HOSPITAL AND CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS BILL.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 654, 3 November 1909, Page 9

HOSPITAL AND CHARITABLE INSTITUTIONS BILL.

', '" DISCUSSION IN COMMITTEE. 'The Hospital and ' Charitable Institutions Bill was considered in committee. Mr. LUKE (Wellington Subnrbs) suggested that thp financial year for hosbitats should bo Biade to close three months after the Govern> ment finanoial yeai. Otherwise it took some time td got the rating papers out and rates collooted, and \ tho boards would bo working On an oveWrAft for the first *hreo months. ' Tho md. teFowlds thought that such an Alteration would only result in complications. Mr.. Luke £Sid he would bo eataned if tho Minister would undertake that contributions fxom.tlie Government ttould be paid within 30 davs t>t tho close ot the financial year. ' Mr, Fowlds Thero is no chance of that. jMr. Luke then moved that th6,wordi "3UI 'March,"- in reference to the financial y«ar, be struck out, and the words "30th June" sub. etitutod. 'Sit William Steward (Waitaki) supported the eniendriiont. iUt. BOLLARD thought that ah addition of three months rwould not bo sufficient. . 'iMr. , ALLEN (Bruce) recognised a difficulty, and (suggested that, it might be advisable to continue tho ratings of the previous jear far another six pionths. ' The 'amendment wns withdrawn on tho un« derstflriding that it would he irioved at a sub. stage. , 'Mr. (T. E. TAYLOR (Christohurch t North) fiSKed,nnt was possible to make a provision to ensure that the Maori lands \.ould contribute their full share towards tho cost of hospitals and charitable aid -. ' Mi, ,Fo.«rlt|,e.6aid that the question of rating 'Nabve , lands would come up/ he belioved.nn' another Bill. , , Boards. 1 Mr!\ALLEN (Bruce) thought a definite Scheme with reference to the tonstitntion of boards should be included in tho Bill. Too much (jcmer jwai, m his opinion, intended to be glvptt ia this regard to the Governor by Order-in-Council. - j ' Mr. S'EALLWOiITHY (Kaipoia) moved an amendment with the object of having tho num- ' ber of repiosenfatives of each contributory distnol fixed according to the relative populai tions of tho lesptctivc contributory districts. MrjHtNIN (Iniercargill) favoured the establiflhment of the boards by election with the Parliamentary roll. No sound refion could 'bo given n?ainst his proposal. The peopUs had the right to elect membors of Par--1 Jiament, who had the power to voto, in regard'to matters in\ohing hundreds of thou«an«s, but wero to be debarred from taking pait irt the election of membors of the proposed beards. He was looking forward to tho introduction of reforms which would give 6otiifl to tho Radical sentiment ol tho country, Mr. ANDERSON (Mataura) said he could not support tho amendtaent unless tho wholo ' ot the wai borne bj the Dxchequer Mr, T, C TAYLOR (Chribtchurch North) contended that jt would bo perfectly safo to make .the franchise as broad as the PaTliamcn ,tarj basis. Many ,of those who were only , occilpiord of lands had the rharitablo aid rate pafibod 'On to them Mr.-Buchanan What about tho State ten antif Mr. Taylor They may bu ,liko the Maoris vnother n.c-iber (to Mr Taj lor) Would you egrco ,to itho expenses ot the boartla being borno by thft*Exchequer'' Mr.S'i'aylor Yes illear, hears) Sir j AVM, , STEWARD (Waitaki) objected to rebrcs"utation on the boaids being fixed on a population basis. The proposal to amend , the claim wps rnected on the \oices. Mr,-WITI'Y (Iliccarton) then moved that the maximum nuilber of members of a boary should bo reduced from 20 to 12 Mf .ALLEN (liruce) pointed out that if tho amendment weio adopted it wai possible large contributor} authorities in various districts would not secure representatioh at all. Mr. Witty pontributory districts could combine , Mr, Allen But some of the proposed districts ,include se\eial counties. ' Another inolnber , Jlino has 11 counties. Tlie MINISTDB said the numbor of memters was entirely optional. I amendment was lost by 33 votes to 23 The MINISTER, ln'reply to Mr Buchanan end iho proposed to add a ckuso to tho Bill to the, effect that all Orders-m-Council and regulations issued during the year should be laid on-tho tablo of the Uou»e within a reasonable period Who Should Elect the Members? Mo,NEWMAN (Manawatu) moved that the boardi should bo elected by tho contnbutory local ivutnoutifs instead of by this electors in their; dutnct. Mr. DAVIIY (Chnstchnrch East) favoured tho adoption of the Parliamentarj franchise in connection with the board 'elections. Under the Bill-numbers of tenants paying e\en over £200 lent per vcar would not havo a voice in tile selection of tho memßers of the ' board, whilst otheis who paid Only JCIO ' per. 'jear would be on tho roll The MTN7STCI smd Lβ would have boon , glad to hive been able to have adopted tho principle of Paihamentory franchise The in- . creased wt of elections on the Farlmmentaiy basis rtould be r/ittat that it should not be ((greed fo. '0 Mr tIERDM\N (Wellington North) declared that it had been found that if the franohifo ji connection with the election of puoh boards vert extended to "Tom, Dick, and Harry," Iho 'esii't would tho end bad management of , 'ho boards If one studied tho leport of tho Ilnelish Poor Lnw Commission ono would find 'hut , the commissioners had como to the conclui'Qii, that much of the management and ginft Which had characterised tho ndmmistinllon of nuch institutions had been duo to tho fact ''that tho franchise hal been extended, and -that men'who h"nd no senso of responsibility had bfun elected to ths boards Ho did not sav thnt tho same b.id eftccts woufd ncuuo in New Zealand but,the, tiend would be talvrtrds mismanagement. (lmercaißill) remaikcd that Mr Herdmali hnd been onij too willing , to ac(icpt tho \otn of "Tom, D'ck, and ITnfrj" in liii elcototats at the KCnoial election It seemed ole.ir that if tho Opposition got into powc.r thej would tiy to do awa} tho pnuoip'o of "on° raw ono vote." i Mr. HEKDMIiN pointed out that .In the t i

