THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 642, 20 October 1909, Page 9

THE HOUSE.

" , FIRST READINGS. 'The Honso toot at 230 pm, i £ ( j •' W"'' ths Gamine Act, 100S 33,1! (Mr, Ell), and (Wpinies and UiiiißSuoiatioui' Trust liWya Bill (Mr. Willord) wort introduced and read &fi«t time BOM/W CATHOLIC EMPOWERING BILL iff'i"? 1 tho report of the Joint toiuttltteo on Standing Orders and Pmato Bills m regard tothe Roman-Catholic ArchDiSnop 01 Wollinrton Empoiverinß Bill, »Mch w« not Sufficiently ftdviftisecl prior to the prajent Mssioin The,Bill was fully notified before the'shift sosbion, "hut after thn,t a new - «i»aa) i ttA>jcr3sfadi''.flrid'.ai'ijii!j3equcDt period

of /noiifoation-was' three 'dnys'-Shdrt "df.- .tha period laid down by the .Standing Orders. Thd that, tbq Bill bo al- ■ lowed .to, procced,' and their ■ recommendation won endorsed by thb House. ADDRESS-IN-REPLY. AN OTAGO MEMBER. - Mr. SCOTT (Tuapokaj resumed the ' debato on :.the, Addross-in-lteply. Ho • expressed-. his s'Stisfactib i that both (no riiover and the see- '. orideif 61 the Addrdss U-ei'O' stfoiig. supporters of ; the;: freehold. Closer settlement with a .secufb tonuro was • one of the most important (juestibns that'could cbmo before tho country. Tho Native land question should bo settled to the s&tisfattibliiot. bOtH!.ActSi . The question of-af-forestation Should receive tho serious attention of .tfiS GbyefmMrit.liiid iri Central Otago t'hero was iirgeni jibed of. irrigation, '.Tho Otago C6n- . tral railway would pay but for tho. onormous Iflitial;cost of■: ifS cdnStruotiflii/ due.; .to tho blunders of' a previous Government. . As .rc ; ■ ijardsvthe.V^oppagiS^oE'tlio LAitrence-Rosbiirgli railway it was.rather late to. discover. ,th&t a : line' would ;hot' pay.-.after its construction, had • been going on;- tor. .four 1 years, 'and had cost about <£60,000; ' This. was. a. most unbusinesslike "way of. : constricting railways.!' if .the liheNVas' : not going to pay ( it, should , never have bton sfaTtcd. Land Imtdatilectcd'by the pc-opie, appoiiitea. by tho GoV.bTriiiient, \ver.» urged by Mr. Scott. • MR. GREENSLADE ON BUTTER MOISTURE. ; " ifr. OIiEEftSJjAM (Waikltd)' COiifihed his remarks to the subject, of moisture: in biitteiv Ho took'exception to>the stateraont of tho.Hon. '1': Maefttoo that; somo producers ' pumped ' moisturo into their, butter..;lt-..wodld--bo.'o4it-tef if thA MiiilstW attempted to pump a little, cominoii Sense into' sothtJ,bf'thfi officials/of fci's Dbpij-tifiSrit: -. Mr/ GrteiislcidaifCad '-Poluminous cofrbspSndeicc 'dealing with tho recent; Auckland. Jitbsccutions., . .; '' . LABOUR AND THE LAND. :• Mr. ■ (Wellington East) doubted if thei:ljMdquestion'' tbuld-, be'; settled .-.this session/"dtisirablo; as. its settlement was. One; . bf.,..tM .fiht .things ;that,.had:.to; bo prevented ,in "any of.: land. reform : ;that'.could,.bo: caUed Liberal,' Democratic, or Labour, was';. th 6 aggregation of estates.lt was no, use borfow-; . iSg tsd'sijr..-^lli-ffllVliif' |tM ■ St&ttfS,'Sfisdit " for; tho purchase of estates if th'oy 'were going ; i i; Allow tlifl .f&j?.7t6'',KlflitiH''iunriing' afid ; th£ tftftk' to be tfontiuually filled, up(. 'Iho.KGcond thing l ; necessary; '■ Was to : pitevelit ;thb. holding of 'land.without-'Jise.,.. If,it Was domandid that' tho MaUViS'jiiidS should; bo;"brought .into ,use, there; shtnild -b0 {that,, w.oiild. '.enMiro' that the.pakoha's. lands would also bo brodght into; the fullest u'se. fbr tho benefit .of tho pbbple 6f the whole Dominion.- The third thing to ptevbnt., frM .thb Confiscation of ; tho national estate ioiprivatb, ondi. ...When it was remGmr beted that .thousands of. peoplo in this'.;c6tin- : -.try,did.not 6wh a single inch of land he urged. thAt to Itilk' About. selling . tho; Crown lands was nothing else but . a proposal; fot..ifholesalo,i i : <!dhfis6ation iri;v the intefests of a section. of. thocommuiii ty. - It meant in;Crea«iing;:;&4d ■■extendi#!'iho.;-spirit ;.,of, lind gambling f6it;:the: behent;6f .a. fow people find to the;detriment of tho: Dominion;as a whole. It-shouldibe; recognised..that the lftAds of'tho ;StaM ( wefi .held ili' triiSt-for. tho ' jVndlei t vMfi' "retoWd to th' 6 immigratiofi, questiony stating .that there hiid^notbeen that Carofiil. Scrtitiiiy;-in t ,tho. selection .