LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 51, 23 November 1907, Page 7

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

PUBLIC SERVICE!; SUPERANNUATION. '"- "POSITION OP THE TEACHERS. ''The Council, at 11. o,'clbck yesterday m'orningpCw'eht into Committee for the further consideration of the' Public Service Super-annuation-Bill,, .': ~-. ~' ~' '~ ftapse the'rr/erging he Teachers' Superanriuauon'lfilnd'ln the fund-established under this "Bill, struck out. motion'; 6f* the 7 !Attorney-General, whp>,explaincd ' that the. clause had .been kdpediiii) ,• thei.'otljor iHouse,' and., had ; ibeen found; ,pn-.consideration,'-,to bo unworkable for-several; reasons. .-Teachers-were not public ler.yants. and tho. conditions'of their service nnder the different-Education Boards were such that, considerable difficulties presented themselves ;.iri grafting their,', superannuation scheme on this one. The Government.would ■ carefully consider the subject during the rcc .?ss>7, and they hoped, to bring in next year.a measure to consolidate, the two funds. Trii Clause 42, which provides, for the police force -, coming under the scheme, some inschinery 'amendments we're made -at the injtyihce;of the Attorney-General. ' •■The Bill was reported, but;was immediately recommitted, and some. minor ' amendments wero "made."."! The Bill was again reported. ; Ministerial Statement— -A-Sound Scheme. vThe Attorney-General, in moving the third reading, replied to some criticisms of the-Bill that had appeared in the Press. Ho said the; scheme .had been described as neither • universal iri its scope nor'actuarialy sound, and ,ha<l'been stated to'bo inconsistent with the/, recommendations of the" Actuary, < Mr. Mdrrjs Fox. He wished 'to' correct these statements, and; to say, without any qualification, that'it'was clearly demonstrated-from the 'reports; and evidence before tho Public Acts Committee that the' Bill contained" unreservedly'the recommendations of Mr. Fox on the points in question. Ho wished to emphasise the fact that,the Bill as it stood was absolutely; sound. ■ ,He made'that statemerit' in .the presence' of Mr. Fox,- who had reported to. tho Government that tho scheme was as he had stated. 'It had been submitted also,tpr another high authority, Mr: F. W. Frankland. late Government Insurance Actuarr,. who had had ; very wide experience, and'he confirmed the view of• Mr. Fox that th?;-6ch.pme was absolutely sound.- Tho Government,'could claim that, the scheme would work out to the benefit of the contributors without, being a burden to'tho people of tho Dominion. ' : The Bill was read a third timo and passed; { ' :GAMINC AND LOTTERIES BILL. ■ (' : THE THREE CAMPS. At-the afternoon sitting tho Gaming; and Lotteries Act Amendment Bill was received from 1 the House of Representatives and read . a'first time. The ;Hon. Dr. Findlay then moved the second reading. After outlining the provisions, of the Bill, he said that m the other House and in the country there were three sections' of opinion oh .this subject, -which ■ might;. bo described as three camps. •' These were i the totalisator'camp, -the': bookmaker camp,'and what he might perhaps call tho Puritan ; ;camp.'- The last of these'wished to abolish the tetalisatbr, and with it all forms of The totalisator camp comprised the horse-racing pooplo, and' desired the retention of the totalisator. The bookmaker camp argued that opportunities for botting should bo allowed to men 'of small means through the bookmakers. There had at dif--1 fcre'nt. times been alliancos between theso groups.. The Puritan and: totalisator camps had'.combined to abolish the bookmaker. The.bookmaker camp and the Puritan camp had also worked togethor against tho totnlisa.tor. With this cobweb of interests, it was clear;, that any legislation that could bo effected mustvbe-of the nature of a compromise.; Ho hoped Councillors would accept it as the best measure that could at present be-passed'to. cope,.with a great and growing evil. Even if they disliked aomo parts of it, ho suggcstcd.lthat they, should accept itior the];sake of ; the good there was in it. The proceedings in the other House, wheroi one important clauso was only carried, by a singlo vote, showed that if the Council made radical alterations in tho Bill, the result might bo lo;;kill it altogether. Various Opinions. Hon. H. F. Wigram- congratulated the Government on the Bill, but thought betting on : . races should bo confined to the totalisator. He.hppcd the Bill.would bo amended in that *.Th'e' Hon. W. Beehan said bookmakers should-be restricted to a particular part of a racecourse.

