THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 3, Issue 638, 15 October 1909, Page 5

THE HOUSE.

ADDRESS-IN.REPLY,

HON.;A, T. NQATA.ON.NATIVE LANDS, ' The House, sat at'2.3o-p.m.' ■■ ' Harbour Board ; Emjiowering Bill, (Mr. E V H. Taylor).and the IWnaH Agricultural: Society. Empowering Bill (Mr. Okey) >ere reada.first tune. ■ v The Ho ? ;A. T. NGATA resumed the debate on.the Address-in-Eeply. Speaking on the Native land question, 16 said an opportunity would soon be afforded, of discussing the whole of that question; 'Eeplying to what he'termed the "wilder" criticisms, of the Opposition, Mr. Ngata said that" the "actual cost of the Native Land Commission was ,£9576, and the expense , had' been fully justified. Valuable work had been done which would result not only in legislation,'but in the entiro settlement of the Native land question. ■ -. ■ .-'•. : . "•Mr. Massey: For the worse, I am . :'Mr. Ngata denied that. they, were in. the same position with regard to the Nativo lands as they,'were before.the commission was set up. The area recommended for European settlement was-not the sole.criterion of the value of-the commission. -." The of the also'.to be considered. Certain-areas were excluded, fromi.the scope of the commission's investigation,'but the lands investigated and covered by!'their':rieport amounted to 201,000 acres. The" result, would have been cheap at \£50,000. . .: : . . ,'• ,"',"'•

Mr, Massey,: Cheap to get it- settled. ■ • A'member:.lt is available now for settlement by Natives.' : ;,'. : . ':" ■ ■Mr. Ngata quoted, figures showing the areas recommended for .general, Native, and !European settlement by tho commission. Apart from those '■■ figures," he "stated; tho most remarkable effect of •the-commission's work was the newpoint qf.'yiew which it had caused to be taken up 'in . the .'Native mind. That' point iOf view "was-no longer . "Who. ■is the ■ owner'of; this land ?'■' but "Who shall use ihis land?"'.The-commission had everywhere ■insisted: that .'if tjie Natives would not use tho land/the Europeansniust have tho opportunity to use it. : The total increase, in the area of Native, lands leased to Europeans since the Conservative .Government went out of office was 0n1y>604,659 .acres,-as compared with 'the Us- - pbsal' of ,3J' million acres of freehold; From Mttrton to Taihape, with the excoptionof a fewblocks; it. was all European .land, and' the Native-blocks, were under ,occupation.; From Taihapo ■to . Waiouru, the . position was ■ th*e same. '■'■.' :'■ : ■ '■'.'' '■'. ■ ■.'•';.• ■;. . : '■Mr.'Massey.'Will you cause a return to bo' brought , down in regard to those lands?. : \ . Mr. .Ngata:-That is.not. my business; :.-Continuing,' Mr. Ngata stated that .thousands' tf aores in the TWaimaripo Ulock had been purchased from' the. Natives at '2s. 6d. an acre. That was'-'the unearned increment which they Had received from .-.the 'possession of the land since the •. arrival •of , the first canoes. More than half of the magnificent estate; of : 800,000'' acres formerly held by the Wanganui-.Natives had been .acquired by ihe Crown, and' there' was'.now.iless th'an. 160,000. acres which; could be said to be. under Native, occupation or lying' idle. ..-In the -Kin? Country there , nad been purchased by' : the ; Crowii or private. '.n----diyiduals. 954,622 awes, and outside: that' area. there.'were under occupation ■ or under, timber options 421,043 acres; \Where were those mil-; ■lions 'of lacres'df'which .'the., other' side jiad spoken? .''■■'■' ■'•■■-■'. ':' ■~.-.: '■ - ■ To state'that no Maori shonld lin , "V—i of the Native" Department ;was to go 'further than he'thought tne 'Icauur ui'uio Jyt>. ja.vu would ■go/j.rltLhad.been-.Baid'Athafe, the for Native. Affairs had had charge of Shaf Department'for. eighteen' years. The Minister for Native Affairs was' one-half Maori and pne-' half: Irish, and he- believed that the Irish belonged, to the* "Anglo-Saxon race'. They ."had had the , use "of half the hqn., gentleman as a-'i representative of the Maori people>;frbni 1888 !t0:1893..,J1n'..the latter year the good people of: Qisborne. elected.;him as .'member, 'and from-' 1893 to 1909, sixteen years, he had repre* sented the .'-European constituency—ono ■ of.■■ the ■most advanced in 'tho '.country—of ■ ■-. Poverty' Bay.''Anyslur that was, cast upon.the Native , Minister as .a. half-caste representing PovertyBay.'was a slur .'not-'personally' upon him, -;.euton the 'Europeans who had elected him toithe' House.: "There had always been at the'head' 'of ;the Native. Department -a member representing'a European constituency.' , ■ • • ■■■•'"

