PARLIAMENT.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 672, 24 November 1909, Page 5

PARLIAMENT.

:K/;|j/;;|STATE/"Qy^r^l^ / ;V "' : f '-/J?; the :Eouso yesterday ,afterhpoi 'and evening /;/'//':" P *^ o t' o n-'oy/the;Pn^ ?;'!: !from:itb : day\fOT tKe'iVpor ooht^ ;;'; : f; ."v^ -,'■■ /•• vvw : surtax Of, ,2J";per ; .cent,: oil''the amohnt -pf-.diity '-./'.'--':!' dutiable'. goods. -'Mr.-Massey-took' exception 'v %:[s the heayj/iduty' which .would bo imposed/oh' ;>/ ; ;3-tobacco i ;y,underi';^he,? f ■/';.; ;°.T.,;; ■E. amendment :;,'/'(.,. : that. ( 'f;he <'. proposed-fadditlbnalv taxation ('should. ;/.., ; v;,; ; / W levied/exclusively by ; ! an-:increased, duty. : ' V-.'.','vjJ n \ i ;tbbaccd,- i -beeri'' ii--v:j.v This was'/iost'by 46'votes',to: 13,'and,a:second^. a ? e !to;;;increase/;the '•■'■ /'•'"fi'i e f°' s s;!duty : ;bn' ? beer"; by,-35"per lost; ://;/; by .44 to:ji:;fcThe,;Primp/Minister's; mo : /;,/;,v:;',tipn was'.cdrri" ;eveningj:; after, an .in-, :/; / discti^ >;'. '■- '■'• -i/tj taxatiph.'.; >The Idiscussion.; ih/'Cfemmittee. ;,/..•,/ ,r|: State: Guaranteed '/Advancesyßill .was (then ro-; ;/;/;;/ ; ';| B«m'ed;;i'/The; Land/.Bili,'Land iSettletaents' Ad-; / v /,/'»;: ministration Bill, rileath/Thitios 'Bill./and ,Na-; ./,'f; ahd ; ;read';a '~,'..,: : Jji. first --time,,, and and. Offices/Amehd- '{/,->.,/ jnent;:Bill/ and; Factories Bill-were^pirculated; : %^i^/'V : '& '; ■; ; /2fet/AV,SU i RTAX • SUBSTITUTED. ;, : '\-: • ■'■-;■' (''j- - ~7,;: ' /Mr' r lTETji)' ; ask2d '.'the'':il:iister--'for Finance: i r - ■;-',.■' collecting' ji v, (liity;! of .1' per.'. cehK'/with a'li : >'.'....;:-' its..; attendant- lnconvehienboahil. expense, .he. "■ -.'•.-.;v':. ! ,wpiild: adOpt : a.' far/simpler' and, more' conveni,.;,://:'..,Bht.'method,6f..raisihg;;at. least.'the sanio, rovi ..;.'(i«nne,'-and a/method:which would preserve'ail ,- v< ; ; .'.eyeh -.ratip.of ■ increase of'.tax^viz.,'the/,iihpo'- ' .■,'■■ .;;/Bitionof>.ah additional .'.2 ,'per ;cent.'':oU';tne ; 'ac-; ': /::-.; /.tual '. amount ; M/duty,"payable .oh''each'' entry.' y ;-'. ■",-./'..'/vmethod.wonld;provide on"tHe.;ba'sis.of ;:;:.;,/W.£2 ) ?p3,086,/being/^^ :/;-.' By- r imposing ;l,; per' l .cent.,,.on,invoice : ;. .; duties/were,'.thrown'.'out of', proportion, :/'/ v r 's:6nd : : therspirit /aqd/ policy/of the .tariff- altered," /;i;/,,;:;,and, theAWork./ahd/cost.inyolved-in.'estimating ■ /'.'/.j'. the /tax and; collecting, it .were'.needlessly great. //,; ■■'.'.;■'.' /The /PRIME / MINISTER /stated:,; /that,, ; lie ';.'/jo^d.^oh;Friday, hiove:a, resplntioh to'substi-: :'; ./ //.TOtei/in/lieu /of the.'.lper cent, primage duty. -.;;/, .'-reoently: imposed,'a; 2i ; Surtax on the /'■^/'', : .?W nnt; Pi''duty : OT ;/• ■', /':M oent. ■ primage; duty.)imp'orters were'-'re-: :.,',': : riltrired.:;to';produc6. original 1 .-.'which - ■'': ■■ ; ./,cansed. serious.' inconveniehoe/ 'as in - sbm e ;'■ in- - i; — /o^ an<!t S- t W goods had beca'in, Wndisixmonths:. ';' : ::. •''/!iVfl®., 2 l;.Per, .pent,- surtax,.would/'ambuht.ito'ai :/'/;/ -Irttle;inore/than/the /I' perVcerif./ '/ / . I-- hs', he; could ■ not- forecast/the 'value': of the goods : ;.. : ./:'' '„>hich.:w6uld bp;imported.;during/the.;current />;.ffi::/year/hei, was'not.prepared, surtax' ':'''.'/';2,per;,cent.: : llhder:,tho.,proposed. system,the ad-" /;:' ;>/ duty ,w°uld>W easily/workable.: '•' V ,-i. : ////i 'A.;voico::'When/.do'you/propose l 'tb/ihtroduce J/-/;v;';/^ne..resolution?,T:,:;; v /'.^i\:/;,-'i.A.;v.;'p. : y./^ '-,":. iw/Sir/JosephVT/wpuldlikelo ///■ 'toon:if ,'disqussion •would .'not take','place: until .-,■■.-••-.;//" ; the.:Bill/came.:d6wnV ; : <":■;-'!:;;>' 'r-i /.'-'; .--.-'.■• : > i Mr. Masseyi.il could hot/- agree, to .that;-' ■':'■ ;