-.of :inimißraßts- that .'Wis -; and that ibe--fpft. tfe..lttvttcd; iieoplo';,to; (>uif taßlO »We should makd SoW6 .pfSpiratioft for tl)6m,V- 110 -dehied that pwtitto..in-.,Wdlinfrton, WaS.ifts-bad,' ivenWJPWortion .to pflpalfttioa, ;as it -was.in lonfe Witnessed' in' ionSidefed ■'doplArablo 6onrtititons for a -.yoimjf cotihtry liko this:' - Srtme' ago h(! kno#ii-a Wso nf fiiiir families-jmpg,itogfjh«f:-jii a,fo(ii'-roo«ied, h6nso: ■ Tho' ,land . question , bo'so 'deMt' with' -aS to ■ OScourago.' .wnrkcrsj.tb; make .their - homes - in in reply to condemnation of labour agitators, illLt tba mbst' dangei'bus ■'S- in '-tw- iftatf who talked Sii if" ' Ad.-fiot.u-nndewtandi-' m. Sffi. i of ;S mombbrs ; of;, local.: baiies "pnHW 'V f^ n i fn, [s: /^'Satisfaetofjr'-- until.'tho. Parliartcntarjrfranchnta --flfted.: -'It feAsfor Ha-ibfl 0 - i, iH' mUn ' 6l f ,a '- franchise for. ..harbourboard.■ elections! . but thero ; ttas ciWKndßrtWe^BafmlM' nfhJPli. f o , rm i r of ■ "frnh'cUiso - ibr * ,thesb' 'L t'lonprb t that tho iioim. :.M R. I N£ wANtB: PROG RESS. • ' f S! r ? ss i? i pro ? < ? sal in tho Governor's IS 'S r' h / nt ■ at -v' lation#l ' ! IV fiidh originally 'came from tho Onboaition: si(le of- the vHouso,;,being,! first - put. forward ? A t - ° r Atkinson.:. Ho, regretted .I°,'.:fi™ l ',. no ■ kferMtd. tft '-tbii qiiS/Stibn ofJ lbcal-fbfbtm,-.which; they had. been mamised, year.; in,V yiar, out/ ,nb iribntion ' of £ sttran6S;agaiHst' tinSfnjjlbS-rrtfe&t ind.other stated, 5?,®

of the, that i-thp. Mb'u'ut' Eghibrit. stonMmhiag.:plant, .with .the':'railway:and,all : itTOilKincft-;did v not cost iWrotiifM' teSrt' Vtlt ®:■-Tailwair 'ii: cost' ht °lv^:-fH; ;»P f ':ti> : '.' morb/Htnh; JjO.ppO.; • The. stdnMrfußhiliji j. plant and wAter wrnco.had ;oost abbut^il^O^aki^'a cost 0/ Same ieo.ooo. ■ .' ™'<>l iM f lled,-wWo-. taken from the Departmental : returns; : Mr 1 Kmc said--he would. ask.,for;a :fnll return l of' the expenditure iri, connection • with ■ the fetntip ■ •mronohiaeht ?ff6hem6, Mr.-. .Ilina. stifonglv ton--derailed the dismissal of. nearly the whole of the road • inspectors. ...In the, interests or' the. de v elonmiiit:ofvthfe,.country .this was the bno JJppartment that should not, have bceri.tduched Road works t had boen-brought l^ '.to* a- standstill A B . sfto of •.tho.;Government, polioy,•: find \ ofces had • be6a unexpended, in $pfteVuf ; w^ftM::'apptoto;y^]isvpritaffvMinl«teif-.".h'isi: ?p ■*?*.? bridge mollis 'distfibt; that toconld not - an thorisc,_a -.rote without 'tho sanction' <6|; Parliament.; Yet: .£SOO •could- 1 be provided :.fof tho travelling-expenses; to' England bf the Hon. ' MVi ■,aaii-JOMs; .>ho -was' l going; to draW 'a' .sala.rr .jot; .£2OOO. a' year.! 1 ' The 1 vote was- to- \■ - J* 0 P' 6 * I }° hfttl - rib' means ofcommtinication by 'which; they could ob'tiiri . f °°? •, a ? d their children ,to : school. 1 - Tlib : stin\. of :.had.:bten-sent. for- the relief of the distress in Italy, but the-people isolated in . the bush win in, just, as much distress. On. tho land question tho Opposition :\vcfb not asking ,for , the freehold, diid aothiilg • ele6V that -*<w in.mkrepresentation :of the, other fide, bill tJi£?r ; shjd ; thftt man. was desirous to' poetess thi; pifco : ,bf ; land on'-which 1 ho lived" and -was 'not satisfied until .it' was- his. own' HO; hoped .'that legislation would bo passed this' session'.to place Europeans and Maoris on'the to iand. 1 ., •?. : .' *, Ibe :.? ri piß;Minifitor;m9de.'.nn..cxpjah'a'tien in 1 respect of several matters touched by Jir Hine.He stated that tho Minister for Pttblic Wotks wohld Hter. on submit all .the figures in. regard to., tho- stone-cruSliirl!! 1 plant.' stine in the-.Taroriaki district could not 1 be eat eicept at ftn ungual experiso, and in this- cas> tho plant .Was. installed to :provide stono for tho Tajanriki district. Mwhtoh the. '6f that' district.had b&ri' dbMiirtding; for a long time. 1 ' With . regard ; to ifhe.'request by.; a depu tatibri! Siy' ,Joseph .said . that jt..