THE MEMBER FOR. CLUTHA. V ''■ Mr. MALCOLM (Clutha) 'said that, the South Island, members had lately 'awakened'to the' fact,.that they were-responsible,-as '.well.:as North Island, members, in. regard to tho Native land, question. .Whenever they asked fcir. a policy and "for active administration of Native affairs, they, were-given a speech. The country had come ;tp ''the;decision that there must'.be active administration in regard to this matter,- and for anyone-to suggest that they had hai.tha.t*in recent years■ was' verging on' the .ridiculous,''':lt affected' the whole country that lands should :be,-locked up,'as 'was/the'ease/. Mr.' Malcolm'went on to refer to opportunitieswh'icK'the ' Government -had- missed of obtaining' landsVfor closer settlement inOtago/ and; critioised ;reoent '.developments of.'.the education 'system;. and,' the Government's con-' the whole of that ;the'.'present/Administration, had been Jn ~d£6be,' M,ini3ters'.had"'been running up !aad; down' the country trying'to persuade the'- v people'that Codlin was-their-friend, not. Short.,- Se.complained,.ofHhe tendency of/the Government'i.supportets to', misrepresent .the Opposition;; members "by; saying, 'that, the Jatter./.weije'.- riqt , : in ..sympathy. , with ■Mγ!' Lloyd-. Gebrge's/;Budget.,/>He..-(thV-speaker) was .'a' , hearty ;and enthusiastic suppotter of the British Budget;''' The 'policy therein produced was the very one that, was urged by Mr. Massey in.a speech two.'years.ago.' ~, . .;■-. ■••.". ■'.•. "Mr. Mrtssey (laughing): They got it fromme,

.: OTHER SPEAKERS, ' '..Mr. W..D. S. MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty), whb-said that-he Represented perhaps . the largest. electorate in the, Dominion, .referred to the recent'.-depression,; which, ho submitted, was not -jlu'e to the. maladministration of the Government. >. He :■ also defended; the : '.Government's administration- of 'publio works. Mr. ANDERSON'plataural'regrettedthe absence of a Local Government Bill;fromthe Gov-' ernor's Speech. .< This was one.'-.of the most necessary. measures f that the House could have discussed. H6; : hoped., that ';a- 'comprehensive ,Locar Government Billiwould ibe . presented within .the. next'fow. years, -which s would: put on a- proper, basis. • The present' county. ;diyisio'ns'were qubof,date in view:of the in-' crease and movement of population since they' were formed in 1886. Mr. Anderson spoke-in favour of .the freehold tenure and of closer settlement; and'defended his association with a meeting, in .support of the leasehold held', in Chfistchurch in-1890.:, He .had learned a great deal in twenty years. .. .. :.',.■:' . Hβ said the co-operative system was.very fine in theory, but it did not have the good effects .that were'anticipated. Hβ was satisfied that if the vWaikaka'. railway had been constructed by'.contraot.some thousands could have been saved. ' ' .' ,-'• -.'.'. ; '.'■•: .'...■■■ ■ ,'.. ,

