BUDGET DEBATE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 667, 18 November 1909, Page 5

BUDGET DEBATE.

; -iM' & '^E^SbN:(Lytteit6nj,.ifeuming ■■ V• '■ : - : '■■■i e '-,r fl ■ t*. on 'the Budget, : said that-the essence' v; ; V'': ; :-,9fj]to,v-XvB.-';Taylor's-amoBdmyt'. (that-'the .;;,., people should-be asked by,.;way of referendum ;'.:.' .-/ . \ whether,' any/more Crown ■ lands. should bo- 6old) ;■■'.•...^'commended-.itself: to'himijbut,-it waacouqhed /in' snohoffenaTe'.and derogatory; leriaa t'p the' :.•:",.V Prime•Minister l .that it'iwas'impossiblefor him ■;■;{.': c.tq'rappoitrit.-;;'HaQ , 'Mr^Taylor i ;ie^t.out:.of ;..■.*" ■•' >■ his'-amendment..the'/words 'in 'question, every' :;■;;; ,!'■] the. r ;'Hoirse -have followed V/V//\:'^V'-:^;- t he'' , lo D by.'^;' a HB M --beUeved: , that 'the //,.;;.: limot.was not'far.,distant-when'there: would be '■'■■ . subb/va protest' j as'.'to': make Tthe' Primi) Minister ,; '.;..;'. ;w'ah'M". that .'there -was'- a large' body of people /: ~'^.,who ;.the-'leasehold.'-:'--iWith / regret :: al Sd v |6hame,v he .'A would } point " -out ••'■ that .in .-■■-::■: ■';- the • House..,,fa v.majority > of. the /.-/:;.. members snpported-the sale of the Crown lands. . //On theiGoyernmßnfcf'sideithCT'e/weii"!21 !■ lease. 1 : ;• :■','' holders; of the Independents three- were lease- /;,>: /■ , .Op'pdsition.there were v, :wtwo) leaseholder's/. ; Omitting; the Speaker, >' out ...-:; : were ; : .;',: ireehpldfrff.'.'-'lffa reasonably-clean amendment .v.-.,. .;.-■ -iwerflj? proposed .that -i the //question -of ..'tenure ■;.>■ -,:■ should be,, laft; to a I referendum,' or the - ■'■ v '.question;as to'/whether 'any more Crown lands' , :; >. should heiold, he would/support it. ; Especially would he appeal-to Messrs. Fisher and Wright •-.■-..">..-.sto : vote i againstthe/amendment. ■. • v:.;?Mti>?isher:Ul intend;to'/support 'it. /v.'-/' V ' :;,V; |«M kTAy LOR'S-AMENDMENT/INVALID.) .V;';/• ;'''.-.y Mi\, POEBES-(HurunuiV asied'for a ruling ■ .Taylor's/ amendment 'was' in ;''-/- iv-ordfr; /seeing,that'-there, was- a: motion to a /',.'.' Bimilar;.effect standing'; on-the Order Paper.' "''■' '-/ ; ;:./,/The'. SPEAKER, in reply, .said that since-the'. pubhcation of the. Order, Paper he had had the .; matterjunder consideration.-Eule''42B said that V; 1 '"" J° /amendment on. Supply could not be ■moved ■:■!".'•','.;' to debate a' ; natter of which: notice of motion " J - -/" .kadib'een given by.the same*member. 'In'.view :'/:, ■-~- of ./that rule'/he was' bound ;to declare, the amendment?out .of-order.,.: A' difficulty arose,'. " : -.'■■■'• - : , however.-as.. to /whether'those who' had spoken .to i v tte amendments lost, their right to. speak .-..■■;-,-■.'■.-again/if another-amendment to the,same effect ,;■ ./were'moved.'/It was/for the /House' to guide -./.-. him On the question; $■":.:•'■"■■ '..-'. •';•. ■'.- ::}:]::■ \\ that.permis- .-.- Bioribd .given 'those'.members- who: had spoken • on , Mr. .•Taylor's.' amendment to'speak on any : .otheri amendment, that/might bo'moved.'-,'

