GUARANTEED ADVANCES BILL.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 674, 26 November 1909, Page 5

GUARANTEED ADVANCES BILL.

'■:i; ':;■; FURTHER /CONSIDERATION )N ; v v £y± ; v^:',S'v>-:CpM'M'ITT : EE; 3.; ::-j'- "//V/ ...Consideration, in/Committee-, of ■-..the'-.-State "Guararif eq'd ■ : Advances' 'Bill ■ was ■' resumed. '■'/- ■ .: The I\RIME; MINISTER, "iii reply/to Mr. Fraser (Wakatipu),.stated' that clauses of the Loans .to local .Bodies.: Act ■ not ■ specially /repealed in the new: Bill' wqiiM .still bo in 'force. These include provisions in'.regard' tp'.stating the .'object for which- loans are to be /raised. /■; On -Clause 68 (la), referring id local bodies' loans, which: reads: ."-The'-.-rate -.of- interest charged shall bo the same as the actual rato fttwnich; the money was raised, but no rebato shall: be .allowed,": : - : ■-.'■.' : ■''•'■ .■ ■ -.■.';,•'■ ... Mr. GUTHIUE.(Oroua) moved an amendment to strike■out-the words." but no rebato shall bi,.allowed."; ;.,'■'. .'.;,,■.■.'../,','■ -.:':■(.•■ The: Prime. Minister '''referred to the ";politi-cal'-doprcdators": who. desired to destroy, the basis'of'.a splendid, measure. . ■ ~ '.. ■■.■■" . . <Mr.*MASSl3Y'urged that the provisions, of the Bill relating^to local bodies,were not nearly so .satisfactory as"<--under, "the -'.present system. Under the inost •favourable : circumstances local bodies would have" to' pay i\- per .cent for 36J yeari-.jnstc'a^-of. S\ per..cent, for 11, years." ■'• Mr!-"DIVE (iigmorit) rqad a-protest from his, county, council.'against'.the .'proposals ..in ■regard' 3 to. rates of :interest,'and : sinking funds. Tho' council did .not object; to-.increased borrowinj;.'powers.being.:grantedi._ He/asked 'the Priine Minister to' reconsider his decision, ■< and alfow. the' Loans to. Local- Bodies' Act to. main. ■..'':■'•"■':■-." '*■--■ ■' ' ! -■ ■..'■ '. ' : " '■ '.The amendment, was'lpst'on the voices...-. •

':'Mr.' 7 HEERlES'(Taurapg.ay.:.c6mplaihed. that thd'Bill,'was ' very 'badly, drawn, 'and he believed that its'amWguity would- lead to; much litigation.'-:,','■-. f ■-~':';.. ■ ~ ':.'■' ' Miv ,: NEWMAN :v (Manawatu)'"■ moved : 'an amendinent■ to Clause 70, whieh.provides that after- the -coming/into operation of the' Act loans-shallnbt be-granted to a'local authority under' Part II of -the Local Bodies' Loans Acf, except inTcase3 t .'.where; the Minister,'.has previously tagreed'to. grant the-same,. or thd Ideal , body':has'previously applied foiS : it;;'..Mr. Newman's'.amendment" proposed to except .bounty' Councils' and 'road ijoards, from '•; this -prpyisibn: .'He read a resolution of the'.Eangitikei'Counfy .Council •supporting, his ;request.. bissatisfaction:of Local Bodies.; v ■■_ '; '.'■'" ' i -'llri-itA : SSte'S'-,'said' he 'hail 'iteen :in,:communication with a large 'number, of local'-bodies, and-not one ofithem had expressed satisfaction with. ■ these ■; When .'the,, : bodies understoodi the -.proposals,:':they.-.were- opposed to'them. The con.nly councils and road boards of 'the colony, were thoroughly satisfied with tho existing- law, and they'.would bo just as. dissatisfied with tho new-proposals when they became law. The Government Tras' really rais-iig'-tliC' rate of interest -to \tbe local bodies. It would be.-more'isatisfac.tory "to.'develop tho system -.of.loans to.local;bod;es,at. low. interest under-the jOld" Act,';and so doing decrease the -nnmber of ■'■'Parliamentary:-grants.': He would like 'to Eec.;,the Wretched,-:abominable system of 'Parliamentary"grants-.