LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION.

Dominion, Volume 2, Issue 528, 8 June 1909, Page 4

LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION.

REPLY TO THE PRIME MINISTER.

THE COUNTRY'S BUSINESS SHOULD

PROCEED. Tho Leader of the Opposition (Mr. W. F. ' Massey). resumed the discussion at 7.30 p.m. Ho said ho would spenk more briefly, and bo hoped moro pointedly, than thp Premier. , He was glad the mooting was being reported by Hansard, because tho utmost publicity should be given to the proceedings, but tho meeting should not be identified with an ordinary niceting of Parliament. It was not a meeting of Parliament, but of members of Parliament, convened by tho Primo Minister, and members were tho'ro, in the first place, out of courtesy to tho Im. '. porial Government, and secondly out of courtesy to the Prime Minister." Ho hoped there would bo no 'attempt later on to validate tho proceedings by Parliament, because ''• he held tMt what was done at that meeting was not binding on Parliament or on ooj ' member. . . No Occasion for Hysteria. '. v Tho Primo Minister seemed to suggcet that ' there was a tendency on the part of those who did not agree with him to underrate tho importance of the conference. Speaking for himself and those around him, they did not underrate it in the slightest. (Hear, hoar, from _many Oppositionists.) They all know that important oyeuts had occurred oflato m European politics, making it necessary for Britain and her self-governing colonies to recast their naval policy. Ho saw no occasion for heroics or hysterical displays, which wore all Tory, well in times of peace, but of very httle use "when tho guns began to shoot." : Hurt, was the time wo had to prepare for ond not only.to defend our own country, but to assist the Empire to maintain its sunrom. acy. Defenceless New Zealand: The Prime Minister had a lot to say about the defence policy or tub uoveniment, but ho (Mr. Massey) would ask any member of the Houso to say what was tho defence policy of this country. (Hear, hear.)- Did anyone ■ know what it was? Had the Government any deionce policy? He challenged the Primo Minister to toll them. Ho (Mr. Mas. sey) did not know, though bo had been a, member of five Parliaments; There was no country in the British Dominions which expended so much on defence nnd had so. littie to shew for it. No other country was m such an absolutely defenceless condition. It was no use mincing matters. They must got down to bed rock, and face-the position It would bo one of itlie duties of the session to put New Zealand in a state of defence, which, as Lord Rosebery had said, was tho % best wayv for any colony to assist in the defence of the Empire. Ho hoped they would be able to do.that, and that when the noxt war-cloud came,, they wuuid be able to do .somothing bettor for. the Empire and themselves than offer Dreadnoughts, for which they would have to ask Britain for money to. pay.for them. Thp people wore : loyal,, and wero ready to make, any sacrifice of men or money, 'as .they had done before,, but _tl;oy asked for a strong and intelligent head in defence matters. \ The Points at Issuo. The Primo Minister in his speech had wandered all round the subject, but the real issues wero two. The first was: Was the Fnrao Minister to go Homo to represent New Zealand at the Defence Conference? ■ He took for granted that they &b reproßon. tatives of the people were all of the opinion that Now Zealand should bo properly and adequately represented at tho conference, v IAPP'P 5 ?-). The Prime Minister, feeling that ho had a majority of tho members behind him, had evidently made up his min* to go Home.'. Personally, he wonld have liked to see him m his place in the House, and do somo plain talking to" him on the sins and shortcomings of tie Government Howoyor, ho was willing to give up that pleasure, and lot tho Prime Minister go and represent Now, Zealand-(Hear, hear)-«nd " the Opposition-would not have the very slightest objection to his doing so '

'-.. v Not Analogous. ..,,',. The position was not analogous with the unique, position which aroso in 1897, the occasion, tho Diamond Jubiloo of onVof Hie wisest. Sovoreigne who ever ruled tho Empire The latelfr; Seddon was sent to represent New Zealand at thoso celebratione, and ho (Mr. Massey) 1 believed that ho represented it well. But was the position tinsame then as it was ■ now ? In 1897- the oountry was prosperous, ond money and omnlov. Mont, .were plentiful. . Ho .wished ha could j say that that was the case at 'the proseni , time; but ho was sorry that ho could not do so. • Ho supported sending Mr.' Seddon Home on that occasion, and if tlioro was as good reason again ho would support tho re-' presentation of Now Zealand again In spite, .or tho fact, that Mr. Seddon wont Homo,, tho business of. the countrv-was proceeded with. (Hear, hears.) Although precedents had been quoted, tho balance of precedents was'against the Prime Minister,. Mr. Masaoy went on to say that in the time of Sir Edward- Stafford in 1875-76, whoa' questions of the greatest importanco were bafore the country, including tho question of the abolition of tho provinces, Sir Edward Stafford went Homo for' some months, and the business of. the country went on as usual, and vory\properly so. "Coming later down, Sir Julius Vogol wont Homo not to represent this country, but on the- financialbusiness of the country, and a session was held in his absence. There was not a single suggestion at that time that the business of Parliament should stand over. Then again; in 1902, when an Imperial Defence Conference wae ; held, Mr. Seddon went Homo to represent New Zealand, but loft his first lieutenant in' charge, and who would say that tho-business'of tho country was not carried on as well as ever? Subsequent to that session the Speaker, who was a man of longer experience than any other man in tho country, said that tho business of that' session bad been conducted nioro satisfactory ■ fly,than any previous session in his long ox- • perience—forty years or more. Was there any reason why a session should not bo held without tho presence