:;^'U; AN'INTERESTI,NG-POINT. ■ ■'.!./' Later,'. Sir : ;J6seph''-said "if was' a question ■'•.".; ; whether' the' record :of the "debate 'since, the . amendment was moved shonld not be' deleted './/; Y.frdmi/Hansard.:'v// ':'/-'i ~-:■■;!. '■• •-'•:■..-'■ -•''.■■ -. ■■~' >'■•'■-Members:"Oh{.<' ;: y 1 :;■';'/'-' -..,/''■': ':■.■ :j Sir. 'Joseph:' If,ithatfs not''done' it will be uri-' . fair >to those.who'would havo 5 liked'to reply/ "The SPEAKER: Would' liketime to'go into .-;>-. .-.. that question: v* '"';■; ','..• ■ ■'.-■'■ /■ ..'.. :'Mr.'.BAJJME -remarked'that if .theleasehold.|v l (j e'rß.who : hod already spoken on the-.land ques-. •W '; tion were-allowed ;• to speak again .they' would •: /-' have two'speeches to one speech by the free-' /'.' holders who had'not yet .spoken;',> - The SPEAKER-Those members'who have al-' ,' \-": ,re^dy;\;;Bpoken ;: v;hav'e;'.';been-.throwing' 'their ;. ... eloquence ..to .the.»winds because:' they-, have .:been- speaking.:"on,- something which had. no V .' chance of ■being(carried..'V-: -v// '?< A- ■ '■' :■■ Mr. :; MASSEf: pointed out' that mombors 'who . ( tqok.,the^oppprtirnity.,to..speak' : to the/amend-: :'"■' ment did not confine themselves to the amend- .':., ■ meat.';.; ;.He7hoped 'that'- tho • Prime' Minister. won]dj;not;'recbmmend,;the. -House; to have the .; ' ...speeches', on .the ..amendment -deleted'; from' Han- ;.;' .\/sard. ■ /-V/'.;/".' : .'/':' /'/' V-;;' •'■'■.''":".■.■' '■••'■ ; sc P fl: 'I; to ask that' that ■■;■■■',.■ should :be done.-:;-Hv' ; .:''.'" " .':■":'■■'■' ,:The'SPEAKER,'-'replying to:'Mr; Hogan,' ™sd that any .member, who. had. already spoken had; alight; to .speak .on- any'further-.auiend-..ment,'cut would-have no /right-to move an • ;;ainendnlent t ontho;questioh themselves.'/ :-• ■ : «.. Six ■> Joseph; was ..then;. allowed to withdraw ...Ms .motion.'.:-.-,:,-'.'"''.-;;

; MR, RUSSELL MOVES SIMILAR AMENDMENT. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) then moved as 1 pa, amendmont: — "That a system of leasehold should be maintained as an integral part of the land tenure of the Dominion, and that a reterendjm should bB taken befoie the proposals i n ""• granting the right of the freehold to .nearly all the Crown tenants are given effect to." The PRIME MINISTER asked whether Hie ftmendmont/>as in older, in view of the 'fact that thcrojWis a.motion on the.Ordor Paper ne question of a referendum on the subject. . Mr - TAYLOR: lam the only one'who is -* ™ SotT?™"-? 8 , 6Uch aa amendment. The fc-PEAKER held that the amendment was in order. Mr. RUSSELL, speaking to his amendment, j referred, to the history of land settlement. , The proposals made by Mr. Eolloston rolated tc ' a which uas the best that had been , put forward in New Zealand. He was sorry that in the administration Df the present laws tho clauses granting preference to landloss people had not been carried out in the spirit, ns well as in the' letter, of the statute. Under the land for settlements system the masses of the people had not benefited. Whilst the freehold tenure was available ho dofied tho Government, to bring in a law which would prevent rcaggTegotion. It was a question now which of the two partins could bid the'higher for tho votes-of tho Crown tenants. The end would bo that the whole freehold would be granted. Thi) Government had sacrificed tho entire, principles of -tho leasehold party, and were not going to satisfy tho otheT Tho proposals! would not wipe out tho leasohold party, who, Mr. Russell asserted, had a majority of the country behind thorn. There had been suggestions from timo to time of a coalition between tho moderate members of tho liberal party and the Opposition. The only proposals on which that coalition could be formed were' the Government's proposals 'ou tho .^OBi-ailiistinil—.•Tf-Uw.W-nlfr at UtlKa nrnr,n=»l =

