THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 650, 29 October 1909, Page 5

THE HOUSE.

FIRST READINGS. . The House met at 2.30'p.m. v ■• -. The, Mutual.. Accident Insurance Bill • (Mr. Dive) and Mutual Fire Insurance Bill (Mr. Divo) -wore read, a first time ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS. From S-o'clock till 5 o'clock the House was engaged-in the discussion of,answers to questions. The afternoon adjournment was-taken at 5 o clock. ; FLOUR DUTY ABOLITION BILL. . Mr. HOGg (Mastorton), in moving the second reading of the Bill, said it had been before the House and. tho- dm of public opinion' for a number of ..years. Ho had no. reason. to complain in connection with, the-discussion that had t taken : place in regard to it. When "the

tariff was last beforo'tho House ho would have been pleased to see, a large duty placed : oa motor-cars and'the duty .on flour remitted-!,-Last.year New; Zealand imported 14,528 -tons of t flour,,bearing.; duty ;totolling, J3U,soß.'..JVithin the same, period 619 motor cars were imported, but. the material portions of them were admitted: free, although their value was .£165,610. iTho ■ value of .the flour-produced, last -year in New Zealand was «£1,055,65 C, and the duty which was paid- in. an indirect way was . not the revenue'of the country, but to the Flourmillfcrs' Association, and amounted to over, £100,000. Last-year his Bill required only one more vote .to . pass; If Ministers were, excluded, it would bo found-that, a majority of: the members, of the-House'-were in favour of his measure. . A tax on flour .was' unique in the British Empire, and'.he , thought also' in■ mostother, countries. Ailot .was .talked about a free 'breakfast; table, but-': flour,- • ■ 'was • really • tho . staff of: We, was taxed. Some time ago -the Government -' removed tho tax from I'sugar,'' > but;, the consumers had not -, received tba'benefit. The mpney. could have been.well spent: on .roads, and -.might, have-kept..the Government', from tho: necessity of going at pre- ■ sent. to., the bowing once, again to the pawnbroker.' -Jt :'was really- in ! the" interests of , the farmers that the tax'' should, be swept away. Thero 1 were at present 77 flour mills in New. Zealand,"but" it- was' his. opinion that flour :woaldvbe'oheaper. if: there .were only, onetenth. of.theinumber. ,y .;' ; ;v■>.' ' \ ': Tilt- division as to whether ■ the Bill should i be read' a : 'second time resulted as follows-.— ' ■ ' AYES. 21 , Buick Laurenson' • - Clark M'laren Colvin . ■;' ■ ' . Malcolm Davey , - ... . ■ Okey. . ■ Dillon Poole - • . Sidev ' , ■: 'Glover ■ Taylor, T. E... 'Hall. ' : Wilford Hine : Wright • •■ . m Hogan , ■ • ■■ NOES, 38 > •Anderson. Macdonald ■ Bollard M'Kenzie, Hon. £. vBuddo ■ • Mackenzie,-.■■ Hon. i'T.-. ; Boston Mander . ■ • i Carroll ' Massey'. . ■Duncan, Hon. T. - Newman ;, . •Duncan, , "Nosworthy. . Field Parata Forbes ■: Pearco Fowlds , ■ . Phillips Fraser • Rhodes ■ 'Graham Scott • Greenslade -'Smith Guthrio .'; Stallworthy ," ■ i '.'•Hardy's;- - '.' ' ' Steward . Herdman': Te Eangihiroa Herrics Thomson, J. 'C. . Lang- Ward ■, | Luke Witty .. ; : ' -BEER-DUTY. ACT, AMENDMENT. , . Mr.. LAURENSON (Lyttelton), upon being called upon 'to movo tho second reading of "he - Beer Duty Act Amendment, said he wished 'Bill to be struck out in . view of tho promise- of the Government to introduce • licensing .legislntionvnext session.- ■