of tho Prime- MinistorP "Tho Only Man." ' Mr. Massdy went on to say that Sir Joseph > Ward had said, if not in so many words, .that he. was going Homo to the conference, and by so doing iu effect that ho was the only man in New Zealand.'fitted to represent, New Zealand at it. Then following that up Sir Joseph in effect said that tho session must not proceed as usual. What Sir Joseph said was in effect that there was not a smglo other member of tho'Ministry who could: bo left in charge—that none of Ms colleagues was fit to take his position for the time, being, What a compliment to his colleagues I What a compliment to his senior colleague, Mr. Carroll I' What a compliment to the next in seniority, Mr. Millar I And what a compliment to his junior colleague, Mr. T, Mackenzie 1 (Laughter.) A Voico: Ho is all right. ■ Mr.. Massey: Oh, yes, ho looks perfectly, happy; more so than for ten years. Mr.' Mausey pointed out ■that . Sir Joseph had asked that tho matter should lo placed above party. , Then why. did he not let tho business of tho country go on? Tho answer was bocause he could not trust Ms party, ■ Si* Joseph Ward was really attempting to-place •party interest above- tho interests of Imperialism, about which so much had been said that day. . < ' . "No Man is Indispensable." I Ho (Mr. Mnssey) would like to remind tho Prime Minister of a saying of one of his colleagues. lt_ would bo remembered that •during last session tho quostion of the pending loss to- Now Zealand of bworal officers of the _' Agricultural Department was mentioned. The llion Minister for Agriculture on tho occasion "sod this expression: "No man i.- iiulieponsablo." Tho fact was tlinf if, 'sny, half-', n-dozcii of tho most prominent mom--bors of Parliament went away, tho. bliMiiosa ' of tho country would be just as well conducted, and'as well looked after, as at present. There was also tho question of tho expense and inconvenience of n second session of Parliament. Under ordinary circumstances, the Public Works Statement and Kstimatcs wvire brought down so late that all tlio money voted was not expended, Hβ

■:■ would appeal to. the backblocks members ifthat were not a fact. On ono occasion, the estimates?had not,: been brought down until ; December,' and thon camo tho holidays and , the;result'was; that the authorities were: not issued until February, or -later. ' With rc--gard to the Dreadnought offer, he thought : ; it was asido issue, arid ho. preferred not to .discuss • it at that ; time.. : There were, how-, ever, one- or , two'.points which he simply ~could..not/overlook; ...-:, . -..: ■■-. ;■■...". .-. ; p: ;' A Loyalist and:lmperialist. : : Personally he was as much a loyalist, and ".'. sii'lniperialist : as'anybody;.and his past actions would justify that claim: If there was any crisis.which would justify the expenditure of four millions, ■Parliament 1 should, he held, have been .convened. He was prepared to take the consequences of the opinion .which ,he. was expressing. -'He knew that ;there' were some men-who'sat around' him ;'.-'.who did not hold exactly the same opinion on, the/subject /as he did, : but ho could say ■ thoy:wero'!all anxious to do as much as they could'for the Empire to which they belonged. There were thousands in this opinion—and he was of that opinion—that it would have -been putting the interests of Empire before ■-family'interests, kindred, selfrinterest, and :the ■'.poasession 'of .'everything else that ! -man /hcW- dear, the" proper thing -■'would■■;>.. have .;been '.:.to ■. have convened ."'-■'Parliament- 1 - and lot members say what form the assistance should in . :.tho'.shape of "battleships;.or by way- of permanent subsidy.: The party of which ho was leader was not numerically so large as the Government party; butvits members repre;,sented half tne inhabitants'of the country. If - tho Prime. Minister- had: wished ••to place' ..the-question above party, it was. his duty to-have consulted the leader of the Opposition. (Hear, hear.): ■ If he had been consulted, ■ he iwould lave.been only, too willing tohaye given vhird. every .'assistance. ; . "Attempt .to Score off] His Own Bat." ;■'■ Instead of'adopting that, course the Prime had attempted to score off his,own ••■■ bat,^and-hO; would-giveNhim all the creditwhich he achieved for his.pains. Another im- ■:■ portant matter -'which should come up- for consideration during'; the next session was the .position in", which the Public Service was , situated. (Hear, hear.) Then there; was the - ; question' of ;-financer-of providing ways and :. means.in connectionwith public-work's.-; Fur- :., tiler, there' was another, matter—and -it was :'the:first time in bis career that he^had:had ■to raise. would-have to- be..con- . eidered, viz.; the, question, of unemployment.' , Another .burning•■'question -was ,that, which involved : Native lands'. Thpse: were only a , 'fe'w-'.'of the: , , questions'- which:. Parliament •- ehould' at once ,;bave the' opportunity of dis- -.;•■' cussing.:-. There were -many people; through- , dut'-the country, and. ho/ivas qne'pf 'them, wfio'we're intensely annoyed and'disappointed -.-.. at;;the suggestion that -. the business: of : the :. country_!' Bnpuld /.postponed for- three, months;' in order to enable! the Prime-Minis-'; ■Vter-to;attend the conference'.■ He would like; : to /make, th6:position ; .of; himself "and his -;' ,-p'arty clear) :for it had" riot been fairly' stated in the Minieterial organs, which fact, however, did riot worry' him.v (Laughter.) Their, 'position; was'this: They all wished New, Zea- : la_rid<to bo;rcpreserited, and'they were quite willing that it should be represented by its . Prime iMinister. ; Mr,'Massey quoted the in- , vitation forwarded :by Mr.; Asquith. to Hie ■ 'Australian Goyernment,' remarking. amidst , : -. merriment ;fba.t ho, did not believe; in quota- ' tions except they were made to prove a point., -.' Mr. , Asquithjihad/ -he said, begun by, saying, tbat.the.'prop<>sed.cpriference,was.a'subsidiary . conference,: add ..had-' proceeded, to say that ' he^assiimed 'ibit- as ,the'consultetion -would-be,generally-iipon technical or quasi-technical naval ; -'and; niilitary - matters,; tnat the -other Governments of the self-governing Dominions, ; would;elcot.to'be'represerited , , as- in.the. casei .; of;Oanada', ; by;.their Minister'for Defence,.or. . fatlirig'them, by some, other member ;of. the .. Government,: assisted by an expert to advise,.. '.'