• 'SPEECH BY THE'PRIME MINISTER. The PEIStE MINISTER said it was his duty to clear up spme of the matters'< which had been, brought up danne the , debate. To any impartial.peKon he w ; ould-be able to show that numbers of misrepresentations had been made. The. charges whioh Itr. Allen had made'were the most-wilful misrepresentations ,and' he had never heard anything to equal it. Some public men had made statements which eyen.if they- were not,intended to'/hava such an effect had had a bad effect on the Dblninipn.'. So. .damaging were. : ■ some of : tho: statements ' that' had' been', made that' well-known" gentlemen had -'condemned the ■ press, in .which- they apWhat were.some of Hhe' statements ■to'which he.(the speaker) was referring? Mr. Massoyihad Baid .that if the electors did not feel inclined to put on the' brake> it-would be a good -tiling if .did, ..Then again, Ifr, Duthio had.'.in 1908, stated that .the Government -was borrowing, four millions per ■ year.. What had- appeared in the- Sydney, "Bulletin' , ?. In the : cour6« o f ilarticle, it' had' stated that it looked as ■ if the .bottom were dropping lout'of Maoriland. : He' would-also, like! to point put-that Mr. Allen himself had' declared. that;ifvtho 6nancial posi'.tion'.of the Dominion broke down New Zeajland was:bound-to makevdefauU. .Other'statc"ments had been oireulated.-.to -the-effect that :the'< DoniintonMvasion, the .verge , of bank--■rflp'tty;'<-''-'.-'--i'','-'-■■.■■" : '.-:.;■: ' ■ ■.'fr-i'. '■•■: '

Mr. Massey:- Who did it?. Joseph went on to say that tho organ of the peoplo to whom he was referring had written that tho country was hard up. Mr. Massey: So you are. . ' ' •" Sir Joseph (continuing) said tho journal in rquostion attributed tho thto of affairs, ivhich they alleged, existed to the deliberate follv of the Government. The Government hud never been in difficulties connected with its payments and wore ablo to lend the settlers ; .£1,970,000 lost year. With respect to Jlr. Allen's statements ho would like farther to point out that some months before the member for Bruce declared that the , country was- approaching bankruptcy (Mr. Allen: Use .my exact words!) he had complimented him' on the.state of tho finances. A wrong system had'been pursued by the Opposition—one calculated to destroy the best interests of the country—for the purpose of trying to gam political ascendancy, '. ■Further.Reply, to.Mr.-'Allen. '.'. . ■ Mr. Allen had reform! to the dirforeiicc in thewenue this year and last year. Tf he wanted ti b? fair, Mr. Allen Aould have stated that remissions of taxation totalling ■■SiCWOO took place within the year. The amount which the Government borrowed in the Dominion last year was only which was unsolicited. Then again Mr. Allen had said that of the money of the poor in the savings banks had been, scooped up- by the 'Government' to the detriment of the- people. Included in. the , in question was .£IOO,OOO of Treasury. -.Bills :.which. were paid. off. on'Maroh 31; .£200,000 was'authorised-for tho election-|.f buildings for the Post and Telegraph Department; .6250,000 was used for loans to local bodies to enable them' to carry on the^works; and .£IBO,OOO was used for givin' to advances to at an unaltered rate when'usurers were moving heaven andearth to increase the rates of'interest., When everything' was taken into oonsideration-theremarks made' by the journal here which-wai createdfor political purposes and used-for political purposes, l and the quotations which ho had given from: the remarks of several politicians—it was not to be wondered at that people outside the Dominion came to-the erroneous conclusion that the couiitry was in a bad way. Some of'tho Oppositionists could only be described as vul-tures-so far as their efforts to'-get money for works in - their, districts were.concerned. Was it not a fact that Mr. Allen had said that whilst was there he was going to havo some of it? He wished to refer, to the Law-rence-Roxburgh line, which had been suDporb'd by Mr. Allen. If was well known that much of the small quantity of goods which would .pass over'tho line would go past Dunedin, yet Mr. Allen wanted the line - to~ get the credit tor the whole of the revenue, in order to trv and show a.bogus return. He (Sir Joseph') had never, either in the Cabinet or out of.it supported the line, which he' thought' was an improper one. Then' there was the Midland liailwav. which- was a legaoy to the GovernAllen say about that? What, had the Canterbury members to sav in .regard ■ to it? v ■'

■Mr.': Rhodes: I was always against it. Sir .Joseph (proceeding)' said . the Government had no option but to complete the'line. Would the Canterbury members save the country from the : disaster of having tpV complete it"? Sir Joseph read a statement made by Mr. John Duthio, 'a very sensible man," after his return from Australia,, to the-effect that far too-.much'was made of the depression" by: ourselves, and that-the newspapers were responsible to a large extent for it. ' Sir Joseph-said that when .he was in Sydney, one of the lead'S? "S* n , °*, ttat . citT > dom S business with New Zealand, questioned him as to the stability, of one of the .strongest commercial, houses' ' in ' Wellington. This mnn stated^that ..reports.reaching Sydney indicated that this country was approaching bankruptcy, and that people were fleeing away from it by the thousand.: . ■ ...

