KEUGER METHODS.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 657, 6 November 1909, Page 6

KEUGER METHODS.

"Slandering tho Country " ' "Wo have been told during this session that this countrj has been slandered, and that its financial reputation his been blackened as much as possible." The Primo Minister Hear, hear. So it is Mr. Tisher Very uell Tho Prime Minister.Says'."Hear, hear/' -....•-...- ; , ? Sir' Joseph •:■ Ward;''K';is quite true. 'It-is absolutely -true.-': . ; : ; .. --' : :''::..'. i. '"Ana .yet'you-have -got-all' the money you >anted -at' Si' percent.! - 'Sir Joseph Ward::l 'did not. ..-, ''•:.' -\ / Mr 1 . Massey: How much more did'you 'want? 'Members:: What'did> you,pay for it?. Hon long hnve'yoiiVg'ot'it for? r :•'• ■'--'.: .'."''V : " Mr.' Fisher: The fact /of the ; matter is that there; is' nothing'so likely to ' instil "confidence in ,'the "minds of the people of' the ' country as ;a knowledge that'they.'have adjournal right in'the seat' of Government which' is capable an'd';,able" to render ;slraight.and jfearless. criticism..: v He.; did not . 'care two, straws who the directors or the shareholders were of either oho pa£er-or,the other.. He thought'that pos-

♦— ,- THE,BOYCOTT. WARD ADMINISTRATION AND "THE ; « DOMINION." l - ' HO\Y CRITICISE IS PENALISED. TOUTED DEBATE IN PARLIAMENT, j ' ,'*F(rtt 11 Raad,"l892 ) June 13.-The President (Kruger) said the reason why he did not subsidise tome papers by giving them ' advertisements was that J they did not t defend the Government. It was the irule everywhere to give advertisements to papers which supported the Government."—Extract from J. P. Fitipatrick's "Transvaal jrom' Within." , ' > The greater of yesterday's sitting of the ' House of representatives was occupied by a discussion on the Word Aamimstration's boycott of The Dominion in tho matter of Departmental adyertisments. (When th<> motion was moved that tho Houso go into Committee of Supply in connection With the Imprest BW, Air. E. A. .Wright (Wellington South) moved as an amendment. ' ' "That all the words after the word > '''that' he deleted, with a view to the insertion'of the following words: 'That in the opinion of this House, Government advertisements should be supplied to newspapers regardless of thoir political convictions, with a view only of securing the best return, to the taxpayers for the money so expended." For,.some Wright, (.hero hid appeared in TiiE Dominion's, paragraph lo tho effect that, despito tho fact that that paper had twice as largo a circulation as any i other morning paper in tie city or province, the' Government wa.s boycotting it so far aa advertisements were concerned, and that it had thoreforo to publish advertisements of pubhc interest at its, own cost, in order that ! its readers' might not be penalised " As one of the ( city members, he thought it his duty to have the matter ventilated. Personally, ho hold no brief for The Dominion. He had m, shares ui it, and he knew nothing of its shareholders or its proprtetary. As regards its political views or conyirtioas, they had nothing to do with the caso. He was moving the amendment simply on broad lines, to endoayour to point out tho danger that lay under 0 a. decision pf that kind on the part of the Government. It was Jiot so much a matter ot consequence as to whether the shareholders m u t j .■ DoMIN l < »' nere punished, or not, but what did matter was that the readers of that journal would not'have'an opportunity of seeing Government advertisements, but for the SS£ on ,*?f th A ,n FMmg them at its fhS- A iV to Thb P oj ««on's statement s nf »;iiJ? Uronlatlon was tluce M Swat as that of any other mowing nowspaper m tho province fex^f. Rlt<,od , ft at the proprietary of The Domjkioh were'quito willing 'to verify .that * v assertion and stand by it. Tne question arose I J i , »° The Dominion was I not entitled, to a, fair share 1 of Government 1 adyertMing-' Looking over its columns he . noticed tha it had published at its own cost i important tenders-relating to, inland mail Renders, and advertisements ' relating ito the WanganuuKiver service, vice-regal residence >\ J 1 "- Y¥l c4u L d th " e «ffM? of the syl: .' tern which the Government had adopted? It Beemed that because a N newspaper disagreed with the Government in power for the time being it was to receive no Government, advertising. , What Is Eeoncmy? , Of might be said that tho Government mi- studying economy, he would be the last to encourage the Government to be extravagant. As a matter of pure business— ias a business proposition—he thougVlt that if I?. P i. ape , r had twloa as laT Se a circulation ae ~ that of any other morning paper in. the pro va "f " had a right to consideration in' th< 1 matter of Government advertising, no mattei what its political views The Manawatu Rail way Company, jthe directots of which wck shrewd men, used to advertise its timetables u ' The DosrrmoN.Mtlf a complete answer to th< position which had been taken i up by th( Government,was wanted, it wan to be fount in that fact.' When alterations m connectioi t with th« time4able for 6how.s oi races, etc", wore made, those whe took The Dominion were surely entitWd tc i Inow. The positron taken up by the Govern ment was absolutely untenable and unfair, ant 1 mnless some sufficient reason could be given bj the Prime' Minister he should bo justified in ' conerndaK that The Dominion was being boy jotted. It was regrettable that owing to the iaot tha.",' a newspaper differed in its viewi < from the Government of the day, no Govern ment advertisements iwero appearing, and ap I parently jjwould not appear m its columns '* i Encouraging a Reptile Press, I | What could nossibly the effect on th< i '.press as a whole throughout the Dominion l such a system were allowed to continue' II would be very improper if newspapers were t< i ' get'tqe advertiserj.