should be. an'lndependent .Labour . party, or Something of tliat kind, Uiat would attract a large' number of Government leaseholders, the responsibility-would have to rest on the leaders, of the Liberal party in , connection with thqir. abandonment of principle. Income derived from personal labour: should not pay so much tax as' income; derived from money ,lent or legacies. -A concession 1 should be made in regard;to income derived from' industries,-and unmarried persons of both sexes should pay more than those who wero'married and had families. ■ • .; ■ , Mr.' Baumo East) asked if the amendment could bo.put in two parts.', ; The Speaker said.it was difficult to see, how to divide it. Mr. Hanan (Invercargill) objected to any 'alteration. ■.';.■;• V AMENDMENT LOST. ■ ;■ The amendment was lost by 50 votes to 17, the division list being as'under:— . '.> :' FOE THE AMENDMENT (17): ■~' ■ ■'! Arnold,. .■M'laron-'-. ..-'-. Poole ' ■Davey .' : Eussoll ' -'. Fisher . . Seddon : .Forbes Sidev . ' Hanan :. " "■ Taylor, T. E. . Hogan ■;. . .. • . , -:, Witty."- : Laureuson '. .'Wright' '■'■ Luke . . •■. ■'■'■' '■ -'. ':.. AGAINST, THE,. AMENDMENT (50):.' ..Allen '■;.''. ,'■'■'•:"'.■'• Macdonald Anderson MaCenzie, Hon. E. Baume- ' Mackenzie, Hon. T. Buddo • Malcolm Buick.. ' .- . - ..-'■.. Mander " ■ ■: :, ■ Buxton' : ..Massey Carroll . ■.'. 1 Millar • Clark .."■;■. .;;. Ngata .'■ . '.Dillon -..'.;,. Newman', Dive \.: . . Nosworthy Duncan, .Hon. f.,Okey Duncan,'X- . ■'•'■. Parata . •' Field .:.■.. ■■ .;■ Phillips • , ' ,Fowlds Pojand. . Wraser ' ."_.." Heed . Glover V .'Rhodes .Graham ,;-'.- Eoss Guthrie "- ! ! ~ '.'■'' Scott Hall- -'.'. ;:, Smith : Hardy-.-.. , : Stallworthy : .'. .. Herdman - ; V.' '. „. Te Eangihiroa: • •Hemes '. 'Thomson, G. M. '■ Hine' Thomson, J. C. .'■• ; Jennings -, •' ;Ward . Lang:,-., ~•• - . Wilford ~:'• ■ ■'. SPEECH BY.MR.FISHER. ; / -'. Mr. -FISHER (Wellington -.Central) said hethat:_since the,.session of 1905,; when a somewhat similar /amendment -was moved, they'had; been able to lift the total of the leaseholders .in the House from 11-id 17, but it was surprising to-see men who had spent their private means on.land nationalisation propaganda only.-four -years ago, voting .now in the - direction of -parting with: the national endowments.: He was surprised that the member.for Lytteltoh,-who'had' taken part in that propaganda, .could allow, himself to vote.for other 'because'tho amendment was couched "•in language of- ; which ho did hot.entirely.approve. Ho was at a loss also to reconcile Mr. Fowlds's'support, .of" the' Government's prop6sals" with his,former -attitude.; .Mr:, Fisher contrasted ' the" fair. statements ' of. the Govern- • ment the,'.year '> with. the increases; now. proposed'in' taxation. 'He, believed .that- the ■true'' financial position was; only realised;.'by the',:Government, when they found' that' they ;wero'.;reaching;the"bo'ttdm"of.the-publio purse. In.view.of the retronohment' in the Civil Service :_and' other .savings, ,'the sum:'of <6«S,000 ■ mentioned,in.,the Budget.didmot;nearly represent., the amount of,new .taxation... He : would not .beSurprised if in;l2 months' .time another increase ;or 'taxation. was necessary. . Victoria ■had. : paid' : off ..£1,014,000 of'.its national debt last, year;; and had required; to 'raise, no loan, and', the Treasurer had brought, down a. staitement '• which ■' show-ed that' of -the loan money .raised' by- the .'State 93 per'cent: was invested iin ;reprodnctiye 'works, 'as :against'.66' per cent.in ;Niwi:Zealand.; ■ 'Mr. ,'Fishfcrl quoted speeches made by iMi. Fowlds before heTjecame a Min.ister to.show-that.his .views;oh:the land question were very different then.'from ■ those wiich hehadexpressed-the'previous.day. Would Mr. 'FoTvlds' 'still:'endorse the:'statement '■: made /'by him Yin Dunedin.-thatif-it was right thatltho State-.lessees should acquire the freehold it .'raust'ib'e'right' for the lessees' of educational endowments to acquire the; freehold? Did'he still' believe that "the' very; idea, of- selling land 'was an.afcsp,rdity".?.Mr.'.:llillar,'.alsoi. had stated that- he , would sit : in .".the ". Heuso for months before he would allow, a proposal to be carried to; give the freehold to ,Crown>• tenants.'• At a 'Maskelyne performance 'one 1 would see a person wriggle himself into, a pickle..bottle, and'eet out again, and he believed that Ministers did something, similar when they entered the Cabi-net-room..' The Land Finance Guarantee Bill was'characterised by Mr:: tho biggest land--gambling Bill that had ; been brought down-in. the House. Eeferring to the odwnces ;to.,S6ttlerssystem;'he declared that'the requirements of the most'deserving, classes should-be attended to" first. It was .well'known'that the Government had discouraged private capital from coming into. the Dominion. He wanted to see! a proper,land settlement'policy,,so that' people would be prevented' from 'leaving .the Dominion.. If the Land 'Bill came down in the form designed in.the'.Budget it would meet w.ith very stubborn opposition., i : •■'>•.'.