^wasL^ot;..usual' for Ministers ' toauthorise expenditure for roixda -Vfßich'". VfoS.:. hbt provided, for 1 by tho Public Works estimates, . though it might be dona .'in ciiifcs .of grave emergency. Th 6 Wanting of amounts to Mr; Hill-Jones and..tho auffefcefs by tho.ltalian <Mrthquake .tf-aa ft different Matter, each ease the action.- tfaS.'ia acoOrdonbe with law. absolutely... Th6:frfcht"tS' the Italian ;BUlfei'Crs' hhd Heba .corifirrilcd ;by Parliament - withbnt disoussibrii,•. In rbply to a turther statement-by m, Hinoj- 1 the Pnfno Ministet;.statod in, the evbhine that 1 tho crusher and the railway together did not , cost, so much fts.>Eso,ooo. .The'- allowatfce made' to the .High; Comihißsionbr -for":travelling e.-t- ; jionscs on. his way to England was iio more' than hW. been -done'fori, other 1 -High Comiriissloners by : various Governments;: 1 '. llr. Hi no: said that the amount of XI6OO .which had been refused for a bridge in his district :waS ; for{h6omintt ."ivithin .fortnight and; handed • ovor -to another local 1 body. . 'J'he Prima-Minister 6aid that probably there was an amount on the; estimates in tho. case of ; the second local; boily. 1 ■ .Ho would liavb nil iiilthoritativo statoriient pifovided, which would show that Mr. nine's flgiires were, enfiroly ift. .'correct. ; ■ 1 . ; i : ; MR. DAVEY'S SPEECH. . Mr. DAVl'iy (ChristchurcU East) said ha thought the tune had arrived when tho members of hbSpital; arid charitable aid boards should bo olectcd oh a popnlar vote. Ho .Would be; Vei-y /plebsed to accept the Government's proposals in rcfiard 'to h&rbohf boWda if they Could hot go l further. He 1 thought it .■vriis vefy, debit table whotlior the people whbld should not have the privilege of voting 1 for niombors of harbour boards, especially w i en i the boards had rating powers, lie looked for--1 word with no pleasure to the dlftcufision. which [ wonld take,-placb'on,tho.Land Bill, for-bnly I eightoen months am a Land Act had been I gassed • which ha did not, think had had a tair trial as yet. Ho know that Since last election — they were told by': ..thoV'- i Pppositibn/ 1, ;- ; th()'i' , blim- . ounng -lor : the-.'freehold.He . : entirely 'dif-

!" t? M(1 point,'-Snd-he-WtlW enlcf-'i'atV ' .Jho question fuJiy.: when iM' tifno calms. If : rftiitd : to ' T ? t yftW} dmf-.<Ji9t»bsd .of" tEd. laiids :, lor settlement And those Hiajntifidehfc fiients formed in- 1907—(Mr.- MaSsey: SMaitWd 6nuowmonts)—the people of the couuti'y Should • be ulftdo to .undorstind. from the Government smb that the . magnificeut endowments set apart for old ago pensions, educatioti/aud Other ~ purposes- werei in peril by the action bf the !• Opposition. Tho 'OpMsitidA &aid that ■' they frew. worth only .£40,00(1 a year, and that thor ; tvould 'never,. bo Worth. tnor'o. than ".£BO,OOO a I r ' „ "®. r pnt from-the reserves to-(lay was hot a flea-bite .to what wiw being paid for edtiI r? l oli . an f fI J? P2iisi6ris, but what .would it bo :in twenty, years'? , ' it- w6ii'fc.be any more'. Mf.DiWeyj Pardon: hie, it will. ■ ; , Mr. M&Ssey:,,The leased are fof.jj feats' ; Mr. DaWy Said that if . all the saleable'pori tion of- that-land; Were Sold to-diy', it teoilld ■ be to ciir'tail. the niKnbef of people Iati(l1 Refining Mr. Davey Said that hs doald iot .always defend sdfih trtiisMtiofiS on tho part of (he Government, but theV tter« Jliabli to'cohtttit tho aetiohS of all their df- ' miSreiireserita- ;■ tiohs which ho alleged had b&h irtide by Vafii 'i&'l&fl&o Ueaiia'g' ivith .- 'J?,w 8111-/?«•'Piter:B 111 -/?«•'Piter: skid. s«-m ■■ {OW.ftat .&;!««<> deputation frOm tho Hohsi, including tho present Prime .Minister) hnci onco waited oil the ; former . railway .commissioners asking;them to altdt ft.certain sySteiii, and they, were absolutely snubbed, "tflie com- . hnssioners. replied'that they would, do exactly, Jvnat theyiliked.. Ho;did not W(int to revert 0 "I'M 1 ™ 6f I . tll,D e s r like that. Returning' '£• ?t i.- { ® , 'ho Cf.6wn. teii&fttS 1 the i a ' ® . o^!Bina l ,falue was ■ Absolutely .diShdnest.-.and.criminal, "No greater : : Sff««d.' Ho tfas. prepared , to : *sk the people If the lands io# 6ttned by the colony should - bo Sold. ..His own party were determined to keep thoa> lands for the people, and if .they .failed they would go down . with, their 'colours flying. (Opposit'on Taughte.),, Mr.