-nts 1 , not because they had ( , circulation worthy of notice, but simply bo tense they said *'yce' 'to everything that th< faoTOrnmant said and did, and defended it oi I >yery occasion. The only logical conclusion, i *hai system wore to continue, waa that hen would arise in 2*ew Zealand a reptilo pressi press ,that would simply bow and scrapo ti i Jny GoiOTnment in power 60 long as it wa Bd up with advertisements The Prime Ministe l tad done many things that were noble—man' , things which he believed members on botl fides approved, and it wis to be hoped that h fcas not now going to destroy the good he hai i done By boycotting a paper because it was hos hie to him. , Ho hoped that some explanatioi Would be forthcoming to account for the ex 1 i traordinary position which now existed | f * MB. FISHgR'S VIEWS. Mr, P. M. B Fisher (Wellington Central A 'f? d {l? taou S a t it was rather unfortunat < that this condition of affairs should exist u i &o Dominion. '?We ha\e existing at the pre rtmt hmo in the State," he said, "a system o Espionage in which salaried officials, paid b , the State, are engaged m watching the new* < japers, not only to see what they say, bu also to see what advertisements are luserte therein W*starw i; Hiat' there are men wh We engaged for the purpose of watching thes Mwspipers and onthng them and extiactin , their Opinions, and this attitude was taken b tbs Gel "eminent now w vory apt to lead one t bebeveMthat thw system could bo carried to very vinous end indeed" What was tho oj; |ection\of the Prime Alinister to advertisin b a pariar with the circulation of Tee Domo jIQN? It was quite true that ■-The T»ohinio disagreed. withithe^PnmaiMinister in politic) J There was another Ipapor pubbshed in We v jtmgton that with the Primo Minn iter ln.pohfios also It was a paper in whic the Government ought not to advertise, bi did advertise. „Ho could not understand ho it was— Advertisements In "Truth." ! J? 0 £ 0D G Towlds What paper's that? > \ Mr. Tisher. Tho paper known as "Truth " J Mr risher They put their advertisomen ior tourists ui "Truth" If you want to fin ! the excursions fares to any pait of the com try you turnjup "Truth" and you find thee I I Mi. I'owlds* Don't you find them in Ti I 3)oiiinion? ° I Mr ' Tisher- Yes, inserted free of cost >> | do yon know that they a: tot publiflhedjjin "Truth" free of cost? IMr Tosher |<Well, they don't say so 'Wi tl[C Minister aoiv publiclv deny thut ho pa tor odvertisaments m "Truth P I Mr. Powlds I don't know anything about (Mr TishoT Then yon find yourself m yo mual. position. (Laughter.) - , ' Ij,thjnk yoa ,are wrong, u iual. i i 'Mr Fisher: Xet me ask the Primo Minisi if he will pub Holy deny that tho State is pa Ing for advertiaements in "Truth"' IThe Pnmo Mimstw I'm not going to an3w ydur quesboo while you'ro speaking. I ah ' deal with the whole matter " J .\lr Fisher,* contintung, said the public a thb country were confronted with ,this positu Tl e Government had it within ,its power sjxmd jflßOOOior a year in. don't deny that tboGovemmenthtie a p feet nghifto ■&&&&>. and oontrol that adv x tiEtng, but when it |»mes to specifio dis.cni Dal ion against a pawi, whwh must be ackno led?ed to be a JeauinJ journal and a respectal palter, it is about hme tbia Houso put its fi ioim, and said TS'-e aro going to prot Rgßinst public monoy being used for the p pose of degra&Rg the newspdpor press of ti {Otiatur/ '

'advertisements.; .i,lf. the ..new' paper:had got the .whole of the advertisements that amount would have been'-'very much bigger. Snpposing half '■a dozen .new Opposition journals were established here, would-they all expect all the Government's '^advertisements?-■ All/the .Government could do- was to be :fair- to both, sides. ;' MR. MASSEYSCENTS I A RED HERRING. •Mr.: Massey declared that Sir Joseph had failed to reply' to' the'oharge that the Government hail .Deen:>guilty -of the improper expenditure -of public money, and. had used the public funds forparty purposes. In another country/what had been condemned would bo, referred-to.'by ; an,, ugly.; name.', A's usual, instead of'attempting to answer the icharge, Sir ;Joseph had:triedito.draw a red herring across the scent.; He'had told nwmbors the amounts which had been paid ,to, Opposition'papers, but in no instance;,had- he stated whether the amounts were : inclusive of the sums ppent on advertising!.; in 'the. weeklies . connectea ' therewith. He (the speaker) was not responsible for. the amendment. He tad never been ap-

proaphed.■ either?direotlyrt.ors indirectly by the, 1 proprietary, of.;The/Dominion with ..reference. 11 to.tae,matter..'.'ilr.'.'Wright'.wa9:periectly right v in jiip'th©: matter,. because he 'believed •< --, 'some of the ;6harenolders of-.the- paper, in ques-. : .tion. resided' in; his .electorate.'; .If., more money ■' had 'been: expended 'bn ; Government advertising • r in Wellington'-than .in;-any; othei .city)tand: c The, Dominion did noVget.iits;fair ;shaVe, ; it j 'simply.-prbvedyth'atvlihe'.ilherjpapers-were'ge <_ ting more than'their,:fair;6hare. :/'■','■' ■'■r\\ ;. : /-'' ■ Other;' BoycottsW:;;.'"'.':■:;///;-.•'.•■;:;■:- / ;' ; -P.'V ■■■■'■'. t ,■ When 'Sir/.Joseph; said' if 'had. mot been' the • ■ custom of Ito'ibpycott*; the .1 Opposition...press;,.! he/,was'■ eyidentiy: under, 'the; c i impre^onltfiftt> / iaember9l;h^' j 'T^';')»d'' ! ,mffln- : ] bries.'.AHe'remeSbered.the\time,Vten'i.or : '.iiwelve d •'« years .agb./'/yrhen-;the'vJiPost,'-'', then/an: ,'OppoEJV. j tion; i large' cirob^fion;.'was-penalised/iii-'.the. matter i of., advertisements: just; after/it.. : had;/criticised, i the' Government more severely-ithan. usual;/ -J '/■Sir; , '.< '. ..Mr. > Massey:iJ:'.have''jnst'toU. you.'-'.'..; ■'■■-.'.■' i ;; Sir ■Joseph :V When? : / ',: 3> / >•■ '.'■' ■■' ■.'.'. v '.-,v '•"■ ■■/■:'■•'' i ■j'Mr/'Massey:''\yhen'.;l4r. r ',Gallon' /was'/editor. 1 '-:l{esmning,.'MrV.Massey ,sdid -that,the.;?Mana-; ' •watu 'Evening","Sti'udard," '- and "Baingitikei, '' Advocate" were boycotted only recently. ■• ■'"< •'. Sir Joseph:' Wha- do "you mean?,' Mr.: Massey:/Had; Government advertise-; • monts .'withdrawn; from' them 'simply because they-'were hostile to/the: Government. •'■.':••";>.' //Mr... Massey instanced':the caso of a. ;Waikato i paper which had;been .treated,in the saine way.; ( ;J.t ;.was, he fact', that those' , ;.papers were punished, simply- because '.