/llricohvtiniericevto" Impprtorsl;;,/;';:;;:; / ;;■.:■';; : ,. ■';,- ~>■■• subniitted;,thal;.:thevaiteration" ■';-•'■'' : /Should :be-; made at'once/.'-jilt-,was',well .known'.- '.:';• .ijhat-serious inconveuioncc '..Tvas being' caused v.;,/tjmporters ulider"the- ; primage dutvv ..'":'';'.'■ ■•.-: ,;..;. ■ i-J-Mr.' T.Er'TAYLGR said heihadiiustlTCceived' :.*.-'letter; from,', the; secretary-■ of -the Tobacco ;■,-•',- .Distributing -Assbciatipn.Vwho; pointed.out that- ,.,■.-, -.the;'phmage".'auty. ; on\ tobacco' on-the, : basis of ,',;.;'Jast- :year s ,'impbrtatibns-: would :be i£3617,: whilst /■■;..< surtax would -'amount.' ; ..; - iei3,202. ,';He//suggested that' between 'now: ".' Fridayv/the-'-Prime'-Minister',should.,tdh- '■',-', ' adyisabloncss "■ of meeting the -position '. '- :'.-;;-;by;doubling jtho/excise.lduty/bn-beef./;;/":: -;-.^ ~/-L: , ';lncrease./of•,Taxatjbn;.; ; ; .'':-;-- : "': :''/'(;*Tlie; PRIME':Mffis^ER/ ; at'^hiterv/stagb : -:■: 'ijaoyed , that; the: Orders: of: the- Day' be sus-pende'd/down,;--,to - 'number'.'::7-4Comm'itte'e'-.-'of ;,:' ; ■ iWa'ys and., Means.: ;;::-•;£-.v:y ; .V.' ; -".'-:'.- :;,r-;7,-:;-: •■s.'.'''\''-'":/'Mr,.;,MASSBY'-sald^-ho , f.'.WQuld'\likeyte'-';know'' 1 .',:/ what; .was intended.;-- The -Prime Minister had' , >, :,'said/;that. he-ihtehded , ::,;.:;,;..,primage -duty,/:and/sntstitute Another- / : duty.' : .;.■'.':, There, could; be.-'no 'objection to: that as.< a gen- ;:; ■. : '.';\-:' r ;.,: be; considerably, vincreased.'-.: If the taxation was' ;.:;,,tol;.be -increased,:,the' increase ';.could not -be ';; ;.',:agjeed ..to( in::/Co'mmittee,of/,\Vays.:'.and /Means.' ■ .''.'Vlhe- proposaKrauld/ohly: be!/brought,.down by. V:<'' r i:' : -.-yy'. :: -^i,:^'' : :. *'■■;(;<■ 'vJhe/ Prima:vMihister:V/;I/arii"/follbwing: : " ; thb ,: : ; / :,usuai_ : courSd;:;;;;:,,--,.;'/;:',/tX : :■-":'■'■;■-.','. -S. ; -'■' '■■ ■■'.■:'■■■"■ -•: :■".• vMr?/Massey: : ;•'"'--'. ; *Srß9-ii f one -' tax.'was/simply'a substitution for ;/:-." the-.other,-without iricreasing Hhe'-aradunt:-":-'■ ;;;:: the,;procedure ;.;---.,nad -always'.been: that .which he,:was following. ;;' "-:, Nq;Governor's ..Message /was':brought: : down for-' ■:..- alteration .of /the Custom's \ iip'on' a -resolution, :■-.■'■; ,but;:a;:Governdr's:,Message',:was required for'the .■;\ : /;/ ■,■:■■:■ ;.:;'r ; -VJ.':•.•;■■.',..'.■';.'-.-, '■{'■'v. :',>'=''-lifter/;fnrtheri?discdssion';?he';: Speaker - ruled :...;. that ;noj message --.;.-■ ;- r ;-j " , ; ;: i : The;'motion,'to;'-goVinto: Committee' of .-.'Ways '.'■i^iintt'Means"was'then adopted.'- -;' :■„:■- :;:/ :'f-The/PRIME MINISTER'then'/mbved-that on' ;,./..; Bjid. after November 24, there" should:'bo 'levied : "il:■:■„■ A', surtax: ofJ,2J^er/cent;'•:on. theiamount'-'of J -..,, .duties collected, .instead;of : the'■primage' duty, -'/•.; ..that no refund should-be: made of, any primage , ,!;;;•., duty;,collected under'; the "previous resolution, ",r< ,: .that/.this/ resolution' should, -not extend to : the ,;-'.:;:butlyingr islands /until.-such: time U-might bo .-■ ':.'ipmed.,by./.th'e :,Governor-in-Cou'ncil,:' and ■ that /.' ■■'•■ •-,'■■'jcciprpcal 'trdaty-,. betweeh': New ■ Zealand . and' .;,-- ! .South'-Africa.;.;■;'::,",- ":/"/: :■*■'>:.■ y -' ; -"■';■ ;

: % ;;;:Mr.:^Mas'sey':Protests] ; : :H:; ;!'-;■' ;"'::.' ■i '■ : 6 W, a J hat « n , w as;dpiiui'befdre'agfeeing:to;the $.;■•'• resolution.',, The SPremier:had':stated -that,: the o^'^- o ? 6l^^' would realise; ;;/),. #utv.on ; ; .the ior'last :year it ■'' :-:: woul :He be-: - v ••:,-■ : OT?;' that'a/much'more soridus.ihcrease than. ' : ' : ?■ ? I^ 0 W :;^5lni3 = ; Primage.:duty.'wa's:now '> ;•;': l^eu^^;'■' T!le :.adreaso;'ofVduty;..would prob- - ..- -i; ably;.b« imore.;hke;::£150,000;; He: had ..received; -. •' ;:•, J ''number of communications, in,respect, of-:' td- ;;. .-bacco. ; ; ; By,'the;pnmage:duty;the;.ihcreaseditax '■•■ W wbac,co;_would,be;4!3Bl7.for: tho year; .Under '■ 'N : nS^'^ r ? pos '! a -^ e ■'■: grease Mwould '.-.be. :;; ■;':t^':^';^^^H^W' 11 ? th>. ; '; :0. Sir.Joseph: milling toldave /vbV'uled'tm^^ 86 ■' : '-•' '' rto V tpFi BRld i% would :arP- ::-,': fe'^S- 13 "'' ' articles 'besides.,t£. .-v^bacco- which ; jaid^gh;rates ■=. •'' - ' : > :i fhS w h ?"' io ,^^ - to "'proposal, like' .-"'• - v •"'■ b «-;aWe'! to :tell the ■■ Houle ' H^W^ftkeS^ o^^^^ -ji6 wouia Jike.Jiim:to..'say, how much'he'ex-..■.•.v,.-.'Pe,ct«t.ito : ra ; : ' ;^%t^&: m ; 'Sectld - 0 n: ' the: dar^'^aid ' Mr/ ;•-.'»ssm,:,, : This;has,.been'spruriß oh iu« ins'rf V - ; : 'P*m^S^^ o :: lo *:'»j» '■« Unless: the! -: ; :^ T S^KiirE.'Mmism4^ .-:,.-• : gvven notice would ':be affected : ';:;.TOuld,^ar.hi S :goo(l s ;:;'Thd''total amS'Wi : ;:; lt£us\ dut ?l;: lnß tea« of picking: out :ohe' :., ,-,-lmq- like tobacco,;the amount was '••' Bv ;"• •":' - i'The,;'Prime . Miniseer': v ;Ut : .us i'deal' with 'Jt :/-,,prpperlyy,: : ;ConUnu^;;Si^ o^p^ w '^^: • '^> ln '*'>ich could -....:■•-. ba ii made;;raore' ; than J ' : ■ l .:-•.■■-v.-,■ -7v' "-;.-*'' . :;.: particuferjifoms,;. ofythd.;. tariff, :. ■■'■:- quite',;willin K ; .to. '-. :• :»!<* :--M.*Ws. Aind : ;> ; } \ WjOie,;Convemei!ce' of the publio" :- '■■'■■'■wyM system, which .was ■:'-:;^™^WW*y<--way .'-■■"althougli'it-;'affected'':'dif-Mrent^iteiMfm; manher.vifle .had ; ; ;:V:i.npt^made:::the;:p'ropbsal;:wiffiVa;viewl ; ty^ob^ : '?^^::t»pug;'moTe;moneyj : . i fHo';jlever -indicated;;the ;•; ■;' ;,.';.ihU-,afflou^t:;?ithat.; : might vbe'r ;;-; ;ehi^9:fa; : the,G^