-abolished..;. . Mr;'\yiTTT.. (Eicdarton); said::that ,tho Selwyn County Council/ was/notrdissatisfied with the. proposals. •;.; . : . .-.■■.'...-' .'■','.-.=^fe'/"'- '■■',;■' .'. . ■ Mr.' OKEJ (Taranaki) 6aid ; that'locali bodies in :his : district, had expressed' dissatisfaction. The -Bill -would be. .against..the ■. backblooks. Many districts would. never • have had a' met-' allea road'but for the old Act, and ■ they;,would not'-take-advantage'of this . Act to-the .same extent, : It wbula. not be so workable,.. for they would -have, to combine.with other:■■ local .bodies to,get their'.-loans..-':-"-Tliey did ;not; ; want largii: loans. -. ; . :They. would 'Slso: have to pay 1 -per cent.- more for'their■ money. •' : , ■>', ■■■'•■ ■'The MINISTER 'said:' that-:.local bodies' would, ' go separately ..to the board, for loans,:.Und the ;board-.would 'effect/the ' .;'• -'?/:/■ :;;/./";;■'.' : ." ! ?-':~ x t'.-' : '^ : , Protests from Local Bodies.' _.. ;.\[ .. :,.' .. '■Replying: to-several ni&nibers/. who held that the-'.old-system' -"'iii; its' entitety,/-. ; . ; : ■: -■■'■'" .'• ' ; : '; ';.,' " /-. v :-,..: ■;,!■;■-...;

v. ; i , hd\l > EiMEMlNlSTßE:deelarc(l:that:it'n:as no. use members-.saying'tho financial position was not us'.strong .as it .ought to bo, aud'.-tben when proposals were made of a strengthening 'nature.'for"thorn.'to;go back on- them.\ :lt was true that! he. had .telegrams of protest 7 •from various:local bodies,..but' 1 -he.;'felt- sure.v ; that they e'manated-ifTOnvthe. one quarter.' '; t i- :, :\Ut, Massey,:...'\Yho'is ; itf.;; i ;:: ;.,-•: :V! V - Sir '.Joseph: Tie chairman .of ■- the. County CounciltfliiSisailifitiOn.. ■ : ■■'■■■ •;' ; ;■.:■■. "■■':%£■■ '■■-. ; i'.Momborsj-.N0,-no. . : --. ;■ : ■•■■ .. .; . '-V ■.'<.-; - I'hVPfitoe Minister went'-on- to say- that only. 'that'-.atteriioon -the: Eaglah:County. , hail■tele-; graph.ed ; -that- it.,-had passed- a; resolution' agreeing with the'Bill.-He thought, that' that, '..telegram-'.migirtiibo.', placed- as a set-off ..to}: other telegrams .yUichvhe.uad received., ' ,- ■-. -.:■:.' ■'Mi'. Masseyi"They'have never read the Bill. •Sir Joseph-proceeded: to saythatsmall --bodies , ■ would, be better, off' under -the ■ new,; system than. under- the existing-system.;. '■• ' »;f.' -■Mr.MALCOLM (Clutha)'remarked that'.even if somebody had'engineered the'protests, -as'had. been:'suggested, ;thb county councils would not ;have 'sent'the telegrams : : if,: .they 'had, not favoured a ; protest being- made. ' : .::V;'- ■'.'■' ':" Mr."BlJCHAN£N(Wairarapa) 'read;a : letter of protest from a county, council, in. the; W4ira ; rapa .'representing- two millions Yorth of pro? pertjv -He thoright the Prime; Minister should accept the-amendment. ;■ ■,:..' ■■ '.-.'.'■■ . ; - -.;'■'! •"I'he applications for votes. in' your . district have been erisrmotfs/' interjected the -Prime Minister.'in'the coiirsb ; of further:.-remarks-bj, the member for , Wairarapa".- : . ■■-■' '■'■ '■■'■.■ (;'.'• ■ ' Mr. Bucha'na'n: X challenge yoii to,- prove; it. ■•'Sir Joseph;-The■ vdtcsyoxperided.in your'di* trict: have - been -very great. ■• ■ V.'; .'■. ~'.:.■;": , - ' Mr. Buchanan: Not put of proportion;to the 1 importance' of - the" -idistrict;.'" either 'from ■ . a population or valuation'point'of :view..; - . ■ ■Mr: JAMES- ALLEN (Bruce) 'contended- that ; if .'the -Biil became , , law' not a single local body • exceiiting those'.authorised-by. the Act of 1908 'could raise a loan. ' He also wished- the.