■ but'!. ! itVira» entirely ,for,;the .Government., of Australia to,decide ..the.; precise form,, of its :'■-. .Mr; Massej-',.went,on,,-to. say: .that; the' seeing- he was Defence Minister,',should-go, but,not as Prime ;■', Minister.';';;; ';.-Y:'-'•;'£;' ':. ■~■ ',,;.: - ,; . ..-.-./,; :: _- .'■■■[ : -Vx ; d\ -Business must;Co : O^«q : ■'-:,- : In .let hiin go! he added. But the business of the -Dominion must go on, in the', meantime/'^'Speaking" for himself, he '.would was the-first: duty of. every country .-, '.belonging:;; ~,-to v the ', '• Empire. ■:,- to. '". cbri- .-. to .the! maintenance of the Imperial . Navy, -in .'accordance with, its'population and the position' vjhidh it held.:. New Zealand ■was, he felt sure, , prepared to, do it 3 duty; yesj-even* more than its duty .Then there S' as of■ local , defence, which ,New, . /oaland-Ti'ould. have to 'put' in 'a 'proper condition, ;orelse; asLord Bercsford had said, "it- : would nqt.be doing ite duty.:' Some years ago the Cape.,had ;presented-.a battleship "to tho Impenal -.Goveramenfc";-' It. wouldh'ave been -, hotter to have'coriie.to-sonie arrangement for ■ the.rjaymentof i'apermanerit and.proper sub; sidy.' , -A'vessel , , became Obsolete.in a few .Vyears," but■ tbo'riayment went on. ; Owine to' the presentation ofthe vessel .a difficulty had ...; hevuriderptood;farisen' witn• regard to : tne -, ; making,'.--.0f;.; /arrangements, for , ; the pay■w---- °L *y--V r 'subsidy' ; :to.' the Nayyr; There -should ,be : a." sinking-fund ■|"j of a.battleship to t off-the capital expenditure, lt-it-were at: the _rate of i ! ipcr'cent:"it would take^between: fqrty-andvfifty years—-■'.-' '•■ '•"'■• o. Sir': JosephV At" three 'per cent. : '' ' ; - '' ' ■ repI ' ea -- that ' he -should 'say ■ about forty-four years.; ..Thelifo' of.: a battle- . ship was,;,he- continued, ".not forty years-or .twenty years/but; years.' What S , "^ M f^ inkizi S ; fund .which' would fund to; P ayit off in ■^? I J i V' M assey;-saidVthoy Prinio the House on his.proposal.- , ' . : ■'■-•■ ; rt£L? ! $ 0T % * sk : * ho 'Vernier wliether |he dispatch— ?■ ■ .V ■ - , :., :T|>e.Prime:Ministcr: : l',may- say I am ; not : thS i t»: h a T M He explained that he had madd a very, full statement of it,T >' P f' r" d ' ,acl *?«" not t0 introSuco any party feeling ;mto. the;discussion. :*.-. ; - ■: ;;;<'.;-';':;()THE|^SPEECHESr- ; -:- , A ''.- : : : " : ' : 'y;\% ' ' ;M'R./ tVtIM. i :.■['. ''/ -MrVl'TaylorisaidW tliought:there had been ■•■ an. unnecessary amount of feeling displayed at times m. the speeches; of; both the P?f n , o ■-■■ Sγ^- an *M^: °f'the OpposiE ; "'+wV, lmo,Jl,n,ste '>had-distinctly told them ' ■■"■ : -SSS J h ° ..offer,, which'.would - come ; upibef ore /Parliament in the ordinary ;•. coarse of;oyents;aiid.that the opinionsS ; members would . probably, find expression on '-■-the.;main question (later on. In those w no;, necessity fc a feel,n g .V.What he was-about to purely legitimato question. The ■: W:Master, had .stated thati the dispatch prom sed, by Lord .;Crcwe: in. regard- to tho : .Dreadnoilgh^ofter- had,not turned up. That 1 struck, him., as home - very, remarkable, -for ■■.■:'S^M.*™f. h af'»lni'sod : to. permit : of'that dispatch ■reaching New;-Zealand, -and ho -to ,asl-: ~ whether,or. not' the': British ■■■ oS"r nt that that dis- , p<itcu,ivas missing, e ■ : •....; ■ , ;'■ ; v ; ■■. -.^-y .-■;• Secret, ■'- \ .''■':' • must if°^4 t * h^: '^ e I?rimo -^Minister ■ S the t nr tll. S '. OU,(1 , not bo ,nado kno ™ snn-iL w 4i b " t ' ; *7 had not had a single forSr P t B rf) °Ic,1 c, l ot the conference callei) "SS "I I'T I, '" 1,0 Minister, admitted thSt thW h T- cl ',<lis P!l toho3,,' a nd should Z I^^ r ° T fc . c i'°'"S to have them. ;, "l ■ those.eoncealed t hat.theautfor > ( >f:th^s t tvi?S '■» J*!* thaf,tlii» was' not; to be " . ;■ rrcmiers' Conference; but a sub-sitlinrT ™, .iorence, f :*Z Minister, for Defence ishould go. Mr -Asoiiitli .% ■™f t . l f f, or tli? r New,.Zealand. Cowroinont (and.tho Australian government) to deter- '•": n - e YhS l H "- c, Vi r ?P tCT of; tbe representa- " Ho, .tvas -sure .: tlmt ihov oU f ?' ; to ' fcj ve -' ,,ad - tl'o' wholo of :■ the' ■ dis-' Batches, lhero was another feature of tho

discussion which struck him as almost •ludicrous. They wero told that Parliament must, determine who should go to this conference. It was very comforting to know that theroworo some things which Parliament had tho right to decide. Parliament had been completely ignored when tho country was '''committal- to an .expenditure of from two to four millions, but the entire Parliament, must assemble to consider the minor matter of who'should represent the colony at a subsidiary and purely consultative conforenco on technical and quasi-technical sub-, jects in connection with ■ defence Tho. mcro appointment of a delegate was.an absolutely, trivial affair. The Government had power to mako all appointments, and it should have, dealt with: this matter without calling any conferonco at all. . ..''