■„ffL£™J-'. primage duty;would give more.- than A.tU.QOO, /but»ho \ did /not: believe /tliey would got _ovcr eithcrby.the primage duty or ; by the Surcharge., The estimate-required to-be f" 1 we safe side, and for hispurposes lie called it £aO,OOD, though he expected' they would got ■more, than that. -.. ,:..: / ;A, Comparison of Effects, : • >' "'/Mr./T: -E. TAYLOR, (Christehurch North) said that; the duty would, bo-very: much less oh. all ordinary •' articles 'under „the- surtax, as compared with the' primage duty. Drapery, for, instance, would pay .£136(1 ayear, as against ..£2740 ; under tho primage duty;-'earthenware' would.be reduced Ironi .£670 to .£325, .whilst'oh a-.largo • line of .woollen goods' the reduction ■'ttpuld.-bb to ,£2030 (ono-half):.There (: would bo l, a large.'. increase on , tobacco and 'spirits,:;but'he".(Sir. Taylor) would not mind ! -if, thowhole jCSOiOOO was put on these,'.luxuries. (Laughter.) /It-would'bo a good thing if the. duty/on .beer of.a' certain, strength was ih-1-creased,-and. thatoh beer/of. a, lighter strength 'reduced. ..;0n .the whole,:it seemed' that:the 2J ,per'cent.'surtax-would fall, more, lightly on i articles of utility, than: the primage • duty. ;Spirits,' on the other hand, would' pay JE12.500, 'instead,- : of '~£2319,' whilst tobacco: would pay, 'as already stated, ..£13,200,. instead of-.£3601. ', Mr. LAUKENSON iLyttelton); preferred the isurtax, / under, which, he said, drapery, iron'mongeryi'ahdlearthenwafe would pay.only lis., .instead- of /.£l,/per JBIOO. ,:The duty .on' whisky ■iwould'be/fivepenoe per,, gallon :mote, and the jincreaso on tobacco-wbuld.be only, one/penny 'per tSonnd. -. .."■".;'■ ■'...' ■;-/_. '•/': ■■'•-.'.■■•■;'■'-,,;.•-, :;,-' ..Mr. JAMES. ALLEN /(Bruoe) said that the Minister for.Fin'ance 'estimated the total Customs duty' at.,£200,000 less than, last, year. He. did' not know why.jthis should be,.so.. He hoped l that -the amount, collected .would.be .as much,as the 'year before .last; which was' about three millions, /'ln: .that .case,:- the '2J, surtax would produce about .'.C75,0f10.y/The alterations would mean a reduction as compared with the primago' duty'on all articles on which.iad -valorem ; duties r were .raised,,. whilst,.on;, spirits ithere .'.would' be an increase.:: On sawn, timber there would be'a drop from ".£2003 to J8787. :■■--.'■ .'- A'member: Where'are.the timber niombers?., - - Mr. Allen: I do not :know./where ; they. are. 'It. seemed strange that .whilst there' would be an'.increase'.on'wine;''there would.be" a reduction on-sparkling Svine. He''thought? that on the -whole'the, proposed alteration would be ah improvement oh' the primage' duty: .It ,was better .to'piiti.the burden.; on /spirits.than, on Wots.''and.shoes.• ~..'•,,:;'- ,:,■ .".. '■ .. '

.How'Boots'.'and;Shoes are Affected. './ , i - .'Mr. Massey: How are" boots - and shoes' affected?- ;'.-/.'•> -.' ' / : ' '•'-,-,/'..:' i .'-■/".'-'■ ';.' ;Mr/. AllenV They/^ilUipay ;^3So.' under the ■surtax,"instead of in;primage:duty. The flour duty would also be reduced.- '.■/ . '■/.. ' • Mr.; MALCOLM regretted thab.whilst;>t was proposed to make, imported liquor,. pay/. more duty, -nothing /was/being :doue to.'.get. more from -.'the.; Dominion manufacturers' of/beer, ■who/had ' ali'eady;. b'een ./proiiting.' by, ,the /removal.of the duty."on'; sugar.- "-.; . ..-,,■':' /-'- :Mr..POOLE (Auckland.West) contended that the .so-called;luxuries should bear the'heavier burden'of taxation.; He was not anxious to:' see any 'more /duty .imposed on necessary;' articles of wearing.' food stuffs.: ->;;'/'■'/• /"„/■ -V:/"'X ,: <-'■/.'/=■ :•'■-'.