State of Finances,

bir. Joseph then made'a statement in regard to the finances as follows:—On April 1 last the tovernment brought, forward in ordinary revenue.account a balanco'of The receipts from.revenue, etc.,'for six months were .£3,865,882, giving a total of dE4,049,703. ; The expenditure tor six months was leav-ing-a balance on September 30 0f'JE59,380. 'The revenue for six months totalled .£3,798,238, to which.should be added £Sl,\U . derived from residue of the national endowment revenue account,:ietc, makiiig. a total of \£3,865,382, as stated above. Leaving out for the sake of comparison ,the national, endowment revenue,: as ' none was' credited last year, the revonuo was ,£31,402 less than for the corresponding six .months of 1908, wnen the total revenue from 'all.sources wa5.A829,640. T.hc expenditure of the ordinary revenue account for; the six' months ending'Sep'tember ; :3oVl9o9,-was £3,990,323, as against "expended during the' corresponding six months of last year,' or a decrease of .£11,781. In answer to-an interjecition,.the Prime Minister stated, tliat all of'this was' Consolidated : Pund. i. He- would givo' tho, fig.ures for the Public. Works Fund. The available'balance: on' September 30, 1909, was £526,719, and the principal; items of •expenditure ' were as follow:—Railways ,£403,503;, : Public . Works, .£136,440; ' roads, £250,251; telegraph extensions, -.£50,090. 'The amount expended ori roads was .£92,900 more than that of last yeaT during the corresponding period. As regards the acquisition of'lands for settlement, the cash available for that purpose 1 at date was .£280,000. ■■ On September 80 lost the cash balance at credit to government accounts in the Bank of New Zealand, in New ;Zealand, was : iE1,1C5,140. Such , was the -position of the Government account here on the day of. his return to New Zealand. This, of course, was exclusive of the'balance: on tho London account, wiich on September .30 was a ' little,,over one million, let attempts had been niude to cast' doubts on- a position which,they ;ought to be proud of.' As regards the.:jl!sop,OOP, .which was paid to have been all mopped up.. ■_ He told the House,, and when the.returns were before the House they wouldbear him out,-that the Government bad hot Set used .£1 of the ,£500,000 , that had como ere for the . Advances to Settlers Department. They had erred on the side of caution, and of safely.ibecause they know tho sort of criticism that, would be made. ..Sir Joseph referred to Mr. "Allen's statement in regard to the Otira tunnel'.contract. .':The contract,,he said, was entered into for five years, and what the member for 'Eruce was asking the Government to do was, in'reality, to borrow the whole of tho money at the". beginning. of the conftact, so that the payment might be made'in full at the'end of-the five years. It was an unheardof thing, a suggestion that would not be'acted upon anywhere,, . •'■. ■ ; . As regards the increases in connection*with the; he would like to' point ■ out that they included some .£BO,OOO increase in interest (a'great portion of which was repaid indirectly), '.£160,000 for railways' '(and the revenue in regard to railways had increased at a/greateivrate), ,£13,000 to :-i16,000. for; .education which could not be.stopped unless the'"present system was dropped), and .£90,000 in the postal service (which" would con-' tinue to grow, :ae the'Dominion-progressed). When critics talked.abput the increase in tho Consolidated, F)ind,' they . should be ' fair. The Government's Borrowing. ■ vV , ; Then there- iwa's ■: all; the. talk. about , ' capital having been driven out Of the Dominion, and the amounts which had been borrowed from the A.M.P. Society. • He believed that all the members of the A.M;P. Society were members of the Opposition party;- the chairman of directors was an out-and-outrmember of the Opposition.. The (Society had the 'funds at its disposal of all classes in New Zealand, and the majonty ; of the people.insured,in it belonged to the. Liberal party. The Government had never' introduced politics,-into 'its affairs yet it-was now declared , that they.were scooping from the. society money which would bo lent to the people;in this country.-if the country was not borrowing it. Hansard, No. 143 Tfould- , snow in detail that the.whole of the none of which was ;bbrrowed during the.present financial year, was paid out of the society's funds in Sydney, and notont of its New Zealand funds at all.. The statements that had been made,amounted to saying that the-Government had.collared the directors of the society, the chairman; everybody, and said to them: 'Ton have got .£225,000 here. Whatever you.want to do with it in any other way we are determined to have it." • The Auckland Savings Bank had applied some years ago for a portion of their stock, in order to have giltedged'stock; all. these institution's were very glad to do the same, and how could it be suggested that • the Government were doing something ihey ought not to do in connection : with.the A.M.P: Society?, . •■';'■ ... . .■.