„Daveyj esked who .ware;.,the:faddish.who wero said to rulo the ' Mucation.;l)epartment. . Vtfaddists" find ' fcpti .te6pm\Sifele'f6r is6fu6 of:ihe flnest'legislation'-in . tho world. v '°, MB. HERDMAN'S -SPEICH. - Mr. JEERDMAN .(Wellingtoß 'North) urged : M.hti 1^K P i irs v. IBB i.t.'he policy of constructing Jidblio. works by the. dfroperativd gySteth, £h« Government had wasted hundreds of thousands bf pounds. Mr. Davey had-asked what Acts of the present Administration the Opposition,'if ' they came; ldto. Sbweiy. ..would repeal. • He jbe- . J»?«o tliat they!.would repeal',.the' Seo>hd Ballot Act. 110 believwl that a number of tho , trpvernment-, meinberi; .vfiSuld M 'in'faveW of t-epealmg . that. measure; . 'Some: of, the" Oppfeitioiii at..Wast; Wbtild" iri.fatouf of- ; in K legislation';whioh r permitted the 'vGdVorti-! tnent to ..manage the railway's as they. ~woro , managed at" present. . XJnder . tho present system •, the loss oh the rail^aj's. was < at least , 4160,000 a. ywf. =:• ( . .- . v - Sir,.J oseph\WardThat.is not correct; Mf. .Hei-diftaks' Well/ do you admits that'tHe loss is xioo,doo? - - I Sir Joseph ;Ward.' I know, what the system is ; undor which we. are', carrying'out the railivays,• add ffe ifd.not going .to, dhange it for ■ you. -o v, J Mr. . He?dni4n explained , how hisi istikato of iE160,000 V.4S, at iivedj {it.-V:. ; . . Prime' Minister:' Yen'.made it i3ooiooo - b. few months ago. v ; ■ . i. ■ V Ur - Herdmani' I daresay 'that : i8 ; within tho . the' reil- , Ji-ays is thdt no- 1 one .knows, .fho. esact'jofs.- , We dAilhdt, get it' from thd Govorhmonti de havo got to compute it fer our«lves. Tho . Opposition Would also be in favour of repeal-, ing the .Pnblio Re'vemioa Act, and tho existing ' OiVil- SefViee Act.lf, the GiV-U' Sewlce wefft placed, .under' cornVniSsiotters tliefo. would ,be tnore,;justic'c than, at the present; time,' and ho , .hihewd that. , the 'public s'erVAilW ,'theaniieWefl Would soon recognise that: they had better, toasters and.. were; rooro justly, treated.'; An Old AraUmcnt EX|idsiSd. ' Mr. Davey had said that if holder!! 6f th« > lenso in.sperpetuity \yrtn-. givon "the..freehold, there would be n breaoh of contract. "That the! same'old iVgiiment, . e.iid Mi I .' , Herdfribh. I ' "How' can there possibly- be a breach of .'TOntracfc - wbeii- tha two parties to-tho. cfth' ' tract. agree ' to" rescind. the existihg contract 6 i nd'.. adbf>t: another,iit -its place." i -For ":yo4b ; the ,systorii;.,of eharit&ble. aid had II1U(1 J . uling' along • in•; an illogical manner, and the i Goyorliment had fcflieed till. ndW to tacklo tho Question,-;.as' they: had-'refused ■ to ;tiieklo tho . fluestibn'.of.-ldcil gdvenimertt teforttii , The now. Ml seemed; to lum to be sound, &nd ho'con- ; •graMlftted.".the .G6v6rnniettt: that: at last -they ■ had-' deternlined to'deal With this-'question.'; /hey esuld ; depend on. every hSsistanco fronl getting that BilV on the Statute' Book. At'the end 6f lftst week they had had a most entertaining .fcetfotihahce. On the- part of the Pfime Minister, , and the . member fot Master* • ton, : a unique performance, « v hich, in a sense, wis mumotoas.i; .-r ; ; 1 ? ht> -V rltfl< '--Mlnlsto*: -Was that in this de'-' bate, Mr, Speaker? -. ' : The;Bpeiker-VeS.' • ■: Wdihttn-'-bfielly: ™tnmarised the chief - points of:,that,discussion, v^'and, stated''-that' frhich ..^Wfts-- -the - cot'tecfc ■■;ittatomolitr;- ; "'tho , Prime Minister's ;or/Mr,;:'.Hogg's; wiuld doubt'SSli w ? T A, - r^? ln ' v 5- . , ; HS , wiS ' rprised-ihat-Mr.'Hogg;was lievef tdldiwhat . tho ■■(>oySmmciit'g;.^lij^;. , 'ifiis. , v.;,:Ho' Iqtiestione'd ■ very, muehyif the membefs-"6f,"'th6 ' Cabinet . knew,what it.was exactly.' ■ ->• > A Will-oMhcWisp Policy. ~ ,i ;'' rt I s 'f h '! luslVo ' hMul Bor t of thing, jiow t l i an " no */y?? doB t. hero to-day, and ' anndunced: to-d&y M K f™ l v I '^ t6r, ' linil; iindthet - day it is ftnted with diitorene'es of detail by 'the, MinHram ? r e ll'? 9 '" 1311 MM tbo P o ' of Mf. Hogg was,, n-01l known. .-Tlie Prime -UlhistM , stn tM.iho. pdliey, of .the Goverh'te-' -vwi 1 ' - u ithrough,; Amcrica'i hd Said. \H nscertaih rhat the people want. : W, .we. givo it' them. •;,"?