M^R. v FbRBES ON THE LAND QUESTION,

Mr. POEBES (Hurunui) thought- the question" of:.national military training was one which should bo submitted to the people. He believed that the people would heartily support, the proposals on' that/ question in- the Budget. Every encouragement should be given to ride clubs. The proposals on the lahu question were a disappointment to him. The retention of the '■ Crown lands would. result in the lessening of. taxation./ The value-.'of the leasehold system hod been strikingly shown in New'' Zealand, particularly in Canterbury. When the .freehold was given away, the Government' could ' not; insist:'; on residence, nor prevent aggregation/'. ' - : '. /,:"'./'' Sir Josoph:. Wait till you see the Bill.: " ■ - Mr. Forbes' declared .that the speculator was the-'only one' who benefited by the, grant'of the /freehold. The feasbif why the-leasehold system had' come into i disfavour in the North Islandi .was /that the Crown: had not : done sufficient•;■ roading. • Encouragement should- .be giyen for the prompt payment of rent. He , did not blame the Government in regard to the land proposals, .which had been forced ■■ upon,.it' by, the public Public opinion was hot right /in - this .'instance. / '

:•; MR. HERDMAN'S SPEECH/ i /• Mr.-HEEDMAN/(Wellington /North) 'agreed that the. Government had been forced into the'position of proposing- to grant the freehold. He would, like to know, however, how itcame about, that the Government had turned a'compete somersault on .the question within two years, rho present, policy^• might..-be aptly described .as Vtho going down on their bended ;/knces .. and -asking' for-' votes policy.";. He. thought Mr."Mossey:was' to bo 6ongratulated'on-tho fact.that'he haddriveu the Goyemment into adopting his policyon the question.' When a radical change was made'by a Government m its policy,: the custom was for it to resign or to appeal to tho country.Sir Joseph: We don't, know anybody on the otherside who is fit to take our.places. " Mr: Herdman: I venture to say that if the people had a taste of the management/of their affairs-by Mr. Massey and his followers for eighteen months or.so they'would wonder how they had stood the management of the country -by the Prime Minister and his colleagues for .so long. . Continuing, Mr. Herdman pointed out that only'twelv.e months-ago the. Government went '.to the country, pledged to the leasehold policy Was it not an act of treachery, on the part of the Government to wait until they were again securely in'their seats' and then reverse' their policy,? If a Government in power.et Home had seen fit to change its policy it would havo appealed; to the country. . The licensing proposals were, so far, very indistinct and in definite; .the taxation, proposals were totally unwarranted ;• and /the , defence : proposals, ' he understood, had been feloniously appropriated.'

Increase of the Public Debt. , ; v 'During the six or seven prosperous /years which were experienced prior to last year, the Government had ; a splendid opportunity to strengthen the position; and' stability of the country. If tho management Had been efficient-there-would, have been no need for additional taxation, and the country' would have been able to provide the Dreadnought and could have hau its defonce proposals. Last year no' less than .£4,484,000 was added to the public dobt.. Since March 31' last Parliament had authorised two loans, one of .£1,325,000 and ono-of jE1,250,f100, and it was proposed in the Budget to raise £2,000,000 in connection with tho Dreadnought. It would thus bo seen that it was proposed this year to increaso the'public debt by .£4,575,000. Added to that sum was tho £148,000 which the Government intended to take from the pockets -of '. the people through its now taxation proposals. H the whole of tEe money was:raised;it would mean that the Government would: have over, and ■ above the ordinary revenue vJE5,023,f1f10 toVoxperid this;year; ' ' Sir Joseph: Thoamonnt includes the Dreadnonglit.■'•■';•!:':':.;'.-■.. ■ : -' '-';.''"'"'- ; '■ .--. Mr. :Herdman (rcsnmingr asked when,-the mad gallop on tho partof the Government was going; to stop. It was .interesting to note that the expenditure in: connection . with; all. but ihree'of the .Departments';had gone up since ,'1906. JHadauy..valid- submitted for ..tlM»'-.i"OTOao^l:jiwTw,«^fKt-»^ : .;«-*UJ«-JJ«—ii-^-'-i---