Driving Away Money. ~ '".'.(' : With regard to driving money out'of the' country, he had-heard that statement made till he was getting sick and tired of the political hypercritical gibberish of it. Soirio of the people who made that statement would cause them to do what thoy had caused to-be , done' y« a f s :fS° m NeW:Zealand, to:take the-bit.in their teeth and' say that if, they. were, realty doing - the things - they were suggesting on behalf; of some of : their, friends they, (the Government) could do it, and he- believed do it with effect, and in., the' iriterestn of .tho: people,as. a whole, -Sir Joseph, referred to £ Uie;,.Hautuna. Estate; :which -ho said had cost-the. owner 10s. id. per acre, and for which the' Government paid Xsßs.' : an acre. (A membor: ''Who-made ..the value' of it?")': A trunk railway passing:'through a.portion of the estAte and-other public expenditure made its value;' Some-df ; the' iteople- who" had reaped' benefits - of- that ; kiud . had been the first to take: money-out of'this country and' invej't'it in-another ; country, ■■Wher«'h»d'capital-gone

to from America.and. England?: 'Perhaps it had.gone to. Queenslarid,."to be invested alongside the carefully, .deposited increments from r<ew-Zealand..The Government didjiot receive even a modicum of fair play in this regard. Land Question To Bβ Settled, ' Public ■ records in Wellington "during the last month or two showed that the member for i\\ airarapa had been . urging ■' the Government to buy a large estate in his electorate, /ho , property would have benefited one man. ( i\o, no. ) How many people would have gone on to it if the Government had accepted any recommendation the Land Pnf chase Board might make? Probably half a dozen. (Oh! oh!) On a grazing run! The hon. gentleman had recommended a grazing , run! The Government were not buying grazing runs to allow them to be cut up to make smaller grazing • runs in this country. Mr. j Massey: Yon have' done worse. "Continuing, Sir Joseph said that the Government, would this session have tbe whole question' of the land threshed out and settled, and among other things he wanted to predict thjs, that the country would not go on purchasing estates from some of those large ■ landed proprietors at the enormously increased prices put on them, paying e. price which meant in eome cases a- rental of 40s. to 58s. for the poor unfortunate men who went on to them. The Government were'not going to allow the policy of closer settlement to be used by' any of those big landowners ,■ so that" they should receive .a price- that, meant ruination, if. it went on, to the unfortunate .settlers , who would'go on to the lands purchased. Hβ believed by the time- the Government's proposals were carried through this session. ■ thej would, establish a system by which men of small means would get on to smaller areas of land, both in the'country and near the towns, without being subject to the present drawbacks. .":