•.'■they, , were opposed; to the/Government' Very, few: ) people understood the' position in : connection' i with., the Pastomastera/,: Department.'. "It' ! was' - part of, tne:''brianea':.bf.;thß/offidala:'co'nneetodi j .with it to ■; read'.the various-newspapers 'for- . the: speeches delivered;by. vof ''tH'eboveTnment, ; and pastev„them in 'scrap-bookV , for'the, information of' Ministers."•' ."■ '"'■>;;! ■ -,/ Sir: Joseph:'" That,is not correct: '.'.•'■■'.■ - V ./ i Mt. Massey 'replied' that '/if the Government ■ would,refer the matter.to a.c'ommittee ; and askhim'to call evidence..he .would prove what'he - had alleged right up to. the hut , He-knew, ; that .m his own case instructions: had been, given to record his speeches at the.general eleo./' tion for the.benefitofiSir Josephand the other Ministers, he believed. , He did not object tea' record: of ..his ' speeches .being kept, but what/ he aid'object 'to'; was that that .should bo;dohV ■ • at the, 'expense /of' the, country .for. party purposes. >*With.:regard to,SiriJoseph's statement: as to the amount, that-had been'paid to The DoinNioN/.fpr advertising,'he was m-a.position, to .'contradict, ; it. He : had 'just been' informed that.,during".the/Kpast twelve '.'month's''/Thb Dominion had.'received. Jess .than way of Government advertisements, and that those advertisements' Telated/tb small tendering jobs' From March"ls laS-jTHsD'oiriNiQN had nbt're-; .ceived a single.copper.''.. t .'.: '■■.'.. ■■■- - •/, ■' ■•■ ..Sir Joseph: What is/ your, authority ?.V\ ■•■/;., r-Mr. Massey:. My, authority, comes from 'The-. Dojonion itself..'.,'.'/'■.'.''•//:/,'. :.".'. ;; Sir' Joseph: It/is; just .as unreliable as: some' other, things/that appear'in; that:' journal..#■■!■- ..; Mr. Massey:.'Were jou 'not.'.referring;.to' the. nine months.'ending.Septembar,3o?';..'' ■■; ... • Sir Joseph :.-No; ; tip 'to March' 31. ;, - :. /'-■ Mr- Massey, ;whp .said he had ;been under, a misapprehension, /stated, that.'during the .'last twelve months/. The Dominion ' had received , less than ; iE2o,.; as'against frbm:ie6oo:to ,£7OO by the_,other ~.v.... v '.-.; ~.;•.„.-../. >.. Sir Joseph:. We have not'authorised 1 any ad- , vertising for -The'; Dominion■ during the past' twelve.-months,;', .If: it -were.a fact, that The: • Dominion, had/as';large a: circulation'. - as" was state'd-r-ahd:'the statement ought to be easily, ■ tested——■•.•■•/:'■:•.:;,■.-,:,■>■,/■ -~ -v.,;/"/,- ".:.'. ' Sir V Joseph: ,What do • yoa call; circulation ? Paid circulation?,. >', .■■'.--. /, .'■ >.:.,.,. ■ Mr. lirefer to .the proper circnla- ' .tibn.'V.--/..'.'■■-.'>'•-.-■;'■ ■■)-.;,"-;. ■/: ;."."■■■ '• ---;V. "' - /.Sir Joseph: ;We;faww the position.: ■■'; Mr. Massey said he: would venture to; assert ; that if The ;DpMrsioi! had beeni a' Government; journal/it wgnld not have been'neglected in l the way -of advertisements.' : Not/a, Question of Economy. . . ; ; ;'■ Hon. ,E. M.'Kenzie:'lt-is : 'oiny .'■■■'.' : ,'/' ; w/ ■';/: >:■:',': -// ; ,-,--. ■•;::-..'.•'■• . : Mr. Maffie7yreplied' ; tHat : it ; iva3.not"b question , of econom/i.}, Why/ didn't •'-•the.'-''.Government" , economise.■ 6 , • | .was being'punished jbecanse".it'crifi<!ised.-the Gbvemnientandr.tliat: '-■ i without^b^rlg^4busive.';'.;Whist .had .'happened; J . ; in-c6DDectipn:: ; ,^th : .'THEr'D6inNioN .was -mean'. arid' contemptible-rmore, it 'was - dishonest';' 'it- ', was a, positi,ye;':disgrace -.because it'proved'that' -the./ Government 'was'.-using -iio' ';: money of, the'people.for-its'own selfish -ends:' : (Hear,''hear:)i>: ; "v■",::■:■;;,:,;'.. ; :-..';'•:' :'.,./■.'-' :,:, ' The Prime-'Miiiister. said 'the figures which' / .Mr.;'Massey'.'-.b'ad':got:frpm'Titß DoinNiON-.wore" .. not/correct ■ Since .March;3,diSereat./ Depart-. !.' .ments had ri-vm-Tra DoHrrooN .adyertisements, [■ .rrto.a ,small ,-tttal^.amount.:,i.t],was..true'./,;.Tte',' [.' .Government yVould'nbtb'e.warranted, in spend-.' . :iiig- \£4oo to/JEsoo>a;year mpre;in','adverfising/ ,: 'for.'..The• DosnNipK..'.- .■■■: ' \_ / ','./;.-. ■; !: ■ Mr. Mos'iey'said'that;,he had made, just a' . slight,. mistake.: • It was •. siiico May that. The 'i DoshMON, had. ; 'not'receiy«l'.any .Government' / He/gave details',of 'the; advertise- ' ments (less worth) which.hadj ; been', given The 'the last 'twelve ' months, or, •to-bbmo're' : exjict l > further backthan .' that -'.. "•':'"?"s■ :::;;svv -:V: ; f'■''■. '■/;, •-.-.- ' l Mr. Fisher.lin-'a personal explanation, showed •'•' a copy of '.'Truth, \containing a railway, adI vertisement,.'..',-'''j''.::'.:-. 1 .•,■.-.-'.■:,'■,'-''.: ~-.' .--.:; ~ >, '.: The-'Prime' : llinister/said:; he'would not'be--5 surprised; to find .out .'that the advertisement 5 had been at' the - newspaper's ex- - pense.''■"'.'"->;' :':•/;',/' : '' '.':',."' :Jr-.'" '.-. V.-."- : .■.,'■• Mr. Boss .(Pahisiua) asked whether members 8 came,to the House as,, advocates for newspapers i or for the purposo of asking the Government to ? be* careful with','the expenditnro of ; public: money; He thought that',the ; Government- spent t too much on. advertising, • arid if a;paper;like 0 The Dominion happened '.to '.'arise to .exjiress 6 the views of certain people, that was no reason g why it should, receive Government advertisey monts. ; ' - : i - ; - ; '."'•"-'..v "-. - : v v •'-..'. : ' r Mr. Greonslnde(Waikato)-regretted that time ■j on."a. trifling.mattor." / : MR.!'^MALCOLMhOrJ'^TIBUsf";:MONEYSV . n ,; Mr. Malcolm ;„":;(Clutha) said;/the pross/ada mittedly.-was ! tbeimost : influential, 'vehicle;-for ~ fonning- opinions'in/this-country,''.ahd/ib;was, o most desirablei that',no. aH^pts;< ; tb/irilluenco' n the press should ;be.,porinittod': in-, the House. ■ :■■ The position'.withiregard : toTHn:DoMiNlOH;Tvas : , : oven- worse ?>< thai ...h'e had ..sujojibsed// The; ; p. Doiiinion was allowdd to'have the. largest, cirri ciila tion : of - the' two. morning papers in this city, ii memberj'/'Hpw.'''do' 'you- tnbw:?)-and,"the;

