THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 675, 27 November 1909, Page 7

THE HOUSE.

'', NEW LABOUR BILLS. -- .House-met' yesterday afternoon tho Workers' Coißpoiisation ..for Accidents Amendment'Bill and t lndustrial Conciliatioa and' Ar-' Billvwere introduced ■ ] J i'. 'J'J 1Q - , Hon. J. -AJ.;, Millar and - read; a first time.' , ' . i^ :^^Ma^a Bill^(Hon;' ; yjj. A-'; £ [l 'W r Amendment Bill 1 ?*«- *•• Av\Mulm); wjre read -.a second time prb i6rma, and icferred to the Labour Bills Committee. , - k The Coal Mines Amendment Bill (Hon. R. Bill'; (Hon. it. ~ M itenzw), .were read .a second tinio pio forma, and referred.to:CffinmitteM. ' , ' 1 drew attention : :11^ , which .tho .Prithti Minister had ■. .Orderi.Paper -in "taking 1 numbers 11 and 15 (Mr Millar's liills) first, and th(Sn numbers 1 and 2 (Mr. M'Kenzie's Bills). • U ? L ocl'eved it wai dono to help tho Piemier -■ ?.*, . wtb which he .::had-;-faUen v tho;v previous vnight.on - Guaranteed Adyanc«Si Bill—namely, the division :an)Giidttieiit regarding sinking -Advances Bill was nnmher 3 on tho Order Paper. •■■■„ denied that lie had juggled "-with .tho.Ordor Paper, that ho .continually altered it. VST" : (Wairarapa) spoke ,> in .terms to Mr.. Herrie's. .' . :. v ! STATE-QUARANTEED ADVANCES. A GOVERNMENT REVERSE. ' , that, ' the : Advances ••Bill-should Vbe : -re-". - coMMitted, la-order- that certain further 'amend- f ; merits niigat be ctnsidered.' . ' . - Mr. SIDEY (Dunedin South) wid it would the-pnme -Minister ;.did not intend to ,aeeeyt, Bn L «mendment-earrled' ; 'on Ws'.motion' 'th&rioeal. -^^f^s h advisable; funds in regard to loans which were jiot . .Stote-Buar&nteed,.. There . were, ■ -he • said; socm..local authorities that hadnover gono -.to tn6 Government for assistance. It was unfair for,,thOjJioycrnment.to; wish to interfere with ■ • u 1 in cohncctioii ,;with.suclr loai^;: He.i Wed-that that was'not the object ef the recommittal. Mr. MALTOLM (Clutha) proposed an amendment .-whereby -Clause: C 3 would be ' open for farther consideration.- Ho;.said that-by making the, rats of : interest that was to bo charged the nominal,, rate instead of;; tho actual rate at trhtoii the money the rate would be ■ uncertain And in, the;blinds ef the Govprnnicnt. Mr. Hordnian's Protest. iniBDlfAN. iWellington North) asserted that,', tho- object of tho motion ' fof ; recommittal : : was to get .more monoy. He objected to tho motion- to recommit the Bill, firstly,. beeauso. lie ' -thought that Mr. Sidey's amendment,: carried - the; previous evening; Hwar ,a-';proposition of. a -very dosirable character. • He protected against tho Governments control of .sinking, fnnds, of loans which 'wera;-iiotglihranteed;.by ';th,e j Government,'•be-'' causei'tbd. ldgnl-'Wdie^..were, 'quite - capable of. .imd6rtaking tlit'ir'mvestm(mt.: He tlicught that tho-. Government; having . taken to. itself largo borrowing iioivere,,-was at a .loss to find money, nnd in : its,;desire,to obtain-money it- now proposed to dbatrnct, the. proposition of Mr. Sidiiy eons to leave in-tho hanrftjof the 'Publio Trtis-teo'-moro: moneys, -■ which: rwould be hvailablo by • tlio Government for the. purchase of debentures. ' 1 Mr.: MALCOLM'S amendment thnt Clause 68 •be recommitted as, well, as Clause 72 ' was lost Jvr Si vai&a to 22. 1

The J'RIME MINISTER said an attempt had been made to dolay proceedings. ■Mr. Homes: That's not so.■■'■'■: , ■ - Sir ; Joseph .Ward said members had exoroised their, brains ,to talk coherently on this matter, for-three-quarters of an hour before pho adjournment, because it 'was' bolidved that some of the Government mombers were leaving for: OhristehuTch ' that night.. (Opposition laughter.)Mr, Wright had "turned a 'compete somersault, speaking Against his action of tho previous night, What did Mr. Wright uccuso him of now?