LEGISLATURE AMENDMENT BILL. ■ Mr. POOLE,(Auckland West) continuing the discussion on tho second reading of tho tegislature'Amendment Bill said he could not see his' way to support the proposal. He believed that the Socond Ballot Act, though not so succsssfnl as had been expected, was preferable to Mi. ihsher's'.proposal. Mr; WRIGHT (Wellington South) condemned the Second Ballot Act. He said it was wrong for. candidates- defeated, at ;the initial ballot to' be givon 'an opportunity to combine'; against oh'e.'of the leading candidates. Then: again; if a'Government had not a ,large majority in the House," -political ■ bribejv might bo ; brought to bear. Some - provision • snould: be made whereby absent electors;could vote at a second ballot. Ho did-hot think,-/the old system'-was satisfactory - and would favour a system of '• proportiohal representation.:.-. ,Mr. : ELL (Cbristchurch South) preferred. the second ballot to the, proposed tjrsfcm;;. He be-' lieved' in a system under which the voting papers, "would be 'marked to the full' and the - successful: candidate would have ; to securean absolute ' majority. - He had always.. been; - in' : : favour. of smtdl electorates) which gave'.: the poorest mail in, the land a chance of securing the seat;. ... Mr. FORBES (Hiirunui) - moved an amendment, which Mr. Buxton (Geraldine) seconded: That tho Bill be read again that dayi 'six mouths His reason was that tho House, had, not had' timo to consider such an important' proposal. •■' . -' - ■-■■'■,' Mr.; FISHER said that the BilU would certainly be killed if': it ' w'as' deferred . for . six months. But for: party .considerations : the Bill would r undoubtedly , havo passed.: Mr. .Fisher detailed the argnments ,'ib; of his measure,- and against the second iballot system, and said that he would -sooner have any' Act in any State' of: Australia in' preference to the Second Ballot' Act as it stood.

The PRIME MINISTER said that he was not-in favour of. doferring .the Bill for six months, That -.was too ilong,'- and . might be bad -for its health. : He would sooner see a division taken on the Bill itself. Ho stated that./ Mr. I'isher' bad bKsn wrong in saying when the .debate was first' adjourned that, that adjournment would kill. the. Bill. . :'Mr.''Ksher.: The' only-.thing . that saved" it was the :collapso of tho two preceding' Bills to-night. . ■. : -I'he Prime Minister denied • that this was the case.-'V,- . '■ ' .- .■

" Mr;.' MASSEY . said- that,- the Flour • Duty Bill: w.as usually, good for an evening -and ' a Licensing Bill, for a week. . He did not nlto-of-the details of, the. Bill-lhini-' soltv'.butythose oould-be altered in. committee. .Hoiwas : ,qiiite.prepared to in the .Bill except the clause which': repealed the. Sccondr Ballot Act. He was not a'believer in :rofeTendujn, ' but; if . the. ; Second .. Ballot Act. 'were , referred ,'.to a" referendum'- of 'the. people, ho know what its fate would be. With regard, to' the referendum ho-was of the same opision bb the {Minister 'forVßailways before

he. became a Minister,"that-ii~was the "sheet anchor- of .the shuffler." He hoped ; that the Minister;for Railways was of-the 6ame opinion still. ' . - : • , v

.The :Hon. J. 'A. Millar: The' same opinion exactly. .- , Mr.' Massey said he thought that the. system •of proportional representation 'was the most .democratic.known;* and : thefo were more possibilities •of 'improper .and corrupt practices, in connection- with .the second ballot than under any other system. The' polioy: which the 1 Gov-ernment-would follow at the ' nest election ffould .be to, put up. four candidates and . combine the unsuccessful ones against the candi-date-in the second . ballot- wno they did not want-to see successful. No man .in the world could etand against a combination of that kind. . ; • The.Hon. J. A. MILLAR said he intended to .vote against the second reading.-. With regaid to !the Rangitikei election, he would ask Mr. Massey what would' have happened - if there bad been only one candidate on either side? " Mr." Massey: I know how the vote went, '. Mr. Millar: So do I.' . Mr. Massey: The true Liberals wero on our side.-. Mr.Millar: Were they? • ; Mr. :Massey: I was there (Laughter.) ' Resuming, Mr. Millar saicl the second ballot should be.-given a fair chance. . Mr. Massey: We have had 78 ballots already.