•course 6(: his remarks lie had not roforred to the•.franchise' ,in"connection' with; tho' Pnrliamohtjry elections...Mi-. Hnnnn hnd been guilty of -thVuidst mnlicious : 'clnptrap. that hud over: falloii from the lips of a member of tho'JHouse.

vMri 1 ;: BUCHANAN (Walvarnpn) said... that under, .the existing, system in :connection with tho Election ,of education: boards,satisfactory rosulJßihadoocrued."' :. '..'.■■ ' ! ■'■ i- • Mh-' MASSEY (Franklin) held that in those districts vfhore the County Act-was not in. operation,,the : present sj-stem of election had not; been . satisfactory. : The mombera of the boards should bq elected ■by tho individual members of the. local-bodies in each charitable aid district. : . : , . ;. : -~ Mr.BUICK (I'alraerstbn North) thought the extension; of tho Parliamentary franchise to tho board elections would not bo -worth the ad:ditional oxpenso. .:He vrns'.ot opinion that the present -...system.' had. been satisfactory. , :

Which Is the 'Liberal? , "'.;/: - .',.'. Mr. BAITME: (Auckland East) said -at'-tiho oiponse :of bsiftg called undemocratic he >would say he , did not beliovo in the continued dis--hirbance pf -the : public mind by a series of elections. ; Ho could not support the extension of the, Parliamentary franchise until thore Was a comprehensive system tinder which all such elootions. would : 'be held' on the same 'ii basis ~lt'.-'was."abt, - necessary' in; '.order-,to be .domo. crntio:.to bolievo that every qaoitioh 'should be referred to the people: direct. Thoro wns .no system-more likely to produco-the best results., thnn ' the system of electoral colleges. prodosal in' the Bill must take owiiy from the funds which .would otherwise .'be used for charitable aid purposes. He proposed to support, the amendment.'. •'• '■■ ■'.■..-•■■;:■: . :Mr. HOGG (Mastferton) hold that the manage, ment of the boards would be' materially improved iif 'the people elected,the members. Ho differed from the last speaker on that question and , nearly every question 1 of .vital'importance, :because ■ Mr. : Baiime's principles were utterly undemocratic. (Laughter.)..; To his knowledge, the local bodies had not abused their privileges under'the present-system. .Thero should bo a general roll for -that and other elections. , ' -. Mr..PHASEß;(Wakatipu) said he was:'not 'dissatisfied, with : the" present' system. • Special provision -should.:be made to meet the case of ;districta in' which the -Counties Act was not ! n M O r e LAUBENS6N (Lytteiton) considered that Liberalism consisted: in giving the. people the right ''to-"-expressVtheir' opinions., : . What .the people asked,fof they should geti ■ ..'. ' /A voice; They : have:nojt asked for this altera. tio'n'., .(Laughtef.) - : , '.'•''.~:J : ;■': ,;.'.:"' ■-.