■ Prime Minister to s how' that .the ■ limitations- as. to amonnt imposed in the Act .of. 1908 had been ranioved■ by.i.the Bill. By':- an .vamendment which was. passed a't-the' instanco.of the Prime ; Minister,' it-.mighfrbe 'possible;forthe Government to , borrow" at' such a .■cheap, rite that it might be able to offer local bodies eqiiat' facilities to 'what. they, had .under, the Act-of : 1905.: Brit-af•wHose.xostf..Vhe;. ( . would liko. toVask.il The 'Dominipn . might. be able .to borrow'at-'3, per,. , cent!, rbut it -might be—and he ; was , talcing an extreme case—that;the.Government .'would, get; only Jn/the,.-.£loo, whilst; the..local,V d y,.would.■get;-.£.1(».,-. .. ■ / ' -Thei Prime Minister ■ replied,;that".the.limit was removed'-by: the Bill. -; If the amendment we're; carried: it would' tend to .smash; up -the whole'system'.:■ Hβ;could not understand any. meniber • suggesting that- bothV.the,, existing. and the'"proposed.systems should;-be in force'. , .: .--':.>

Suggestion by Mr. Massey. Mr. MASSEY stated that the utmost satisfaction had alwajs been e-tpresecd with the ousting 1 Act. He would suggest that the new proposals might be adopted lor the benefit ot local authorities who wished to borrow largo sums and tould affofd to pay the interest, whilst tho present law should continue to apply in respect of smaller local bodies. Mr. NEWMAN said the amendment had for its object to further the roading and bridging of tho back-blocks ' The PEIME MINISTER said that there was, no proposal in the Bill wtch would limit the power of local bodies to get what they got undor the present Act The Bill would extend their powers in getting money. | A member. Not on tho sanio terms The Prime Minister stated that the Bill provided for harbour boards if they had rating powers If those councils that had expressed dissatisfaction had como to him and heard his views on the Bill they would not have passed resolutions of protest V Mr. MALCOLM (Clutha) urged that the new Bill would curtail tho advantages of local bodies, and not increase them. Mr LANG (Manukau) pointed out that a circular sent to county councils, which the Prime Minister had referred to, came from the Executive oJ the Now' Zealand Counties' As-ociation, and not from any individual. Mr MASSEY stated that the Prime Minister was not ableMo contradict a single statement in tho circular. Mr JAMBS ALLEN urged that the country was 'still largely undeveloped. Roads, and other works were required in the back-blocks, and these had been largely provided by tho Local Bodies' Loans Bill, which was now to give place to the new proposals. The effect of the now Bill would be to increase, rathor than decrease, votes 'for roads and bridges undor tho Public Works Estimates. A Division. Tho amendment was negatived by 39 votes Tho following is tho division list: — Ayes 23. Allen I*ng Bollard Malcolm Buchanan Mander Buick Massey Dive Newman ' Duncan, J. Noswoithy Fisher Okoy I'raw ' PhilHpps Guthrie Smith n Hardie • Thomson, G. 11. Hcrdman Wright' TTfpn t- * -