increase which totalled■ ifil;67o,oofl? .The Departments of State had bolted, there'had been lack of administrative wisdom and extravagance and waste displayed. Could it bo argued that tlio public business had grown.in proportion to this increase of expenditure? If this waste had. been prevented the interest on the Dreadnought could have been paid without a special loan. Whenever the Government wore in a difficult position and afraid to. face tho music they .sheltered themselves behind a Royal Commission. The ; Nativo lands and timber problems should have been dealt with by the Government itself. Was it not a travesty that a Government should be in power for 17 or 18 years and at the end of that time be unable to present a comprehensive, sensible, and logical Native land policy? Ho believed that the report of the limber. Commission; was of very, little benefit to anyone. The increase in land, values' was chiefly due to the increased prices received for products. •. Mr. Herdman criticised the system of borrowing on short-dated debentures, and asked' if the Prime Minister would be able to inscribe all his stock when'the amount of short-dated debentures had increased. It would be better to go' on' tie London market and float, a large loan and be dono with'it, rather than practise this underhand, surreptitious mode of borrowing. As a shareholder in the State, he invited the Prime Minister, as chairman of New Zealand, Limited, to give him a little more information on financial matters than the shareholders had had so far. The man with money to'invest should be encouraged by the country. Mr. Herdman ,read a statement made by Mr., Roosevelt to the people of East .Africa—a growing' State—in which he said: "Most certainly .there are excellent openings for capitalists here. Ample inducements should ■be offered' :tbem to come, and you can't expect them to come unless, hut you must not be horrified if they make money. Don't make things out better ttan they are. Treat the capitalists well." Mri Herdman corfcluded with a plea for a State policy that would encourage self-reliance, instead of brain softening and dependence.- \ -' ,; MR. ELL'S REMARKS. .Mr. H. G. ELI, (Clrristchurch South) quoted figures to show the growth of industries. He donied that capital had been driven out of the.country. Increases of business in connection with the various Departments were quoted with 1 the object of justifying the increased cost of the Departments. The taxation proposals of the" Government were; defended by Mir..-Ell. ..■'. ; MR. HERRIES'S VrEWS: LAND AND FINANCE. Mr. HERMES (Tauransa) 1 summed up the land policy in the words Smith or Hockly?" He;hopedthat there would be another Eangitikei election, so that, the last barrier to'the. freehold might \be swept; away. He .tiought: .'that- the' Land Bill was' too valuable''a'' thing to be trotted out this session; it. would probably ._ be reserved' till just'..before .the general election. The Opposition were not opposed to 'the-leasehold; they-had always favoured '• the optional system, by which it was made a step- ; ping-stone to the freehold. . He prophesied that the Government would capitulate further before the next election. He would tell the Crown. tenants,/when they' bad a Government that could' be squeezed, to'r squeeze it with effect.- The-financial operations of the. Government .were .wrapped in mystery...-. Most peculiar transactions took place, and there .was not a word about them in the Financial Statement. :Tbo Government was very'careful, that local •bodies should not "juggle with/their accounts,- : that ■ money borrowed for' abattoirs should' not .be used for street ■ lighting,' but' the' Government;'was not troubled in that way. The Financial Statement, did not give sufficient information about'finance, but. was largely\oomposed .of policy proposals which should appear ■in the Governor's. Speeehl The Prime' Minister should not say in the: Budget, that an' .amount of ,£826,850 had been "paid off,", when it had been paid, off only by the issue.of,-new 'debentures/ On February 1,1910, ,£478,573 an the' New Zealand Consols Account: came duo, ;and :,he .. asked ; if 'it; was worth while oontinning that account. Last, year : only '£l2i'".'■ was put in Now Zealand Consols. It was:unfortunate for the, Dominion thatitho amount'.of debenture stock was increasing as compared. with the inscribed stock. : Details should have been given l as to how tho'sinking fund in connection.with the Imperial guaranteed loan was-, allocated; '''■'■ ' '.'' I

