HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 50, 22 November 1907, Page 9

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

CAMBLINC AND LOTTERIES BILL. The House of Representatives met yesterday nt 11 a.m. The Premier moved the committal of the Gaming and Lotteries Bill. He said the matter it dealt with was a- very difficult one

to cope with owing to the gradual nn.l xinique growth of racing. There were conflicting interests that required to be recognised, and the matter required to bo approached from the standpoint of what was practical; and to achieve success extremists on each side must moderate their views. The Government had endeavoured to bo practical ovor the matter, recognising a legitimate spnrt, and yet desiring to protect tho young of tho Dominion. Ho could speak from a long experience of public life, and he had had no more painful crises brought boforo him than those resulting from the evils attached to racing; and thoso evils tho Sill would seek to abolish.

Latteries. Explaining tho Bill, he said tho Dominion laws did not allow lotteries to bo hold within its own shores, and, that being so, surely it was an anomaly that they should be permitted to continue from outside sources. Mr. Jennings: Make them legal in Now Zealand. .Voices: No, no! n' 1 " 5 Premier: There was no proposal in the Bill to recognise the lotteries; on tho contrary, the suggestion was to mako tho law apply to those outside as it did to Now Zealand itself. Referring to tlio clause relating to.gaming houses, tho Premier recalled that juries had frequently refused to convict even on the plainest evidence. A Member: It is so all over the world. Tho Premier: There was a verv bad caso in Wellington a few months ago. " Under tho Bill, an individual convicted would havo the right of appeal to tho Supremo Court. An ondeavour no doubt would bo made to substitute an offender's right to obtain a trial by jury, but it was important tho present provisions'should stand. Ho showed that a distinction had been mado between chartered and unchortered clubs, and tho difference was made because a chartered club was verv often practically the home of some men, and in such cases they could not go too far. Betting at Sports. Referring to betting at sports meetings, ha said strong representations had been mado to him on this subject from time to time, and it was desirable to put it down. It was intended to confine betting to tho racecourse. The. present widespread hotting in the Do : minion was largely caused by the telegraph wiros having been freely used in rogard to every small meeting in tho Dominion. As to the provisions prohibiting the publication of results relating to tho totalisator, he intended also to have safeguards made that no cards containing the. prohibited information should ,be circulated,.and no such information should bo posted up. This was only fair to the newspapers. . Other Provisions. The provision directing the closing of tho totalisator-live'minutes before the advertised time'of a race would send tho money to tin l bookmakers, and- this had been thought un dosirable, and had been altered. The proposal to license, bookmakers had been criticised, but betting was to bo confined to tho course, and no doiibt the racing clubs desired to .have all money put on to the totalisator. That,- however, would give them a monopoly, and he pointed out that, remembering- that street and all other forms of betting wero prevented, and remembering also tho extent of-.horse-racing as a sport, it had been recognised that unless thoro was a compromise the legislation would not go on tho Statute Book at»all. No bookmakers nor their representatives had requested to have this clause put in tho Bill, (Hear, hear.) Those who were anxious to effect a sweeping reform in this matter must lay aside personal prejudices on either side to enable a compromise to be arrived nt. • : Views of an Authority. Mr. Hemes believed everyone would concede the evils of gambling, and ha was prepared to give tho Bill a fair trial. Ho proceeded that tho Premier had practically announced that because the bookmakers wero turned off the street they must be allowed on the racecourse to. punish the racing clubs. Without saying anything against the respectable bookmaker) he contended racing clubs had a right to choose-'-between the totalisator or the bookmaker; and the Bill should contain that option. . It was right, he procoodod, to legislate for a great ovil, but was jt fair, in doing so, to inflict hardships on the individualP This was possible under the Bill. The definition in the Bill of "race meeting" was bad; did it include a trotting meeting and any .gathering at which a ( horse race was held? That was-a question to be decided..' He held that the-inherent right of trial by jury should notybo taken away. (Hear, hear.) He contended in Clause 26 it was declared that if a man lost his money to a bookmakor, ho could' go and claim it again. (Mr. Wilford: That only applies to street betting and not to racecourses.) As to the publication of "tips," ho would not prohibit that, but ho would imposo a heavy penalty on those who gave wrong . tips." (Laughter.) Hβ could not understand why tips on outside races, such as tho English Derby, should not bo allowed. . Ho referred to loopholes in tho Bill which would permit the publication of starting prices. The, Premier: I have amendments to move ofithat matter.