. Tlia. Famous Telegram. : He wanted to know, further, why the tele-gram-to the editors was marked strictly private and confidential. "Until I said I had this-telegram there was not a word said by tho Premier to-day to suggost that he had any information to justify the Dreadnought offer.other than what'had been disclosed, but assoon as this telegram was mentioned the Premier said there was, one very grave matter of which ho did not give information that justified the -offer. ■ ■ I will undertake to. say that there was no evidence in the possession of the Government when the off or of the Dreadnought was made .that had not been published in tho ordinary newspaper columns of this country." As : against tho Premier's citations o< British authorities to show the urgency of the present crisis, Mr. Taylor quoted Mr. Asquith's; protelt ajjiinst "an absurd and unpatriotic representation of the naval position. The Australian Government had received no communication from the Imperial authorities before the New Zealand Government made its offer. All they had to go "upon waa the public newspaper cables, and if the Imperial Government had taken the Now Zealand Government info its special confidence it had done a very remarkable thing. . . l ' Text of the Editors' .Telegram.. As regards the telegram to editors, ha asked why it should have been sent to them, and .not to members of. Parliament. "I qlaim that this telegram contained one statement which was about as far from the truth as a statement could be. It seems to me that there .was a deeire that the; nature of this communication to tlie editors snould not be made,public. Tliere can be no doubt that the terms in'which it was.couched led to-a' large number of papers endorsing tho Dreadnought offer that Would otherwise have been very critical. Bnt for the terms of tho telegram, the aspect of the, offer would, have been treated with the consideration it deserved. ... ;. - - ~ . ■--■!.. ~' .."Historical and Hysterloa) Telegram." ; Mr.: Taylor then read the telegram as follows,'slating that; tho'second clause was the onorto which ho speciaJly. objected :— ..-. : '-\ .' . ' March 22, 1009, Wellington. " ..;'.-. Editors of; all papers whore messages : .'. about battloship is sent. • ~Strictly confidential. ■ - I have, sent you an important telegram for publication in connection with . the British Navy.. I-would like, to im- ; press, upon you that tho situation, is much graver than is generally supposed ■■.. or has been published, and the offer that : Government has .made is one -which .wq. i know will greatly help Great Britain ill '. _-, ■ the present crisis, chiefly' by virtue of .; the ; moral effect, and a,s illustrating to . .Germany that the British Dominions will rally round tho Mother Country in the time of imminent danger, as is appa-' ■rent at. present in such a situation. ! I have felt that narrow considera.tion ■ of pounds,":shillings,..and: pence should- ; : yield to our pjain duty to Great Britain .. . where .national existonce is threatened, ■ as, the , matter transcends party, .and ; therefore- ; feel ■"it..my -duty to tell-.you confidentially our motive,. and aesirc to ; :. avoid publication of anything alarming, and hence.-hayo_made this strictly con-. . n'dential; !1 '' ■'-"' : " ' - ■.'" ' ; , : ' - J- G. WARD. ' Mr. Taylor said that it was tho second sentence of;this telegram, he believed, which had : won- for'.'tho Government practjcal'im-' munity form hostile newspaper criticism of the unconstitutional aspect of their Nearly, every newspaper editor sank all considerations of party'under the influence of a statement of that'kind. ■ '. . ; He believed that when the offer was made the' Government had. no :information other than what every man in the country had from the papers. Canada and Australia had laid claim to no such' secfcJt information. He denied that the business of this purely consultative ; Naval VConference, transcended' anything;:that' could be. dealt with in this' country. The Government '■ bad been re-' trenching hundreds of. Civil Servants, 'and thero were several thousands of men in the country, who were out of employment, and did. not know, where to look for to-morrow's meal ;'. ■ ■'.":'■'...■•,■.. ■ ';,■■-■■ Tho Prime Minister.: How ✓many are there m Christehurch? , , ' Mr.'Taylor: I will' undertako to say 'there are 400 or 500 out of employment in Christchurch. One; hundred and .fifty had givon their names' in writing in response to an appeal, but the proportion, was always greater of men-who; did'not caro to dis-' close' their position: 'He wanted to see an: efficient representation of the Dominion,, at -. the' -■ Naval Conference. None rwould; oppose that, but he held that.they could secure such representation without-dislocating-all the public business of the'country for the next six months. ,"I believe," said : Mr. Taylor, "that a vast number of people will believe that the Premier's .present desire to figure on'a stage so big as Londoii is will account for his strong desire to.be presentjat this conference." The volunteer force of this country was-com-pletely disorganised arid disheartened, the Defence Council had been recently disbanded, and-matters relating to defence'in Now Zealand were in a perfectly chaotic state. That was an important subject with which Parliament: should 'deal at once. As against Mr. Blatchford's statement of opinion, he oould' state that of Cardinal Moran, if ho liked,, that, tho Dreadnought offer was a'-"piece of hysterical folly." ;.....' Ho was, quite willing to support the Prime Minister, going' Home,: but 'the' prospect of getting .-through' the business of the session in. two months was not 2ood, unless a large number of important matters were going , to be shelved. ; It: was. very flattering-to any man to-take part in such a conference, but after the Imperial Government had gone out of its way to make it clear-that it was only j a. subsidiary conference, and seeing that Australia u-as.sending.a : senator, who was, to,bo sure, Minister for Defence, and Canada did! not suggest sending her Prime Minister, iVw Zealand should havo licen represented by the High Commissioner. The proposal to adjourn the session was a reflection' on' even memb«r, of tlio House. If tho Prime Minister was ill, would Parliament bo prorogued? It was inconceivable.- If Parliament were sitting.when the Prime Minister was away he would bo ablo to commnnicato with them, S lol ' ™» H b° a great advantage. Either Mr. Millar or Mr. Fowlds coultl have conductal the business of tho session with | .dmniiy nnd success in the absence of tho Pnhio Minister. -~ FIRST MOTION CARRIED. I Tho Primo Minister then proceeded to put the motion (as set. out above) in two parts Tbo _ first partr-to the effect that tho Primo Minister should bo. Now Zealand's repre.sonta. tivo at tho conference—was carried, with ore flissetiticnt voice. A chorus of-, "ay.os" ■' fol-" lowed the /reading of the second part (ad joummont of the session), but bcfnro "noes" were called for, it was seen that the member for Bruce was on his feet. MR. ALLEN MOVES AN AMENDMENT. Mr. James Allen (Bruce) moved tlio following amendment:— , . , "That this meeting, boing of opinion that_ important business, which docs not admit of delay, awaits tho consideration . of the .Legislature, deems it. advisable that thp work of Parliament should proceed without-interruption.'.' ~ . ' The mover said .that! the Premier certainly ought to go to the conference, which would not be, as Mr. Taylor had-suggested, a slight tiling. It would deal with technical subjects certainly, but it would .also-deal with the