Railways, Taxation, Etc' He would -suggest that ■ the- Railways State- , mentshould.be/Qiscussed.as.muchas the Public" Works Statement. The-.railways were; too great-to be made a plaything' of party. He drew-attention to the great difference between the earning power of.the railways.in the Sduth ; Island as compared with that' of the "railways in the' North Island. ;,■•/--.'-.'.,■/:■■.-:,•. Sir Joseph: There is a very'great,loss on the Otogo Central railway. Mr. Hemes, said it was evident ; the'.'.'loss could not have been'all'on the line just mentioned. He declared that-i the' New Zealand railways so.far as productive power was concorned did not compare favourably with those of the States of the Commonwealth.. Anyone who looked at the Estimates would see that the proposed saving in Departmental expenditure of '.£250,000 was . not apparent It was unfair ] for Government members to ask .'members of . the: ./ Opposition to state where retrenchment could be/: effected. He trusted that 'the., report of the' special committee on retrenchment would be laid before members;. With regard to/the proposed extra taxation there was at least'one part of it—the primage duty—which would be strenuously opposed. ; Mr. Ell ..had ■ stated ••recently that the people: in general would not have to pay for the Dreadnought. Would the Frime Minister say that the primage duty would not be felt by all classes of the community?. ' '.Sir •Joseph: 'Do .you suggest •'that anybody should-get off paying his share towards de- ■ ■■_' , ... ■ ~ ;.'' ■ ' .'.-; ■:. Mr. .Hemes:,No.' . Sir Joseph: I. am. quite prepared to shift,ll if you like. '/; ; ,■; "/: "■••''..- '-v Mr. Hemes, continuing, said' that' he was not opposed to a graduated. income tax. Ho was 'not', e.verse to the raising, of additional taxation from, racing clubs, but he hoped that less haste -would be shown-in conhbetion with tho proposed legislation than was the case in connection with' the recent gaming legislation, i The present Hativo land law was admirabh, but itWas like the penny-in-the-slotbusiness;'it would not work unless the machine was wound iip, and the-trouble was that as' it was: never wound up it was impossible to work it. There were traces of a more sane policy in the proposed/measure,, relating to' Naiiye.-. lands. x PRIME MINISTER INREPLY,

I The PRIME .MINISTER commenced-to reply at 11 p.m. He said he fully recognised' that i there had been a departure'in reference to the [ land question, Which he would refer to.later. The Leader >of the Opposition, in referring to the. increase of the debt, had not referred to. 'the assets,* and in dealing with the,new taxa-, tion. of tho Budget,forgot to":mention the pur'poses for Which it was' intended; .He was justified in making provision in case the Customs shrinkage of the first half-year should.be continued. l The Leader of the Opposition had : voted for:'all the loans'that ha' had.criticised. .Sir Joseph referred to Mr. Herdman as a very extraordinary man, who .was really too good ; for. this world. : Mr. Herdman was'always telling the same gloomy, miserable, droary-talo of 'incapacity and extravagance,' and he was so 'one-sided that the only thing,he could see in ! the finances of the country-was: the expondi■ture. His eyes were blind: to the increased revenue, and his one object seemed to bo to jput things in their worst light. He should take :a lesson' in humility, and, having had no experience .of'office on his own part, he should not be always talking as'if he could do things ■far better than the. Ministry. : ,

Reply to Mr. Alien. .'.'Tho-one anxiety, of. Mr, Alloa seemed to be 'to put him (the Premier) in Vvrong: position, 'but he would give him a Roland for his Oliver !every. /time. •' Mr. Allen had .not : been" able to point out one instance where he had underestimated the finances or misled the House ■with regard: to financial, affairs;'-' He fell back on the position taken up in regard to the superannuation, system. He inferred that the Prime Minister was a,false, guide.because ho proposed far providei ;..a'-. year- for the' railway /superannuation'.'" system. Mr. Allen should "have eulogised '' him' ■for putting.the Railway Department in that -position. The total amount '■ that was in tho funds of the various superannuation departments was £HB,OQO, and tho total annual contributions to. th© whole of the- funds amounted 'to .$10,306.: The-one tad which, in his opinion, was not vcas the. police fund, !and the reason "was that-the', numbers in it were insufficient. Mr. Allen forgot that he (tho Prime Minister) always urged that the Pubiio Service superannuation ischeme should be conducted on an actuarial basis. He thought that all; these- schemes should be < put on a common, basis, and that later on -their- funds should bo , paid into.-, one pool, to be held jointly in. tie of the whole; of tho' Departments, concerned, • with a Government guarantee for all of them. Referringjp the expense of: Government buildings, tho Prime Minister said that the : vote for.Government House i .included, the; rental .for aV; temporary Governor's ■ residence and .gardeners';-wages, which would be' paid in any case.';■••. It : included also the cost'of the necessary■• alterations |to; tho old r. Government House to .fit ft "-.for the . use :.6f. Parliament.' It s.was . -.utterly misleading , to: say ..-that ~.£10,000 had heon; spent, on. the.Governors .house-''and_.jp.

