THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 259, 25 July 1908, Page 7

THE HOUSE.

i" first readings. ; Uho/Housbi'met/at 2.30 o'clock. ~ ■ Tho;.following ißill.s\'.worb antroducbd. arid read-a first timo:— '• •• • : , r - • Minirig Act Amondment: Bill (Hon. M Gowan); Wellington (City) Town' Belt Resfcrves Leasing Bill- (Mr. Fislior); Wellington City Empowering- Bill ■ (Mr. Fisher:) THE; FINANCIAL DEBATEt . CONCLUDING SPEECHES. The Financial Debate-was then continued. Tho Hon. W.' HALL-JONES (Ministor for Railways /and r Piiblio Works)- dealt', with appropriations '(his repjarks. being .inaudible), and;exppnditure.-/.:Cpm i ing to the. matter of co-operativc labour ho said it did riot seem to;'be 'reJcognisptLVthat- co-operative .labourers could vfcjr,m -thoir':' .own-' gangs; , His. instruc-' tions tcj'. tliat. effect had gono forth, and if specific, instances:'-. of. 'hreachesyof.;. this',.,could, be q'upted,/Jii^tea'd;'^of : genoral 'statements made, /ho . woujd' soon - sep - iristrubtioris : were fulfilled./,; (Hear, hear.), / ' Tho/.' eb-ope'rativo systejyXhgdi ;'rfrqve3.-:-a .very ; good, one,/ and he would,','mapitain'-. it..*A': great/many men .who; J nad...gpnlj /to.'their co-operative; works without "a shilling had now-been settled on the land. The" proniisb. of: the. Government, was/going -to"' bo carried out, and they had ' largfc "areas i of.' land ready 'fdr tho co-opera-tives on'' the' Main Trunks . ' These -men had, done'; good work,, and' it; was going to be. put in their way to take up'land; New Zealand Railways. - - He./showed-the . unique position of Now Zealand in tho cost of the working of its rajlwaysi....:We, had. eleven railway sections, and each was discbnriected,: and.,thero could be no dove-tailing.. /[There was also. the configuration ■ of 'the. Dominion. tp bo, born in mind; and 'the coriipotitiori' that was 'necessary with -sea-traffic. ■Tho'." stsgo." sy'steia would not' work" in-.' th'o Dominion.' -Tho conditions of "Denmark;' Hungary,-; 'and . Belgium; -wore different; population : :'wais- denser, 'and prin-. cipal" cities-were "along tho' rbutes.'- In cf'omputing thelyear's' o'p'bratioils they niUst take' the. lines; as a wholo. Ho stated that where. the:.returns*(in;.tho' r'ailwfi'ys-produced abovo 3 'per- -cent." interest,';" the : . Government's declared ;policy. was .to allow ,the -public to. feel: thei.benefit.» LastZ-ypar there had < been. agreater 'amount": of 'rail-laying; than' over .be-1 fore -in -thb'.history ;df .-the Department. l Since--1902 ,tho .cost of;- working -the -railwayshad. labour liad:-.riseri' 2 j''"Bnt -there'rhad ;beon' no ■ increases 4% tHp}jociple. f Th"e. : ""poJicy/ was to advance thpftlines/ ahead .'o| -ffipj re/juirenients.'j This/was.^necessary -.to deyplpp. tho /.-districts,. Lan,t;year ; ,more;traiii (mileage,th'aii ever. be-' fore'ljad bcenicovorod.'-i.,;.^-:-•- • Comparisons. M r .~ . He'hbxt-'-'compiired 'Now'Zealand'passenger and .goods fares '&M:.*{lib'se "of', New South Wales, ' Victoria, 'and -Queensland. In' eaoh distance; '20' miles',' /40 , niiles, ' 60.', miles,-' and ' 100 miles J ;the''diifcren(X! j was.largely in New 'favour;-"/To:/mbet "cprii^ sea/on certain 'sections,'the Gdyornmorifccar-' ried goods at low, rates one way, and: tlieir trucks : .cpuld 'then 'comet? back-full;

Satisfactory Operations. • - ::Thet:ypar'3\return3- were itery •satisfactory, especially ; when theyhad doho so much • out of revonuo that.-might 'haVo been- done out , 6f : rcapital; r had lately,: . Baid.jthat-'.ini'that country -they... charged .improvements to, lines, ' etc.; against But} therpr the: lines .wore;• privately. ■ owri&j, •' *and.vit;°.was;to^the'ir'',advantage to ■ do* so.: Wouldvtho "Opposition :-liko this policy to. bo followed? iii-New: Zealand ?. • He .was- against, taxing the..-people/.of. .vtho ' Dominion -to-day. , therefore r.th'eso;:charges should bo made; against capital. . New.rZealand ; fllso :gavo many mora . concessions.Atoms "than .othcr'^countries'.,On;'i concluding ..tho,i>Ministor"was "liberally/ applauded. „/ ■. SIR JOSEPH WARD IN REPLY. ! Tho' iMINISTER: 0 OFv -FINANCE ' (Sir Joseph Ward) rose to' reply at 4 o'clock. Ho first»-congratulated' the • House on the tono of tho: .debate, aiid; said', that in . answoring. thor-priticisms. of.