''■•'■'''r'.■■':.'■'■'}:';.■..Noea'i!). '■/■' .-. ' -' : '■■'"■' ..- ■Arnold:.'--:."•"■■■■.'■.' ■■■-•■■•-.Laurenson"' '■ • '."• : -:'" : Baume ;;-..•' Lawry.'. ■ , .". ;-.Brown. •?;., ■' .Luke . .... Buddo,. .- ;• r: ■.: -M-Konzio, k.' •■■.■" ■iinxton; "■ .:■ Millar ■'■■'■ - ■ l ?*W il '.:'':--■ : ■•• -3:' ; Ngata : '.. . -.-'..■■ Mark , '/-. .:,.-'.■ Pm-ata- . "'. ■ C01vin..... ■■-.■•'■-■.• Poland ■: ' ' /Dayey/../:.. ::...-'.■,• '-VPoole : : ■■■■■■■■■ : Dillon/. : . , : ,R C od . ■ -'.' ■ . .Duncan,. T., . .-Eoss-. ■f;'.! , : ' ': ■;" : -.' linsselV '- '. ; -lield:•;■•:.■.■■ .■ :, .■•:• - Seddon ".- ' " /Forbes,, ..-;■•■ .... ,Sidoy- ~ ■ lowlds \- ... . Staliworthy . '■'■■ . ' : ' Glover • ■;-. .Steward .■■■■■ ', graham .- >. ■ ; Te Bangihiroa Hall -~,.,:;,.. . Word. Hanan ... , witty Hogan ■.■■•■■ ■ - . An, Alteration. . , '■ . ; ; On tho-Prime Minister's motion Clause 70 was altered, to read as follows:—"From and aftor the coming .into operation of this Act the Minister shall hot'grant any loan to a local authority, under I'art II of Hie Local Bodies Loans. Act, .1908.. In., any case where before .'the. coming into operation of this Act the Minister-has. agreed to grant a loan but the loan has not' been paid over, or where any statutory proceedings for obtaining loan, from the Minister under tho aforesaid Part II have been commenced, the local authority .niay apply for the loan under this part of this.. Act, and for .such 'purpose the pro- I visions.of .Sub-section lof the last; preceding section .hereof'shall.apply."'. . ' ' : ' . Development J pf. : the, Back-blocks.. ■■[■■' ■' Mr. ~ HIJIE." (EgmoM); urged;- that, local bodies should have the alternative'of proceeding .iinder : the new" Act or the Loans to Local Bodies Act. 'He 'urged this in the' interests of.'. the , ' bacfeblocks. ..,..; v ' ', Mr. BUlCK(Palmerston), also made a strong plea on behalf of the undeveloped counties. He said ,he understood ,from'. the debate that itwas pro^owd'to'assist.these districts by means of; Government grants.'.That, was one of the very worst ways .of ■assisting them, for it. encouraged the very bad habit of coming cap in hand;to, the Government:for, assistance, ylf. that; wae 'going' to be perpetuated; the Prime Minister would have,a worse nightmare than vhe. dairy .regulations, from which' ho seemed to'.be suffering yet. -Ho. would ■ liko local bodies to know exactly-what they 'were going to.' get,-.so that it would ■ not be possible for promises- of-grants; to .be- made: befqro elections. , The consolidated royonuo should be used '-.to/assist- the back-blocks .settlers. ' :"•'", . An;amendment: by Mr..Guthrib" (Oroun) to except.from: the operation of Clause 7p-cdnnty oounoils'desiring-loans"- up 'to ' j£6000" in the aggregate in any one; -.year,- and road boards desiring, loans : up 'to i3OOO, was ruled .to be identical ..with: an amendment' previously re-jected,-and 1 disallowed;./; •••' .... '■-■■ ■ f •■"/ ■;The- motion -that/. Clause - 70;' as ■ amended by the-Prime.Minister, be a clause of'the Actj was,carried on a division by' 37 votes to 20. .: LimitatiortsTof Loans. ■ ;

,Wi th regard to. Clause ,71, ; . which ' provides that. , ,loans under .'this "part of. .the' Bill.-shall be similar 'to those' granted under Part II of the Local Bodies Act, .■■:•'■. .. .. . .•.-■' i .:-.' . ■ Mr; JAMES ALLEN moved .an amendment to add-these-.words: ."Provided that -the. limitation's ..as. to.-the -amount, that may : .be lent in Sny.one year.'imposed 1 by Section 69 of the looal' Bodies/vLqans Act, 1908, : shall 1 not : apply to:any loan applied for under: this A.ci'' -ThoPEIME MINISTER declared/that what was.asked. ,fpr ; was in the Bill 'already;!'