Mr. Allen. (in the course of a personal explanation) pointed out that'the Prime Ifmister had misrepresented him. What: he had said'was'the country, would make default if it could not malie payment in connection with the Midland railway.".He had always held that the Government, should pass a loan in respect of the undertaking..,... Sir Joseph: If I said you used the word "bankruptcy". I withdraw it. x Sir. Massey quoted the whole of the;. context in connection with the extract which. Sir Joseph had quoted from one of his speeches. It showed that he was ; drawing .attention to the . large amount of borrowing which he was contending seemed to be in prospect, "And,".he added, "how much-did the Government borrow last year? • Why, over four and a half millions!" MR. T.E. TAYLOR. ; ■ : Mr. T. E. TAYLOK (Christchurch North) congratulated the Prime Minister on having made a more important statement, in : one sentence than he could find in the whole of the Governor's Speech. He referred to the statement that the land question was going to be threshed out in all its bearings, and settled. If tho Prime Minister'would settle that question he would deserve more than any previous Prime Minister. The very spirit of the raven in Edgar Allan Poe's' poem -was in the average speech of • Mr.-Allen, and he wondered'how he had the .courage: to remain in this country. He believed' that Mr, Allen had a thorough grip of finance, but' if everything had been true that he had alleged during his political career it would be a wonder if he or. any ef his. friends were still in this country. The Opposition members were as hungry for money for public works as were the; Government members; the pity was that the Government had for years been trying to do work that ought to devolve entirely upon local governing bodies. The Prime Minister's'arrangement to get,.nioney for .these.bodies at a low iate ofinterest'was ho doubt a good thing, but a comprehensive measure for local governing bodies' reform, which .would give local bodiestho conv trol of works would have been 'of greater value, and would result in a" tremendous saving of expenditure to the country. Mr. Taylor defended, Mr. Fowlds for suppressing, his singletax views, while:he was a ..member of the Cabinet. If the claim of the Crown tenants to the freehold was a - just claim,, it , ought to extend also to the . lessees .of-, lands belonging to the harbour, boards, educa-' tion boards, and 'other 'institutions. The 999 yeara' tenure could go as far as ho was concerned on terms—it was a ridiculous tenure— and he. thought the proper thing was that the man. who held it and wished to get rid of-it should.be.paid right out for his improvements, and that the State'should repossess itself of the land. He was quite willing to let the whole of the present Crown lands become freehold if, the Opposition would agree to a land tax on land values equal to the annual rental of the whole of tho land they wanted to make freehold. He know of nobody who proposed'.to rob a.mnn'of ony.land title that had been legitimately acquired in New Zealand, but there'was'-a .multitude Zealand , who would strongly oppose the further alienation of a single acre of Crown land.- < He held that the .land question should-bo submitted to the electors) that the idle Native lands should be settled; and that the referendum system should be adopted, and that the Government should go in for constitutional reform.

THE FINANCIAL POSITION - CAST YEAR. Mr. FBASER (Wakatipii) agreed with ■ Mr. Taylor that the' importance of the land question could not be' over-estimated. He would defer consideration on the point until the proposed Bill was-brought down. The Prime Minister had: complained that Oppositionists had traduced;:the;financial credit of the Dominion, but although ho had taken a note'of his remarks "he ■' did not know ' what there was to reply to. He ■ contended that money which was required for public works should be raised outside the Dominion. To say that the Advances to Settlers' Office was not hard up last winter was simply ludicrous. Why,, at'-one time, bver ,£BOO,OOO was. promised by the ■ Departriient, and the applicants could not get their loans. ':■.-.. . - .. Sir Joseph: AVe lent up to the. limit we had fixed for the year. .••-.■•'.

Mr. Fraser: Then you had no right to promise • the money to them.. The member for Wakatipu; (continuing) slid it was the duty of a public man, if he knew there was danger ahead, to warn the people. Sir Joseph had no right to s^ , the country had not.been in monetary difficulties. Did he think the members were children and the electors fools? No member of the Opposition had said as much as some of the Ministers. Dealing with'the remissions in duties, referred to by Sir Joseph, he would ask who had gained .by ..the remission on sugar of duty amounting t0...£200,000. : Not the small consumer, he .would reply. Sir Joseph had accused the Opposition in connection, with the extravagance that had taken : place, but he would ask what could 15 or 16 Oppositionists do against' CO members? .' Before, the House was asked to discuss another' Loan Bill, it should bo in possession of the latest financial return. .... . ..-.

-Sir. Joseph: It is before the Audit Department now. ' ■■■ " ■••'-.. MR.. REED'S REMARKS. Mr. EEED (Bay of • Islands) said he was ■ a firm believer in the optional tenure, and would judge from remarks which had fallen from Mr. T. B. Taylor that that member had only seen the farmers at work from tho- railway line. Speaking on the defence question, Mr. Reedeaid he thought that the compulsory training of school children between the ages of eight and sixteen years would be a popular proceeding, and he had no doubt'that it would be beneficial. If children were trained at that ,age'they would never forget the instruction, and they would not consider it a hardship later if they ware, called upon, between the. ages of eighteen and twenty-one, to go in for compulsory training .for a month or so every year. If compulsory training for the later age were enforced now it would be unpopular, but compulsory training for children in the first place would form a natural preparation. ■ The administration-of. Native lands had.not been satisfactory, and considerable ■• amendments would be required to bring it to a state'of efficiency. The policy had not been satisfactory even to the Maoris themselves. . . -

The debate was adjourned at 11.80 p.m. until this afternoon. . ' .' : '-