-th'o he had no personal'feeling.; :I They -had/takon-up some points • somewhat' cleveHy,' but, ho^would-bo: 'able; to.'show 'that 1 they- woro 'in: the; wrong;. AU : thoso who had,"been put up to' support the : Loader : of the - Opposition-- had' been told to preach caution, but lie would show that tho. -financialj-position -.of-..tho country "was. very- imicii stronger than they recognised, and no -would-submit :evidenco -of'an attempt to weaken the financial position of the coun-Mr-v Massey's Points Dealt- With. . : -.Coming to ...-.particular criticisms,' Sir Joscpli Wa'rd,--..in-' reply ; to a, complaint by • Mr.'iuassGy, stated;thaE mors Departmental ; report!!' had :''beenlaid' on . the table "of the . House-' before, the' financial debate ;this ses- ' sion'than ih'-'tho'corresponding period of any proviotis session, except in .one instance two years ago, 'when ' tho same Administration was m powor. • Ho quoted ; figuros in-support of .this statement. . In -regard to th'o : rosorvo fund;-securities, tho margin of ; profit was £56,000 odd-.between, what- was., paid for tho securities' and thoir present face value. This was justifiable, because they might havo to sustain losses, through-fluctuations of .the - monoyrmarket, .On ttt'o transactions 'connected with the. reserve fund-' securities' tho Government had mado profits of £2100 in'cno case • and.' £10f)0 in ,'tho other, clear" of in-' ■ terest. ; : Tho'' Government Would vtake every opportunity of'spiling any of ;theso, securi-' ties to invest'on' better terms,.: Thbso two sales had resulted in"an in'croase of interest amounting-to-.£§55. Tho fullest information would bo given, : and . tho securitios* were bound to pay. Borrowing Within the Dominion. Dealing -with'allegations as to borrowing by ,tlie_ Government . within tho Dominion, the: Minister stated ,that in. the last fivo years £0,G000,000. had .been borrowed ' in Australia by the Now Zealand Government and. £1,600,000 in this country, "Tho Leader of the Opposition had said that much of the money borrowed from tho A.M.?. in Australia was really Now Zealand money, but, lie had'.it on the authority of tho head, of tho A.M.P. in New Zealand that tiny New Zealand money borrowed by tho Government from that' institution in tho last twelve years was only £225,000, or a little over-£17,000 ,a year 'on an averago. Was that' calculated ;to weaken the finances of the people of Now Zealand? (Hear, hear.) The Auckland Savings Bank applied in 1887 for a shlire of tho .money - that'., was..bcinjr borrowed, yet the total that had been taken from that: institution , up to dato was only £220,000. " Unauthorised Expenditure. Piutsiny on to'the question of unauthorised expenditure as connected with the chango

from pro audit to post audit, tho Premier said tho Leador of tho Opposition was ovidontly unaware of what was done in con-nection-with unauthorised expenditure. Last yoar the-unauthorised expenditure totalled £122,000 odd. This included £111,000 odd in excess of votes, and every item was submitted to tho Audit Dopartment and oharged to tho proper voto.- Eleven thousand odd was tho total amount not charged against - any.' .particular '• yote. - It: was tho duty of - tho Audit -Department -'to,' soo that none of this was. contrary to law, and to report 'to Parliament through the' Speaker if there-was anything, improper.-'' The New South Wales Loan. ; In - connection with tho remarks of tho Leador of tho. Opposition as to tho' desirability of going to tho London market for loans, ho would point-out that, contrary to his''statements, the . Now South ; Wales loan ,was not a- success. . That was shown by a l'ross cable of March 24 last,:-and confirmed by : fuller . information published in . tho "Australasian Banking and Insurance. -Record;-"' 'That loan was a 'lingo arid, absolute- failuro. The hon. member , had stated that;, tho consols ought not to. bo looked on ; as interest-bearing,.. Yot tho interest we paid for. thoso consols last year was £16,750, and. the