Concluding, Mr. Hcrrics hoped the Premior would accept reasonable amendments, and tliqn the Bill would become a useful measure. This Bill should not bo treated as a party subject. Mr. Wilford. Mr. Wilford would do all he could to support the provisions that did. away with tote and- Street betting. This Bill would practically iflbolish "balancers," "twicers," "guesscrs," "welshers," and "snipe-book-makers," and that was a great thing. The reason, ho declared, the racing clubs wanted to keep the bookmakers off the course was because they desired a monopoly of the betting money on the totalisator, their share of. which helped them to' raise their stakes, carry out improvements, and assist their funds generally. Proceeding, he said, to bo consistent, tho betting on doubles should be illegal witlit bookmaker's ns well as on the toto. He would support the Bill for tho protection it would givo to tho youth of tho Dominion, and ho hoped, with Mr. Horries, that- tho Premier .would accept reasonable amendments. A New Question. Mr; Fisher, to give the Houso an opportunity of expressing an opinion, said ho would move:—" That in the opinion of this House the timo has arrived (1) when the Government should cease to participate in the- revenue from tho totalisator licenses; (2) that the number of race days throughout the Dominion should be reduced." Ho said it would bo an indication as to whether the race days should not be reduced, and also an oxpression of opinion as to whether the Government 'were to continuo to take proceeds from tho totalisator,

Mombers:-It will kill the Bill. Mr. Poole seconded tho amendment. Mr. Davey asked that tho two counts bo put separately. The Premier said Mr. Fisher was going tho right way to kill tho Bill. Mr. Fisher replied that sooner than jeopardise tho Bill he would withdraw his motion. Mr, Wilford: No, no. The debate was interrupted by the adjournment. On tho House resuming, Mr. Fisher's amondment was lost by 42 votes to !). Against the Bookmaker, Mr. "W. Fraser said they had been hnving all through the session Bills that were compromises, nnd here was another. Ho had known Governments that had had the courage of their opinions. While one straw was longer than another, ho proceeded, men would bet, and what the Government should do wns to regnlato' it. He would support those who wished to minimise hotting, hut he was not optimistic enough to believe flint they could oxto.rminate it. He could not help calling this a bookmakers' Bill. It would allow that which they had been trying for years to prevent—betting with bookmakers. Bookmakers, ho declared, Imd their friends in the House and in high places, but ho was not their friend. He would vote to keep tho bookmaker out. " Pity tho sorrows of tho poor bookmaker," be said, in reply to those who had spoken of their unfair treatmont. He favoured the totnlisator as the best means of regulating betting.

Mr. Major was against many' proposals in the Bill.

Mr. Rutherford said the Bill was a book' makers' Bill. ■ . . . :■

Mr. Joinings read a letter from a sporting writer of twenty-four years' experience who wrote of the evils of tho totalisator in conjunction with tho excessive number of races during tho year. Mr. Jenjiings said the menace to the youth of tho Dominion was becoming too groat, and it was right for tho House; without being ton puritanical, to curtail tho opportunities for gambling. Mr. Lawry .-mid tho Bill was a compromise between tho bookies and the parsons, and neither was satisfied with what they had got. Ho contended tho Bill should bo allowed to go to the country during the recess to be considered by the people.