regard to retrenchment in the Railway Department alone, the saving by reductions amounted to £85,000, and that; saving had definitely and permanently resulted in addition to the net result shown on the Estimates: This was despite the fact that the Department.had taken over many miles of new. railways. J: The Retrenchment Scheme.,? ■^./.^■:-.v''^.? ; P They should givo retrenchment a fair, trial before •, they commenced gibing: and ; smiting. The Government was conducting its/retrenchment scheme with decency; he was sorry? that it was. not yet finished.'. If they had a Public Service. Board it would put. in Mr. Hordraan's friends.and turn everyone.'else: out. of billets. With regard to the fall of ' .e55,000 : in' the revenue,..he urged that the.-result"was.'mag-nificent compared with other, conntrie'sfor. that year. Moreover, it was on top of concessions' to tho; ; amount of to ..the people', of New Zealand. The 'statement that the expenditure had been increased by £1,300,000 /would probably .bo..cabled \ to, Sydney ', and "England, and nothing. would be cabled about- the inctease in / the ; revenue. That '■ was' -. the,' sort ■of >V ln Sr ■ Sid:;the country - infinito injuryMr. Massey had. accused the Government of' maladministration;, without .putting his-.', finrer on one ,single.instance. Mr. Allen, who cr'ed out Tor ecpnomy, had urged, two sessions ago, that the, Government should, spend;<. two millions. , on. '■' new .Parliamentary ,- buildings .and... : . site, ' and" £300,000 ,:■■ to;. carTyme ' ,°-V , tho rail-' 2',,t* and others did not think, should on without a proper system be ng established. That very day Mr "/llei had his ow n .tetnjj to rm he had. in . the past ■". made other extraordinary, outrageous,. improper, reckZ' nl^ 638 *? to obtain mOMy from the public treasury.. Mr. Allen's, talk of S? J?J #*** hypocrisy pure and simple. Government liad been reducing feVm £? Apartments'much against „■ i *%?i.{ he Crests of economy. ,It was f" 1 , the expenditure which was beinl saved should never have been incurred, but as a 'result of the amalgamation of the Land and Income Tax and Valuation Departments L Y <?J y '^l snra had been B!ive(l ' reducing statts, and the same practice had been followed with other branches of the service. It wasnecessary at times to go.on the Stock Excnanges; at other times it was more economical «JrT $ e system , whicll he sometimes adopted. He recognised-that so long as the rate for. consols was J per cent..lower than other urrestments they could not expect much to ba taken up in that.depaTtinent. ',;■ The Land.Question. '';"-, ]"■]'-■■■'■ '■ •If members had waited'for details with reference to; the land-proposals, they would have been-better.able to discuss them. When Mr. Baliance came into power, there was in reality onjJ o?e freehold system. The late J onn M introduced- the 999 years' lease to prevent the freehold from being carried into operation. When that legislation: was introduced there were over 15 million acres of land the freehold of which had gone.. To-day the amount of land ■ under that heading totalled over 18-million acres.- The'total number of people.holdin" land under'lease in perpetuity on March 31 last was 8369, and the area held by them 1,143,000 acres. To that had to be added tho numbers under the lands for settle-' /ment system, 4095, holding 83-1,000 acres. Only 375 leases, in respect of 155,982 acres, had'been issued so far as -the renewable lease, was concerned. Under the proposed measure the whole of that land would go into the' national en(kfflruwnt and,remain under lease, for. all time.' He' wished to say something in repry; to those who.had.-.suggested that the Government was doing nothing to conserve the leasehold. The Government had: never suggested, and did notnow proposo,' that no man should, have an opportunity to take up land under the leasehold in future. He denied that the renewable lease system had been.a failure, as Mr.' Massey.had •suggested. Of ordinary Crown land under the lease-in-perpetuity only. one area of 100 acres had. been purchased between 1907 and March last. The number of properties which ; had been exchanged .from l.i.p. to renewable lease was 15, containing in all 5741 acres. The reason why holders had exchanged was that they'.had found that the value of their land had-fallen and they wished to get their land at a lower I i rental. .'" .' '■' .- -. -.'•.■;• ■