return to the Government from investments in that connection was £17,913. Reply to Mr. James Allen. Turning to tho criticisms of Mr.. J. Allen, the Ministor denied that tho '-Budget had contained any ' incorrect statement as to- ' the, amount -of money '• borrowed,- or - the growth of: the public debt.' Tho debt was reduced during the year by £967,000. Ho then .read •a'vletter i 'from tho Secretary to the Post Ofiico denying that circulars/had been sent to' Friendly 'Sioieties asking them '.tp; deposit funds in the Post-' Office- Savings Bank- ; -' Mr.' J: Allen: 'I; didn't "say that. •I' said the Friendly Societies woro asked- to invest in tho .Dominion's loans.' is. i .' -/ Sir Joseph Ward: Well, I will look into that.;.-! don't /think'that-is what you/said.' I shall want something moro than a mere affirmation. ," ... : : .-. ':. ... ■ Mr. J. Allen: I will show you the circular. ,- Sir Josoph/Ward: I. should'like-to see it, and whom it. is signed by, and all about it. Ways and Moans. ' Proceeding, he repelled Mr. Allen's statement ; that the total .ways arid' means', had been'incorrectly given, in the. Budget through the omission of a balance of '£152,562;" The balarice was shown/in.the proper place. Ho. qrioted:'from hisspeech'"on .tho Loan. Bill; where hb had given the total ways and means £2,441,800 plus £.152,562 availablei'at tho end-'! of March in the' Public Works Fund. Mr. Allen , in this matter had shown' a colossal political audacity. .Did they- suppose Kiat the Government was going to spend tho whole .of the Public Works.Fund when they were relying on a largo contribution': from . tho Consolidated Revonuo? They/had .never' done so, and never would: |3uch might be the: action suggested by an irro'spbnsiblo. would-be. Minister-pf Finance, .but lit would .not be. tho : action of a Minister: with full, responsibility, who recognised tho'.necessity' of keeping the Public Works Fund as strong as tho general, finances. Some of the hon. membor|s remarks had reminded him of tho timo'when tho late :Sir Harry Atkinson was pleading with his party to help hiiri to tbe country' into a strong financial' position/; The-'ran away from their leader,-arid thoso . who assisted him woro -the members of the party of which ho (Sir Joseph' Ward) waa one. • Economy /and-Local Wants. : In regarcl' to. -oxpenditure/on roads'/..the 'Minister .'stated that- it had bebri on a much .greater. scale sinco'' the .'.'present party, came- , into power than it was beforo,. . Mr.. Allen, in quoting the' passage in tho Budget of 1906, where hp, (Sir Joseph Ward) indicated, that - the annual expenditure on railways should .'not become larger than it then was, had mentioned the 'appropriation, but had ; entirely omitted to, state.-the expenditure,, which was 'consid'erably/largejr. /.yl/He -alsp twitted;.iMr, .'Allen with; wßiip-'he.'.mado; applications /|or; uiimprous wprksj/iri. -'.his. own, district. spending : ;:twp millions on"now railway buildings,. aha';a city to put them in.. Ho was the great land'nat-, -lonaliser of tho South—(laughter)—and he (tho Premier) had judged from tho face of tho Leador of the Opposition that, he would, take his follower into his room' afterwards.and. give him a good flogging, (Laughter;)' Tho'Crltlolsms'ol Mr. Horrles. ' 'Tho .bbst : ;Oppositibn/{criticism'l of'the Fin-', ancial Statemont.had como from Mr. Herries, who had asked why tho land for settlements investment account should bp.kopt : up. . Tho answer., was' 'that in '' purchasing ' estates, it was often .necessary . to obtain: large amounts of' money../quicklyThe money was well in- ' vested,' arid" there had been no loss; "of aiay' sort or kind, When, tho'Government effected a good- operation by which they saved the country a -large sum of'interest the Opposi- . - .tion.tried-to minimiso it/ It was-a bad habit,-, and - a bad', habit :in';a' politician should be got"rid of; and thiscerideavo'ur/to/weaken-the fin-: -ances 6f tho-country was a 'very "bad: habit. And. all ' the 'time they were complaining they ..were- crying out "for-millions nioro: for :: rail-: ways,' etc. '/ '- /-.. '■}/ , ■.!' A Challanga. '/-' ■'->-■ ;:i -' :■-,/' ~ Ho said, that Mr./W. 