THE NAVY.

Dominion, Volume 2, Issue 505, 12 May 1909, Page 5

THE NAVY.

GREAT DEBATE IN HOUSE OF COMNONS BRITAIN AND GERMANY. PROPOSED EXCHANGE OF PROGRAMMES. By a party vote of 218 on March 29, tho Houso of Commons rejected tho vote of consuro on the Government:— "That in the opinion of this Houso the declared policy of His Majesty's Government respecting tho 'immediate provision of battleships of tho nowest typo does not sufficiently Becuro the safety of the Empire." . Tho'question at issno was really whothor tho Government would definitely promise to lay down oight Dreadnoughts this year. Tho vote therefore means that only four Dreadnoughts can be regarded 'as certain; the four "hypothetical" Dreadnoughts still remain in the realm of hypothesis. The debato (says the '''Daily Mail") was worthy of the,greatost traditions of tho House of Commons so far as its speeches went. The debate began nr an atmosphere of repressed feeling, always present when great issues, as distinct from party matters, aio under review. Members entered Palace Yard through a crowd lined up outside tho groat iron gates Insido the Houso the expectancy was as keen as it was out in~ the street. Members seated on. tho green benohos hardly whispered to each other, and there was almost an absenco of the usual chorus of undertones. Over all lay the spirit of a great occasion. No ono present could fail to detect the atmosphere of anxiety, entirely different from the usual heated party feeling on important political occasions. Responsibility was in tho air. Tho nerves of all wero strangely touched by it. Tho gathering in' tho Honso was an impressive one, when at a quarter to four tho Speaker called on Sir. Arthnr Leo. Never during the present session have thore been so many members present Tho only gap in the field of faces was on tho, Nationalist benches. Members unable to find seats' in tho usual places on tho floor of the House wero sprinkled v along tho Bido galleries overhead, whilo others found temporary seats m the gangways; Sir Frederick Banbury and Mr Masterman were perched on the steps of the Speaker's ,l chair Members'of tho House of Lords filled t tho Peers' Gallery, among them being Lord Cawdor, First Lord of the Admiralty under Mr. Balfour. Later tho gallery was so crowded that Lord Lansdowno and Lord Midleton could not get in. Tho diplomatists' gallery was crowded Among tho Ambassadors wore those of the United States, Japan, and Germany. , , (

Nα Panlo, but Acute Anxiety. A burst of applause- broke from the Unionists when Mr. Lee rose to move the vote of censure. He, began his task in the low tono and with the' steady -utterance- of a man who is determined to' miss no point by reason of oxcitenrent or, over-anxiety. Ho was obviously a littlo nervous, but, cheered by-his colleagues, r he soon 1 " began to manifest,assurance. Tho solid army of hundreds of Liberal!! opposite,'tho.band.of Labour members on the saino-sido of tho House, were as keenly "interested in every word, that dropped ,from Mr. Lee as tho Unionists 'themselves. From time to time thero was an angry murmur as'sdmo stab, went home. Onco or twice defiant cheers broke out, but' on the whole a respectful Bilenco .allowed him to make all his points clearly. "Surely," said Mr. Lee, "it is bettor that we should have ships of 70 per cent, proficiency on -the day of Armageddon than double the number of ships-of 100 por cent, profieioacy after the battle i's over." -Facts had como to his notice which enabled him to say that if tenders were ini vited for the problematical ships' it would „ bo possible to have four of them in two years and four months, and a'Second four jn two jears and months.- v '' ' • ' ! '!' /..x'l' Sir E. Crey. Sir Edward Grey, calm, pale-faced, and dignified, zwho had been making-- occasional notes during Mr. Leo's speech, at once rose from the '!e of tho Pnmo Minister, and was, greets l , with shouts of applauso from tho Liberals. In his characteristic, deliberate way, ho acknowledged that Mr. Lee's speech was in the nature of an appeal'and not at all provocative. At the same time tho Opposition could not escape from tho form or their motion nor. from its effects in > ' the House and outside. Tho Liberals cheered loudly, and. Mr. Balfour exclaimed, "It is not wo who want to escape," and tho Unionists met the Liberal outcry with counter-cheers. A touch of warmth crept into tho Foreign Secretary's voico. "Is the right hon. gentleman," he asked, "prepared to give an' assurance that tho terms of this motion and its wholo effect will not bo used for party purposos outside?" The Liberals burst into delighted applause.: "Whoever takes a stop of this kind must be responsible for the consequences; I am not suggesting that tho right hon. gentleman wanted to run away." Tho 'Opposition, before putting down a vote of censuro, should have waited till tho last possible moment consistent with national safety. Tho timo would havo been in July, the usual.month, for for new . .■;■"■; ■•:' 'S.'; '•■:"■'•'■•. *~''.■ ..'[:■'/I'-:.''' '■:':':^Our : - f^ >;,{;■ : ; : ':', ■.\ y. 'He ..acknowledged; the non-party attitude, '■:'• ; of, Mxi' BaKoiir ,on• questions of.national de- ;':'. >fence , '.-generally,:;.and. einplia'sispd ; ; i.is :■ regret ■ : - at;: the, present -action of i the Opposition '•;.--'; Leader. 'Then , he, turned to : the 'issue. '-'I ;"': will not attempt'to 'minimisb 1 the seriousness -..'' -..of; the situation. 'We; are not*'striving, for. a ■.''■■■.!; ,^fty';-yjii^iy,/-}Te.i 'dMire'.;by ; .-j«st,-'fair, :; aiia " ". reasonable; statements of our? position, to gain ■ : v'vno'f^^victbry,;but'confidence.--'.(Applause;) . ', ■"'-.-: '■:■■■'i'-"A new. situation is created by the Ge'r- ;' ;; man iprpgramme. '.'/Whe'nat is .cbmpleted/Ger- ::. manyywtll' have tie':fleet oloso"to oiir own ;.V "shores, Iwill; have .-a: fleet of 'thirty-three ;.::*' ■ Dreadnoughts j ? : and that -fleet ! -w'ill.be;themo&t ; • .powerful:which the worldybas ever seen. /'.(Chat ;impbses on: us'the, .necessity piTebuild- '. ;. ing the whole of bur Fleet.':' What-w^donbt. : :know>'is' the time in which we shall have to ■ /:" 'do ; it. •■ - : That''is the element "of doubt and