Amendment by Mr. T^E.~Taylor. Mr. T. E. TAYLOR (Christchurch'North) moved an amendment to tho effect that ■ the proposed additional taxation should bo levied exclusively by an increased duty on tobacco, spirits, wines, and' beer. Ho said that the cost of collecting the two and a half per cent, on a .large range of articles would be very heavy. "He did not see why there thould be a. further burden of, taxation;,on -such; articles as building .materials, drapery, and some food btufts which were not duty freo. The four articles/ which he proposed should bear the additional taxation were not essential to the leal health or happiness of the country. It would do no harm if those who wanted those lu\uries should be compelled to pay a little,. .;.- \by,;-.-.- way:•■"'; of". a) ■• luxury "ta* ;..sthe •• , >cost -.of g&vernment; .■ ,'The_ PRIME MINISTER held -that the,prope'r.'/time''for,l ;ah ; amenunient'.to .bo brought idown.was', when the/Bill^was'uhder'.discussidh. because if, the: Committee was.going- to decide the exact ,form'; the'.Bill should -take-it; was for the Committee' to take the responsibility for it. .'•-'All/he wanted was the;authority that the. Customs revenue /should, be collected' until .the.'time', arrived when the House'decided the" .inattor.;. 1 ! .''."":■.; V-'i, ■' ;: -',', -.■ '■. ■ '*■'; ?,/-A the. Brewers./;;,; •'■'..;;'":""-. '"■■ .5'...''/ ''- ■ Mr;: * ;wasaa matter. of; notoriety, that the breweries hid built up •large.. accumulations.'-during .the .past ,20 ■years,; when the taxation upon them -had beenpractically.,undisturbed. ~,During »r■ ,■ same period': the landowners"; had' had to/pay.'■ increased:^taxation;■',the:;ordinary, 'consumers 'of useful '-'articled had had, to."'do ..the same,: and local ' bates:- had been' augmented. ',-'■•• At, present tho ; breweries; paid under, ,£IOO,OOO/per;-year, ahd;-if:-tbe/excise,, duty .were: increased by.25 pcr'.cent.,it,would inflict no loss oh any'deserv■lng'.:class.::"',lt ; was;'his' opinion - that'.'if- the •brewers ~in ; retaliation' raised .the price /of ; ;beer there ;would ;.bo a /strike among the- consumers, and; the ,'price,-would-' soon be: reduced', again.The/additional/taxation could be made;to fall upon.'a'.dozeii brewers, for drink inflicted upon, the ;State enormous expense every year-in connection.: with, police, courts,, gaols,, and: asylums.' Ifi'.the .country : could that way"-raisei.'a' temporary/.ldah from .the brewers , it /was its duty, to do so .rather; than .from,the other.indus'tries.;;;'::.';■.'' -.V;, ; ; : ':;":-;>'. " '''■'."-•"/.'!'.'"-'.:'■ ■ ;-Upou-, a .division,' the amendment' 'was rejected by; '46.: vote's .to 13, the "ayes" being as followV-TrMessrs. - Anderson,. Brown,, : Dive-, J. Duncan, .Fisher,,; Hine,. -M'lareri,'-: 'Malcolm, Poolei-Scott,. T. E. Taylor, G.-M:', Thomson,' and.iVVright.';, ; V'-, : ;,;- •'■. •■■'■:. '-,,'./ ■■-; -;v', :•■■-.-.'■. A ; ,;WordJorithe,Smoker. ' .;: ; ;' i'/j '-> ; -.■;- . -Mr.':MASSEY- said,it was;a-.very great pity that; : .the/Pr"ime .'Minister';'and;his; colleaguds■ had not'given sufiicient-thought to this'subject ■to bring.;forward',a definite .and ''satisfactory; proposai ; 'in;the:first, instance. All these changes in'-.-'-the.'-tariff wereVdisquieting; to merchants and-importers,' and irritating to, .the .commuhity:■ as. a: whole. :.;■. He wished : to. say a. word on behalf/of'the ; smokers; though 'he. was' not .a smoker-himself.".;'■ To place MifiQO on tobacco, 1 out ;ofva -.total, increase of -.was': to .place,;too;ihuoh' duty upon it., To,many people /tobacco ;was:'a ; .necessary, • and .thereS.were many more; consumers of , tobacco . among 'the .working,,,classes than among- those who were' very, : ,iuimh':'better;'off. ! '.-.The r greater 'part of; the, taxation., on-tobacco ..would;;fall', on ~the working. people..- He agreed. that,^on. the,; gene-' .tho-/surtax- .was 'an:improveiiieut; v , on : the I primage 'duty,'., but' 'before.; the second-reading;of the Bill 'some,,readjustmentshould bo /made to place'cohsumers' of.tobacca 'in'-a-'-.fairer,'-positionj'..'.- ''■.•'.,■:. 4 ■' :;•-.:; 'The PRIME,MINISTER."stated .that ythe American Tobacco .Company "had-'increased'* the' price.; of tobacco'; in-: New/ Zealand':' by,,threes.: ponce-a-pound 'within;a month.,"''i"' , '.: ;! - •: :, Mr." Massey; -They -will 'probably':' put: it "up a-little more now.>.;;;. ; :■;-"-.; •;<■■■;■ .':',.-■• ! ■'■■;':•;■'.. • The;.Prime,Minister >'6aid; he -reifeTred'; to -the' fact,because,by/and v ;by; it,-,woqld be said: that the -.-increase .had' been caused/by the increasedduty. ■;The. fact -was,.-however, .that the;' price- . was; raised before, the: primage : duty, or~ surtax was.suggested.'' ;What ; Mr.:Massey.should.have' done, and ha'; would'have; supported -him in it,; --was' tb::suggest, that :.they;.should: p*ut'■:legislation; on.the'/statute,book .to; rican : Tobacco-Company ■■ for. increasing the piScxKof,. tobacco "New Zealandi/.The -pro- 1 posal for;a:surtax':was.to-last-till ; 'March 31, i9llj,:and.:the; reason foT .it was: that, the Cus"tdms revenue: for 'the. firstj six months of this year/had fallen,,,£2oo,ooo,!and,if ;that" continued at'.tho same rate during,'the.year,the Govern--me'nt'"would, require certainly, the full- amount of,/the:'surtax,' with the. .#118,000: referred to .in-'CKe Financial Statement,-to make it.up, un-less.ithere/.was.a-.-recovery much.,sooner, than 1 seemed -possible.;; , : : ". '''-": ",.'•■',.-"■'; Where/Defence /Comesjn;':':'.;';/;■ "/ :: ',:..V:'''!: ■ii/Mr./>Massey:;::This/ ; is.' not;:for; defence ,:pur- ; poses?.,,',' y. [ ': -'"'*.■■•/;..;;" '.-•;. ; 'v/':' : ; '■•-.■ '-.',"- : ' -. .The .Prime;Minister,/'continuing, said: that "everybody "in'-.the./cpuntryjshonld..give*a little towards -the; proposals:,/for, internal and: external, defence.-,' •."'' - ;,- ~',- .--. , ", :.-:./ ■•'-.:.- -i.Mr. 'Massey: : But this is'not for 'ddfe'nce pur-' poses.. You'say; H .is: to .make, rip, the. deficiency/ ..The Prime Minister said it: was for the consolidated revenue, but of which they had : to :provide for - these matters.' The .whole of "the proposals in 'the Financial,Statement,must be taken./ together. '•. They .could.not leave , one out.-''■;-.'; ;-,;,';'-■■- '■-, *,; .. /,>;'-■';:- .\ ;: :,:;;,;,: . -Mr. Massey claimed that -they should bo -koptj' quite-separate. .. / :,-;,;'- ".-•',-:'' Duty, on Tobacco. , ■ ■:-'." '■''-: '". ■'.'• ;Tho PRIME MINISTER, stated that tho : to-' tal'quantity ;of >unmanufactured l tobacco; : im'. ported last year', was: 21;531. pounds,. on which' the. duty was .£2153.' -Manufactured.-tobacco amounted.in quantity : to 2,133,4631b.,. on which tho- duty/was .£373,356. - The total. amount 6f duty 'on■' tobacco 'was-.therefore about. : Ja76,ooo, 'and ;■: 21 .'per. cent.' \on" that ..amount "would -be . only'.JE7ooo.',V;-'".''■■ >~■'•■ •■- .-',".-:';/- ■;■',<-..■■•■. :'■'.;::;■' Mir. Allen:-You ;will find that it:.cbines'-to bvef::i9oOO./'/.,;: "■ v". /;..•;-:-.;;'/: ■,",■■/ "•;• tV-j--.:-'/.'.Mr.'/'Ta'ylbr :"-:TVhat::ab6nt,;- cigars'-; and;- cigar--1 ettes?'; ?X:':".;'' :^:;:':;: -^;7vi--.-■.' :■,"-'• ;'-:■--■;--; : ...Sir Joseph:;l;'am talking about,tobacco/ / '■■[-:, i tbbaccof ;! i ; -