principles of T naval and military defence, '.there should bo somo one who could speak for the country as no High Commissioner could speak. Wero Mr. Taylor's contention correct that only technical matters were to bo discussed, there would bo no need for a Minister to go, because the Dreadnought matter could be dealt with by cablegrams. Tho conference really camo about tliroug'n tho action of Canada, who desired to take her share in Imperial defence, and wanted to ■know where she stood in the matter of rcr presentation nnd tho defence of her" own shores. After Canada had,asked for a conference, the offer from New Zealand camo in, and also some suggestion from Australia, and the British Government then naturally concluded that it would bo a convenient timo for a conference, at which tho whole question of military and naval defence could be cussed.Finances of the Country. - The Premier had suggested that Parliament, after passing supplies; and presumably a Loan Bill, and, granting an extension of appropriations, from Juno 30 to September 30, should adjourn. But tho appropriations would be only those of last year, and no new works could bo undertaken until Parliament met again. Everything would bo at a standstill, and the Ministry would bo freo<-to do what they liked with the colony'b money until September 30, the only limitation being that. , they could not spend more than was voted last year, and that only on certain specified works. ■ The issuo of party had been brought in by tho Primo Minister. Had the Premier: been actuated only by Imperial instincts, he would have said the matter was too great for party, and that he was not going to ask Parliament to consider him or his . party, but that he would go to the Imperial Conference, and trust his party and his colleagues, and rely upon the honour of tho Leader of the Opposition to play tho game fairly. Ho should havo gone to the Leader of the Opposition, as had been done on a previous occasion. ■'-'■'•'..■' c If Sir Joseph had sought the co-operation of Mr. Massey, he would have boen made' satisfied that the Opposition would hot take any, unfair advantage of his absence.: What ho had done was for the glorification of himself and his party. In Heaven's namo, what was there to prevent the business of the country from being carried, on during the absence of its Prime Minister. , Supply would be voted before lie went, and then it could be left to tho other members of the Ministry to bring down the Public Works Estimates, etc. It Was monstrous to say that eighty men should let three months go by because the Prime ' Minister \ was absent. Tho\ declaration by - the Prime Minister that he would not,go to the conference if tho House did not adjourn placed members in a false position—was an attempt,to coerce members to consent to what they believed was a wrong thing. Ho hoped that the ■'.Prime. Minister -would withdraw his, threat—for it was nothing less than a threat. The amendment ■ should be accepted, for it did not seek to prevent the Prime j\linister from going to the conference, as members h.ad signified their agreement that he should go. On behalf of the Opposition he would say that if Sir Jopoph attended the conference. whoever ,he left in charge would receive every consideration from members of their, party. (Hear, hears.) ANOTHER SPEECH BY THE PREMIER. The-Prime Minister insisted that there should 1 have been notice of the amendment prior to the division of tho motion into two parts. There, had been no breach of faith on his part, but ho did not think ho could say the same with regard to, tho last speaker. He would not refuse to-accept the amendment despite the fact that it was'adirect negative. Sir Joseph repeated' that he would not go Home if tho House were not adjourned. 'Ho wished to. make it clear, that he was;not adopting that attitude for party purposes. With regard to the I suggestion that he' should have consulted, the' Leader of the Opposition, he; might'say that, there-.was a responsibility upon the Government, under such circumstances that nothing could removed Supposing. Mr. Massey had been"consulted,.and had shown opposition to the proposal? So long as a Government was. in office it had to accept the responsibility for its. acts. The Government could not sheltor itself under" tho aegis of the Loader'.of tho Opposition-. Pr anyone else. Then, again', it had, been said that .ho had not been sufficiently considerate to-members of Parliament including his own supporters. The Ministry, which was being blamed for tho course which it adopted, acted advisedly, and .only after the fullest deliberation. Members "would have had no opportunity to confer among themselves, and would not havo been .in possession of. the facts which were within the knowledgo of himself and his colleagues. At any rate,. if the' Government, had' in-tended-to shelter, itself in that way it would have been acting unfairly. . '■,;.'• . The Responsibility. Ministers felt that they were not justified in-throwing off the responsibility,; which rested upon them, and if they' had! aj>ted wrongly they would lose their positions, and. that when members met they would be freeto take whatever course they thought necessary. .Personally he did not believe in getting the,imprimatur of members. to a proposal by way of the telegraph. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Taylor: Then why telegraph to the editors? \>: '• ;. -' ' ■ . Sir-Joseph: We had already made the offer when we did that. It did not help us. Mr. Allen: But it did help you, Sir Joseph. Tho editors with an odd exception, , as in other professions, are men of common sense. Mr. Allen: , You think members are not then ? (Laughter.) , • Sir Joseph went, on to say that there was no mention of ratification in the telegram to the editors. Any desire to flourish on .the London stage Lad not been felt by him. It was impossible for Ministers to, disassociate themselves from praise or blame. Ho then referred to his declaration that he would-not go if the House did not adjourn. Supposing whilst he was debating,at the conference a cable was received to the effect that'the House had passed a resolution which would embarrass him— < . • Mr. Massey: Can't you trust the House? Sir Joseph. went on to say that, the people of New Zealand could not know what was going on at _ the conference. . Ho fully recognised the inconvenience which would arisa as the outcome'of the position. ' Imnerial conferences should not be held at the time when the Parliament of New Zealand was in session. The only way that that could bo got over was by haying a system of representation of New Zealand at Home. : The Unemployed. I As the question of unemployment had been raised, ho would refer briefly to it. He was just as anxious as hjiyono else to sou that legitimate employment was provided for as many as possible. During the past twelve months the Government had done more in that direction than had boen done iii any other period of tho sanie duration in 'the'history of the country. ■■ There'were at the:. present time a greater number of-men legitimately employed on Government works — Mr. Luke: But fewer in private employment. \■- ■ ■.-', ".■." Sir Joseph proceeded to shy that he would ■ undertake to prove that of the 220,000 workers ill the Dominion, there were not 2000 who, in.the strict sense'of the term, were unemrjloyed. '" A Voice: Why 'are so many leaving tho Dominion ? > Sir Joseph (resuming:) said tltnt the percentn(?o of- nndmnloycd in New Zealand was less 'than 'wns t!in "xperienco in any other oountry in the world. * ' Retrenchment. He proceeded to say that'he regretted tlio necessity for retrenchment in tho Civil Service. In addition to the provision that tho men who were going -out should, in somo cases, get three months' leave on full nay, ancV in other cases their services should bo 1 retained for another three .months, the Gov--eminent had decided to provide nrons in both islands to bo devoted specially for the workers, but not only for Civil Servants, who had bnon retired, but the- amount of superannuation. irliirii they received must not e.vcced £75 per yen/. (Hear, hears.) Ho was confident that with n littln consideration it would Ijp possible! to Vcf- n srjiemo of the kind which would li<[j> lunr;- u-'-o, for ratisps over which the , - '■'•■I ■••- f . —i--.-1 r.,,,,,] jyj. the positions which thry occupied had to i abolished.

Dofenco. Then again, he was under the impression that ho had made himself clear at Luvercargill, that the Government intended to legis-' late on the question of defence. Advisedly ho said that tho Government could not impose on the country an annual expenditure of oiio million.'on defence, for the population of the Dominion was too small, and tho exigencies of internal defeiico must bo subordinated to a reasonable extent. Sir Joseph went on to say that the Government recognised that something ought to bo done to further assist private peoplo who wanted money to develop their businesses, ett>. t Mr.-Allen: It could be done right away. You only need the Act Sir Joseph continued that what he had said was correct. Supposing, for instance, five millions were needed there would be many initial difficulties, such as 'where tho. money was to bo got from, etc. Ho had little doubt and ho did not wish to bo egotistical, but that ho should bo able to givo material help in that direction. . Tho Primo' Minister went on to refer to the bringing together of the outlying portions of the Empire which was givißg rise to the necessity of machinery being created for the voicing of opinion in all parts. In conclusion, ho said that he felt' that he should be in the House when it was sitting. The members had passed a resolution approving of the proposal that ho should go to the conference, and if it now passed a resolution which would prevent him from going the responsibility was not his but devolved on the . House. . i MR. FISHER'S VIEWS. _• Mr. Fisher, speaking after tW supper adjournment, said that the Prime Minister should have had the dispatches printed and in the hands of members for their consideration before tho present meeting was held. At the 1907 Imperial Conference Mr. Haldano,' Secretary for War, outlined a scheme of Imperial defence, and tho Premier had neglected his duty to the Dominion in not formulating a scheme of local defence. The offer of: a Dreadnought at this juncture did not atone for that neglect. No Precedent. He. had differed from tho first from the Prime Minister's action, on the ground that it had no precedent in the constitutional history of tho British Empire. The Prime Minister had said that there were precedents, but he had never heard one.quoted. He did not accept literally the statement as to tho crisis in the -telegram to the editors; tKat statement been made loosely, but it was curious to believe that the Government had had information which no ono else possessed. Thero was not in that Parliament a single Little Englinder; they differed from the Prime Minister's action not on pat-riotic,-but on broad constitutional grounds. : Ttio Naval Subsidy. ; The Prime' Minister should have offered to increase the naval subsidy, and he should have given Parliament a lead on the question of defence, which Mr. James Allen and himself had been urging upon him for years past. Mr. Fisher reproached the Prime Minister with the "utter and shameless" dofencelessness of New Zealand, and the "criminal .neglect" in regard to tho administration of its defence means. \As regards the unemployed question, ;the Prime Minister had not the faintest idea of the condition of things beneath the surface. .