;,uncertainty.; :-The first thing■ we have got to mako sure of is our capacity to build. : We have got'.to'.take 1 stock of the' plant in: tliis , I. country.. in order tnat- when wo : givo orders '..for ships they] may he completed in;the short- '■■: est. possible time. \ (Cheers.) By that I mean -.'■ orders- not for .'one,-ship, ,but for, : a ibatoh of ; ships.■.: The' Admiralty hayo taken stock of ;our plaint.'British capacity fofchuildine'hulls and ipropelling. machinery is considerably in , excess ot tho.German oapacity. In , thomanufacturo' of guns of the largest, size {wo believe .our, capacity, for output 'is. also superior. The 'weak, and doubtful point .-is; pur comparative capacity 1 for the construction of gun mount- , ings'.';; The; Admiralty have already, madoar- •': rangements makufact-urorsVin'.'pro--■-.vide for suchan. : racrease in.' their -plant as .--. will in the. course; of a few months from, the ■ ':■'■- present ; ;time, givo us van ad»-antage; ; '.in '.this branch of oonstructiori also.' , .(Cheers.) "... . _ The.- House sank ; to a-.; siilL deeper', attention; when the Foreign Secretary detailed our relations with •Germany.-' 'i.;:V,;W r . ,; ',': . -'.'We .took'. things up when : ,wo' came into v office 'as. wo found ..them;-'- \ Dxi'ring the Alge-. - ciras'Conference- between us '.and :Germany . there was .a period ;.of; diplomatic -tension, , but with tho closo of that conference wo had ; nothing to:.discuss but tho questions relating ,'■;- directly to ourselves, and diplomatic relations proceeded?perfectly .Bmoothly. - : The.; next ' : point was the visit of the German Emporor to London, a visit which was in'all-respects ..; satisfactory., .(Cheers.) .From that, stage wo ■, furthcr,one, the. visit of the King ..to Berlin tho other day, which in.its turn ; ;Was i _enually i satisfactory. '• (Clicors.) As far as. diplomatic .relations are concerned, i since ; : the ->,present Government;,,oamo■'.:.into of- ■■-.: ficovtliere has been'a peaceful -.'progression and • improvement-rbetween-, us : and Ger.many up to the King's : visit to Berlin. - As , ;-regards.; our 'diplomatic relations with Germany,. I; see a:'wide,space in ..which we may both of us walk in peace and amity. (Loud "and prolonged 'cheers.) -In V : m y ;,9PJn!on two iextreirie .things, would - pro- :' duco;'a conflict:"One is,an attempt on our ■part. ,to: Germany. ; I'should like to observe that in; Tfcqnt events nothing has : been, more unfouiitfed .'or malign in-its' in- ' flupiice;; than .the statement-' that any .dif,;>lce of; opinion wo have har\ with ieir.ini