sibly/the; directors;bf two:papefs.^wpnld:,riiake .n _aH t«ry:, interesting 'comparisblii/;■;.' ■;/''■■:' ; p , i : 3?.he 'Prim.e'Minist'er'iyou give, them.., : I haVe t< rib;objection v",/'//A-:' ;■■!■• '/-■■•,'.' '•':■■•.'■:'■'■'-■'■ ii !--llh-tKslier.:-'.I- : 'doh?t.-Know-.!'thim/...;Y.i'.-':'./''-.Y..-- -g, ■:The'./Prime'';Minister:".Well,'':l have.got'.them; ,ti -here.iC;:/-'/;/;f :://;//i^Vi'■':'.■::■/«/./,*..; •..'.■;•,•.-•. ij. ; :',, ,h ///— >//" : .'/ ; ; :;/';';/ « '~.Mr.'sKsher!;:'lWnat,':l;: pbiect;,tb ; :^; tempt—and,'i(i:' ; mnsb;'appear;surely; to. a'ny./.im/ jj partial/ person.', a. '"attempt— to ■. cbmpeL. that,: paper |to.;,borid/'its! : knees,to. tbe.'Gpvr q • ernnjent.j./Ypu;: n». l .:pra,otically-,Vs'Bjdiig : ! 1 , fo ; The . : DpMiNibN r.newspapers.:;i;'So:"longi as., you stand ou.tside/zthe.jUne'./.of .-iGpveniment. newspapers,-. c . we are going ..tp.iresist giving, you' Government, V adyertisements,' and 'if you- like to: give 'in'arid; >' join'the''rii'agio'.circle;',w6'U.,giye,.you'.tne'ie3oo' ° a-y^T..or,whatever':itimay.be.'."••':This. : was-'..not ? a, party :or ■ a local; question'. V It was f a/matteri that-.concerned .the '.inviolability;"iof,- " the., press .length .-andjbreadth- °. of ;th«i,colony;^-.'';,-.>/ '■< •./7- ■/<:■;; i^/.i::,'./:',,;'- : ;•■ i'j:/. -r 4t;-;; :: /■ JThe'-Piime'Ministervkiid.'hVwished;,te'.quote : spmeZ'figuresr.ini'aiisweii to " tlje.'.wild.and'/reck- .'. less;';statetnerits.''. that'.had: been I' made'... to ..the .-J effect 'that the* Government was- degrading the j press-of'/the;';country. /It,was 'quite.;evident . that; Mr;•'Fisher. -andr'.-Mr. .Wright,' did: 'not understand,; the; position- as regards-.- Govern- n .inent advertising. More money -had beeni t spent: in i: Wellington--'in':newspaper'.iadver'tifr: ing during the past; nirie.'mbritns than in any, t othbr/cityarivNewv/Zealandi://'; './. /iv-..' . : ;-.:-. -.T 'Mr-oiMassoy-i./'That-ronly/inakes '-the Ip'osi-" : ? vtion'-Wofsell/;'/:::,; ;;'■'■":,.*''' ~'.'■''.'■;■,.:,-.'■„' ■■•:■■:■;'■■.' : ' -.■.•'. Tv: \ :„, Sir Joseph (resuriring) .said.'that one of'thoke t . papers was The .Dominion..'■:..:■':- r '/'.,/,•/■;■- ,' -, .ri'A'ybicftrl'Hdw/niuoli 1 did 'it receive?''" i: v t Sir: Joseph continued;that, tho Government, i had /certain /position''; and ■'■ it'/did. ( ', not,intend', tpTalter.it,;. : despiteiarijr./iniprbper- ( . abuse-which.m'ight v be; leyelled'. against • ft:.. As, j avm'attor'of-fact'the system under •which'the; Gorernnieut:; advertisements S*ere, >' given . out' '. was perfectiy;.f air. ~/!■/ ■-:.'',' ;•'-''-'■ , i/Mr.Makey:' No.; What about The ] ■inNION? •<■■■!.'; -../V;".: -..',/; : :.-. .;; .: ; j ; Sir, Joseph- went :on.;to;say.;that.during the ( ; ;nino;inpriths;.ended;March 31 last, the totals in ;, respect of•Go.verninent: advertising in;the ■'can- \ ;.. tres; were; as : follow :-r-Auokland ■ Star " (Gov- j ornment) J ieiir'lssV' 5d.; Auckland,; "Herald"' ~\ (Opposition) ilSß'Ss^Gd.fiChristchur'cli:"Press'.' ' (Opposition),'X436':los. l ßd.'r'''Lyttelten Times'' .; (Government), : i ( I Savßniment), ! .':ißlsV.:9s.;.9d:;; '"QtagO/'"Daily. \ Times;.';.(Opposition),-i!485 19s. 3d.;/There were ] in 'all three .daily, papers.in^Wellington.;, There' \ was. the : Z" New Zealand '.Tiin'es''': which vwas \\ a .: Governnient journal,■ j'and,', the - "..Post": : .:;, j , -Members: :.Oh!':,-V'.:; : -j- r!'.".,''V' ; .' :'■-'-';,- r -: :'■-'■ j .Mr. KsheT:/Tou .do/ticHe us;/(Laughter.); • . i.Sir.;: Joseph; went -on 'tb/say. .that ( 'it;;was, true j tb at; the' "Post" 'did not' ; ' cbndemii - the, whole. , . of; the .'policy, of. ;the],Goveriiinent.'-..T0 Bay', 1 that; '. : ,the,''Po3^^:was;,nbt , an■Oppositiori-jpurnal was ' •io;insnlt,.the .intelligence of: the controllers of ; that.";jburnal.:,'The-.-''Ppst;':dmirig\the:period" '•, irir.questiou'received'advertisemente'worth '^477 '•: 55.-lOd;,' arid the ;: "New"Zealand .Times'' w£isß ; 17s;/ sd. : |Duriig'the; same, period 3BEDoimnoN- - received > Vil63'::iss./?:;,/:vi-.vr'' ;''':■'/'/'■/'/"' ' ; /Mr.; : 'Fisher;(;YpuV,have i left another'Welling-' ,'; ;tenv]paper''out.'--;':^/;;.'. *'X'i":'y-U\''■ "■'■■ ; -;,V ; ';;/V,' V ,'.'-.V ; i' /' ; A!voice:•,Which> one?.'.-.■.',./' J..'.'./.;,'. '~-: ; :.V'•'■ -v.-. .-■ . ;.Mr.,Pisto':^^Trnth,'*:/,'./;'/:',.:;'!-/■./ .v^V' ; - Ciaims;pf Wellington .Papers.:-; '~ : \:,['}';■ i / Sir.. Joseph (resuming) said .it could '-'not.- be 1. doubted-.-that -/there..was/'.in :Wellington-one,: •. papef'which had ; been':Tegarded'as:a,.supporter i. of-.the; Liberal for-many /.years,;,whilst' •'. L there; was qlso; another ipaper;which had .been ~, years- ,as , opposed; ;to the. , '-, Liberal:party./.-Then'/tbore'was,;another ; .paper,, ~ w.Moh"had; been'.storted, here, for .reaspris' ; bpst', ' j- 'known -'tb. !its '.promoters^.,'He':\^r6nld<'hot': deny ; , ! that'they, had a'perfect right..to establish.an-; .: other',, paper.,- - It -;had'',tb- ; be :reriiembered,'],'how-' y ,ever,;-that-it-was ?; started:withithe ':avpwod'.iri-; . p -terition'i'.of ■;' - riot <;,; only.' aniiKibiting '.the pother.' bringing •dpwn.;,the : .-; -Gpyernnient.' [ I stated' by" responsible; people/attaclieii to:'it-'-"; J- ':'A'voice: : ;No; ribV:i'./'';///''^,-■,//'■ -;',.: ; j -.' Sjr Joseph said that; abcbtdiiig.to-tho theory ■ 3 : that had' bean'-proppunded by' MT.\'Pisher' arid - t Mr;:'Wright: 1 ./'every i '.:piper}.''■ that, ,-was started' . }■ should.get'aU;Government advertisements:. The, j- Govonime'rit was-riot-going ;to.subscribe tothat; ; x : theofyjlWith'.regard'to an.'advertisement'.which; . it-was'Btated;-appeardd.;in' "Truth"'he wished 7 to say. that/he 'didjnot.b.elieye...that,it ;was;publ lished by the' Government.: "Truth" received • j' during,- only. i . 13s.■ :9d.V in the^-ivay..'of/advertiseriients.■ :,The : t ; 'advertisemeht'.ito:T,'rtnich;'refprerico;.' l ;had''ibeen |; ;made was , p^d'-.f«;- : at^ffie-:nvte ; '6l' > 2s.iper,iinch, :below. ..whati'thd- daily' papers '.charged. Iri.ret- 'gard - to -a. Tourist Departaeritl/iadyertiseihent. '„■ lappeariig'iin l .''Truth,-'; Jie>was',informed -.that >': 'theipaper':was\riofc.being-.paid-for ,it.'- .It.would.U~- • be. - grossly.Surfairvif',tho.'.Government; ; dTpppcd• :; '.advertising"in.'