The Prime Minister: I know a great deal ■ more about it than you do. .'Mr.: Fisher: Then 'your- statement that there are not moro than 2000 unemployed in Now Zealand is absolutely incorrect. ConfonniDg, Mr. Fisher'said thatit was not probable that in the Primo Minister's absence the Opposition would take , tho opportunity to undermine his power. If they did that they' would damage themselves 100 much. It was tho business of Parlaiment-to continue in session in order to provide work for.the unemployed, to settle the land , question,-, and tho Native land question, and to do.something to prevent tho present heavy exodus from the Dominion. Ho was quite willing to make sacrifices for Imperialism, but he was not willing to bo led into a, compromising promise made by fho Prime Minister without consulting Parliament to put a burden of ■debt on the, peoplo of this country for the next ten or fifteen years. He had refused to discuss this matter publicly before because ho preferred to wait for the Prime Minister's justification, but. tho Prime Minister had made no satisfactory justification. His action had been based undoubtedly on the mere cable reports m the newspapers, and that was enough m itself to condemn the action Since tho conference was to .deal with' technical and quasi-technical matters, he urged that if the Prime Minister attended the conference there should also be a military expert present, to represent the Dominion. The High Commissioner, he believed, could carry out tho:duties of a delegate as well as any layman who could be sent. He was strongly against the House adjourning, though ho would like to- sea tho Prime Minister reprosent the Dominion at the conference. MR. SPEECH. .. Mr.-Herdman said the, question whether it was advisable to present a Dreadnought was irrelevant to the discussion. The only proper questions' to be considered wore whether the Premier should represent tho Dominion at the conference, and whothes tho House should be adjourned. Ho cordially agreed that the Prime .Minister was the proper man to attend the conference, which he believed would'be ono of considerable importance. Ho should attend not only for the sake of getting reliable information as to what was to take place in the fiituro with regard to national defence, but that he should come back, if possible, with,a defence system. The commandant system and the Council, of Defence had proved a failure. He believed the reason was that tho Volunteer system had never had a chance, and that political interference had spoiled it durinc the last 15 years. He hoped that.the Prime Minister would t return from the Old Country' satisfied that there must bo no future political interference in matters of defence If there , was, our defence Would always' bo Entirely Unconstitutional. As to the adjournment of Parliament, he believed that that would bo entirely- unconstitutional, and that the extraordinary occasion of 1897 was the only precedent, " Was he to> understand that the Ministry was so woak that the Prime Minister'was afraid to leave the Dominion with Parliament still in session.- Ho could assure him that he need have no fear for the members of the Opposition, because it was one of theui principal desires that tbo Prime Minister's party should continue to occupy their present benches during the next three years until the Augean stables were cleansed (Laughter.) He believed that they had readied a different condition in tho country s history from any that had linen nxperienced for 17 or 18 years. The tide had hegun. to turn. The' Primo Minister had virtually admitted that £250 000 a year had been spent by the Government on tho Civil Service that should not have been spout. :\Vas it hot timo tliat legislation was introduced which would place" the C 'r', l - & l e T ico ,!! mler an '"dependent, , nonpoht.ca board? Ho. thought that this should bo done immediately and he believed that tho Primo Minister had colleagues who wore quite ablo to carry out . that matter, even ' in his absence. The control and management of the railways, oili whicli tho Prime Minister and tho Hon. J. A. Millar had expressed different opinions, was .mother question that cried for immediate settlement. The Prime Minister had attributed tho financial tightness in some measure to tho lower price'of flax and wool. Bo would point out'"tliat tho price of wool had recovered, and he urged that the Government's system of legislation and administration had filled would-bo investors with dread and fear, and that persistent interference with the rights of individuals and a system of terrorism, which was felt by people wlio had money to invest, were loading factors in the financial situation. "The policy of tho Government is driving capital out of the. country, and thu one thing that will restore prosperity," concluded Mr. Hordmau, amidst laughter, "is for you, sir, to resign." -. : , . MR. MALCOLM. Mr. Malcolm (Cliithti) said lie had previously taken for granted that Uio Prime Minister had spe.-iui information to justify.