( : papeV^!"'" 6 ' niitor:; '- WiU y OU '3 U( >'o:.ft«' j?' r i,%^ man: j-can't quote the paper, but - iiiigh't to-read the i,Mr.\ H erdman: At', :hd did not sav:i°i 1 ?n of -tlifi GdWrhhierit.- y ; Lvernment. * ' K 3 s : th ? P°'i?y "fievery wl' m or 4 m m n: . No ' 14 ,s no'. ;.:Mf. : Jaytei p Kould:.ljd;\^^v. 1 St r - Herdman: No,-it 'ShoUldyudt-bc;''- Tho " a Government Should bo to-find out i P thou!, If,the people of the ' tl fHv' vcr f la ' lll ho Reached tho ago of 21 slimiM receive :'iCsoo' a tf w f- that , t° bo given theitir vIS i i i j ® Te " to ™»h a, policy as had been lai.l down, mm would stare the couiitrv in the. face. |he GoVerntnent,, being, .composed) BUppoSedly, of men of experience ailll euiao the .people ' driven ' content - itsSf .: i»ith being ■ ; A-mtniber! Or gd out 6f eflice. - T The GoyerHrtien t; Wi 11 : tt6t fib Otit.■»-'<''•.-V..'-,"' ■ L'% i ° think - the Government: will over |o out,6t'offlce ( ". said Mt. &efdftafi. -"i K come to thaUonclusioh'.after mature thought.", as.there was a .largo Storehouse of.bil." ii' LI, c 0? 10 ? 3 ;•« bfidges,, ii'.iiei- & u SS c f r^! ' Md borrowed money' could;bfi-g«t aftd 'tfU l-ashifig into the country m a huge stream,- and cduld.be applied' to buying votes, and bo long is there were men on the-Govornment'-bettchea pfMated'Eo-take advantage of those things, the Government would i temain in'office - - is getting-none-■Mr; Herdman: '"Ybu aro 'tanldcky.: . ' Opposition members: Cdnia'AVer here. « 'S ri ?? -¥ inis -t or "kod: if Mr. Herdman':, Wis against money cominfc Into the' c'Ohntry; - v. Mt.; Herdniati: I ;■ aa -'egaihst' measures that ■ .drivo ffloiiey out of-the country. "He' ktieV Of a case in whidh hod gsrie from' Otago ' ™ tho Argenhno. Hc was certain: it' could he proved- that the Government's ih the past had net,had the 1 effect bf stimulating in-' kad"b»fl ,in the ; dltection Of shiling industry. Men had frequently declared that the-i; would not invest, money in large industnes in this cbuntry." ■ •• • i , Sir Josoph Ward! Yet thd' private woalth o£ the colony has increased by 300 millions .Mr. Herdman:, I.deny that. In the lnst 1 21 yeare, he stated, population had increas«l, : agricultural lands had Wen. developed and lve were, getting moro for oUr commodities than over Wore, but he believed that the rate of progress was not Whit it should hav« been U^ 011 Iny in the hdtftssinff legialation ot the GOvernineiltiHe hoped that the Government would adopt: a line of policy that VOflld • glyo/ seourity to capital. JJf. Hefd-' maii protested apainet the Prime , Minister's assertions that lying, slanderoM, and rnilieiomi otatoraents-had been mado, against himself and ;the ■ Government, and Urged ' : that he should haVe ; bttm moro-,epooifio. . .Tha Governor's Spteeh; appeared to him v«ry like Govornore' . Speeches fof,the.last:ten years. Theoretically the Govetftof'g Speech: Ws . supposed to be a .declaration ,o{/policy on the .part :of Ministers of.tho ,Crown.', In fact,.it was not so. Every loiigVddoiiraeht . was produced of 'statejhentS"of'tfhit the Government' proposed tO'dtf,' bat very, few-of these proposals woio.ieaUsed.;

i : A 'Statement; by Mf. HerdmaiT. that in efie' f year the Government had borrowed mote than 5 {Our niilliiin 'Sterling cttused the Prime Minister 3 to osk for. details.. • • .Mr, llerdinaii:" in li! 03 the public debt was 1 AxUSV'OO. . .■■■ .... 1 The Pt.iir.o Minister: I want you to give det tails of tho loans. t '. Mr'; Herdittani i am doing so. In 1808 tho r public debt was X66,453,000 r and in 1309 it b. itas ,£7D,938,000, an iiicrcase in one year of i Will that iiatiiifs' the hon. gehtle--1 man? ■ Docs.he siy that that moiiey was nbt i Bofrdired? - - s . The Prime. Jfinistot: dive details of the bor- - fairing of; 4.J, millions for a year, which- yoii 1' say is .the dase. < 'Ir. Herdinafi: 1 will give you tins fact, that in one yeSr-yoU. increased the public debt by £4,485,000. Did you borrow it or did yoti tarn . it ? There are only two ways of increasing tlio • publio debt. - , I- 'i'ho f'riino Minister: Teli tis wllefe TTO bor- : rotted it. . I j Mr. Herdman: I don't KHSW ivheray'ori bort; lowed it. -We cannot find out. Nobody khows i Hiete you bbrroiT youf money. • 3 j CfiUtimilng after the supper adjournment, - Mr. Hcrdhiali sbid it was a fact, that the pub- -. lie . debt liad beort increased last year by 1 .