Mr. Wright-.'Killing time. V The Frimo Minister deniod that lie was killing time. :.Neither had he "juggled", with the Order Paper.. There was no way of indicating on nn Order Paper an intention to movo that a Bill be recommitted. lie had'told a number of,,gentlemen tho previous night that ho intended., to recommit the clause on .which 'n watch amendment ; had; been carried. He had taken only four, minutes to have two Bills referred-• to • a committee, and this was called "playing ;wlth the. House." The whole of tho money i obtained by tho investment of tho securities of the local public bodies with the Government was :reloaned- to tho: locM public bodies'."How . couhl members . 'justify their .votes, to take away, a' portion .of that imoney from the Government, and.therefore from their own.local bodies?. .. . '■

■ Mr. Herries: It doesn't take it away .from thorn. ■ : , '■ Advantages of tho Proposal, :

•; The, Primo,.Minister; said.: that' that was what . was proposed, in the interests of four cities in the Dominion. A Sinking Fund Commissioner might invest the money in a picco of land .valued at- .£lO an aero more than'it. was worth. '.The of. somo sinking. funds in tho .past had been, exceedingly unsatisfactory, yet when; they had a law that removed theso • from suspicion, and put them on .a solid basis, it was proposed to give tho-investmenta to a local/commissioner who it ; was hot. pretended • could . get." as good security as tho ■ Government. -Ho was. astonished .at tho attempt-which had been' made to/. neutralise . tho great; advantages of that portion , : of the Bill which- dealt- with loans to local bodies.,' It was a miserable; absolutely absurd- statement to say that .the Government wanted tho money fr6in these sinking funds when it was trying to help . tho local bodies. If-the Government did want this money; which •it. did: notr-in the sense referred to, was it not justifiable, for it. to want the money to lend out again to the local bodies of the colony ? In rfcply, to "these outragOous statemonts_ as to wnat the Government was doing, ho referred members to Tablo.3 of tho Financial -btdtement, -.which .showed , that' in three sfectibns, alone, under- a, System initiated by hiiwelf, ■ thoro was already, accumulated in sinking funds -£53,C00, all within a very few years; ;■ ■. ; ■'-.v M r 'j WEIGHT (Wellington South) denied that ho had turned a somorsault, Althongh no had been with the minority on the division, he thought it was a wrong thing td attempt to.-reverso it by recommitting tho Bill .in the manner ..proposed by tho. Prime Minister. • ; . ihe ,motion .to recommit tho Bill was carried by 31 votes to 20. The Contested Point, to—^t MINWm moved.-that Section 72 jihould. be amended .to. provide that all local. authorities' loans, whether State-guaran-teed or not, should be required to be invested through the Public Tmstee in Government securities. BffiBIIIES, (Tanranga) denied the- Prime MinistCT s inference ; that , if 1 the clause : were- "?■. Wffdod it *ould injure the source ffom . which, the -loans -.to local jbodies were 'drawn; As,a matter of fact, the Publio Trustee had never lent sixpence under, the Loans to Lecal Bodies Aet. It would be found that the post office Was the sonrcefrom: which .the Loans to Lecal. Bodies Department ■ drew'r their funds. SIDEY, (Dunedin' South) deolared that if all,sinking funds bad.to be invested in QoVthe.local, bodies'would'hot reap as .much interest; the' Capital would be liaWe to..shnnkago-if: there-w'as-a "fall-in the' of Qovernm.ent secnrib'es nt- the-time of maturityvof /tho. • of' investment would ;bo increased without increased,advantiige . to., the local authorities. In view of - - the • even feehng: Of tbo Houso on the i question,' would the .Prime Minister ,ba, willing to-exempt the' -.tttaippalitits y, (rom':- the.' operations of tho Government's propossl? ■ ■ . All Wrong or All Rlglit.' -' . ' Jj Mr. BATHES (Auckland i Eyst)'Avas .'not" - ; ip •favour, of Mf.' that: 'if..the"' clause were amended the larger-municipalities .should. be •exempted.' •; It was, a' question; of principle; arid-if it s wa». ivrong at: all it ..'was wrong,all throusth. '■': J- ALLEN (Bruce) stated that the reason why. the "Prime -Minister'-wnntid 1 to carrf his amendment was. that it gave the Govern™«nt. tt ,n utilise : the.'mpneys. He flid • not ithink. sinking funds, were 'niore' secure in the. hands of. the .'Public than in the •comnfiissioners. •. -'It > ; walswell'that' it should, bo impressed on members that commis-' fiioners gave, up their time "without Recompense just ..for,,tho benefit of.; the: cities in which, they .wsidw.; '.The that was. being proposed l SW-A-■ !^SFi SW- - Did- the Pablio.Trustee do anything for love'?; Last ,year■ a -.copsidetablo' charge:was made by the Public TmstceMn 'conncction with r tho ad-' ministratien of-sinking fundi. ; r- .