Mr'.; Laurehson went on to.say that he was surprised at; Mr. Baumo's remarks. .The system of. electoral colleges had not "been ii .'success. : . !;;A voico: That settles the matter.-: .'/- ■■" ' ; .

.: Mr: ;.WITT.'y (Riccarton) .'held that all elec.; tions should take : p!aco'oh the pno day. ' Ho would like to: seo the. districts ; more ' clearly :defined.>:: v ' ; :" ■'■■ {•■''[■ ■;. '.y>'- - -•■ '■■'.:'•,-',''.- ''.'■.'•.

Mrv Baunie Replies to His Critics. ■ -■•' ' ~; Mr!. BAUSIE (Auckland East) expressed tho opinion that the compliment which Mr.'Hogg hadlpaid hiin ,was the niost handsome.that he' hnd paid him was the most handsome that he had ever receivodi (Laughter.) He would like to rc ; mind MiyHogg: that ■ tho ; leaders of the' Liberal party had , ,di6sobifited 1 themselves from.', someof tho Liberalism ;which was' expressed; by v that niomber; _In what:did his (the:speaker's) want of Libbrnlisjri consist? Was it in giving expressfiion to his ■ candid opinion P .'•'.•Mγ; . Laurenton' had: said witli fth.air,'"We .oiißht;; to study ecoflbmics j and history." Did : -Mr. Laufenson think that;ho irdia'tho sole repository of khpw; : lodge pii'those subjects? .Surely Mr. Laiirensori could>.not; blame anyone for. coming to'a con. elusion'different; from that.'which ; ' ho held. (Laughter.) Thero was, no particular Liberalism 1 in ;shoutittg "Trust:; the ; people" because members : ivere thero by'-,the trust of tho,people;' If larger vParliamentary.: districts coilld W provided, -qnd committees -appointed from the members .to'.take;over ,tho control of Depart.. would do away with the chaos that at prosont existed. ,vlt was 1 all nonsense: for a Liberal,to , sfty,:that : becarise he .was a-'.-.lease. holddrair.Lioerals'jhould'ba leaseholders, ;and so on.:;':.; -Ovv i ''V.;:-':..:..;■. '■"■■"■/.■■, ■■•■■■•' ■■

Mr.,.Ti; 15.'TAYLOR v (Christchurch/ North) favoured',Va-; Parliamentary franchise; in. con; nection with all such - elections. . ; With''■:■ '■ its present .broad.'system , in vregard.Ho'Parliampntary:,'.e]cotion.i;:, New wa*'- freer from corruption than almost any .other .country, , in Christendom. ■'■•: In.: • America) 'where :,: the; electoral /college; system .was in : vogue, x they scarcely eVer'mado. ft mistake in the selection of -. but In all" minor';, matters Americawas as corrupt as a country .could be.If tho Government wanted : ; to :\ niakoV, for' a dignified,.. sDlf-respect3ngvdemocrfeyi. ; .'it. r -. ! fiho«l() ! , place in regard to --election!?. <-;:■• -v-' ; <-••:-.*'.-'.■:>-^- M ." Upb'ri -ft'''- div^Sff^f^enkEftnFvfSFreiecied ! by 43:.vbtc5;'t«:,18.'::".:,., i- 7 :/";;' : ;.';'; : ; ':-;v?.