£1,480,000,: \ " i ■ Tile.Prime .Minister: It's' not the trttthi;'. S; .' ill I .' Herdman; Mo# is it hot the truth? - . The Prinio-Minister •. I'll tell you aftefiVnfds. 1 I'll: tall the' whole truth. . - , Sensibility to drlticism. " . Mr. Herdlnnn wont. Oil to say that the Govit erilirietit wetoso Sensitive, to criticism that the J Oppesition nluet not opoii their inoiiths—they ; fa.ust spoalt only in . whispers.,. Things". vert £ 6oniihg to a pretty paisS \Vhenthey could not Speak, of the pubho debt. 'It was alSo. a.iiiost j ixtraordiriary : condition of affairs if tho Op- . position could not make reference to the fact 9 that the Goreriiiilent llad been compelled be6ailso of their extravagance. to retrench to tho • extent of a quarter of a million a year in the ] publlo servico. He. referred to various DepartlnentS, in . which thore had been incompetent ■ hdlrtinistration.- :Tho Stttte I'ire Department j hfid showii a loSs at the end of the year. . ,The 4 Post, Office' Department also had been so inj. efhclently iihanaged that tHcte whs now no : tegular satisfactory mail servide. - In regard to the FinanceDepartment,the Government. wttfe issuing .short-dated debentures* and no.- pjio knevr hois', -long their cU'r'roilcy. waS.- ._Theto. 1 bills frero constantly falling due lil-large qUaiU % titles, and ho doubt the Minister fdr Finance e was frequently in tfottbio because ho had nbt s Only,. t6 ptbvidi for fresh loans for public f yrOrks ( bilt liad to be constantly arranging for f these debentures that were fallihg due. This year there Were .£3,19!),O00 fdlliflg due, in l!! 10 - fij l ®##.. in 1911 .£852,000, find ill 1912 ? St- ~®..would have been glad had tho Prime f Minister, while in Englaua, succeeded in bor- " fy, 6 "? l Iar <5° enough : to rodeem these shorwlated- debetiturcs and ', place them on a substantial - footing. Tho Advances te Settlers' 0 i/epai'tinoilc 'also had been in difficulties duri- infe at all events & portion of tho year. The t. uovornmeht;;he maintained) should in the first instance have.assisted,only struggling settlers, not :have ; interfered with the legitimate bteiiess. of-flnahcjiii institutions, which as tho resnlt; of the : Qovernnleht polity had been a driven out of . tho countrf. Finally, Mr. Herdnlan said that the political garden was full of r weeds, and l it ifas necessary that the gardenotfe .' should bo .dhanged. If the tree, was rotten at tad' ilftmes P u " »P and cost into ° ,bv yiy ef personal explanation; o ! ®bmfrt? n «°i? 0 M?. t0 the Jtotemonli -?Knt the xfl n borrowed" £i,448,000 last year.- : stn H t hat Prime Minister r was making a speech. , . 1 Li • .Speaker'.ruled that Sir ,T6 P pph KHs in order so long as'he did not combat argunionts ' which imd been ni.kq with other atgumetits, e fh„f At. p w (continuinft) said it waiild appear 0 Alr. . Herdman- simply deducted the e< amount 6f. the pttblie debt fit tie begihning of 1 h ? T T tho WSate at the - end Sf 1 M ? S 1 C0 ?) 0 to the conildsion that tho r, difference,was. lft U "borrowed." .It;would be - fst office funds, Which had ifl accdrdaiice with law been ' Wnn] r MrffV t i clu d i! \t h 'i Wkl itt qlostion. a ■ i f 7 the reqdireiriehts I, 6 - ml? ot h »ve been With F t : Si-' f a^s ?y. ! Jhe. meHey traS bbrrowedi 1 ■ i- Ji 1 j ii a quibbling. It is h tte nerve to botriw, but the " investments,' - ' ' " t .TnimiU , In'- M& f?y complaiiied' that Si# Joseph was, rc4lly > making a. Speech: He said 1' U * n i-- B ,l 6 be allowed.to e OA' A oDß: u St> i? c ? after each fepenkei'. lint the Speaker replied that Sir Joseph iiad nbt I .trgnegressatl tho rules of debate.' ' , uii r Proceeded te Say that Mr. Herd-k?;?Aa-di.nnt P°'. nt ¥ nUt in addition tft the k , s®-W Mentibned that .the i I i!f i' n . < '! li " 0 f ltl ' sn tC101,970 Invested in t-cfeard to,'the" Publie Trust offiri>' ■ ■ l invested in this country, in rejarit t ?, th -l post ? ffice iV Mr. nerdmaii ha'd convfycd t tho impression that the whole of the'monoy • Was Mvcstod forGovorhmcntal purposes. >( iowlij! M :SDOnD * " not: 1)6011 or " .; . Sir Joseph said that the, requifeWelits of kw :■ tonld: iiot bo overlooked. He wished Mfi Herd- •> ™°' ,W nl?