'Fraser,: in showing that the surplus should, liavo' been, ,increased,' 'had made ah, error.' .in/ book-keeping.'/ .He would give, him a. public challenge. He' was prejpared to• -.allow • him to go' to, the. late' Auditor-and,, poritrPllor-Gp'neral, I 'or to any accredited''account-ant. ; ;and lio (tho Pro'mior) would give, out of "his/Small means . &100 .to any' charity' ho' could name if ho' wis not nght. (Loud applause.) "I can prove it ten thousand times ovor," lie cried l . '(Loud applause.) : Some, cross-questions occurred between tho Premier and Mr. Fraser, and tho former said Mr. Fra'sor was endeavouring ' to cliango his ground. Hp repeated his challenge,'and; though- not 'a dancing man lie would dance when the member for Wakatipu learned'thb result. (Laughter.)/ . A' moinber:. What about the- Anti-Gamb--ling Act... (Laughter,) . , / / :'

A Newspaper Paragraph. ,'_ J; V Ho turned, to'thoso who had endeavoured to 'decry ' tho financial position of tho ' country. He wanted-to call attention _to ; a paragraph published in a financial journal in : May last, in -London. It ran 'as follows: — "What is wanted is the'creation of - a publio opinion!, both in New Zealand 1 nnu-. hero whichwill force tho administration to slow down, and ceaso living ujjon loans, and so give a fino country some chahco to grow up into healthy nation. Replying to somo' of tho..,wild • words of Sir Joseph Ward,' Mr. J. Duthic's . 'Borrowing prospect of four , : millions a year for New Zealand.' is calculated to give our market'the-shivers;" This was quoted in rogard to; a letter of ;Mr.Duthio published in The Dominion '.newspaper, a letter which .was. about our "four millions"•'a'year borrowed for New-Zealand. Now ho wanted to. call attention .to; a matterin cpnnpction this.. What . had the Loader . cif,;tho, Opposition.'.said 'during -his'; speech- on; 'tho Budget',Ho ' had- 'said that--if , the electors of tho Dominion did-not feelinclined to put tho brako. on,-.it would bo a good thing for tho country as a whole ifthe money-lenders did. Ho (the Premier) wanted Mr. Massoy and members-to realiso the weight which-"would .bo attached to theso words. Was thoro oho of tho proposals of the Government which tho lion, gentleman or tho members of tho Opposition had voted against, or had voted to reduce charges? Was tliore an lion, gentleman opposite who had not mado .largo,-demands on behalf'of his .district? Applause.): Not ono could say no. (Applause.) , . „ . ' Not Angry. , His critics had boon ungenerous enough to say-lie was showing temper or wrath. . Ho was not showing temper or wrath.)!Ho had been showing tho people in connection with tho loan proposals that a very large majority of tho monoy obtained was interest bearing. They woro also told in conncction with their borrowing that they worp'-absorb-ing money that tho pcoplo woro not getting. When pressed they wero'told thoy wero getting it from tho A.M.P. Society.- Thoso people had a. right to' offer investments,, but Now Zealand had never gone to them for money and woro not likely, to. -JTho very • night tho ■ Leader of ther Opposition spoko, Queensland had sent across here money at

■ i pqr cent, with a 2 per cent, premium for investment in our loan of £1,250,000 this . yoar. A day or two afterwards a very large i parcel was invested of monoy takon across | to Queensland for tho purposo of buying an [ estato in Queensland. This was sent hack i and invested in New Zealand securities at [ par for 4J per cent. (Applause,)' j Money Refused. i During the. past week .while tho debase ;■ was' going on he had refused £380,000 of i Australian investments in this country. He could show the Houso tho papers. Ho had never 'yot broach of confidence,' and,.he .was not-going to do so now. He had responsibility upon his shoulders. He would toll hon. members this, however, that | thero wero people in the country and there ! had boon .people for soma years who were [ always ready to invest in New Zealand stock if they camo down low onough. Fur--1 ther than that-ho was not prepared to go. During last wpek ho had had in his position as Ministor for refused a quarter of a