LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 36, 6 November 1907, Page 9

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

' INFANT LIFE-PROTECTION,

.The Attorney-General (Hon. Dr. Findlay) gave notice* to< introduce Infant Life 'Protection Bill. • , r ;.. DIVINITY DECREES. On the .motion 1 of 'tho Hon. Sir G. M.,o'Rorke, the Divinity. Degrees Bill was mado '•n o'rder of the*day-'for.to-daj I '(Wednesday). DURATION OF fHE SESSION. COUNCIL TO SIT: IN ,THE EVENINGS. . Tho iAttorney-Geiieral : said : that the Premier. was-'making a statement' I .that' afternoon in 'another' place, giving l a lifet of tho Bills which-Uhcj--Government would -, attempt to pass,.'.'arid; those /which'they would not -attempt".'to: pass - this' session;Tho Goverment.' hoped to bo able to bring the session to''a. cloS6 : bri;.to-mprrdVv'''firtnight(Wednes-day ,-NpYember v 2oy."''-There - was, he .'need hardly ' say, a great deal of work to, bie done —•in conjpassjva very great deal—but the' . bulk/of:, it-was ' : noi of cpiitentious character, , and lie -'hoped,•.•'therefore,- that, ( with thb, assistaricb^w_;h6ri!:''members, they, would be able to''clos6 within" the timo lie had mentioned. ,He would have to ask the ..Council to -sit-the - evenings,, and to help him as they had done before with, the variojis Bills. He wqtil'd 'also', give notice at the proper time in to 'sitting'on Mondays. • /(n)'ivi als' pr ot; egti on bill. r,A. SHOOTING AT NIGHT. Protection,, Bill was recommitted.'""' : . '' ,v . ■ : On'tho motion the Hon. J. Rigg, clause 8;' sub-clause' 3,' wjuch prohibits shooting between ;'7:p.m;, and' 6 a:m., .was struck out. ' By; aniending another ~ sub-clause, this restriction 'as' to! hours was' made to apply to the ; opening morning and closing night of tho season. Several minor amendments wore made, and the Bill was then reported, read a third time, and passed. , THE LAND BILL. " INTERESTING SPEECHES. -. The.-.adjdurried, debate on the second reading' of' the 'Land Laws-Amendment Bill was then resumed. The. .Hon.' J.; Rigg (Wellington) said he had listened with' special interest to the speech of tho Hon. j, D. Oimond: . That speech 'indicated that' land legislation df tho Government would bo more effective than was supposed by many! Mr. Ormond had said.'he knpw ofi'nothing wrong in the land administration of tho colony ;beforo 1892. Naturally, what was done would not seem wrong 1 to a lafld' monopolist, nor' to one who .had' taken part, in. the administration that, was referred to. W* (Mr. Rigf*) wa s not #ogcthor .satisfied witt> tho Bill. It was the outcome of the political.- exigencies of''tho day.;: Owing to ,thq .vacillation of a' former Government the land question had assumed; such proportions as. to positively throaten tho existence of, tho. Liberal administration'-' ' The' pfesdnt Government had had to moot the difficult-situation thus created, r ( ■ Tho Right of Purchase, >" Reviewing tho leading features J. tho / Bill, Mr. Rigg alluded first to the diswntinunntie .pf.. the lease in, perpetuity with provision for lessees under that tenure \o convort to other forms _of leasehold... Speaking of .tho inducements offered under that head" the lion, gentleman said lessecs-in-perpctuitv should be enabled to "purchase tho freehold of their holdings at the original value. Thof.o leases were very unsatisfactory to the State and, would sooner, or later have to he resumedy 1 ". To'allow the tenants to purchase tho froehdld ?t,"the original valuo would bo equivalent to .the 'State buying them out at £95 each.'' ' .

" The Sheep and the Coats." for paymont, by a tenant of 00 percent! .of tlio capital Value of his holding, was one that, would not commend itself as a business proposition and, therefore, lip. did not approve of, it. The Hon. J. T. Paul had said that the measure was xftfxl in so far

lis it was leasehold, but bad in so far as it was freehold, and it appeared to him (the Hon. J. Bigg) that, apart from tho right of purchase clauso, it was only 10 per cent, leasehold. Ho hoped tho Council would help him in an endeavour to strike out the 90 per oont. clauso.,

Hon; J. T. Paul: "I won't help you to give the tenants tlio freehold at tho original value."