° k :':?*■ tf?, '"ins to local. bodies f i Thcii afjf.irt .the 'Meiftflvrahi railway I cost . the-country one million. The 1 Government v ..eWWod\for ;adv&nces to '' eettlorfc ■ o- It loaned out of itiVestmoht' fufids to i : SiS ' a ? d ,5 1! ! 495 7™ invested iii tho | ftcqulrertent ofMhbdcd: esthtoS. ■ Ufldef the !: ..&owrawent'Bailwajß' Act- tho GoVernifleiit''bbf - fo . r i the flntt,railway t ,^?W>OO.. Mr."Herdfnan. had not . given' :,tho . f lightestidea what • monov lmd beeit ! n ,yPi. d '.. , Th F° ■ wcre ft'l'y two-thirds rvJi a ? 1)DOn ,' invested, and from ii i a direct return of .interest. II F 111I 11 M""- Ifedmaa think it necesiary to . Say. tho 'cbuntry hail paid off JS-ÜB,OOO in £ IreftsUry DillS, nbr that.jE2!l2,ooo hiid beeh raid Off:;by way.,of sinking '• funds invested. Mr. : • Hordman:iiad:also omiUdd during f ' period-.the fevciiue .had increased by. an iiictfiaso of expendituro in:that'penod;of • • • v- , ; said tiiat the ; sthtement • ;by, ; thfl':.;PrirrtD . Minister donflrmed' his ' original; Assertion. .If. tho Government had Hot i ipti money: from;, the Public Trust: and Postal j PelJtotmonts, they would have had. to get it ?■ elsewhere.: ■ i' Said that the GoVcth* i Ki? • £ • n<tt; invest a pennv' of tho Pbst . umce .-Sattngsi'Bank.'moneys ; in. a. mortgage ; m business'funds. ' • f I/;■ Mr. RUSSELL'S remarks'. ; 'jAvon) said tliat since'lß9l '• ' on, tho policy of a" -Whritcj; in tho , sense of needed, and.giying it to -thorn. The Government had always led. fie defended tho 3 #stem: of •: cooperative :werH- whose chief ob- .. ject. was to nimimisa the effect of fluctuations i employment, a.nd ho quoted figures'to show i 1 K an - "!■ 'ndustfies during the prel Aont Administration. ; In the last ten. years 1 "'<> . c '' , P ,tal invested in industries in New Zeft. 1 I l , b y sii millions, In • tHAf Ho' thought 1 JW..>:.sdft«wnt reply to tho charge a Jf discourdgiuft industries. In connectibn mth ; ''j lr i ,i ot , Mn ® 1 H" c " t 'Otenio, the • Government r had. tiotod wisely, prudently, find, boldly.- ,Thd increaso in investments on: mortgage 'in New Zealand,by'investment companies whose head 6ffioes were outside New Zealand were as foli .. loVri^looS-fl,'lneredse over tirevious year J'iov. r, 19°e-7,-increase §01); lwF i'nc"reai a inqreiSe J!374,000; or a total . lncreiise for the period of jE1,330,00f1, Mr; Rtlsi ...fell also, quoted, figuiss for the pnrpbse of / 'Sra Sil i stringeacy f fras independent of the Government's borrow'. • fng Mlioy. _ He stated that of the ffiohoy bor- ' towed by the Government from the AMP i Society net one penny had been borrowed ■ Vrithin tha last fivo years. «u»«u I .. Speaking on the land question, Mr. Russell : ® al " fj e , tnoußht a Compfemiso itiight be m&ds ?■ by Which the tenant should hive not onlV . ,hie improvements secured lb Ma, but 0 fair moiety of the unearned increment m his ehftre for the work ho had done- He would stronff v '. °PPo«o.any proposal to part-with the fiatieual • endowments, wdiioh ho thought should bo ' ;localised in many coses for the benefit of-par- ' • faoular'. institutions. . ■ J OPPOSITION AND CAPITALISTS ; . Mr. ;,in the .cenreo of a porsonal etplahationi denied absolutely a statement of ' 1 tho last speaker thfit tho Opposition were tho representatives of the capitalistic class. "Tho statement,.:: s/ild ,Mt. Miisscy, "is. without E foundation: iri fact, "and is absolutely, contrary to faet. I,have notneinglo capitalist or largo I land owner in. the district 1 represent. Tho , same • statement might be made . by qttita • a j number of tho other members who sit aronnd ' i jne." :Tho.Opposition, pMty; did not look to tho f ntorttfs of any'class in partionlr. but. they ,- looked to the, interests of. the Wllblo ebtintry j i and th"ey. ; had on. every occasion done' their i ■' 'V l -, , 'uplift. tlie .' . masses. 1 I "If anyono knft# -to which' side of : <' the, House, the capitalistic side gives support i ) let him look-at the list of -Rtntlemen who used i j their capital lately for tlio purpose of pron- > ping up the Government organ in ,Wollingt6nr" i 1 Mr. .Laurciison asked'.tlie. Speaker if this • s was- ft jiereonal oiplnnatlori. ~ , , ' Tlie'Speaker rilled that Mr. MntHey had di- ' r groped eomewliat in his latter remarks. ■ v Mr. Russell said lie had had considerable' J political, experience, and ' he know nothiuir to ' -tanso .lum.-.ta-:'alter .'the: ttipinlbn- he - hiid exV presse' l , Tho.-dircctorato of-; Tub Doatmbn. i , which supports tho hon. gentleman, gives amnio t • proof ol every statement I have made."- (