million of money,. in_ one instance, '• because. the people wanted it below par. Ho,had refused.it during the course_ of the financial-debate and he could prove it. He did not blame people for doing what they could whon there was a good opportunity to invest. But tho Ministor for Finance was bound to' resist the lowering of stocks. Renewals of Loans. What had taken place'in regard 'to tho renewals'.of loaus iii .Australia of. New' Zealand money? On. August 18,. £232,000 had been falling : due. ; Practically.!'the whole amount' without .any..disoount] and' any charge was arranged for. He attacked the Leader of the Opposition for his criticism of the revenue for tho first quarter of this financial year, when l referring; to the. outlook. _ Ho. had quoted: tho decrease in the customs (in which new tariff reductions'were in operation)", but had nogleetod-to show that largo increases had taken place in tho railways, post aud , telograph, otc.' ?'Tha Dominion" Again. Tho mouth-piece of the Opposition here in Wellington, established'for the disseminating their opinions, abroad and in Wellington, said that he was too optimistic. He asked that he bo shown an instance 1 in wkioh ho had underrated the position. He defied them to .do'it (Applause) ; they oould not, bad-never been able'to (Applause). /'■ That mornirig/tho paper had be'entiyirig-to discount; tho ris'o. in Wool. (Hear, hear) ,• to' show that, it was"of'no con- : .'sequence; »; Look' at' tho • atteriipt' VtrliioH. io'mo man,- whose-name' was stifled, had made in •the.paper to'get- them to gell their wool, hero ■ on tno\belicf . that tho advanco was of lio consequence!' Were tliose people heard to say that there was a bright Tiopo" for tho future. : They wero fusing all the means in-tlieir'power to. fortify themselves in - a 'thoy had made'long ago, ; and they were at' it all the time. , . Caution Preachers. ,• Thb/Proriiier again Preferred to the critics of 'the Opposition 1 preaching' the necessity for caution,_Md yet giving h'im a hard , task to resist their demands for their own electoral requirements. Mr.; W. FrasPr was one of the worst of them. (Laughter.) "I have almost'worn out.half a dozen suits of. olothes standing with my back against tho wull, as 1 liavo :to do, to' resist their demands; (Laughtor.) Hungry,' hungry, they are,, all the timo," cried Sir Joseph. (Laughter.) He showed that great necossity still existed for railway extension both in tho'; North and in the South, arid 'the '.necessity for.meptiiiis th» convenience >'of tho.-people. '-.Yot theories arose about, piling up tho debt. ; , The Opposition had voted- for the'graduated tax, and now thoy stood up„ against it ;, thoy said tho valuations, had gone, up, 1 , Ho urged thfl fallacy of 'the.''over-valuation argument.;.' Tho .'officers'of ;j,ho 'Department had been • told • only to do, "was reasonable, -. : ; - ; Tlghtnpss of Money..': . Referring to this .'subject, he said ho held in his hapd-five - or-six'circulars.These-were--Sent out in January'of 'tliis'year, the time of' the Unancial; troubles - puts'ido of,; Now- Zuii;land.: 'Th'ejK asked .'olients •' in-the* oirofilSr.'-lo' kindly let-them know'at onco if an extension of loans'falling due . was' desired to throe or five years, aid' at. a.very large .increase ininterest. . lipoid pot. want to.givo tho institutions away .''Ho ha'tl their'names. (Hoar, hoar.) They. Said-that if the renewals wore not made, thoy would be -compelled to consider tho question of repayment at onco, and they all said the same thing,- and named a very 'large ■ inoreaso '.in interest., \ Tho , Advances to 'Settlers Dopartinont had advanced £1,400,000 up to' this yoar,; an d, mentioning this/'tnb Primp Minister referred to tho-ease of " a"; woman from'whom per' cent,- ! was asked by money-lenders'for renewal. She had required more than the.Adyances to Settlors' office, oould givo,,-but:.the in .charge and 'some ;of his friends . had securcd '£50 amongst them and - the woman wns saved. (Applause;). ; .These institutions , wero not acting as they were: for shortness,-of funds,, but because they,.wanted an .