to-'Austria-haa been dictated by tho fact that Austria was Germany's friend. On the contrary we have carofully avoided anything ■which was likely to niako mischief between those two Powers. (Oheers.) Another thing whioh. would certainly produce, a conflict ■would;-be-the- isolation ! pf England, under an .attempt by .any great Continental Power to dominate and diotato tho policy of the Continents But between ttieso 'two extremes there is a wide space in which the two nations can walk together in a perfectly friendly Vway. (Cheers.) • If that ■is understood by : public opinion in the two countries, surely they must recognise that the possibilities of peace and goodwill between us are enormous. (Cheers.) . . v . ."' Tho OrilsrWay. v : ; . -."'■"The-Gorman view of their, naval , -programmo.is that it is.made for their own needs/and has no reference to ours. Our view-of ■ our own naval needs is that our expenditure-is, and must be, dependent on the German expenditure, although. the Ger? man iS not' depehclent upon ours.;' (Cheers.) It islessentialito us .that.'we should not fall into apposition;-of- inferiority. . Publia opinion increasingly measures our probable' relations with Germany; by our respective naval expenditure. An. iricreaso of naval ■expenditure" on both'sides is undoubtedly viewed by public opinion with apprehension, arid a decrease would immediately produce a feeling'of increased 'security and peace: (M^in : isterial"'cheers.) If we could have a cessa : tion of competition, tho effect would be incalculable.! (Cheers.) Is there any conceivable method by which this might be brought about? Various arrangements aro conceiv:ablo.;>. A{ general agreement to '.limit, or. reduco.- naval expenditure,; ■ a comparison of Naval Estimates year by year in advance, or, if/these; were impossible the two Admiralties'might exchange'information as to the progress of their building. Suppose each .Government-were, to,-,'say ;that in ,order./to' stop these scotos and suspicions tho two /Admiralties,;;should, agree ,:to : ;exchange information, ,'arid'Cpht' ; each, in 'a .position to say that;tnejv{knew/,the''other's'programme. That.. is "the "only.-, way;'it; can -'be /done. I foresee that even if we,dispose,of the:statements of. Hon. members opposite, we . shall in the future from 'timo .to' tinie have these excursions and alarums, and I know of no way in, which they can ' bo, completely disposed of; unless 'the 'two. , . Admiralties/, .agree jto exchange,information. On what'basis would an arrangement with Germany have to bo 'proposed?; '/It must be the basis of. the superiority of the British. Fleet.'.; It is an ; other, thing to-ask the/Gorman Government ,to;;oxppse ; itself to/the 'charge of,having cooperated to make tho; attainment of our view easy. There, is no cafnparison .between the importance of the GernjiurNavy to Ger-. many and of our Navy to us. (Cheers.). Our Navy is to us what their. Army is to them. The Navy is "not a matter of life and. death to, them as it'is to us.'- (Cheers';): , ... "■.'

Germany's; Declaration. .'■: /; v ■.; : 0 • ;,•.''Wβ ■have''Been: informied -'Verbally, but quite 1 ; definitely, ■ that...Genaariy-.iwill not accelerate her navarprpgrammo 'of construction 1 and will riot hare thirteen ships.'pf the Dread-nought-type; including'cruisers;;-'till .the, end of 1912;' Wehav'eialeo beeri.,tbld\that contracts for ■': two ißhips financial:year 190940: .were.'promised; 'injidrance; t0.. : certain firms,'..which:- will be ready .for'trial: trips at the' earliest'in ; <April,vl9l2, and will 1 not be ready; for commission''before 1912. ;the/feinainirig'-two?ship3 of the 1909-10 Ijirogramme' we are;.informed that /tenders will be. called for late in-the summer, and that -the- ordors will be eiveivtwo or three months "later. : We did not , ask- tho Gorman Government' for --information,: but early in January I took,'an >opportunity of- : making always been told'by. the... Germans; that, they were -not going to exceed 'their present programme, yet,; according to bur: information, . thero was acceleration;■.-and they must therefore' noti 'be-surprised if Estimates showeda. considerable'increase. .It is a declaration of intention; it-is not an undertaking; it does noVbind; tho German Government, but. it does .'dispel'of the idea that thoy.aro preparing to; have, three. sbips v ,ready in 1910. (Ministerial cheers: , ) "'r-'sccep't'i'-fiho German declaration of their intention.- ,It has been given nie ina form in which it'could be used '.inEarliament;. and I give jtjtyrthe House as .it.was given ; tj) me—as.a declaration of intontiongiveii in' all good faith representing tho settled mind of,the Gorman Government. (Loud Ministerial cheers.) Thejre were some points,,..however,;,which, ho lyould frankly say, : 'tho'declaratioh'did not cover. In tho ; first, place,, it, was usual for Germany to allow six months for trial, so that if. her intention was'to have ships ready for commission on a. certain date we could assume chat these.ships would be. ready: for trial six months :earlier. In the next place, there was. nothing as to the .type.of ship, and.it was possible that 'they.-.might -be .superior 'to the vessels already launched, i Supposing wo had twenty Dreadnoughts td Germany's thirteen, three or four were of an entirely new. type, possessing qualities which could not bo counteracted simply by superiority in numbers, then we. should still have to. build other ships to'