.ejthe'r' brie ef;,!the'.;.older .estab-. .'.■; lished / that both sides of tiolitics were represented by' ,': 'them,"'.inTorder that-.the'new/paper; should .get •J. -the advertiseriients.---//.:' '■ /-;;;-, ■••-;' i-:' ■-'/;-, , '■'■ /■/ ■■'. . a ; : ;'lt'would be found:that;{he-^Opposition'press -:' had always had its fair share of advertiseriients.' A - Mr. Fisher, had' alleged that espionage existed .. in connection with tho Advortising.Dopartment. . He.deriie'd that that was the case./ The Depart n '' ment was: established :.to. superviso Governriieni, " advertising, and 'already, as a .result ' of 'its , operations, thousands of pounds had been i; saved.; The department authorised the appear. :j .once of/bveiy. Government advertisement ex- ¥■■■■ cept certain ones relating to railway time-tables and lands administration; Officials connected ■ • ,with the/Department had /also to' keep certain j£'. rbebrds.-.' :■■//-■,•-':/.-.■'''';.■-,'v '"'/--'. °," 'Proceeding,'! Sir Joseph said the Government f" thought that advertisements should bo given^'to - only two dailies in.each centre,.;and that the 8 Government should riot be asked to do anything '•': more. :Someono had suggested that the ."New H'. Zoalarid Times" slobbered : the Government, • or •"*; something ,of the kind./ He had .never, asked ?'.' the "Times'.' to write an article about anything. ?°- j Mr. Massey: .-It : would..not/bo necessary.- : 'Bi! s 'Continuing,-/ Sir: Joseph' i'iverred'. that Thb Vi; DbanNioN had been established to carry on on !£.- the''knooking r out" jirinciplb./,:That' wasfa }}■: matter! .of betw.een/theip'apers/thiim!?T: selves. /It would:'not/;bo. fair-/to , take f.hb; >'« advertisements from the -'/Post" /and give/them «?t .tb;Tirs/ Dominion.- /!;/.-'-;/' : !.'''"'//:; '■ r wtj //Mr., Massey: We'are riot 'srigg'estirig/that.':'r:' 'T'/ ■:■:'-Sir."Joseph said:-,thatfin;,.the:.nine;months,;to-i'»; hawspapers in 'had"been'paid',J!lo99 ''!&. ' : i!d.' for

very fact that thePriine Minister, in his reply, had attempted to make : it appear that the "Evening Post" was an Opposition newspaper was an- evidence of the weakness of • his case. If it was necessary to:cut any paper out it should be the "Mew Zealand Times.'' The moneys for' Government advertisements. were: trust moneys, and no/Government, should, be allowed, to,use them in its own interests.. Tltey. should* be, expended purely, on business lines, and. ■politics should not; be considered! When a; : mattertouched ,the press of the country it assumed a very 6erious. oharacter.' ,He cared nothing about the success or non-success .of THE DoimnOK, but that t/paper.with its circulation should: be overlooked as it was in.regard to Government advertisements was 'most regrettablo and unfair. From. - a purely . business point of-view, he did not know but what he would.'withdvaw all the advertisements from the "New; Zealand-Times," simply, on the ground that it/had not the circulation of The DOMINION. But .it was not necessary . to cut .out one paper. -The money spent on.; adyertising might be.divided among the three papers..

; Mr.. Wright: -I; don't' think bo.' ' My", brother-in-law. w. not n- shareholder in the company! he. is amply an employee of the company, and it makes-no difference -to him whether the paper has Government advertising in it or not. MR. HEROD. Mr. 6.' Eaurenson (Lyttclton) described the debate as a 'storm "in; 'a- teacup. ■ If ho was Prime Minister; he. would not give the Opposition papers half so many advertisements'. Opposition members; also, got too-many roads and bridges. -"A few thousands to the men who had started. The DommoN was nothing. They were men 'rolling in money, worth hundreds of thousands of-pounds. ... ;.';, POLITICS AND BREWERS,: - ; Malcolm ■ (Clntha),. as a temperance enthusiast, denied that the Opposition was in any way under the dominatiori of the brewers. As mdicahng their connection .with the Government he stated that 50,000 ordinary, share's were recently issued by. the "New Zealand' Times" . Company, and the number of shares allotted,

A ; PANORAMIC VIEW OF THE NORTH AGRICULTURAL AND P^

There were- 6everal'.'ways.'bfvdealing'.witti the i matter, aid • the '.'Government had', chosin the t -very ;,.worst v way.".;.:. • v ;,•"■ !'■'. ■■■ -.- '■: ,: -■>' ' !. c ;THE : ;'AMENDM ; Mr. Sine. (Stratford) ;,drew attention to the : rule debarring any member, from •'voting on a question in .which he was financially interested. : Many : of-tie 'members of:" tho." Ministry had . 'shares in-the "New Zealand Times,'''and it ' required:, consideration whether'! they should , express, their'views, upon 1 ; a- 'matter; in which : they had a .large financial:interest.:' : , ! : 'Mr. Guthrie (Oroua); 'replying to 'the Prime ! Minister,:'said,'that.',the. fiangitikei "Adyo-: ] cate," . an•'■; Opposition paper,' did not receive ' part'of'.the-election; advertising'.'at 1 the by- 1 'election,-and in'reply,; to ,'a.communication no ! was.-.told'; that- those., advertisements: .never j .would\be-given toyit>vHe;had aiso .'asked; that ' ascertain"• maU.:-:advertiseraerit 'Bhould■■'be in- ! that •the advertisement had. been. :insested .in sum- . '.cient-papers 'in-.the^ppinion^of^tKß.'lSepa'rK merit.'.- Yet 'there,-were .'distncte'vwrdcri'';were : '. reached)only'by;the "idvocate.": ( ':He':believed i that. The DoMiOTpN(.rmd/.py!'.far; the 'largest "' circulation of. any'mdrnirig paper' in' /the'pro-! ; vince, and-on business-grounds it should re- ■ ceive its share.of Government advertisements. : . The amendment was lost on a division by 3fi,t0.18. -....;': .. :,-',"'! : ;!;';':;''■'.!: :: SPiEAKB■:j^GAIN, , ■ " ; Mr. Wright OVeUihgtonJ.South);; in:;movinK the .adjournment of the Jlouse.'.said.lie would reply 'to remarks .made' with'r'egardito.Govern-' ment advertising.. He -wished to'Jlii&w : 'wtietheV ' the/.ainounts •received by'-! the:,two 1 'evening '.were'!included in the': PnmerMinister's- figures, 'for;:,'6]th.ei;wise the ; . figures i.-weie. valueless.