PnrllaAantafy.; For.and-Against. ,-:.'-

■jMr.;'l)AyEY;.;.(Christch'iiroh'East)' moved an amendment': toV strike "out ■ the : word, "of";: after "electors"' and add. "whose: names appear on .the Parliamentary electoral roll." .lie claimed thnt his amendment: was chiefly in, tho,.inter. csts.of .'the: oonritryi settlers,; as adyantago.: *as commonly .taken -of the qualification tho -'■- ■ r: [':.:■ ■~ .'.■ ::^' i :i-:, :/.:,;/ /Mr. i M^LAEEN:(WeUihfftoii':East)'supported .the amendment -in ' the' , .-Belief: .that., it- would ■provide -for .okaner ■.'local. /government;.-'.and avoid many Of: tho. pitfalls besetting: the .present mixed isysteih of-municipal ■ franchise. '"..Under that system: there, were .houses that ienrolled. ! ten .times; the" , number, of; people :whoinhabited them. He;opposed'-the statementemade byMr! Herdniah-asundemooratio. : ■' : :> :•' >'- ■: ';

-/Mr; PISHEB (Wellington Central) spoke-in ■favoiir of tho amendment.: He: stated that, it oostithe best part of .£SOO-to prepare, tha: roll: for a municipal election in Wellington.' If the •Parliamentary/.irisn«Mß(i''rnled,;- and,.the .card system of the ,El«ctoral Department could, be] utilised, that: .money j, could. be..6aved,. and' at, a sniall cost' an .infinitely more'.effectiinl. and. 'more-up-to-date ■ roll .could be "iprovided.' ■ :• ; M'r.-AiyPBRSON- (Mfitaura) was in favour, of the olauso-'as. it-,3iood,.'leaving the election of, the charitable hid boards:to the electors.inime-. diatcly/"concerned, whowould.bei taxed,to proVide a'very.ln'ree share 'of the cost;-'I '~•: z "... ■■(•.'Mr.:- : WEIGHT:/(Welliugton. ; South)!; complimented Mr. JJaume,:on the;.attitude he: nad .assumed. ■■-,'•::' ',- •';• .■'".■■ .•.-•'■*.." Iγ '•'.;■:■' .i."'. _: Mr. MASSEY thought -that ~the amendment; ,was unlikely -to,- be agreed to, and. that: there would, be:just as.good liberals voting,;,againet it , as :for". it.' He" believed -that"fhcro ;ivas no•thing ih: its - favour • from-'-' the, point' of view .either of principle or cxpedienpy.- .It. was.prob-. able -that tho ratepayers and 'biirgesees ;of - the ■country/contributed., tivo-thirds, or ; jjerhaps three-quarters, of the total cost of aid. ■■■i'li r >,'there'\':was' to. be 'special;' taxation' there:':should ..be. ..special represeniation, and he oould: suggest no better. system of representation" than.'.that,propo£ed"'.in the .Bill,'or. that which- was; n(>w ,in. operation. . ;If the boards wero to be'elSoted' on the franchise,, the.'whole' cost' of charitable, 'aid. should be put on the .Consolidated Fund. He would' be' willing to- go that far, but in; that. oasß\he"d'id not thinlc they. would get. bettsr meh-to. adniiiustar"! hospitals , : and chari'tablo .'aid 'than'we're" forthcqiiiiiw now, or than v would: IkJ forthcoming if. tho clause'' remained as it, stood.--With' regard to,,the qualification, Mr.■'■ifaise'y;-pointed .out that"any. ratepayer; in. the country .Who contributed .to ; the fund• of any local body, was :erititled ; to a- vote/.which he held : :vras' ; quite.as liberal as anything obtaining in the towns. - .'■•■'.-'.■■ .. ; v. , -Air., BUCHANAN"(Wairarapa) thought that if .the- , amendment was carrieu, the fepreseiiia'- , tion'of public, opinion in the country districts would be'reduced; to; a , .farce- In tho first placed it ■ would ..be, .difficult, in : the .scattered districts', to get people on.'the.special,roll, and : only a ; 'small percentage, could.bo got to the ■polL -' -■'-'■■-"■ ' '■-'■'■-■'■ '-'■■■■■' ■■■'■'■ ••■■ :; ■. ' : ■ ...vMr. ALLEN (Bruce) thought that the cost of tho elections on. the : Parliamentary- franchise would be.over .If the, Parliamentary frauchise were,'adopted the :money for charitabie aid and hospitals must be otherwise subscribed, and if: it:was to come from the Consolidated ;Fund, thore would be, iiiore extravagance ' than , .'nbwi' :■■ The men who:','would I be eleoted under a- Parliamentary franchise .Would not always bethe men best suited, to carry out ..Mr. DAVEY (Christchurch:' East) argued that if ihe : Wellington-municipal roll cost less: than , i£soo,': the cost -would be no niore'\with the Parliamentary franchise, so" that the Minis.te's esliinate of-the cost, under that toto was.much exaggerated. '-~■'■'.: .'.,■" .'-:::: j The . ameridraent was lost on a' division by 38 votes'to: 28. . . > : : . -.'L : '■' ' \ Sir WILLIAM STEWARD moved the inser r tionof a new subclauso:as follows :— "The, wife or husband ofovery elector- shall be deemed to bo nn elector and be entitled to havo a vote." This -would, make the position the same in countries as in boroughs. ■ ■.'■■: .:•..-.. VMr.' TOWLDS objected that this ciause had all the disabilities'of the clause just negativedi The franchise' phould bo dealt with in the Local Government Bill. The subclausc was rejected by 40 votes to 20. Medical Men on Boards. Sir WILLIAM STEWARD urged the deletion of tho clause providing that the Liovenior may appoint , -honorary , medical practitioners us additional members of boards. Mr, WITTY (Hiccartou) endorsed the sugBe Mr° n, T. E. TAYLOR (Christchurch North) said that it would be much easier to live amicably'with one's mother-in-law than to nit on one of these boards with an honorary medical practitioner. The practitioner woul.l not be in his proper sphere. He would be as much out of placo an a bull in a china shop, (