.The Hon. C. Louisson agreed with this •uggostion,.- and hoped it would be made optional with racing clubs to license bookmakers.* r ■;■.■-,

;The?Hon. S. Tliorne George said the licensing of the bookmakers would not affect the

rovenues of the racing clubs. Ho regardod the Bill as a.Bill to encourage bookmakers. The odd penco of totalisator dividends should bo given to charities. Tho Hon. Wiromu Pere said bookmakers operating away from tho racecourses should be licensed, and should have proper offices. The walking bookmakers should be barred. Criticism and Approval. The Hon. Captain Baillio said that gambling should not bo legalised in any form, but this Bill would legalise both tho totali--sator and the bookmaker. The! Hon. W. C. F. Carncross said he hoped the new Act'would.bo properly administered, and not allowed to become a dead letter liko the present law. Tho abolition of. the doubletotalisator would result in concentrating all double-event betting in the hands of bookmakers. Notwithstanding this and other defects, however, ho approved of tho Bill as a whole. , ' The Hons. J. B. Callan, J. Marshall, W. W. M'Cardle, C. M. Luko, J. R. Sinclair, A. Baldey,' and T. Thompson gave general support to the Bill. The Hon. T. K. Macdonald. said tho Bill was all in favour of the bookmakers, and he would oppose it. The Hon. J. T. Paul said he would support the abolition of'th,e totalisator and the bookmaker. ~ The Attorney-General having replied, the second reading was carried on the voices. In Committee. Tho Bill was then .committed. At clause 35,, "racing club to issue licenses to bookmakers," the Hon. H. F. Wigram moved, to strike out the first three .'words witlr a view to testing tho feeling of tho Council as to the question involved. ■ The discussion was interrupted by the five o'clock adjournment. Tho amendment was not discussed, and the division was taken immediately the Council resumed at 7.30. The amendment was defeated by 14 to.. 9. , . The Hon. S. T. George then moved to mako tho clauso permissivo by substituting tho word "may" for "shall," thus giving tho racing clubs power to decido whether they will or will not admit bookmakers. , The Hon.: Dr. Findlay said ,that this, if carried, would kill the clauso as effectually as tho Hon. Mr. Wigram's, amendment would havo dono. No club would license bookmakers, if the choice was open to it. The .Council divided immediately, and the amohdment was defeated by 14 to 7. Draftsman's amendments were made in Clauso 36. The Attorney-General moved to omit Clause 37, which reduces by one-sixth the number of days on which tho totalisator shall bo used at all race meetings. He explained that the ,c]auso was inserted against the wish of the Government in tho Lower Houso. It was not a part of the general adjustment "of matters in the Bill as designed by tho Premier. The invasion of the' incomo' of tho clubs was considerablo without any such clauso. '

The clause was struck out on the' voices. The Hon. J. ]3.- Jenkmson failed to add a clause prohibiting totalisator hotting on credit. ". T

Tho Bill as amended was reported at 7.55 p.m., but was at once recommitted on the motion of the Attorney General to amend Clauso 31, Sub-clauso 4. ' ;The Attorney-General said that the Hon! S. T. Georgo had pointed out in tho afternoon that if a newspaper published tho numbbr of investors on each horsta, and the total amount of investments, those interested could easily calculate tho dividends, and thustho prohibition of tho publishing of dividends would be nullified:" 1 amend the,clause • by>prohibiting I the' publication of information dividend, could,bo Calculated. ... -. >r> .-'.'.;,;..':>.'

The Hon. W. C. F. Carncross isaid; tho proposal was : a reflection on the Press. Tho newspapers were conducted by mon who Were .too- honourable;'to,, try to evade tho law. They would be rather hard' hit by the Bill, but thoy would loyally observe its provisions. The Hon; J.' Rigg thought tho amondment should be' made so as to protect tho honest nowspaper proprietors against some who might evade tho law. He suggosted > that the amendment should apply also to • the case of starting prices. ..-,.•' Tho Attorney-General accepted this suggestion. He added ,that the. better class of journalism with which tho name of Mr. Camcross had .always been associated- was above any snch suspicions as ■ had been indicated, but there were nowspapers which would try to increase their circulation and their profits by publishing tho information referred, to.. Ho thought therefore that the clause should be made water-tight. Tho amendment. was carried.

Sub-clause i of Clause 31 was thus madb to read as follows:—" Every person commits ah offence, and is liable to a fine not exceeding twonty pounds, who prints, publishes, sells, or publicly exhibits any : newspaper or other document which contains.any statement as to the dividend paid oh investments on the totalisator in respect, of any horse race, whether run in New Zealand or elsewhere, or as to starting prices in respect of v any such race, or any statement from which such dividend or starting price might be calculated."

The Bill was reported .as amended, read a ihird time, and passed. The Council, at 8.15 p.m., adjourned until LI a.m. to-day.