-extension, of iri- : torest. ,'//. y/ ' '■• - J ~ : "Appreciation, i • Tho Premier then: read a letter ho had received'irom mr, George Bootn, or Messrs. Booth and Macdonald-'(Christchurch),; which cotigratiilated the'Pririie Ministor ori'tho Financial Statement; it ; was just- what was; wanted to calm, the howlers;' there, was' no. need to fear the future.:- (Loud applause.); Sir Joseph proceeded furthor<to decry croaking. Ho had intended referring to the visit'.of thp American' Fleet,' but had not' tho time." ■ ..." " CO on." .. V- •' - • ; ". Members: " Go on! go onl Tako another half an hour." Tho Primo Minister turned to Mr, Massoy, who was; understood to object to' this. ■- ;-.' " Tho hon. gontloman says no," said tho Premier, . Ho (Sir Joseph) did not want to claim . any departure, from tho .Standing Orders. "If I did go-on I would_ flatten him out."' (Laughter.) * Tho Prcinior concluded with a referenco to what the Government had dono for tho country. . (Loud' ap'-' plause.) . ... . ; ,'.v Explanations. < Mr.'MASSEY, ,in a personal explanation, quoted Hansard to show that members of the Opposition' did not ..vote' for ■ the 25 per cent, 'increase provided for in the Land and Incomo Tax Assessment Act of last- session. - • '' " l; • " The PRIME MINISTER said his reference was to the division*list on the third reading, when tho only mbmbers who votod against tho Bill were two : tollora.' ' " " Mr. MASSEY admitted this, and said that they voted for tho Bill';because they approved of;a"great deal,of its contents, THE ESTIMATES. , PRISON CAMPS. Tho Houso-then-went into' Committoe of Supply oil tho. Estirnatos,' -and' genoral 'dis.. cus'sion'.ensnod on the "first'item;'-i.' Mr. J; .ALLEN.'-commented-'unfavourably on the excess of-'cxpondituro ; over appropria-. • ,tions in: a-number. :of:.items; : -.and icontendo'd. that tho-Estimates, should have contained , fuller information. ' Mr. HERIIIES suggosted that tho Departmental lists .of;,'officers- .with.'-'their 'salaries should bo in tho hands of members, and also the reports of the Mines, Prisons, and. othor Departments- bofore tho Estimates wero discussed. ' Ho alludod to t)io escapes of prisoners from tree-planting ; camps, arid' ; declared that thore could have been no proper classification and supervision of prisoners. Tho MINISTER Or JUSTICE (Hon:''J.M'Gowan) repeated his formor statement as to the prisoner who jumped from tho train.In sending tho prisoners to a tree-planting camp a cortain amount of trust was reposed in them, and ho contondod that tho results showod that 1 this trust had been justified. As to tho , man who was still at largo, it had not been shown that ho had done any harm to anybody. ' ' Mr. Ilorries: Ho broke into a hut. Mr, M'Gowan admitted that thore had been escapes from the camps, but thoy had had escapes from some of tho strongest prisons in the Dominion. Ho did not think fault should, be- found with , tho Government - for endeavouring to. ameliorate the conditions of the'prisoners. . ' ' "Neither Punitive Nor Reformatlvo." Mr. MASSEY said that'there was no desire on tho part of any member to blame.

tho Government for attempting to ameliorate tho condition of tho prisoners. It was understood that tho object of tho prison camp_ was to bo roformativo rather than punitive, but from what ho oould gather of tho methods in force at tho Waiotapu and Dumgreo camps thoy we're neither ono nor tho othor. .l'hoy wero told that prisoners were looked up in a hut together for eight or ten hours, and thus a man who was not hardpnod in. crime • might b'o thrown into enforced association with criminals of ■ tho moro vicious typo. From Dumgreo thoy had had stories of prisoners getting out of their huts at night and prowling round, committing burglarios. In tho morning thoy wero found to bo apparently securely locked up.

Mr. M'GOWAN said that theso statements had been inquired into, and found to bo without foundation. Ho did not know the sourco of such reports, but ho could easily suggest how thoy might arise, viz., through prisoners who were sont back to tho prisons for misconduct after serving their sentonccs; it was very easy for them to mako charges against tho management Of the camps.