- '' to : give'The'Dominion advortis6m'eiits,':at-an earlier period, why. was it not-right'how?.. "What; made tho position more extraordinary was that the share, list of the ."New .Zealand Times": showed-that the' Government and its friends-were virtually the-proprietors of that paper. He would place oil-record'some-of the leading, sliarehblders in the "Times.''>: The list of shareholders - .was then read, and- it .included the. following names, among .others :— Shareholders- of'"Times." ". .'-.. • ;.--;. - • ■•-...: •■,,■. ■ o • •:•':'■ .--■''.:-■-."■•■ V-:; ;•&$.-• "I* :•■■'.- ■;!:"• -:V-- '•■"" •«£•' -' S'g ; '.':..::!';•.' •'/.'.'■'.• ■ -. *#:.:': ' $£ ..'-.! J.';:;/;.-" ;^V;;-:'.'.:;2''. v -..!-o.^;-..'.;. pj.°. - Hamilton-Gilmer::.„, •• .■..';-,. ■ ■.■■' 327." . •■'. 1,718 Elizabeth". Gilmer. .10- . ■. ; v. : Knox::Gilmer i^i^i_v' : 10 .' Florence.'.:B.' Gilmer.' ,„ .'.,',.,; : '16■". Dorothea ■Gilmer,- ..'..JL-..,Y.y..»- - • < 10-.V.. ■'■■ '• •' . Sam 1 : H/: Gilmer'''.~~.™Z__'': 10' ■■-•"..-'.- ; Louisa J. S! Morice: -.i^^^Li.'• ■ -50 ; 122 Mrs;; P. Dyer ..:.......:...„.._„ ".. 50 "-■' • -100 Executors T. H.- E. Seddon .... 150 '.'- 2,507 Mrs>.J.'Al'Bean-' \ ■"■•::. -■'-'-"•.:-' - '•'■■ (Christchurch) "- ; 10 ''" : ■ ,'-11 Elizabeth : Mary : Seddon! ~_^-r 10 .22 MrS. !L. J. Seddon 75' 1,143 Thomas E. J. Seddon, '101 •■•'.- 21 Edi'J.S., Seddon :.^™™i^..::-'>2o .'•'•!. 45 AUan::Ma'guire :' : -81 '• 229 ■ T. • G.. Macarthy ~.-..™_...... ■• 583 ■ •" -1,702 Felix ■ Campbell ' (Greymouth) '■ 280 800 J. M.>B; Coates ....:...;.„...... 1',616 2,107 Dr:: W.■ E. Collins .....:......■...-: 772' 1;969 Criterion "Hotel Co., Ltd. ■ •' -.' ' ■ ;.- . ' _ (Napior) ■ :...„.. ~..:....;.'. ■ ; 500 AVhite fawan Brewery (Napier) 500 : Neal and Close; Ltd.,(Napier) •" .'2,000 I'rK- Bro'P,'.(Napier) 1,000 , W. Isaac Nathan ;.:-■: ;...',;' ,500 . H.'l3eauchamp ....._ •■', ■-,'■. -500 J.' . C. Maddison (Christchurch). • '■■•■ 1000 C.: Louisson (Christchurch)... . 11000 J. J.-Kinsey .(ChTistchurch)...: .'I,OOO : J. Mills (Dnnedin) „„.... 4 ■■■: -. 2 000 ■ ■': "Toti're "there yourself,: are you not?'^ : a i . member'inquired ef Mr;."Wright.':durine'tho readihg_of, this list. ' ' ■;--.■.-■■•■ . b ■ '■Mr. -Wright-explained tliat he wis' formerly .. a: emaU ;shareholder,: but he, sold his'.shares - two years-ago, .when'he "saw the'shares'.goine .- down. •:-..-' ■ :'- •■ -..-■'- - ~.i;Mr.—Poole-'(Auckland "West):" Ohi leave - a .[ sinking;ship'! : . ' ' •■ "■■':,.'.'" - : . .•'.-■•■ " ; ; -The; Cabinet and-the^"Times.": |, ,j :'lvha.ye.:'alEO,the-Bharo list, of --.the Govern- [! mentitself/'fiaidj_Mr. Wright.;; Here: it is- : '' X :.:.•'■.■:,:..,. ~.. ! Ordinary: Preference! v'j -■.•'':, .;■':' •-"-,'.! 'Shares.' ' ;,-. ! ; ;;;E.iM;Nab _...____:."..! '806-.' '! '2005' "■ !•■ J . J.'Gi',Kiidlay-_„x_..„„„ 20W.,, .7002 '. -, .J..,Carroll ....._.-...„„;_,..,— . 500 p; '~Av,T."Ngata i: A... ~ ' 320 ' ■'-. ; .E,-, M'Kenzie,'.u._^.„.„™' —,. 500 ■ '. .". G.'-Powlds'..;..'..;...____„. —- '■: 500 '■ : ! j:' .: !: ,; D v ;Buddo: — ....... : 500' >'. ;.■ ; The';nam'es- of Messrs.VMiliar.Jaiid'-T. Mac- -,' tenzies!were'.not in -the list, Wright, !' aM;they'were.wiee.'rnen:to tebut'.of.it.lt ap- -,' peareii.aa.';if, l .because the.'•'Ne'w'Zealand Times" i- was ..largely;' owned .:by,the Governm'ent, and . its 5 'friends,; .therefore, .regardless of -the pai>er's t circulation,-".it must have the Government* ad- - >yer.tisin|. No doubt the-answer would be that 1 the was ,an .old-established paper, 3 but- was;that. >.:sufficient'., answer; to the fact 1 that the-yormger:paper had'a'much larger circulation? The 'Dominion: has published .time 1 after time"a;'statement'. that! it was willing to " allow-an accountant or' accountants to,examine ~ its books, and see:what:the:oirculation was, and J' , verify, or. otherwiseiits;,statement' '.that' the cir- } culation t was'.-twice"-as' large: as' that of any • other mbrriing! paper in.-tne' Wellington pro- ' '.yince.; - ,-..'',.,'■'.- ■'-~- .....,,-.". •: ';■,'-:.; ;,., ". : . : A member: .What .'about its shareholders? °. Mr.. Wright:: I have 'not got- their list ef. 0 shareholders'. I am mot one of- them. "' Sir Joseph.Ward: But I have got it. J -; Mr. .Wnght went on to say the boycott " policy was a dangerous one to the Government, ®; because a boycott 'always ■■ made martyrs, and J 1 when an "individual or paper .'was made a ;" martyr.it began; to ;grow and to becomo stronger ■ and stronger. The -best-way. to ; kill The Dominion, if the' Prime' Minister .wanted to kill it,.would be to .givs.it all the. Gosernment ;..-. adyortisomonts he .could, and possibly that ~ would Tbmove the -feeling. of martyrdom. Mr.I- Wright then- quoted .from- J. P,\ Mtzpatrick's' r .The Traa-jvaarfrbm !Within!!'.'t6' show that the ,s. late-Prosident.Kruger;.speaking :in!-.the Eaad, a. ]iad eaid; that .the Government should give !. Government.- advertisements '.'only! \td- those who i S supported;;it ;.:;'; ! ;-::.jy !!?:!■':- ■~.-'"'^" b- ;•■-:;;--'!'■•■.■".-" - : \ : "■"<.'!■.'.>' '■[:. "••'■■■ : "<:'-''r:i , ."''■':'• j.' .Mr.; Personal..;,::;- !:. ; . (,': ..; v That-'would be bribing :e. joux.,"ii;o!ther-iiiTla.wi .would;- it not ho? ,-.i»- ■■'-- c -: :■' -.-. - .-;■'..-

ayable in cash, was 26,370 of £1 each.., Among. : lie.'shareholders.were:— . .., , ■ e Moss Davis (AucklandV, brewer .'....':..'4,000 t K-Gibbons (Wanganui), brewer;.;.;..:«;6so'.' ' Criterion Hotel Company, Ltd. (Na- ."'■•■: t 'pier) ■ . .„.:.-.;.....„...■ 500 ' . ■White Swan Brewery (Napier) U.».:.'; ' 500 [ J. V.; Brown (Napier),bvewer. «.......-1,000 -i C. Louisson (Christchurch), brewer • 1,000 . D. J. Barry-(Gisborne), brewer...:...... ■' 250 -j 'here were a number, of other names which he < lelieved represented brewers, -.but those!he had ? [noted showed the very' large' interest which ' irewers, quite:;legitimately,-hadiinthe!"New I lealand Times."., Remembering that on the list rere also the names of a great many of the mem- 1 lers of the Ministrji they, could.see that.tho nfluence of brewers; was likely, to say the ! east,of it, to be more pronounced.in the affairs i if the Government-party than:of. the. Opposi- ' ion/-';- ;-.: ■,:■■. "■:.'■ ~-.'•'. 