:Mr. Fishor Supports tho Prime-Minister. '< .. Mr.- FISHER., (Wellington Central) pointed out that sinking fund commissioners were independent of the local.bodies,. There were now one,; million .and ;a.' ; quaKor'of, : accumulated .sinking funds. .;Ho could not eco 'why,.' Hie. money should not be placed at the disposal of tho Government, ' It . was his opinion that tho .Public Trustee could loncV out moneys cheaper ' than . sinking fund commissioners. Mi. LAUKEIsSOIV (Lyttoltfin) averred that' .the; Pnine .Minister's '.proposal. was in. the interests of clean local government. V. v •Mr. GLOVER (Auckland Central) referred to the investment /of tho sinking funds belonging to Auckland City Council. 'Jho' commissioners, there .'performed their duties 1 in Van-excellent ;maniier.'-;:V-'. '?■;;<v* v ! Mr. HOGG (Masterton) uphold.,the action of the Government, who, lie said, had a porfect right to tako control of -the 1 municipal as well ? s - general administration, and: see that morioy-' was invested to the best advantage. • -; ' . Mr. BOLLARD (Eden) deplored tho apparent tendency ot the -Government to centralise all power in its own hands. - Tho powers of local -bodies''should, bo :enlarged,Vand hot curtailed, The.-Government i'was - practically telling the' local bodies of. the country , that they were not fit- to. manage .their, sinking funds . themselves, m order that . . tho Government might havo about a million; and a.half of money to inVOSt.,: 1" - :- - I- • J- P- LUKE (Wellington Suburbs) ■quoted tho investments' of :the > Wellington" City Council's- sinking .funds, and urged that '1 a -broader view 'should be taken of the fnnc-' tions of local bodies,: and that they should bo hllowed to control their own investments. All tho securities in connection with tho Wellington City Council were absolutely sound. Ho would always vote against curtailing the .powers of local'government. . v <.v The Government Defeated. ' ? 1 The'Primb Minister's ! motion to amend the clausoback to its, original form was rejected by 27-votes to 25. (Opposition applause.) ■ , Tho • PRIME MINISTER then moved that the consideration of the report on the Bill be postponed till next sitting. day; : and this was agreed to. . :

HOSPITAL AND CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS. Tho Hospital, and Charitablo Institutions Bill was jecoinmtted, for the,'purpose of considering two new clauses in the schedule affecting the Tuarangx Hom«, Ashbhrton. : : Several membors congratulated the Minister on introducing snsh a valuable Bill. ' Mr, BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) said ho joined .-.with : Mr. ; Hogg' in - thanking' the mem-ber's"'for-Wellington,' and 1 the Hutt for tho broad viow which thoy took in rogard to thrrf. .portion of the mcasuro.which affectejl the Wai•rarapa "district.' Their ; attitude was in very marked . contrast to : what Wairarapa- had .'in former yoars experienced. The amendment to the law would be "an admirable, work. v After tho Minister-had replied, the Bill, was read a thiri} time, and passed. ■ LAND SETTLEMENT FINANCE BILL SECOND READING DEBATE. The PRIME MINISTER, in moving tho second.reading of this Bill, explained its provisions. Ho declared that sulhciont safeguards had been provided in tho measure. It must not-bo overlooked thnt tho oporations of tho Bill would not incrcaso tho indebtedness ot tho Dominion. Ho held that as a result oi it being put on the statute book, subdivision ond settlement would bo promoted. Neither the Government nor tho land-owners, nor' .intending .'settlers under tho system wore adversely- aifeoted by any of ■ tho provisions in tho. Bill. It ombraced ono of tho ' easiest .' systems- for 'ohteining freehold farms. There wero over ton million acres of freehold land throughout the country, of which a considerable portion would be utilised in tho way provided m the Bill. Provision wae made ufiiareby tho'affairs of every association would