. ■ Mr; FEASER (Wakatipu)' said that the Hcuse had tipt' , .been' , told, , though .'he had the question several-.Hiuies; whether'; Section 09 of tne Local ■Bodies' Loans.Actwas.etill'operative. The -Bill; required very.icareful'consideration, since-'it... was doubtful- if. the other :Chambcr would.be able, to amend , it.Vowing. to its dealing with;'finance; :'• ■;':'' ! ■■; '•'• .*■"•. " : ■■■-The amendment'was rejected by_'3B to 23. • ■ Question.of Sinking r -Funds... . ; ■Vγ!- '■■ .'■;-.-.- . iu.: MALCOLM (Clutha) .moved..'an: amendmwit/to.;Olatifie'.'72, providing that .the provisions iii Hie Ltxsal Bpdiee'■ Loans Act relating to; sinking /funds shall/ with- such limitations a6\ to ..amount''of .-loatis'.as :ar.o provided, in that. Actj: continue .'.to-apply ;in the'ease/bf loans under .'the.Bill.. .:... :,.i-.:,./' .The'proposAl'was-lost by,39 to 21;--: ■ Mr. SIDBY (Dunedin-South) moved to add the i,following'words to.-Seotion 72:. l "And the.provi.Sec.tidn' 25 of-jtbo-Local Bodies' Loans Amendment -Act, .-1908,.5ha11,: ; apply- .in the case.■-of di'aa? to■■(ilooalV'aitHo^iricii.iguaranteed by "the .Government -under, such' , last-mentioned Act.^-'H>.-.-.-'--. ; '-:v-;-v:--v:.-:..--J-;,;,v'". : -.v:,iv ; ] - M'he-amendment.was.approved: by 32 to 30.; Inrpgardi;fo:.C;iaris.fe73,- :■"?&''.: . i|" '!.- ;-Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) .pointed, out thot;- the I provisions' as to-sinking, funds in :the Bill Were notso. gcnerouaas/those'.in tho measure passed last year. It "was ".decide'd'Jast'. year that the 1 per cent, sinking fund .should bo paid hall ■by the I - local:, .'a'uthqrityj lrom tho Consolidated. Eun'oV: Now.,»it' was. proposed 'to repeal that:provision. ; Hβ would like to know why the. Prime,' Minister. had , t changed his policy : so-soofir '- ,;-V..-',-' ; >' :.-.•?:■■■''■•'> f'-.'.; -. Sir JOSEPH .WARD pointed: to,;the advantages' of the , ..(reseat;-Bill.t' .:-:U.i ' ' ■• - »■'•:■'• ;.Tho v clause-wiis retained by : ..37. to 23. ■■'.-.''.. Advancej; to.'Mining : CompaniDS. ■ .'..-;..- ; . Mr.' 'WElGHT"(Wellingtoi South), moved" to ; delete;': Clause 75;' under .'which' advances Inight be ma'de to assist:.mining;-.Ho- considered- that the,' bujjiiess. 6f the proposed-; branch would ibe hazardous , ...-.'.'.- •■ ■■'■!■ '-.■'■!■■-•'.'.•■.'. •-• •'.■■■r.-.■•-■-. ..: ■.The'.PRIME MINISTER , said'that money was alreadysadvarice/1 to mining companies, but -it ■was desired that'the;.vari6us advances depart-■meits-should bo concentrated, as now,- if any loss took place,- it ;would u fall: on the xountry,and notion, the Department. :' ■■.>.''■'. .. : Mr. ;ALLEN/(Bruce)/..hcld-.' that amendments were rec[Tiired; ; in respect 'of. certain clauses' in the; mining law lshicE. were at.present inoperative. ' He .'moved, an amendment/to-the 'effect • that uncalled 'capital. should be: mado part oi> the , security; for. a loan. .:' • '■".■■ : . -,-., - ■'. -.' The|'amendment vna rejected .by $b- to 19.■".,' Civil Service Examination.: • -'..';: - : Mr. ALLEN[i(Bruce)' moyed'the deletion of a. snbsectipn; jnf.Clause .81, 'which.' , provided. for the exemption''of any person employed under ' the .Act : the examinations prescribed by ,the Civil, Service regulations.' He said he could not'scejwhy the. employeesof such tin .important Department".6DQuld be. allowed to enter by other: man.the front,door^-viz.,- by passing the requisite.examination. : ; "■■■ \.i-. •. ■ . i'.