his action, but he did not think that tho dispatches read were sufficient for that purpose. MR. LANG. Mr. Lang (Mamikau) thought that the question of who should attend tho conference was for tho Government to decide. The Prirco Minister should either go Home, and loavo an Acting-Premier to take charge, in which case he could trust the Opposition not to tako unduo advantage, and ho should send Home some other representative. If the work of Parliament wore- hold , over for a summer,session it would bo badly slumped. ' MR. R. A. WRICHT. Mr. Wright said that he could not do otherwise than vote for tho amendment. Tho Naval Conference- really arose from a suggestion by Canada, and the Dreadnought offer had nothing to do with it. Ho was solid for tho British Empire, and wouldrepei any suggestion that thoso -who did-not agree.with all the proposals of the Primo Minister were. Little Englanders. Ho was a Little Englandcr. Mr. Wright then quoted a statement by Lord Charles Beresfbrd deprecating panic, and went on to argue that the session should go on. Tho contrary plan implied that the electors had sent to Parliament 79 fools and only one wise man. (Laughter.) We had drifted into a one-man system. Ho did not blame the Primo Minister, but he would .y suggest to him that he should train and educato someone to do his work when required. This was done inall business houses where he had been. The Prime Minister had a majority of 25 in the House, and so the Opposition could not do his party much harm in his absence. The man in the street .was saying that the Pnnio Minister's idea was to: avoid facing the music, but he had better give the man in the street tho lie. Speaking of the work required to be done by Parliament, Mr. Wright < said the Primo Minister did ,not nnderstnnd the unemployed question! Wellington members were being worried to death'by applications from the unemployed. Mr. Wright said ho was glad to hear that. Ho ; concluded with a renewed and emphatic protest against tho proposed adjournment of .Parliament. ' ■ • ■ • / MR. M'LAREN'S MAIDEN SPEECH. Mr. D. M'Lareu (Wellington East) said LaiMlur parties in somo' other countries Bad been found fault with on the ground of control by caucus, but he learnt that the Government and the. Opposition here had had caucuses I during the past three days, while tho Labour I party, which consisted only of himself, did not need to do so. Before they could get defence on a proper footing, they must get tho land for the people. ■ Unemployment, particularly ou the Wellington wharves, was dealt with by tho speaker, who I said that in Wellington alono there must I bo 1000 out of work, apart from those who wero obliged to.live on £1 to 255. a week. There were large bodies of men out of work m almost all parts of the country. ProceedMr. M'Laren expressed regret that Ausr tralia had now followed the unwise example, set by New Zealand, in regard to the.Dreadnought offer. Ho thought the business of Parliament should bo continued wlulo the Prime Minister was away attending the conference. - ■ MR.- J. P. LUKE. Mr. J. P. Luke said his honest conviction was that tho offer of the Dreadnought- would not bo accepted, but that somo other .arrangement would bo. made, Tho Primo Minister's decision'.' not to go' Homo if the House did ■ not adjourn was a serious reflection on'his colleagues. Apart from tho questions of policy, there I was a good deal of departmental matter Which might engage -the attention of Parliamont during Sir Joseph's absence. It was well that New Zealand should bo adequately represented at the conference, but the business of the country must go on. He'felt that he must bo honest to his convictions and vote for the amendment. ■ ' ' " MR. ANDERSON. Mr. Anderson said it was' not right however, that the country's credit should have been pledged without consulting members. As far as ho could see thero was nothing in the messages which had been read to justify tho gift in the manner in which it iiad been made. There was no his opinion, why Parliament should not have been called together two months before. Hβ felt that tho business of the country should go on in the absence of tlie Prime Minister. MR. VIGOR BROWN. Mr. Vigor Brown said he proposed to vote for the. .motion. If an Oppositionist had been Prime Minister he would have made . a similar offer to that which.had been made by Sir JosepH Ward. It would be easy to provide the cost of the Dreadnought if .the- Government would unlock two million acres of Native lauds Mr. Taylor,: at this stage, read the resolution passed at .the meeting of the Typographical Union upon the proposal to adjourn parliament. He went on to say that he felt there was a great deal more unemployment than was known to the Prime Minister. THE VOTING. MOTION CARRIED BY 45 TO 30. Upon tho motion aiid the amendment being put there seemed to bo an equal number iu favour of each. Sir Joseph Ward said .ho thought, the motion had been carried. Upon a division, being-taken, tho votinc was as under:— . ;. For the motion , (45)— Messrs. Arnold, 5, au ? le, ~?i Ron ' n > iJu <M°. Buxton, Carroll, Uark, Colvin, Craigie, Davey, Dillon T Duncan, Ell, Vielrl, Forbes, Fowlds, Graham', Grconsladc, Guhmuss, Hall, Haiian, xlornui Hogg, Jonniugs, Laurenson, Lawry. Siacdonald, R_. M'Kenzie, T. Mackenzie, J. A. Millar, Ngata, Parata, Poland, Poole, Reed Ross, Russell, Scddon, Sidey, Stallworthy ™?• $£ lor ; Dr - Buck > J - C. Thomson, Ward, Wilford.

For the amendment (30)— Messrs. Allen Anderson, Bollard, Buchanan, Buick, Dive J. Duncan,.Fisher, Fraser, Uuthrie, Hardv, Herdman, Hme, Lang, Luke, M'Laren, Malcolm, Mander, Massey, Newman, Nosworthv, Okey, Pearce, Pliillipps, Rhodes, Scott, T E. Taylor, G.■ M. Thomson, Witty, Wright _ Mr. Fraser pointed out thatit might lie inconvenient if tho House were unablo to meet earlier than Septemhor 30. The Premier night, therefore, find it advisable to alter the resolution in that particular before getting it endorsed by Parliament. In conclusion, Sir Joseph Ward thanked members for having accepted his invitation to meet informally.