Hon. J. Rigg" On that wo can agreo to differ." Tho, Imp botweon. leaseholders and freeholders was well-known in another placo, but not in tho Council. Tho division, which ho proposed to call,for, as ho had indicated,, would enable tho sheep-to bo distinguished from tho goats. Tho unearned increment must bo reserved 'for tho poople. The Limitation Principle. Ho approved of tho principle of limitation expressed in tho BUI, and would like to sea it oxtendod, but he thought the method of computing the areas of tho different qualities of land for this purpose was too complicated. The timo must come When there would be a limitation of land of any kind or tenure held by any individual. Tho limitation •clauses of . last year's Land Bill were the most popular proposals over brought forward by this Govornment, and ho was surprised when thoy wero dropped. There should be limitation both of area and value. Tho lands administration had not been as active as it should /bo in rogard to the establishing of improved farm homestead settlements. Such settlements on poor land and with leasehold tenure had been very successful, but there should havo been many more of them. The scheme of preference at the ballot, was not altogether , satisfactory. A man with a family would not necessarily work a farm., hotter than another man. There should bo assistance for farmers' sons who had all that was necessary to make them successful settlors, except capital. In order,to provide !a fund for acquiring land for. settlements, 1 per cent., or £ per cont., should bo ; added to all Crown rents, and other land receipts. That would, be the best way to bring apout land nationalisation. (The present Bill, taken as a whole, was a building upon sand. It would require to bo done over again. \Vo needed a policy built on a deep and solid fpundation. Administration. Tho Hon. T. Kelly (Taranaki) roverting to 'tho discussion on the earlier land admihis-tratiori-'of Now Zealand, claimed that the statesmen concerned could riot bo suspected of wrong-doing., Everyone must respect the names'of Fox, Stafford, Domett, Whittaker, Bell, Yogel, Atkinson, Grey, Hall, Stout, and many others, but theso men; could, not bo'held responsible for every transaction that had taken place.! The lion, gentleman described somo of the land settlement methods of Taranaki, when lie was a member of the Provincial Govornment. The result had been that the donse forest which covered tho district had been cleared, and the country settled, in small farms, whose great productiveness at the present day was well known.- So far as Taranaki was concerned, there was nothing blameablo in the. Provincial land administration. What Is Sollallsm ? Alluding' to tho question of Socjalism' which' had been raised in connection with the Bill,' tho hon. member said the question was, what was Socialism P \ •

' iThe Attorney-General: "Hoar, hear. That's what I want to know."

■Proceeding; tho Hon. T. Kelly mentioned' a; number oT features in tho legislation and administration of Now Zealand which ho approved 'of&lilvingltajio (regarded athom, .as Socialistic. Mr. Ben Tillett, speaking? illCan torbury, had given -a definition of Socialism. tie, had said .that .the people .must ■talip the land , from the capitalists," they must take from them the capital, the banks, the commodities, the Government, tho Press —yes, oven tho ProSs—the law and tho polico, and ask thom to work. These remarks, so it was reported, were heartily, applauded, and seeing that the mooting was held in what used to'be a highly Conservative part of tho country, that fact was significant. He (the Hon. Mr.' 'Kelly) would not go so ■ far as that,' and ho did not supposo tho At-torney-General would.,. (Laughter.) - A Disillusioned Senator. Tho Hon. W. C. F. Carncross (Taranaki) speaking as, one who had helped to pass the land legislation of the late Sir' John M'Kenziq, defended the lease-in-perpetuity ai a good tenure for the settler. It made tho peoplo happy and contented, and that, at all events, -was good. Nevertheless, ho believed that the final word on the land question iiv. this country would be freehold with limitation. He would not say that he advocated this. When he entered political life, it was . his desire that all the land. of tho State would in tho future be leased. Ho recogni.sed.now, however, the very great pressure that would inevitably bo brought to bear by the Crown tenants to secure their freeholds. / j.Tlio Hon. J. Barr (Canterbury) said tho Bill was a decided and determined step in the right direction. Ho believed as peoplo were educated to care more for their fellows, tho ideal of leasehold for everyone would be realised. : There would bo 110 revolution. , 'The speaker was interrupted by tho 5 o'clock i adjournment. • " 'Continuing his speech at 7.30, the lion, gentleman said ho was fairly satisfied with tho Bill, but would have liked to seo :tho renewable loaso fixed for thirty-three yoars f(ir the first torm, as well as tho second. Ho •thought the Government was strong enough to have effected this. Socialism Again. iTho Hon. If. I' 1 . Wigram (Canterbury), referring to tho Attorney-General's remarks 011 Socialism, said tho term was not understood in tho same way by all people. _ He thought Dr. Findlay should define the kind of Socialism that .ho was in favour of.' ■Hon. Dr. Fjndlay: "I define it as tho class of Socialism wo have been having in this country for tho last fifteen years." The Hon. H. F. iWigram, proceeding, read from an anonymous letter to the Press a definition of Stato Socialism of an 'extreme typo. _ Hon. Dr. Findlay That's dated from Porirua, isn't it? The Hon. H. F. Wigram said that evidently that was not the Attorney-General's style of Socialism, but the people of tho Dominion, having beforo them such statements as he had road, would naturally like to know exactly what the Attorney-General's Socialism was. Uses of Largo Estates. Proceeding, the Hon. Mr. Wigram said lie preferred tho new progressive land "tax to tho limitation proposals of last year. It would allow somo of tho large estates to remain, and ho thought some of thorn ought.to re--1 main. Tliore was Longbeach, for instance, was the best Agricultural College in the Dominion, and was turning out trained farmers every year. It was also largely duo to big estates that New' Zealand live stock had such a high reputation. Regarding what had been said as to land administration in tho past, tho Hon. Mr. Wigram said lie believed thoro had been no dishonest actions on tho part of the ' statesmen of the past in Now Zealand, though mistakes had been mado. This Government also might make mistakes, but it would bo regarded by those who came after as an honest Government, and ho would like to seo it taking the same view of preceding administrations. Ho considered that the Government should withhold the bulk of tho remaining Crown lands from sale for somo yoars at least.

THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL'S REPLY. A LIGHTING SPEECH. 'J'ho Attorney-Genoral said lie would take the opportunity to clcar up'what ho felt that no member of the Council misunderstood, namely, his observations on Socialism. Nothing was easier than to misunderstand anything which one wished to misunderstand. It had been said that the land legislation of the Government was based on

Socialism, and ho had replied that the legislation'of the last fifteen years in this country was based 011 Socialism, and ho was proud of it. He repeated that now, and nobody could misunderstand it unless they wished to. A man's placo in public lifo was determined not by verbal definitions, but by what ho really did and said, and that was what ho appealed to. Those who preferred to emphasiso a word or phrase wore entitled to whatever capital thoy could ' niako out of his words.

Mr. Ormond's Criticisms. After briofly touching upon the remarks <jf other speakers, Dr. Findlay proceeded to deal with the speech of tho Hon. J. D. .Ormond, who, 110 said, was a roprosentativo of those reactionary forces tnat wero arrayed against tho Govornment in evory direction in which thoy sought to effect reforms. Ho felt that ho was entitled to reply at somo length to Mr. Ormond, because of that gentleman's high porsonal standing and becauso of tho somewhat severe remarks which ho had applied to him (Dr. Findlay). He desired to say, liowcv'or, that Mr. Ormond's speech was frank and courageous and was in tho best love and temper, with tho exception of ono or two passages. A Reference to History. Ho would' provo by referenco to history that his strictures 011 tho laud administration of tho period before 1892, which had boon objected to by Mr. Onnond, were fully justified by tho facts. Ho then read several extracts from tho book of tho Hon. W. P. EeevoS on the legislative experiments of Australia, N showing, inter alia, that in Canterbury and Otago, whero tho land_ in the oarly days was sold under tho Wakefield system at £2 and £3 an aero, while in Hawko's Bay, which, he pointed out, was Mr. Ormond's district, tho Provincial Government took advantage of a Qonoral Statuto to sell all land at an upsot price of five shillings an acre. The consequences were that in tho South, poor men' saved their money and acquired small farms, while in Hawko's Kay the' land was sold in hugo acres to wealthy men. In tho South, settlement conditions wore enforced, limitation was secured and there was money for public worjts, while the Northern .provinces wore • on tho brink of insolvency. Settlement conditions woro disregarded with tho connivance of those in power. Dr. Findlay quoted further from the High Commissioner's book, allusions to the "peacocking, spotting, and gridironing," which, lie said had dofacod New' Zealand until to-day, and wont 011 to give an oxtract 011 tho prevalence, at ono time, of diimmyism, which was described as frequently involving perjury, and boine as common as'smuggling formorly Was in England. Tlioso interested with the management of affairs could not ho wholly absolved from responsibility for theso things, but morally speaking they must be judged by the standard of their times, and the standnrd of public duty had changed. Hawke's Bay in tho Past. 1 - . • Referring to tho poriod when the Hon. Mr. Ormond was Government Land Agent, and afterwards Provincial Superintendent also in Hawko's Bay, the Attorney General strongly condemned the transactions in Natwo lands that wore then permitted, and referred to other dealings to show that the Crown land was sold much too cheaply. Grown Lands for Selection. Ho had obtained from Mr. Kensington, figures showing that from 1895 to 1907 6,394,219 acres of Crown land had been opened for selection. His answer to Mr. Ormond on this point was that tho Government could not have opeuod moro land than it had, but' tho statistics still showed that tho demand was unsatisfied. As to tho prophccy that the landowners, small and large, would contrive to put tho present Government out of office, that was not likely, seoing that the aim of the largo owners was always aggrega-' tion, whilst what the small settlor wanted was subdivision. If the Government were out "of office, and 'Mr. Ormond and his friends took 'their; places, there would be a stepmother to tho, Liberal Government's legislative children, 'who would very soon asphyxiate them oi\t of existence. (Applause.) . Tho Bill was then read a second timo on the' voices.'-'' FIRST READINGS. The Government Advances to Settlers Bill, Local Bodies Loans Act Amendment Bill, Hutt Railway and Road Improvement Bill, and the Post Offico Savings Bank Investment Bill were recoived from tho Lower House and read a first time.

NATIONAL ENDOWMENT BILL. SECOND BEADING CARRIED. The Attorney-General briefly moved the second reading of the National Endowment Will. He believed tho Council, was generally in sympathy with tho measure, and lie suggested that it would bo inadvisable to open up tho question of the area to be sot asido. Short speoches, oxpressing moro or less of approval of the Bill, were delivered by the Hons. J. E. Jenkinson, J. Anstey, T. Kelly, R. A. louglinan, J. T. Paul, and W. Beohan.

:Tho second reading- was carried on the voices, and the Council then wont into Committee on tho Bill.

,Tlie Bill was reported without amondment., and tho Council rose at 11.45 p.m.