1 !;,; y u EJEfrriNG.SIR JOSEPH." ;;r ' Mr.' ] !LOT'renson"Eaid:;he:.'did'. not :sp.eak. of. '. Momia'atioji.''. As indicating that the brewers 1 rere.;'?thr6wing:;ih their (•weight'';vHth: the' OpV losition, :,Tia' quoted. the'.! heading of a '■ leading, ; ; irticle "of "the organ'.' of the trade." The: head- '; ng was "The; Necessity of Ejecting Sir; Joseph'- ■ iVard from' Power." : ..!.', '''~ '.■• '■' ' ■Members: What is the paper? '! '""'.''■. . , Mr. Laurensonl.The "Tribune," of July 19, :'; .900.'!;. .-.'.• .■-:,:;-::-!;,:';,!',-;;' ; - ; ; ■■■; Mr:.Massey: Where's!that published? I never leard. of it'..!, '.;.'* '.- ~:' , • .-,'!'',''■;:,• :\' .":'.'".' - Mr.;Laurenson.:. It'is:,published in Duriedirir' '. .'Other' members,:; Never heard of it. ; :' ' ,: (Mr.-; ■.MalcSlm"-' (Clutlia) ! .: JiJ des6Hb > ed"' ffia"-! ; 'Trilinne" as " an 1 obscuro "paper which none )f us 6eom to know of.'.' "Referring to tho ' lames of,!brew.er3.:.:.in.. conjunction .with the iiamos of Ministers ■ on tho : ,"'Times!'-'share ist, he suggested that • ".where. tho money of the brewers' is, there you will find their hearts The! Prime Minister, said Mr. Mossey had jsked Mr. Wright to.Tead the list of shareholders and' Mr. Massey retorted that that.was , " not true." .-Mr. Massey- withdrew his,, phrase and ,the Prime. Minister'-unreservedly,; withdrew; his statement;:.,..;. ..; ', ;.' ~ ... Mr. James .Allen said he'copld corroborate this as he. : had heard.Mr; Massey:say. at the timo that,he regTetted. that the-list had been read.- . .-- .'. ' -.■ ! ...''-', ; ..'.■ .-■ -.-'. : -. ', : At this,stage the hour of haif-post five arrived, and the Speaker cut the discussion short by announcing that he would-leave the chair for: thiVdinner .".',' '.':.■' , The ffrime.'Minister, 6peaking.in the evening, said he ,was exceedingly eorry-.tiiat Mr.' Wright , had gone into "the. shate: lists. 'When it!came to bandying. l about riaihes : offindividuals' connected ivith-in'terests',of'that : sort outside the House-they ,a'.very; wide '.door; leadmg.to--possibilities;'that oven'.the. critics anxious to make capital against' the Government did not contemplate! He did hot'know" the business of either of the two Wellington morn- • ing papers, but it was generally ;statod in'connectibn with!,the! paper that .was. claimed-!to Have the, largest, circulation; that ii great deal of it was unpaid,- oiroulation. • Such a circulation was scarcely an argument for the' Government. to transfer-advertising to that'paper. He did not object to, fair criticism like that of the "Ot'ago Daily Times," but that paper g'ava honest reports of both 'sides.*'- -He - could 'not say .the same of The ' DoifenoN.. He did not blame, the [staff,; who were,;, so, far. as:he' knew, honoui'able journalists, ,but there were,-strong: influences' of political prejudice .behind,;,and most unfair things-, were done,. The Prime Minister then/mentioned the Opposition'papers of the.."'other " cities, -describing';!■;each -.'of them as.'fair.m its .methods.:-As. an instance of what '.The DomNioif .did,! a' man from: New' Zealand went to Sydney!:during the.time when money little tight-here, and: arranged-for,.a.:loa'n,'.bf.-,"<ei5,000 'at/41 per ':cent,,-;but' next day, The Dominion arrived, arid 'the other, party, affair,'reading,it, refused the.loan'. :He oame; back - and held forth, pretty freely: ab6ut it,,, and..the : faot. was -. well .known. ."■'•' The." Times "Share List; ;',-!'. -,-!:! ',v! ■!' -He was'-soiTy-that.'-a' "suggestion had ■' been made by. the -member .for Wellington South when' he' read-the -names of 'some" of' the "Times,'';!to - the effect that that'; paper; had •passed'over to a certain controlling; influence. ■ The editor- and -his. staff were not influenced in any snch-way. There- was no politician': on' the directorate, so far-as : he knew. Mr. Wright ; had also referred to the depreciation of the value of; the shares of the" New' Zoaland Times": some time' ago. That was no 'concern of. the House. He had also said that tho Government was interested in the paper. That was;iiot so, and if eomo Ministers'had shares in it; thAt was purely in their private capacity; An endeavour was made by the; Opposition to purchase that, paper, and he for one, though; lie'had hot before been associated with it, joined with others to prevent'a paper that had been the mouthpiece of the Liberal party.;being- handed; over tb'the Opposition. In regard to; the,case of the evening paper,in _ Wellington, I.which- :was depiived of Government "advertising, fbr= a; twelvemonth some 15 years ago, that was because it had applied to' 1 thelate Prime Minister and Sir John MTKenzie an expression which they were' bound to resent.; The shareholders in the ''New Zealand Times" included not only men who wero on the side of "the trade," but prohibitionists and men who wore in favour of temperance reform. He -was not going to follow! of the member who had! read names of shareholders' in tho "New Zealand, Times.";. He had in 'his hand a list of shareholders in Tee -DosnKioK, but ho was not going to read it. He did not think that was playing the gome. . Mr. Massey, speaking on the second reading of the Bill, said no suggestion had been made to take advertising from the "Post" and give it to The Dominion. 'He'did not Know what the Prime Minister would have said if ho had been subjected—as he (Mr. Massey) had beec during the last year or .two—to the" low, vulgar, and scurrilous.abuse of the "Now Zealand ■Times."-'." 1 '-'■- -~,'', MR. POOLE HAS A LIST. ! ■■■■■' Mr. C. H. Poolo (Auckland -West) that it would not be;'prudent' to inoreasetho outlay'' on. Government .-advertising. . The liquor trafllc-!of New- Zealand had' tried to capture the press,- and had. a large .interest in the "New Zealand Times." •!••. The Dominion was oallcd into, existence 'to' wreck ; developing reforms-and .perpetuate, land., monopoly'.- - He had in his\ha'ad a "list- of the! shareholders of The Domtniok.",. .The ; : provisidnnl; ■' directors wore:—Hon. C; J.' Johnston, P: H. D. Bell;' J. : G. ,W. .Aitken, John Duthie, A. L. Herd»*"^ s « " ;ivilliaill '''Kusaejl,' and H, G.'WU.