•; Mr. GUTHRIE (Oroua) supported the"clause; . Mr. HOGG CMasterton) , opposed the clause. Mr. FOWLDS proposed an addition to , make the appointment contingent on' tho request of the board, '■-.... . : .':'..■'■■'.'

.-:;,■ It wns pointed out that only the four cities woro ! affected by the clause, which referred to boards-, whore- thero. are more vthan 'five honorary practitioners. -. - - . , Mr.'T. £. TAYLOB urged that an honorary practitioner on the board would have the whiphand of the resident surgeon. ; Mr. M'LAREN thought thore was no demand by tho public for this special form of representation. Ho foresaw trouble and friction if the clause came into effect. : After further discussion tho proposed addition was;-rejected by 32 votes to 30. '■: - s Upon a division the clause as a whole was deloted by 40 votes to 21. ' . Appointment pf District Nurses. •■•'. : Mr. NEWMAN (Manawahi) moved that the following bo V sub-clause to Section , 34. lα:— "That a board may also from time to time appoint such district nurses as it thinks fit for the purpose of ai'tending sick persons elsewhere than in an institution." • The MINISTER said he was in sympathj with the proposal, but he thought tho matter was sufficiently dealt .with in another section. ■Mr. -MASSEY hoped tho proposed sub-clauso would be. inserted. • Ho knew of several cases [where lives would have been saved if nurses had boon available to go into the ba.ckblocks. The new sub-clause was unanimously adopted., • .'■■'•' Sir. WILLIAM STEWARD, (Waitaki) moved to the.offe'ct that no appointment of any medical officer (other than an honorary medical officer) or. of a master, manager' or matron ,sha|l be mado until the expiration of twenty-, oho days after, the Minister should : have been notified of the intontion to make the.appointment. The clause -as it originally stood pro-, yided that no appointment should be made : until tho Minister, has'given his written approval of the proposed appointment. The amendment was agreed to on the voices, ■At this stage progress was reported, and the House, adjourned at 12.10 a.m. ■ "'■■■ ■