■>Sir on to say that the. duty collected oh cigars last "year .was .£22,817, and the 'duty on '• cigarettes -;£128;249, : - whilst - the' duty on • snuff, was, .£440. The' other, speakers, had apparently 'included cigars 'and cigarettes under the, heading "tobacco.'",' He was referring .to-working men's tobacco.' ; ■.-: :.;Mr'. ; TAYLOR said that there were'no, classes in New Zealand/, who smoked tobacco in any particular-forni, nor was there any class'which drank; a' particular kind of liquor. " The.Resolution Agreed To.";' ;,.'' '. H T : MpW; (Invercar'gillJ agreed' that to' increase the. duty, on' tobacco was to strike at the. working, classes in'particular.'He agreed' with Mr.-Taylors/views as to the duty on spirits.' ■!'■■ .' . t^ r, 'l' rAYLO ? '(Christehurch ' North) said that, it .was .not his; proposal to increase the tax on;.tobacco.;'.■■>..' . /, ' .The Prime Minister's. resolution was earned. :-Sir. FISHER,- when .'the House' came out' of _ .-Committee;', explained../ that . ho had voted /.m .Committee-' for , Mr. / Taylor's amendment to increase the dutv' on alcoholic tIZ x* p A° l> .? sal i or 1116I 116 ."creased taxation of tobacco. On a 4 15s. bottle of champagne a man paid Is: 3d. duty, while on a 6s. pound tin-of tobacco.he paid 3s. 6d. duty: He was in fa^ our 4 0 . f altering that .anomaly;' - ,5 on. to. state that the proposal had been sprung.- upon members.' They werejisked .to.-ratify ■ the proposal,.: a t any rati mf r£??£?\ Z™ ■*?■ add ' ar ? el y '■*> «"> duty on raw.leaf tobacco -npon which .285 per cent. & "factnred-"tobacco, which,,p.aiaM6B P er cigars 80 per cent cigarettes 117 percent.; and snuff.272 rer cent. At present the working men paid ,tne State M. duty <m,every.:.plug.of-tobacco;hnder the npw proposal the 'duty ; w.6uld be raised to Bd. He.oouW.not .see why the duty on'sugar was' not reiraposed. ..'• - , ■ . ;,Mr. t TAYLOR .(Christehurch' -North). said that; there_ was;a good deal of confusion in connection, with.tho amendment;which- he moved in.Committee,; for 'tobacco Was involved, as well as beer and spirits. In order that there mightW a.clear-cut;issue, he would-move to the. effect, that portion, of the amount which the Minister for Finance designed to'raise by an . 1 5°"» f * : in. the/ Customs duty should be raised by, means of .an per oent. in the excise, duty levied on.beer'.' His proposed increase was.'.he said, "so small that, it wasim-, possible for ihe brewers to pass, it on tothe consumers. If, the brewers know that.the nroppsal was being,made, they would come down to .the_House and; ask that it should'be agreed ■i - ' /'' j ro >"as-"one- man ,in Wellington alone :a, year, as a result of his.interest m breweries. ■■'.-■ '■'■!■■•■ -Mr: '.WRIGHT '(Wellington South)'' seconded' the amendment. He said he knew of one miser-' able chanty, m- Wellington which paid to- the brewers a royalty of, per -year.' If that were the.case'inrregard,, to such'.aWdl place, how, much had. to be'paid in respect of farcer premises?. ■;.'/;..;;. : : ; ■.-...."-.. ; v >-.i. : -■.. -.--. •/ ?. |