An "Alleged".Change of; Front.. ■'■{■>;'. ;V; He had. -been amazed-., to-' -hear so -much''"'taDr about' alleged, change of.: front dn . the part' of the Government. Since 1891 a majority of the Liberal ■party had been men who had favoured the ;optional tenure: all. through.- .What was the position to-day? • There were', in the House 51 freeholders as against 26 leaseholders. It was useless for critics to say there had been change of' front in view of the facts. Tbey. seemed to forget- that .the majority in favour of the freehold had Jpeon. maintained by the people atthe polt. Ht had to be remembered that in addition to -the nine million acres .of national endowment-there was- also : jreserved the optional system and land for settlement settlers were to haw option of freehold under certain'poriditions. Under :tho new proposals, the : country itself would secure .portion of tho increase in-value of a considerable area after/it had passed to those who acquired it. Those who ( know the position instead .of -asking : the Government to do what they know was impossible, should; realise, that it was submitting a system, which would • give in; future i'years a larger .revenue than was being obtained at jjresent.. One member had talked I about, the Government being responsible for the present position. Why, ; .that member had assisted no Government to remain steadfast to its policy. They had heard during the debate that the , Opposition had forced. the hand of the Government in regard to the question of land tenure.' • ■ - A voice: The country knows. "■ Sir Joseph (continuing) said that the Government, had had in its party more free-! holders than, .the total of the ranks of .the Opposition ever since '"Mr. Massey had .been leader, of. it. Naturally , those members had been trying to impress on their own party . the desirability of a change in policy in Regard, to land tenure. Mr. Massey had oven claimed that he was responsible for Mr. Lloyd-George's Budget <•■ Mr. Massey: It's not'correct. The l'rimo Minister said it had been stated in the House., It was not surprising, therefore, thai 1 Mr. Massey claimed to have forced the % Govornnjent'to'take up the position they had on tho land question. ' The Government and Settlers. • The present Administration had put 33,783 persons on 8,416,000 acres of land, an average of 211) acres per person, yet it was said that the Government had not assisted laud ment. Not one-third of 1 these men would have got on the land ( but for. the fact that side by side with a liberal land policy the Government had provided them> with the sinews of war at a cheap rate of interest,' and by so doing had compelled the usurer'and men prepared to take: their•",ten' per cent, and eight per -cent., and all, the procuration fees, from tho farmers to'. como ■ down to the level of what tho Government .was doing. The records showed that the investing companies outside the 'Advances to Settlers Department were increasing the money they were bringing into New Zealand. When the new Department was under way, he believed that these companies also would havo to drop tho rate of interest. His blood boiled when' it was stated that the Government was doing nothing -for the worker. Was it,, not a great thing that .£500,000 a :year was being provided for, obtaining workers' homes, which. could be occupied at a less rental'than would otherwise be paid in any town in New Zealand? The Prhm.-ige Duty., .With ' regard to the proposal that - everyone should pay SIH. for, primage duty, he was quite prepared in iaake that. a surcharge on the amount of revenue collected if it was causing any inconvenience. Ho claimed that ljd. per head was a very small amount' io pay for the establishment of a "proper system of defence. It would be the easiest tiling in -the world'to change the proposal! in' tho House, but he thought, it was not an unfair imposition-for its purpose. He believed that there would be an excess -of .£500,000 at the end of 1911, as the result of the present financial proposals, and it would {bo used to transfer funds from tho Consolidated Revenue to the Public Works Fund,-«o that' they should not havo to borrow to tie extent they had been doing from' the London money market to. carry out public works.. On Mr. Mass-sy's suggestion, -.progress:- was reported on'the first item of, the Estimates, and the Houm-iadjourned just after midnight. In all, •67 members voted in tho division on Mr. Russell's amendment in favour of tie. Government's land proposals being submitted to.the people by way of referendum before being discussed in Parliament. If the 21 Opposition members who voted had gone into the :other,, lobby, with the 'seventeen.-.lease-holders, the Government would have been in a minority' of nine. .The members who did not' vote ■; were:-': Messrs. 'Bollard, Brown Colvra,'. EU, Greenslade, Guinness (•who was inthe chair), Hogg, Kaihau, Lawry Pearoe,'E.H, Taylor, and Sir William 'Steward —thirteen in all. -There we're three pairs. For the amendment, Messrs. Ell, Colvin,' and Sir William,Steward)'.against, Messrs. Buchanan,. Brown, and Grconslodo, The others were unavoidably absent through illness, or from other causes.:" Mr. . Kaihau lias,, not yet mado his appearance;in, Parliament:.: during' prnumt