ho ■.thoroughly scrutinisod. periodically. - Only in rogard to. non-payment of intorest on debentures -was there, liability .* on the. part of the . Govorninont. ' Until' one-third of the; purchase moneys had been paid a purchaser: could not* encumbcr .or part with his lioldiiig. with-: .out the consent of the-Land Board or Minister tor iinancc. , In. tho easo of a purchaser failing to complete .his purchase, ."damages would be recoverable.., The amount to; be guaranteed by tho.Stato.'in any one year was half a .miillion. t If the wholo; amount were utilised in any one year, and the avorago pricb of tho land per acre, it would mean an addition Sft? ew .holdings • {having a total rirea of Jo,ooo acres), apart from - the .settlement that was going,on under qther systems. The fundamental principle of tho system was that, it tJ°J£ t settlement on Small areas. If the wero carried out vigorously, as lio expected •it to -; be, : it would groatly encourage closo settlement.

Mr. Allen Approves the Bill. ' ■Mr. JAMES AIjEEN (Bi-uce) paid he would be pleased the Primo Minister to pet the ;measure. through. When a similar Bill was before tho House last j'ear the Leader of the Opposition, promised his assistance to get it through,, and ho • was sorry .that -it was not thon. passed. '.He expected that; the chief position to' the Bill would come from the' but •' this- Bill did not infringe the principles ;of the leasehold :in any , ar the land was, concerned, it did not create any . freehold that was not in existence now. The Bill would provide purchasers for'large holdings, - and also for comparatively smalf holdings. It-would do so with the assistance, of the State; which he; thought was - satisfactory in; the circumstances. -It would also, encourage closer settlement. The Bill to . have been carefully drafted, and he did not think that its provisions could bfe used by. others, than, bona-fide wttlei's.-, Difficulties: might arise- in the forming of agreements buyers and sellers, but. he hoped .that that would not'be the case. Close settlement could go too far, as had been shown in i'ranoe, but that question did - not -arise in connection with the. Bill.. The proposed terms of. repayment; seemed to', him reasonable" terms. Une of the difficulties, in connection with the no doubt be in regard to its<ad—Q}jrjtion. \To a large extent its, succes3 pni pDn i • ??- : , lt ': mw"administered.', fk«i i • th° i door to a great ; many things that night or. might not be good; Tho association had .first- of. all* to. agree';..with : soine of r n ?L a ?? then_thev had to go to: tho Ministry j °S A( 1 0 i - day. - If the Government /of the day i administered; the Act fairly and justly he be- ! that it would be. a great but i i if it wa« used for/ pplitical purposes it might. 1 than.. good. •; ,■ 'Political colour *niU2v not b? considered, but everyone must be dealt.with fairly, and the,.conditions of the v « guide the Minister in deciding wnetner .a purchase should be -carried out or not. .He . doubted'.:very - much . whether- the number of-persons.: estimated- by "the Prime Minister would go on the land, under' the Act, beeau^e.of the.difficulties.first of. finding suitable 'properties, - and -then. of efFectine agree-.-buyers and sellers. - It .would • certMnly. be to the interests.of tho Dominion if some ,of the larger blocks; which, could 'be conveniently cut up for closer, settlement, wero so dividedi ; Hej had always been in favour/of closer settlement of a: kind : that .got: the .'best results .from ; the, land,-, and for that .'reason he. favoured. ; the' optional.; tenure. V y-,: •. r, i (lnvercargill)..' advocated . cooperative Cultivation I —a system' which- 'was in vogue : in Germany. '-The Bill would not tend to cheapen land; and;would be wolconicd by l& r f>P la«d-holders. : : There was .nothing to prejent-.purchasers, selling out.' to .one/ another ultimately, and - thereby bringing' abon- rs- - ; Under : the land 'for. settlements system the Gorerriment had - had 'to . pay through the nose for'every ,aoro which it : naa ;He would. havo i preferred to have seen:a Small Holdings. Act,-similar to- that which was'in force, in England.: It was .to be' regretted that- there-wew riot.enough leaseholders in- the Houso-to prevent the Bill from becoming law." ■■ '•