Constant Alteration in Taxation/; : ;Mri : H3HU)JL4:N. Wellington North) thought it was ..remarkable: that,:, after a .lapse' of' onb a.-week, .the Government ahould-say that a -tax which it proposed in the BtHket should be:replaced by, another kind of tax, ■ It was only in keeping, with the/ general; conduct of the Government ,in : regaTd :• to',., policy. ■'■■ Coold the' mercantile community now.-rest assured' that another alteration of method mig'dt not take place? ; The constant. alteration.- in taxation wscrganised - commerce and-business. ... ~, Upon.a division the amendment was lost by 4J vote9\to 21 votes. •...■' •.••'"•- jEollowihg is :tKe;divisi6n list in regard to the amendment':-r-■;'.:'(': t -','•,.■ .--? 1 ■'-.-: ..-■ For. the amendment—2l.; '.. ..',", Anderson Malcolm •'••'-•'■'■'■"'■■ Arnold Mahder ' Brown Poland "-'..' Buxton Poole Dive Ross ■.■/'■• Duncan," J. • Scott ,■.-',"'■. EU / , Taylor, T.'-E. Fisher Thomson, G. M. Hanan ■• Thomson, J. C. .- Hme Wright /-.':•: M'Lafen , ■'■.■■'■~-- r .-■-'*' Against tho Amendmont-^H.:/';''.. ' Allen Hogg Baume Jeniungs ..-'■'■■■.!'•'■ Bollard / Lang, ■•'■' ■•.'■ '" .■■'.'■ Buchanan . Laurenson? ■- ■■'■■'■ Buddo Lawry i ■ ■■.:■■' •'. Buick M'Kenzao; \R, V Carroll , Massoy .'■'■■■:'■'■■': ■ ■.' Clark Ngata "■:;!''; ' Craigia Newman ' ".■'<';' sajeys a jey -Nosworthy ' <. v J .,\. Dillon Okcy Duncan, t Parata , ?, <-•:••' £ lel , d Phtfhppsji. ■:■■ v,•'■';*■ Forbes | \ Eccd ~'-.■. -v ',' <*' Fowlds Russell ', 'v - ; : - Eraser Soddon '"■:>■ A ■,■;.'■ Glover Sidey -■>. : v-. VGraham Stallworthy'•' A Guthrie i Steward ■-••'•'■•■ --■" -■' gardie Te Rangihir'oa.; Herdman Ward - ,r '-' Hemes Wilford >'■•■ •<'.?,

. ; ;Mr. : ..MASSEY;considered, .that, the proposed impost .on., tobacco consumers was, unjust. Taking the* imports for' 1908' as a' basis, the 1 per cent, primage oh tobaccbiwduld be-X3617; and mj P r ?P°sed: 2i .per, ceitt. : .surtax 'would be' #11,007...- The position in, regard' to spirits' was somewhat.; similar, :for, taking the figures foj 1908,.the primage duty.would come.to *£3017 and the proposed 'surtax .would amount to ,£14,960.' The fact: that soj.much ■ time had been'-. taken up' that afternoon was simply owing: to the uri-btisiness-1 jke;,•methods '•;ofi the.;. Government in bringing .down-proposals that. were., not well thought;' out .and were; not-' acceptable; tb the mercantile section of thd community..-He hoped there: would, bo no- further alteration; ; or- if .there'w'as>further, alterations-that,'ari ; attempt shonldbeVinade to place.the:burden of'taxation more'equitably on the shoulders'of the'eom-munity'than;-was,- now. proposed,.;.,'.': Threat .by the ;Prime; Minister.' • ■..'.■"•"■>. ". '■,' : ;The;PiUME "MINISTER ;.said it was-extra-' . ordinary-' to': him "that "when., a proposal '■ was made which .had been asked for 'from .the North ,Capa to the ißliiff -advantage should,be taken pf-.'-it >to;. make: jjarty i capital".* 'If :the< proposal had;been' to put. this.'taxation, which "was ■to provide,, for defence, on ..a,/section; of the community, ■' the Opposition would - have'.been the first to declaim against it.. The duty/on' tobacco would be only 1:l-20d: par,lb:.The'prqpdsal was going.tobe used for party'purposes.. ;He would undertake: to ; use .it for parjy-ptirposes ,■himself, , and ,he would consider' the'ipropriety of. abolishing.- this; proposal- for tobacco -and putting ; it oh the .'graduated •lahdtaSi/' He had not done this-' before, - as; he: considered;-' that levery.; class : of i.the' ..community,'•■ shouldXgive; something, towards the cost - of: defence. •',; Yet when he provided; for that an ,attempt' l .was-mad9'.fco .create party'"feeling'for.jjolitical 'purposes.', He be;lieved that ,2 tie -imports;:kept • up' they..would getUess revenue .by ; the. surtax than. they.would have got,by' the 1 per cent. !'primage ; ' duty. This- was only- a. resolution rto provide itempc-rarily.for-the. amount-of-''duty -named till the, Housedecidedjwheh'aißijlwas submitted as to whether this increase'was-'to' goon or not .till March,- 31,\'1911. : .:, Yet.-■ the proposal had ' been , discussed- at great'.length, .aid two. amendments had; been ...moved. of ,;• the? afternoon- and evening ';had ,';' '' ',"-" ,'.. '."Mr.;Massey.. Whose.faultf. >• ."' : -V Prime, Minister: What does thi hon. gentleman 'mean by .fault ?.\ :■-..., .-..'. (:::■.'.;,■ ; Mr.:Massey": Who blundered:'.in' the first •.'"•■'..-v ■'■.■■,'-"' : '- : " '- '•'•■ ; ■' • The'-Prime!Minister: -There was no blunder at l all.: The:. Government believed the one "petcent.:.primage duty to : be'a fair provision. By 'March,3l, 1911, they ought to be getting a great: deal more viiom; the Customs, and it ought not to be "necessary to continue the suxcharge.-:,-;:- ■; -,-.\ .:.;■;.;.... ;.; ■' Mr. Masssy Suggests an ■ Election. :Mr. MASSEY; pointed ont: that if the Treasurer thought \the"money :-was required in March,'. ,1911, \the- surtax - ;would, be. :coniinued. The Prime-Minister, was- asking PaxKament to increase'taxation by double the amount tliat wasiwanted for/defence, \ He never, liked the Dreadnought' proposals. If it were': necessary he .would: vote, in favonr'of an offer, of half-a 7 dozen :vesscls.; What ho. wished;to emphasise, however,; was that if .-the: Prime Minister had told ; the- people''that the Dreadnought proposals would- involve such taxation, he did not r think there. 1 would havo;been the almost unanimous, approval that there-was-in connection with ■ tlio. A offers',' Tho : Prime • Minister' must - have- known the actual position, and ho\had -no' right to, commit' the country to the proposed expondituro without .'consi'Jting the country.. Then,; again,-Sir Joseph had' made a; threat v that'he was prepared to back down from'sonie of his. proposals, and,"instead, propose; an 'increase"in tho graduatedtax. i No threat of ■ that kind would have the slightest' effect:,upon,those,who sat/ion the Opposition' Bide of. the House. He had : always hold 'that, every: man ...should contribute to..the revenue, according to?his ability: Seeing, that the PrimeMinister yha'd threatened'- the .Opposition, he might: tell him. that' he wasisoriously considering -whethor-. the: people; should not .'be, consulted ;by< way- of ?a; -.general., election-before the 'proposed .increases in- revenue ;wero: placed, oh: their''shoulders. -None of'tho new taxation proposals 'had: been before the .country. '.: .f ;. ~',.'A;voice!:;The* "Lords" may-throw them- out;'■ vMi'.'.'.MassoyiCl should.like; to:.see them! but •;t' : feel;;Bure"-.thoy ; won't, ..„'-■'.-:■'. , . .v. , .-. The Hon. 'E. MTCehzie i'■', \Vhy don't: you . jee '.that '„they.: go .bef on the ■'^country l, -~