Motion Carried. . At 4.45 p.m., tho Premier not desiring to reply, tho motion to go into Committee (tantamount to the second reading) was carried by 50 votes to 2. In Committee, A deal of controversy centred round Clause 2. sub-Section 1, which denned a bookmaker. The Premier said the definition was framed on tho lines of tho New South Walos Act, and that had worked very well. The subClause read as follow:—"Bookmaker" moan's any person who acts or carries on business as a bookmaker or turf commission agent, or who gains or endeavours to gain. his livelihood wholly or partly by betting or making wagers." Mr. Horrics moved to add tho words "and includes all bookmakers' clerks or agents."— Adopted. To tho definition of racecourso was added a place on which a "trotting meeting" wa& hold. Tho definition of "race-meeting" was extended as follows:—"And includes any club or association or body of persons, whether incorporated or established for the purposo of permitting, conducting, or controlling tho sport of horse-racing." ! - Tho whole , clause as thus amended was then passed. Post and Telegraph. Mr. Wilford moved to amend section 8 by removing the restrictions which prevent the use of tho post and telegraph in regard to racing messages. Ho did this to presorve the integrity aud secrecy of tho two services. The clause was maintained intact by 41 to 9. Trial by Jury. At Clause 10, prescribing the penalty tor using premises as a gaming houso, Hγ. Witford said he would at tnis stago divide the House, because this was the first clause directing that a man if sentenced to gaol should not be given tho right of trial by jury. It was a right that was allowed under every statute except this one. He objected to a man being declared a criminal for betting, and herded with criminals. '. Mr. Stevens would vote against .taking away the right of appeal to a jury. The Premier said there existed a right of appeal to a Supreme Judge. Mr. Wilford: But without a jury. The Premier recalled cases where juries had failed to convict oil tho plainest evidence. It was no good locking tho doors and leaving the windows open. Mr. Massey was in favour of the trial-by-jury right boing given. Mr. Herries was likeminded. Mossrs. Barclay, Major, : Symes, Stevens, and Wilford carried the debate on till 9 o'clock, when Mr. Wilford, rising to recount the origin and history of the jury system, was promptly ruled out of order. Ho'thereupon moved to havo tho bpoaker's ruling takoh. '

The motion was lost by 37 to 16. Mr. Wilford then moved a further amendment, and proceeded to read from an Encyclopedia on tho "jury system. • Tho Chairman said lie was reading his speech, and must not do it. " I move that you take tho Speaker's ruling," said Mr. Wilford, but tho motion was again lost by 27 to 26. ; Mr. Wilford now moved that tho imprisonment term, three months,: bo extended to six months, thus giving the party charged the right of trial by jury.—Lost by 28 to 24. Tho clause was then carried. Clubs as earning Houses. Section 12 prescribes that common gaming houses shall include club-houses in. certain cases. "■■■'.. Mr. Herries said that chartered clubs were exempt, and ho moved that clubs registered under the Unclassified Societies Act bo also exempted.—Lost by 39 to 17.. Clause 12 was then adopted by 34 to 20. At Clause 19, Mr. Wilford moved to make the alternative penalty for being- found at a gaming houso six. months' imprisonment instead of three. Ho said the object was to give the accused the.right of trial by jury. The amendment was defeated by 31 to 22. Clause 22, which gives the police powers of entry to common gaming houses and adjacent premises, was criticised by several mombers.. Mr. Herries. failed to carry amendments to confine the allowable breakago of doors and windows to the actual gaming promises, and to givo proportyowners, able to provo non T comp'licity, a right to compensation for damage out of monoys to be appropriated by Parliament. In connection with tho use of tho telegraphs at race meetings, tho Premier, replying to criticisms by Mr. A. L. D. Eraser, said that as Postmaster-General he had never discriminated against bookmakers or persons of any other calling, and he did not intend to do so, but . tho Bill was meant to confine betting to the racecourses. Clause 31 relates to tho publication of race and totalisator information. The Premier moved to prevent the publication of any. starting prices. Hβ also moved to prohibit any information, as defined in _tho soctipn, being "publicly exhibited." These amendments were agreed to. . . A now clause was added, at the instance of the Premier, to allow newspapers to come into the Dominion notwithstanding that they might contain matter contrary to tho intentions of the clause. Clause 31, as amended, ,was then adopted by 2S to 27.

Mr. Remington moved an amondment in the direction of abolishing the totalisator. The Premier said if this was carried it would kill the Bill. Tho amendment was lost by 37 to 17.

(Left sitting.)