Hams. ..Ho would read;the names;,of; some of thoj.shareholders.: Mr. Poole .then read aUist' of; shareholders, with' the .values; of their ■ properties.. He mentioned tho following;names:— Messrs: S. Williams,. J. D. Ormond.J. G.J(/hnson, ; W.' C. Buchanan, Leslie H, MTlardy, Duncan Cameron, E. J. Riddiford, J. N. Williams, Sir,, George Clifford; and Sir; William Kussell.' '-.'Two;, great' influences were operating upon' the/press-of ithis country by means of capital—the.influenco'.of.the liquor traffic, and that of land; and neither was in .tho'; best; interests <of ■ the -country.' . '... ' , THE/DOMINION'S' , ;CIRCULATION. After, ■ further discussion,: mainly upon tho establishment' of country, journals opposed to 1 the Government,' ". ■..■■';:>;'■ . Mr. Wright 1 said if' The Dominion's circulation.was not genuine he.wouldhot stand upfor it. "I: say; now," ho added, "that the circulation of The Dosiiniosj •-. is not abogus ono, that every copy that:comes out of.which it speaks is a bona fide; copy, and, is paid for.'" Tho Prime Minister: How do you know?

Mr. Wright: The; paper, challenges, the Govirnment -..or anyone else to appoint an actuary ihd examine,its books'-andcredit • circulation. The Prim« ; Minister: Why. should we dtHt? " •Mr. Wright said he wanted to' see', the mat-..pro-red,- and . there was no other' way to raoye it.' He''wanted .to ;know,'some, specific, tefinite . occasion of unfair, reporting by Thi Domkioit, or when the paper had made some statement on''finance that'had; injured thf loimtry'a credit. The , Dominion's iinancia jriticism had boon proved ' by .the event. Then ras no doubt about it now;.' He knew whet the ,Government had -.bought/, an, Opposition paper and' turned ,it into a .Government; paper.' Mr; Massey :;.It' bought .an; Opposition paper within the last fortnight" Mr. .Wright'said he referred to the "New.' Zealand Times," which, before, the Liberal Ad-' - ministration cams into' power, was' : a.' straight-'-out Tory orcsi. . "The Times." for Nothing.' ■' Mr.' Bakk; (Palmierston: ■ North)' said he was a' ''subscriber .. to.' Tra.!.Dominion;- and 'had, alwavs had to pay for it. He could', not' .'say-.'Jthe samei . fpr. the'"Times." iHo ; -' travelled, frequently, ./on -thp.- .Manawatu train; "and every time .they : were'in the neighbourhood of Otaki orPaekakariki; there was a rush''through'the . train, by/ newspaper. inon. "A *New Zealand Times' is thrown-in my'lap," said, Mr.' Buick, "and 'I have; never been asked to • pay, for..' itWell, I don't know whether that is what'is 'called V b^us'- circulation. **>' say. THEjiDtttamoN, has. . novfei* ' ; tliTOwn ■ in' hiy. l.ipj' though' I would prefer-it-of'the t\fo."i<T}hoi'GovCmta6nt should amMsePft tfo'flireD : nWdlingtS)n<"Papefs., . : "DOMINION" LIST EXPLAINED. , ~ Mrl: Herries'. !(Tanrahga) . .said ■ he- would ac- ; cept ' the< Prime' 1 Minister's denial; that "he did not', supply vMr.' 'The 1 -. Doionion phare : list... It^was. as > to; where .Mr. Poole gofc hisinformation as to the valuations of the ; properties held by' some of ' the shareholders. He either got'it from an old return or else from a return: yhicli should have' been.given to' eveW member of the House. Sir Joseph: He aid not get the-figures from the Departnlcnt." '• ' ' '' ■ Mr. lierries went on.to'say that in that case the figures were quite 'out of date, and' might be quite;wrong. Valuations, .it had to bo re'membered. 'had risen and within the past, few years. • , Mr., Massey: Some of, the -properties have since beet cut:up. ' ■ l - Mr. Poole, by way of. explanation, Baid that he had obtained his figures ro the value of the lands of certain Dominion shareholders from a return dated October 3, 1906.'• . /5 1 - ; The. Bill was"then read a second time on-the' voices.. . . - . ■ . - - . MR. MASSEY GIVES THE OTHER SIDE. Mr. Massey referred to the matter of tho sale of the Pahiataa "Herald," to which Mr. Boss had called attention.. He- said, that he 'bad.esplained: the whole ' matter of the . sale to the . electors of Pahiatua.- When' hb'had 'done that he thought that he was dono .with the'matter. He regretted that the matter x ha'd again crop-;, ped' tip. Hw hands were 'clean) and .Ills actions throughout' straightforward' and honest ' As a' matter of faxrt, no man had treated*him so shabbily as Mr.' Hawkins. He proceeded to say that ', he believed ■ Government supporters had ' lately purchased more papers' than Opposition supporters. Only lately a. small influential paper, was purchased- by Government supportors._ ■ '..' > .'. -. Sir.Joseph: Oh! 1 . Mr. Massey: Do you want to know which one? -. Hon. R-r MTTonzie: Let us hear. . Mr.-" Massoy: .Well,: itwas'at .Whangarei. Do. you want to know who purchased it? Hon. It. M'Kenzie:-Go on. v. Mr. Massey: It was purchased by two prominent, Government supporters l in .Wellington; and. one of them is a, State official.- Sir Joseph' knows about it. : «Sir Joseph: I don't. Mr..Massey:iYou know about-the: transaction. ; . ■ 1 : ' Sir Joseph:' ! l don't,know.'the'delaile."Replying to an, interjection. by- Mr. Eeed, Mr; , Massoy asked:;if-he would .like/,to..know.*: the names of tho purchasers.■ • ■ /-r ■ Mr. Heed.,'did not reply.- • v - -' Mr.'. Massey'went on to something; ■ might- bo. 6.aid: about, the.'; money;.- Possibly Parliament would, know a. little more .about ■whoso money it. was before-the-session-came to an end. ' : ■ Sir. Joseph: ''Tou ; don't suggest' that it was Government money?,, .... ..y. .' Mr._Massey: T don't, suggest' anything/ Sir 'Joseph:: .Because it; was-not. ■' • Mr. Massoy described the:.list of."properties held by Dominion 'shareholders as antiquated and. grossly'> misleading. . .Hardly an, estate which had been mentioned had not since been subdivided. In fact, tho return was not worth :the paper it-was printed ,'upon, : Mr.Poolp read a further, list of large estates which: had been subdivided between members of families.;. Mr. Massey said ho had read the..list years 'befcre. ■ .. : 1 . • The Prime Minister;.replying.to-^Mr. Massey, said-that'no member of the' Government lfad ever had an interest in a Whangarei paper, or an indirect interest in'supporting anybody ever had an interest in a Whangarei paper, Personally, he had never had'v an interest, direct or indirect, in; who had ever been connected with a Whangarei paper at any , time, and' had no interest at the present time, and no member of this Government had any interest in a Whangarei paper at the presont timo. No public' money -had : ever been put into a paper by the GovoriMncnt. . • Mr. Masiey: I did not'suggest'public money. The Prime Minister:; Or Government money of any kind. '' Tho discussion ended at 11.40- p.m., when the Bill passed.