Mr-, Massey: Speaking for myself, I might .say that I; am quite willing the people should be consulted. . . . ■ ■ Mr. Eaurenson: By way of referendum? . ,*• .Massey: No, by way of general election. Whilst there are- triennial elections, I can see no_need for, the referendum. , K (^ s ,^ n j n F> Mr. Massey'commented upon the fact that he'had been acbused of making political capital out of the taxation proposals. In reply, he might say that he would take evenopportunity, that • offered to do-that. Other Members' Views. -..-.' :,.M r . FISHER '-.'(Wellington Central) thought that Mr. Massey.'would' be taking the right course if Uo challenged the Government in regard to its .taxation proposals'., It was his opinion that the Opposition were strong enough to do that. -To the Prime Minister ho would siy: Bring down a proposal to increase the graduated land tax; He could assure him that the proposals would be well discussed. . M r -_LAURENSON- (Lyttelton) urged that New Zealand ,was the most lightly taxed country in the world. (Laughter.) Mr. Herdman: It's top of the list.. ' Mr. Laurenson referred to the income tax, which m New Zealand began at .£3OO and in B/ivain at fla week, and to the remissions of Customs duties. ' -" .Mr. WRIGHT (Wellington South) said" that .the taxation was now X 5 Os. 4d. per head, and had greatly increased , during the last ten-years. . /.He '.believed that. New Zealand stood very high in-regard to taxation as com-' pared with many of the States in the Commonwealth. The cost of livinf'wa's higher now than-it had ever'been. It was the continual moreaseof small amounts that made the taxation heavy. . ■'•■ Mr. ELL (Christehurch South) argued' that i tho increased taxation had not fallen on the workine man. :•' '■■'•%■'. ' ' .Mr. HARDY (Selwyn) nrqed : that'there 'were Opposition, members who/had the welfare of the workers at heart as well as those who were trading on their interests. '. What the Worker Pays. ■'"■' f. • Mr. HOGG (Ma'sterton) declared that a huge amount of amendment' must be 'made in the present tariff before it could bo said that the cost of living had been materially- reduced, lhe value of apparel and '.'slops"( imported last'year'was s .£77s,s99,'.on which the dutv was' most of which - came... out ''of \ the pocket 3 of, the working class. The duty on boots was ,£78,228, which was also mostly paid by the working people. They could call these protective duties if they liked. The duty on h-vpiy., was.-. .',47.866,'., chiefly- pail by the w „°„ r fe? s - „ The dnties on starch onions (.£2482), flour (jE14,508), floorcloth -(.£24,655) came largely-from , the -workin? men. Every worker in' New/Zealand paid, last' year' about £3:45. in Customs duties, and if a family were reckoned as five persons every working man with a family paid about vCI7. ';.'.... Prime Minister on General Election. "Tho,PRIME- MINISTER,' in the'course of his invited the Leader of the Opposition to movo a motion traversing the proposals oe' the Government in the Budget, and to eliniin' ato any /portion of- tho . sections intended tc : , make, up the, revenue .'required. 'When be moved it, let the Opposition say. how they proposed to raise the money.. Let them indicate how, thoy were going to withdraw from the Droadnoughit proposal,' ,which ; was uhaniniously agreed to by tho House during the short session." The Government had to raise money for the-'Dreadnought,,.for internal defence, and for /two superannuation funds. It was not true that the, Government's proposals provided for/excessive; taxation.; The proposals in regard to death duties, banks, and racing clubs would have "been submitted quite apart from the question 'of > defence;,' It was not within, the j)Ower,of'.;the Leader of/the ..Opposition to make/the. .Government appeal, to .the country on the proposals till overy member of the House had voted on. them..-, If -the Government was then defeated, a request, could 'be' made in the-ordinary way for an appeal to the country.. .Mr. Massey: You, know there is. another course, open'that .would-compel' you to appeal to.the country; ;';';, : ..■.,■■■■ ■■'■',- • '■-■'' -

The Prime Minister: I know what the courses 'are,; audi J have a'very fair idea how. to navigate .those.courses. .Had'he not told the country before, the last general selection that he intended to.bring down proposals with regard to internal defence? ;. '.." :■■' ".:

Mr.,Massey: Very..vaguely!.' ,'; , Tho Prime Minister said he had never given expression 1 to tho wild, impossible general propositions thajt some members made who now talked of their: desire to'protect the people from .increased taxation, but who had themselves ■made- suggestions for /internal'., defence that" w6'illdhave n co6t'the''country from £400,000't0 .£600,000.,. It was. not true that -he was asfcing ; for tvjico a's.rriucTi':as'"was'reciuired.''for''d<!fence. The Houso. was. beingi.asked. by. the Opposition to ignore, its own action in regard to Dreadnought, .n'rid-.; "appeal ; to-' the country. Mr.. Fisher had suggested an! appeal on ;this question of .the Dreadnought; '■"'''• ■ .' Mr. Fisher: That;is a fiction;-' • . The Prime. : Minister said-Mr. Fisher ihad. agreed to the.offer jwheri; itiwas unanimouslyadopted by. the HouseT' Mr. Massey invited ■the"Government-to appeal -to the,-country, : be-, fore it 'had an opportunity of. the proposals to the House and'•'asking its own! party"to,decide on them." Certainly the Government would not do so.. >The constitutional' position ..was, that the Government' should fob-: tain the 1 decision of'the House on the proposals, and it intended to do so. ' y .-, ."■.' -.-; ■..'.■,■.■.'.:.:■■ /...:.-.., .■■: Finishing By Christmas, y . .- ■- :.'„■.. ,

They had done very'little.that day.'; At the- rate '.'they were * going on it .would !not be possible; to finish, before Christmas, and ho, 'recognised,.-'that they had got to.-meet early' ■ ncjjj > year;'. tp_ carry on- the.work from 'the point'where it was left .at' Christmas. 'He,' wanted to avoid it by ovcry possible means.' The total amount raised by general govern-' ment taxation, fell .under, the headings Customs and excise,: land taxi income tax,, arid .'stamps duty. 'Of:these'only the. land tax and tho income tax could be affected by an increase in the amount of taxation. The Government had nqthing to 'do with' the increase in the Customs or -stamps duties, 1 which was due entirely -to the. amount of business carried : out. . Those who spoke of the Government.'beingV .responsible for the' increase: .in' ; the amount of,' taxation per head, when stamps and Customs were included, misled themselves and the public. The remissions in Customs duties last year amounted to .£400,000. -.' When the'-, individual Bills "• were before the' House he .would be, very glad -.to judge what the feeling-of tho House was, and that was the right time. to. talk of whether they'were going to set their sails ■ for.a run into the! intorior of 'New Zealand. .The; necessity ■ had 'not: vet arisen, and if it did arise, ahd:thd, K House gave a decision against the Government, he would accept the, position unflinchingly. '..'■., \ The resolution was- then adopted, and referred to the Committee on. the Customs Bill. ; '' NEW GOVERNMENT BILLS, V The;following new Bills were introduced by Governor's- Message:—Lands for Settlement Administration, Laid Bill, Naval Defence Bill and Death Duties BilL All; the ; Bills were read a first thno..

-STATE GUARANTEED ADVANCES. :,BIU-DISCUSSED,IN COMWITTEEv _ The disoosaon in Committee of the State Guaranteed Advances Bill waa then resumed The PSIME MINISTJEE said he wanted to see t^> Act. brought into operation as soon as possible.■'. In the meantime, loans to local bodies: would be dealt -with just as if the Act .was not coming into effect. Mr. MASSEY objected to the first clause which proposes that the Act, when it is a°Teed to by Parliament, shall only come into operation, on Gazette it suited the Executive," said Mr. Massey. Jhe;PBIME 7 MIOTSTEE >S aid it>as done bothm .New Zealand and' Australia. ■■> • Mr.. MASSET said-he had never known an instance of it. He did not know why a <ki» should not bo fixed for the comine into (^ tl -°iLK' thi l4,? Ild *l«s-Land Settlements Administration Bill—say, the beginninH of thA now year. ! * . ■ "" _The. PBIME MINISTER said the second Bill; might not be passed by then, and he wanted them both to como into operation together. Mr. JAMES ALLEN said the whole work of prominent might as well be landed over to two or three men. It was, a farce to call Parliament together to legislate. ..This Bill had nothing to do : with land settlements Mr. MAISEY moved the deletion of the words: And it.shall come into operation on a date to»be named by the Governor bv not™ •!£*». 2^ tiiS ; P^ 1 : "ejected When Clause 3 was. reached, ■■ Mr. BERRIESI asked if an indication could be given as to who would be appointed superin, tondent. He .thought a board should be established to control tho Department ' .The.PEIME-MINISTER said he thought the Department, would require to' -be, separate (so> far as. its head was concerned)' from other ■ Departments. He could not give, the information that was.required.- ; - ;, ,: ■■ ■ .Mr. 'MASSET,. took, excoption to. .Sub-clause' i of Clause 4, which states lhat Section 4 of the Civil. Service Act shall -not, apply to the. appeintment of. the superintendent -or doputr. Pubta servants jihouldW encouraged to aspiro

.The PEIME MINISTEE replied that so far as he knew it was. not contemplated to get anybody outside tho Civil Service, but ono could not tell whether such might bo : necessary'in

During the discussion on . Sub-clrinso 1\ of Clause 11, which gives the power to the superintendent to sue and be sued,' - Mr MASSEY. said he wished to offer his congratulations to the Government upon its action in inserting the provision,' and hoped a similar clause would bo provided in other measures. ; Mr.' HERDMAN thought the superintendent should bo made independent of Ministers, but responsible to Parliament, as was the case in Te f& ri to certain officials in New South Wales. ■ The PJUME MINISTER, said he could not accept tho responsibility, for any alteration such as was proposed. : Mr. BUCHANAN (Waitarapa) was.of opinion that the board should iucludo more than two' persons other than officers of the- Civil Service, but the Prime Minister did not favour'tho proposal.' ' .

Upon a division, Sub-Clause 2 of' Clause 13 (which provides that in the absence of any ox officio member other' than the. Minister, his deputy, if any, may attend meetings of the board) was retained by 35 to 23. ■' ' • .-Mr, FEASEE, (Wakatipu) regretted that provision was not made,to'enable settlors to borrow money for the purposes of irrigation. . Sir, JOSEPH WARD said he was not averse to the proposal, but it'should bo included in a Mining Bill or Land Bill. Mr. HEADMAN (Wellington . North) moved that the cases in hvhich money might bo ad- ; vanced should be.reduced by the deletion of the following words,: "To mining companies and persons as guaranteed mining advances unde'r.Part V of the Act." - '•■■:■ (Wellington Central) mentioned that it was proposed, that the Minister and not the board should make a grant to mining companies. .- ■ ■ ' ■■•'■ .-.•'■. Sir JOSEPH said thai at present the Minos Department mado advances to mining companies, but it was' proposed .to. abolish tl-rit power and'provide certain powers in the Billin. question. ■' *. -~■-"■•■•; (Left Sitting.).-. -.-■. ■'