Other Members' Views. Mr. BUCHANAN,(Wairarapaj said that he had no desire, to'throw cold water :on, the' Bill. In regard to broken, country..in! theVNorth Inland,' difficulty would :be found in. getting sufficient >persdhs.:to 'f6rm '.associations. Suiveyingi brooding,'.. and ; legal expenses in connection with such lands would ' bb very, heavy. .HO would, suggest that there should bo -dovised a plan whereby the preliminary expenses would bo limited until. it .was :sliown whether tho negotiation wasrjustified . or.-not.'.: It was -,to= bo hoped that • tho Bill would lead to the subdivision of .the largo estates.: Limitation in the number :to form aii association ;would Ko con-, ducivo to tho success: of. the' scheme. ' Tho area for - each Vsettler should:.:bo "dependent on the locality 'and quality of ;the lana'..; At this stage of; tho,history of the ."Dominion" suoh .systems: of farming : as the co-opefative. system should be laid on one side. . "... .' ■ ■

Mr. DAVEY" (Chnstchurch- East)' stated that he could seo -no real 'benefit which ■ would. accrue through thfi operations of tho Bill. Ho did nit know 'any, largo landholder' who' was prepared to accept.4 per cent, on his land. - Under the system 'it would-'ultimately cost the. settler 0 per cent, per annum. • Sir Joseph:. Oh, nonsense. : Mr. Davey adversely : criticised - ' .the. pro- , posal that tho settler should bo ablo to part with hisvproperty after ho had. paid one-third of the purchase, money; As far, iis he-coiild.see no provision !yig. made to stop speculation! or ''dummyism."' i No other, .Bill -gavd.'snch- op-.portunitira.-for 'corruption; . It would bo . almost to. get ten men to form an. association ;and agree as to cutting up land. Tho Bill was an absurdity. ..(■-■ 1 Mr. - FRASER.; (Wakatipu) suggested that Mr. Davey,; was : influenced by.!, his leasehold sympathies. • If the proposal had been to.purchase blocks and lease them — . ■ •Mr. Davey: I should have supported it cheer- - ■-■>■... ...;. " >, -:.k - : : Mr. Fraser: I',thought'.so., Continuing, 'Mr. Eraser'said that while he geherally approved tho Bill, ho regretted that it had not been submitted to a, committee .of practical men, who could havo made improvements. He assumed ithat the. Prime .Minister did-not mean that' 200 .acres;of any class of land 'should bo' .tho limit'that : any; man : could -acquire."There was -land 1 so poor, that 200 acres' of' it would Tsoiof' hardly -use. 0 If , the Bill was only-. meant; to ' apply, ...to -land worth froni wßlo~to acre, it' would- not'effect the Prime. Minister's .purpose of subdividing large .estates. ' • ■ ■ Mr.VELL. (Chris.tchureh South) thought thattho Bill would create, many difficulties. • When the; taxpayers' -money' was used' to purchnso land that land should be retained by the State and. leased. • '"■

Mr. . HOGAN (Wangahui) thoiight that - the question- of leasehold v.; freehold need. not be disoussed. Both parties should wolcome any measure; to settle peoplo on the'land.-':-Since it, was only: a dream ,to - think that; everyone Who was settled oh the land woiild be a leaseholder the next best thing was to proyide land under : both .tenures. 'He would' heartily support the Bill.: He would like to see a provision' ■inserted.-/by" which;'.suburban areas could be purchased by town dwellers. : L' 1 ;';- ,Mr:,MALCOLM (Clutha) saw too manv "gobetweens" in ■; the Bill. At 2.30 ti.m, the second reading was passed by 33 votes to 4, tho dissentients being Messrs/ Lanrenson, Ell, Witty, and Davey. The House then rose.