, Another member (to Mr, Millar): How many gallops will it require?: Mr;'Millar: Perhaps'2o. ' T .The, member: 'You. won't be-here'then. \ ; Mr.'.Millar":. The. second ' ballot 1 system- will 'be'very, hard to repeal. '.. : ; •' ' 1 • -Mr. MIKE, (Wellington - Suburbs) preferred the old;.system to the second ballot' system. Under thb latter . system there would be notning .but strife,, from, beginning. to end. i- There was room for a now system. ' ' Hon. D.. BDDDO said-' he.* took it' that no other Iparty-.were so-successful'in' withdrawJJB surplus candidates -from- an election, as the, Opposihon, '- Seeing '-that' thatr was the case, ..the -position which ;Mr. ".'Massey feared could, .bo met by tho Opposition-putting up a. : large >.mimber.-'of candidates. :just as - wefi as thsi Government could.. Electorates, should i |.be sulhciently small..to enable candidates .to come into,;touch .with the whole, of,the, electors. It was .practically, impossible- for all• parties I to.'be- ; propedy,'-iw«se n ted'in the' House. The ballot,, system . had • -imperfections,' but n? .i?r°4,,??2 T P r0 , v . ed to.have great;faults. ij' pjl'ORD (Hutt) considered that one could/get up to more tricks--in connection with the second -ballot thanin ' regard to an ordinary Bill. Ho could not' see the Value of the proposed scheme, > but,, if'he got the opportunitv, he would vote for the repeal of the second ballot. It was*'his intention to 'I - socond reading.--in order-that that might,bo done. ■ ■ •• Mr i t AItNOLD (Dunedin Central) said he was ij .mucht the same, position as,'-!the. last i n i tt l° course of. his . remarks he declaredthat .steps should -.immediately, be taken'it?.'se.e,; that the.-.varions, rolls: I 'were as' perfect .as possible.- =: < • (Bay of Islands) >was of opinion that the _proposed system would - occasion con-' lusion. Ho thought, however, that the question. should be 'Settled at once." - ■Mr : srALLWOKTHY (Kaipara) said he could.,seo.no good in the Bill. It was his hn ln I B ?? aUed 'W elailse, should bo reintroduced. He. was-sorry .that a treat wi "k lber ys a ®d corruption went, on under 1 j 6eco ? ballot and ..the Drevions sysbaHnfi 1 J perha P 3 between two MFmr/mn™ to .™ch practices, i -iur. jflaLl) (Utaja) considered - flinf fiia Second Ballot Act had no™ re A^ means a satisfactory measure Ho thouirhf however, . that Mr. Usher's Bill was not an improvement, t and tiU they: could tod someAir smw - 0 ?' 14 as they were. , ilr. Sn)EY (Dunedin South) commenced to wa?called fnr'rtf" 0 n j n S tes l at ®r attention jailed for, the. second time to the state of the House, and- the bell was rung to obtab At 1145 the, amendment lost ?h„ ° 10e ?J a 1(llvlB i°n was taken' on the motion that the Bill be read toe. . The-result of the division was that the AYES, 27. ! AHon. 'Luio. Anderson • Malcolm ' Arnold . . 'Mander • ■Buick;.,- Massey . I • • • Nosworthy', v • ■Fisher!,'.' ■•'. Okey ~ ' v „ ,Praser,. Pearce ■ ' '■'! ,Graham ... Phillips • Guthrie , Khodes ■ Hardv - Scott .Herdman- . Sidey ' Hemes Wilford ;?>■»" Wright • Lang\ - . x NOES; 34. .. 5 -Hogg. . .; iiiLxton ; ... Jennings ' , r.?" 1 * 1 ", 0 ' ' Laurenson ..Clark , Afaicdonald . •S°.l ym M'Kenzie, Hon. E. s a .Y e y'■ Mackenzie,--Hon. T, Dillon ' : ' -Millar I Duncan, Hon. T. , Ngata ' " ■■■ :. Parata . . •''old Poole ' ■ vPorbcs. . Roed I ?f, 017 , Stallworthy' ■" .Wove;., , . Steward '. ,;.. Greenslade,, To Eangihiroa I §??'• ■'. Thomson, J. C." I ;Hanan : . - .Ward -Hogan. Witty ADJOURNMENT PROTESTi At ,this stace. (11,40 p.m.) the Primb.Minister moved the - aajournment/. ;^ Ir - ~HEBDiUN thought^the^ House should hnV& Urn- the motion had proposed. ' If Government. business was being discusscd there would be no adjournment at that hour. There;.were few 'opportunities to discuss-privates-members' BilKvand be and' others had' important Imeasures; on the order 1 paper. . . , / Joseph: You know that■ you can't y&t beyond a oertam stage with your Bills. #r.,Herdman; I,'intend to.;try.'. He was aivaro thai tho . Prime Minister dominated the position. He (Sir Joseph) was perhaps the most powerful, autocrat m any Parliament in the Government .business, and he,(the speakerVwer® to suggest, that: it should bo,adjourned, .Sir 'Joseph.;,would ~be.lfollowed lnto his.lobby, by all his followers. , Hon. T. Duncan: We would vote "No" :- Mr.' Herdman: You would, do .what you were told. If Sir Joseph told you to/vote in'a cortain-.way you .would do so. .' Sir Joseph: Nonsense., ; "Mr. Herdman again emphasised the point that it t was-private members'night,. -Sir Joseph:-Local Bills?. , 1 :Mr.' Massey: No, private Bills. ' ■Mr. Herdman said it was evident that.there .would be fow opportunities-to'consider private members' business this session; Private menibers' privileges had already been curtailed far too'much'.' He intended'to make n protest in tho 'mattcr. As it was only 12 o'clock'one of the Bills-could be-discussed for'at least half an hour. ... • v ; The Prime Minister, said, he would point q\it'that on many .occasions whence had found it a conclusion .he'had moved-the adjournment before 12 o'clock, j In regard, to ,both of ,the IBills.' Mf. Herdman: know he could not. proceed. : ■ •'< Mr.':H6rdman: Not : -until-: the;: Speaker has ruled to that effect. ■ - ■ ;