.Mr.-MASSEY-pointed.out:that;.orily recently a , barman!'; who had ;not passed-the necessary examination,' had' been Appointed to a position id an.important Department.'. He tliougnt that too', , mucn 'care ■ could not be -taken: to ensure \ that-the-Department-was' staffed'by .competent iofliceirs' ,, •■..'•'/•,'-.'.,'.')'. ; 'V; •'■',' ''■ : '.'..'.■■•■'••''•■ ' ; '.TKe sub^claiisewas'retained by 33-to. 17. ■ \ 'The'PJilMfiTAlNlSTEa nioyeda:new. clause to' the , ': follbwing' , effect irr'ln any case where before the .coming; into operation of-this Act ,a local .authority; has takett.any. statutory profQeedings.for.the purpqje'of'raising'a : loan,Tjut th'e.lban -has; not .been factually-.raised, the prbcee'dings' so; taken shall ensure completely, if''''the proceedings ;are -in- /progress '■. on tae coming ■ into- operation; of this Act- they may ■ be ' continued and- completed:without commencing de.'novo. ■ .All such'proceeding's shall avail, notwithstanding any' difference in ;the- loan I , they. .originallyvrelated.to:.:,The:'aforesaid.proceedings may Ml be utilised: for!.the purpose ■of a'loan, outside this Act if.it is .'so", desired." ' The clause y.as agreed to after ; discussion. To ■Raise' ihe |; LimitatTons.; ■ ■: .'.' A.'?. ■.'; -..;■-. ; : Mr. JAMES iALLUN moved a new clause to raise'-the 'limitations under Clause",69 of the Local :B6dibs' ,! Loans 'Act,as follow:—County Councils ,£6OOO to XIO.OOO, road'boards." to i£5000, : ; town' boards 'JE3OO' to • ',£1000;N river boards.-' XSOOO :to £10,000, drainage districts jS3OOO. to '35000,: water supply. districts J53000 to local anthorities of any declared by the Governor to be a district'under that part;of the Act X3MO Hβ bolieved that- the; Bill ■ as' it stood retained the limitations :under. Clause :C9 -of the old Act, andif.-it.wes.so-he.wanted thesebodioa to be able to- borrow' larger ;amounts. '. If, , as the Prime Minister, contended, the limitations were removed, his araendment L, would- not - affect the present-Bill.' ::':■ ;'■-.;... _. : ':;;.'--'.'. ■';•••' : The ■ Prime., Minister .replied ''that /the amendment , would. :have, the -result that the loans would not ibe ; able to bo raised- at all. Clause 69 authorised", the Minister; to make advances, -.and": the new 'Bill authorised the board to make advances. ■•.■•■■■•". . .' ■

Tho proposed new clause was rejected by 34 votes to 15. Tho consideration of the Bill in Committee was;finished at 1 a.m. It was resolved that the amendments be considered to-day, and the Houso adjourned.

• ;;;' !"' :Vi(EST:C;(SAST : LANDS. : ;, ■'.' ':'■■ .'•'% petition has ; been presented by Mr. Okey, M.P.,. on behalf' of ■a - .' large, number of-lessees tinder; the {West Coast. Settlement Eescrves "Act, complaining that by; a decision-of the Supreme Court they wiU.be,deprived of,the value of all improvements not .consisting of- buildings/and fencing,' though' they - have cojnpuleorily spent lirge I'-, sums;' ! on' bnshielling, burning,, and sowing.i/. The ''-ask', for legislation -pro'viding' for payment for..all.permanent iraprovemcntß.:iind.'proTiding that in,assessing the rent payable by them: upon renewed leases none; of e]iall ,: be -taken ; into '.coni BJflqrftfrWil." ■;;'•■•■•'.'"' .'•.■ '.-'..'•.'"' .'■-■';';- : : : '.' '■' ; ■'■'. '•■• •