iylie Wool Market. Mr. T. MACKENZIE endorsed the statement pririted in yesterday's Dominion that ■the wool-growers did not know the state of tho market as did the merchants. Tho Government should supply them with fuller information. , Ho foretold a further riso in wool. - ) Mr. HERRIES advocated higher salaries for officers of tho Agriculture Departirieut, and also for Nativo Land Court judges. Mr. WILFORD pleaded for higher wages in the Government Printing Office, and in somo sections of tho railway service. Ho asked that men in tho Petono workshops should bo allowed to work overtimo. Tho Government shbuld stop tho " importation of tho artisan class." Mr. BAUME advocated railway concessions to mothers and families and an extension of freo travelling for children attondiug schools, Immigration. Dr. CHAPPLE urged tho necessity of more population, and tho most careful solection of immigrants. (Those who woro most easily obtained wore those wo did not want. Wo must get, immigrants from the country, not the oitios. .. 1 ■ ' ' ■ Mr. TANNER quoted figures to. show that the greater number of-tho immigrants of the past few years had not been assisted by tho ■ Government or.'selected by tho High Com'.mjssionbr. /./"• • Tho Hon. W. HALL-JONES confirmed this statement/ Wo could not shut out thoso who paid their own fares.' Noarly. all tho men soloctod by tho High Commissioner woro farm labourers, and he could find work for plenty 6nch on railway construction if tho House would voto the money asked for. If 'tho'classification .of'tho.Printing Offico 0111ployoos did 'not como down this year it would next yoar, and'then would bo tho timo for considering increases in'.the salaries. Mr. WILFORD urged that bettor accommodation should bo provided for tho Stamp Dopartment in this pity. Mr. C. LEWIS argued that tho offoct of tho tariff as revised last year was to keep men in tho cities by .protecting local industries. In regard to corrugated iron tho Dominion was paying £7000 a yoar in: duty to keep a very few men omployed at a particular occupation; Ho thought it would tie better for them to go into tho country.

' Dr. CHAPPLE pointed to Scandinavia ns tho best country outside tho United Kingdom from which to draw immigrants. Mr. D.. REID indicated' that ho looked ,-,to immigration to . counteract tho tendency ;'of population to concentrate > in/tho towns. , Mr,'HALL said tho• succoss of tho Scandinavian' sottlers in Hawke's Bay proved that thoir raco woro excellent , immigrants. He complained of tho delay in -sattling Nativo lands. In advocating more liberal,treatmont of the railway servants, ho stated that if there woro a groat strikp in tho Dominion thoy would' readily join it. Ho also contended that tho rents of .Crown lands, especially bush that sawmillers had cut out, ' were--too-'-high. ' . Telephone., Concessions. • MrV'IiANG advocated an improved suburban train servico to 25 miles from tho cities. Tho -PRIME MINISTER-, alluding to a sug■gostion may" :by; Mr. Lang, said ■ tho peniiy-in-tho-slo't" t'elophonb system might bp tried at railway stations and olsowhoro. In reply tp other membors ho said ho was not sure ■that the Bonding of telegrams by telephone from subscribers could bo extended to tho oountry. Ho pointed out that thoro must bo a limit to tlio tolophono eonoossions that could bo granted. Main Trunk Timo. Table. Mr. MASSEY said tho proposed - Main. Trunk time-table would cause trouble, owing! to the' mail trains going at. night timo, through a part'of -tho country whoro thoro was great danger of slips. Tho lino would ,not v bo safe.for yoars to come. •

/ The"PRIME MINISTER said- no Govcrnm'ent;rwoUld:!ever consent to tho mail: ex--presses' leaving /Auckland in tho -morning. Tho: main- land 'ordinary . through passenger traffic could liot'.be subordinated to tourists, who-oould tako othor trains. Tho interests of people south of Auckland, who would not wish to' be deprived of tho day at homo,-also had to be cbnsidorotl.. They also had to romembor that : pooplo wished to cross tho Straits by night steamerßj Thoro wore the mails from Molbourno to tho Bluff to bo considered, and .tho mails from Sydney, via Auckland. In "'any largo tho important train'services that tlio business people 'rised loft in' tho evoning, and arrived_in' tlio morning. This was tho ease with trains' between tho Australian cities. They could • not expect business _ people to cross tho Straits by boats leaving at 1 o'clock in t-lid: morning. As' i: for- the cuttings ' betw'eon Taumarunui and Taihapo, thoro was provision ' for immediate communication with' stations so as to prevent trains running into dangerous places. Tlio track would bo a very fine ono when finished. They might get snow, something, but gradually tney_ 'might/adopt the Canadian mothod of keeping the trackclear. Tho viaducts wpro built to carry seven times tho/ weight of tho trains.