counteract'the new type. \- That is a reason for. keeping ran, open mind with regard to what I may 'call'the four hypothetical ships, If there is\danger in being too slow, there 'is also'a very igreat "danger in-'being too ■quick." ; --- : :'.••■•:•'.-■.'. .•'./::'.'.-.•-• '-}.'• . ..■ ■.;,;■ ..■-,■-. ; Cabinet's, Vital Promise, .- •■'■ ■''Nor.did Germany's declaration cover what might be called , the ■ power to i namely, the! accumulation ol gun mountings, turrets, etc.\\This might make a difference in tho-situation if the political sky should become clouded. Further, we were not told what the situation .would bo, in 1913/ or 1914. When the thirteen German vessels worecom-*, pleted in. 1912 thero would still be.twelve, niore under construction, arid they;might appear very rapidly in 1913, and 1914.'. If in the latter half of this year wo were to give orders for tho four hypothetical ships, we t should have twenty Dreadnoughts.in -April, 1913. Lot the House,-be quite clear abput' : thesefour. ships. They; are not "intended asa; limitation oil next year's programme. (Opposition cheers.) .They are put in this year a! Estimates entirely without.; prejudice to the : programme of nest year. So long* as the. Dreadnoughts are small in number, and we" 1 have a , superiority of twelve to eleven, or: anything of'the' sort, the pfe-Dreadnought. ships count for a great deal. But when you; come to say twenty : four to twenty-one they count for!less; and when the Dreadnoughts' havo reached the maximunrpoint they will hardly.count at all. : The House may say: 'We don't find fault with the power you are ■taking in the Estimates to build eight ships, but we don't, trust you-to make use of tho power.' (Opposition cheers. , )/'lf wo have information which leads, us to believe that Mother Power is accelerating its construe-' tion we shall, of course, exercise that power to the full. (Ministerial cheers.) Tho Admiralty has never under-estimated the necessities of_ the ''occasion; When it has got information it , has. aoted upon it, and when information has been' it has given national safety tho benefit:of the doubt. (Ministerial;cheers.).. Wo.shall do the same in tho, future—whenever there is any doubt we shall give the doubt on tho side of national safety. (Cheers.) When it comes to a question of .national safety, no. Government in this cb'un-I ;try ..will err ;on the side of economy." !(Cheers.) :•, . . ~ , i Ruinous Competition. ; ' ; Sir Edward Grey continued:—'(l would;be. the last to. .deny that-partial spirit has its propor place in tho nation., But what do wo find to-dny?. -.All tho great countries of Europe are raising enormous revenues, something liko half-of which is being spent on' naval and military preparations. That is a reflection on 'our civilisation.. (Choors.l If it goes on,;not : in oiir generation, perhaps, , but sooner or later, it must siibmorgo that civilisation , , and 'in Europe lead to .national Surely it.is obvious that tho whole of Europo is in tho presence of a great danger. If wo alone among tho great Powers give up tho competition and sink into. a position of inferiority, what good should wo do? (Opposition cheers.) None whatever. 'Wo could pride ourselves that we woro realising great ideals of social reform at home, whilo our very'existence Would bo at the mercy of tho caprico of: another' nation. That is not wisdom. If you fall into a position of inferiority your selfrrespoct is gone. That is a brutal way of stating the case, but it is tho truth. (Opposition cheers.) Deeply as I feel, and as tho Hoiiso feds on both sides, tho great evil of increasing naval and military' expenditure/ we. must Dβ prepared

to defend our national existence under conditions which are imposed upon. us. (Cheer's.) T am glad that our colonies are at one with us. in this matter. (Loud Opposition and Ministerial oheers.) I appeal to members on both eides of the House to keep an open mind with regard to the neods of the future, to recognise that the whole problem of national defence from a naval point of view may. be entering upon, a stago more grave, more .serious, requiring greater care" and creator efforts than anything we havo' yet known. It_ is because there js no doubt and uncertainty that our Estimates contain unusual provisions, and I would ask the House not to ask the Government to commit themselves in advance before they know what may bo inevitable. '/(Ministerial cheers.) Judge if you like when you have full facts before you, but in the' meantime I ask the Houso '.to stand with us—(Ministerial and Opposition, oheers)—in resisting ; "to me exaggerated alarm and mistaken apprehension, and'in resisting the attempt to force upon us prematurely the extreme view which has been urged." (Loud Ministerial cheers.)