were discharged.' . During . the recess they 'i were 'go-' ..in'g .'to be'(engaged; in another .'.dircctioijV than: taking men back... ' '■■}/[: •. ;..4!'" '• •At 2.30 a.m; tho whole of tho Inland,Kflvonuo Dopartment was passed on tho voices, ij ,; : ';i : : (Left sitting.).' : FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL.'

OUTLINE OF MEASURE. V'Tho'newjFriondly Soaetics'Bill, aticording to the' memorandum-.of 'the law.-draughtsman; is iii substitution;; for tlw .'•Friendly Soeioties' Act, 1903,: wliioli, is 'a re-enactment •of tho ' R'iendly Societies : Act; :- 1882,: ■ as."amended'<in:. 1880..and . 1892. 'i'lie Bill incorporates such provisions of the Imperial Acts ,of 1896 and 1908 as sc'om 'applicable to New Zealand, as well as several now provisions for; improving tho financial soundness; of the.-societies.'. 'The classes of : so-. cioties -to. be registered are: slightly 'altered.' "Cattle-insurance societies" '.are omittod, as no such societies havo ever mado, use of the friendly societies statutes in New Zealand. Thei. provisions of the. Act of .1882 ,os to "specially authorised" • societies have' been restored. Friondly "soci&tics may include among their' ob-: jects the guarantee of the fidelity of their officers tnd servants. ;'••■•

/ .In' future no.society" : or.branch is to.be regis-, te'rod, unless,th6' : :rates of contributions shown-in;-the rules.are certified!by,an,' actuary; -Any existing society or, branch having an adequato scale of: contributions may obtain, on''applied-; ■'Hon to the Registrar, an actuarial:certificate to I .that'effect. "No;amendment of the'rules:of :a society or branch is-to be registered until' an actuary has' reported' that the amendment doe's not .'■adversely'- affect the financial soundness of tlie society or, branch; . ;!.',;' '.Additional provisions 'as to powers of invest-' .mont aro.proposcd.'i Trustees; when investing money bn'tmdrtgage of land or buildings, must i not: advanco! moro than ; a, fixed proportion of 'the.-'value-if the' security, and: if any benefit funds are in future invested'in the purchase of. land or the erection or alteration of buildings wholly br .partly .qcenpied L by tho society: or branch, a specified rate of interest; ori the sum so invested must-be guaranteed by.the Society j or: branch:' 1 ..;;-;:: --,'■ ■:-. :':■ .'-'■■.-:' ; . ■■'■■''- ."■•' .; ■Money' payable -by. a friendly society to a. lnembor or on the death of a momber'is protected, against creditors in the same manner as life insurance policies. ■ The provisions as to inspoctibfl, and itho'settlement of disputes by arbitration have been extended in .accordance with the English and Now South. Wales Acts: Tho provisions in the Friendly ( Societies Act, 1908;. a- to "collecting societies" have been omitted as ni longer necessary, or operative. .