'■ Sir -:.Toseph: You lmow 'you- can't get "them througk'. ■'• . ' . :: .y.

"Mr. Massey: Then it -would' be time to 'adjourn. . '

Sir Joseph: Mr. Herdman fcnows thai one of his Bills contains appropriation clauses. Mr. Herdman: That is not for you to say. Sir Joseph: A similar Bill was ruled out before.

, Mr. Massey: It may not ba done on this occasion. ...

Sir Joseph: Tho Chairman of Committees is bound to do 60. Mr. Massey: But not the Speaker. ■ Sir JOSEPH WARD repeated that it would be a waste of time to go on »>:th the Bill. Mr. Herdman knew he could not get beyond a certain stage, but he wanted an opportunity to repeat the arguments he bad used- when introducing the first Bill. With respect to tho other Bill, Mr. Herdman knew it proposed to extend the rights, of the Crown. If either Bill got to the committee stage, the Chairman,'if he did his duty, would have to stop its progress. The adjournment was carried on a division by 35 votes to 23. The voting was as follows:— Ayes: 35—Arnold, Bnddo, Buxton, Carroll, Clark, Colvin, Davey, Hon. T., Ell, Field, Forbes, Fowlds, Glover, Graham, Greenslade,.Hall, Hanan, Hogan, Hogg, Laureuson, Macdonald, M'Kenzie, Hon. R., Mackenzie, Hon; T., Millar, Ngata, Parata, Poole, Reed, Stall-worthy, Steward, Te Rangihiroa, Thomson, J. C., Ward, and Wilford. Noes: 23—Allen, Anderson, Buick, Dive, Fisher, Frase'r, Guthrie, Hardy, Herdman, Heroes, Hine, Lang, Malcolm, Mander, Massey, Nosworthy, Okey, Pearce, Phillips Rhodes, Scoit, Sidey, and Wright.