Mr. 'Jfassey: I havo only to contradict the statement, and say' that it is absolutely, contrary to fact, and .unworthy of tho member who made it, ..„,.., : Mr. Russell said, as regards this "last remark, that he. was sorry lie' had trodden on Mr Mhssoy's t(>es. He ■ was soi-ry Mr. Massey bad allowed hie feelings to betray him into an expression which ho felt Sure he "would regret Whon ho ..was in. a cooler spirit. Ho was informed that .£50,000 had been supplied by .leading capitalists of New Zealand, which 21 a "\ vL ■, V ,B Bohtnion for three years, and that the whole .£50,000 was. expended before the three years Were lip, and they liad to put mbro *» 'V 0 koe P th 6. oapel-' going; ' Mr. Massey: I don't think' it is accessary for f£ tt <H ilric 4 I think that \<! ft"! o^' 1 ' it is worth. Mr, Alassey added that in the past.his party had Met statements like the one to which ho had objected with liughtor, but he meant to dontradict them for the future. "When -state. JJr??A f . bat kirt . d nro'iiiiido; lam going to Stand. tip iii hiy plate and put them'right! i don to-Hansardise this id-night,■ but here is a list.of the capitalists who have used their ■ moiiey .fefiehtly at tho' request of the Government for the purpose tif ; pronnimi uo %'IVeW, Zealand tomes'/'' ■ ? vla » "K ■Tho Prime Minister: We'vb got yours/ami will let you hate them whenever you like. '■ Mr. Lilko ask-6d at this stage if ho would be allowed to move tho adjournment.'•' ■■'•"■ The Prime! Minister': No. Wo must get oil With -our VvofK. ."■'.".-• MR. LUkE ON INDUSfRIfes. i, *?rj lAJKE/ then, commenced his speeoh on the Address-m-Roply.. Ho .complimented . tho Government in.regard to what they had done for .technical education. Eeplyihg to Mr/ BuiH sell s optimistic statemcntsi, ho said that from one ond of the colony to other other iron industry at tho present, tim 6 was experiencing a decline;.. Mr,, Russell had stated large sums that had .been invested in plants arid build-, ings.. .:Well; \hq .knew, that many of theso buildings were untenanted, as fat as tho workers tors coptsernedj "and I can assure von/' ho Added','' that moohinory is-standing, idle."- Tho Government should route themselves, and their officers to.do something fof. this industry. There ivere 300 extra workmen in factories dost yeari. and an increase of wages amounting to i£400,600. It might bo said that this -was an all-round Hsc,'but,ho: rilftintaihed that th e Government had not yet exercised any concern f6r tho employers, -He- was of Opinion that tho Govern-; ment could get. a gdod deal ofwork done in tho Dominion that they now imported. Bight through the Dominion) not' ohly the 'iron tradci but every othef trade Was depressed; arid if some; thing was riot 'done soon- they would; not bo able to'got their repairs done in: New. Zealand; He. believed the Government had recently sent to Germany for 40,000 brass pins which would dost them more than they could get'them madofot hero.. . '.'..,:.. ■ ,' •'■'■•..-' ; Mr. Massey:'Did yon say they sent to Germany? ;. -~'.'. "': .'•'■ .:•.■ , ..' ',"'■" Mr! Luke: Yes. ' . Mr. Poole: Shame! Mr. Luke, continuing; complained about the specifications for: oil engines wanted ■.by';, the' Government..'. Theso were 'made out in favour of the indent agents.'. It .was a' positive disgraCe'that'the young.irien'of this country, whd went; through.. tho .;technical schools''and ' the universities, .hod to go. ft way. to ..other. countries' to obtain work. He. referred to the Addingtori inquiry as the sorriest; exhibition' he had ever. seen.. ; '. - ',- .' , '-i ;■■'-., ■:' ; ' The: aajburriirieht wis' agreed to At. 12.20 a.m. on the motion; of 'Mr, Crnigie. .