HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 9, 5 October 1907, Page 8

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

LAUD AMENDMENT BILL. , DISCUSSION CONTINUED. \ Discussion was . continued in the House of Representatives in the afternoon on tho Land Amendment Bill. Debate Wanted. ' . \ : Mr. H. J. . H. Okoy (Taranaki) , poin'tod to tho,fact that tho strength of the Government was as four to ono, in .' comparison with tho Opposition, 1 and if it had not been for the members of tho latter,party the debato the previous night would have gone by default. There should be the fullest ■ discussion, .on..this measure, it w-as only right' therefore'thai a Government momber should have risen with each Opposition speaker. Thero .was also the fact that many members had pledged themselves, to the free-, hold, and they, should give their opinions ;of tho Bill. -''Ho ■.proceeded to likdn'the "freehold" proposals of the Bill to bad coin,- which, when it was obtained, depreciated in' value. The Bill would not suit the North Island on account of the difficulty single men starting life would experience in getting land.' It would retard settlement in the unopened back blocks. 'It was'such a, measure as one would except from a Ministry that contained ;two';bachelors. (Laughter.). Ho spoke i'against the-conversion oKthe l.i.p. at the present-day valuation—at a-tfme when values were at th'oir highest. As to the 66 years' tenure and its conditions, thero would ho hardship in- , '.flicted becauso at the latter-end 'of his l lireja : man':would have to;pay high rent: The proposals of the' Government in regard,to paying off 90 per cent, would not remedy this. - Hon. T. Y.Dunoan's Views. ' '■''".'The •Hon/-T;'-Y; Duncan said that with tho now Government came new ideas, and it was only natural that there should bo an endeavour to show that these new ideas were better than the old ones..(Hear, hear.) Ho hoped some remarks of his in reference to the .old.Bill, and also tho new, would not occasion offence. 'A detailed criticism of the Bill, bowevpr, ho would 'reserve till the Committee stages.'He was not satisfied with some of tho clausos, but his ideas as to how they, could bo improved would ba given •later oh/ —He called ; 'on all mombors .ito go into this groat question of land legislation very carefully and with-an elimination of party bias, and then, perhaps, they would produce" a very rgoqd Bill; (Hear/'hoafO-Beforo he i:(Mr, Duncan) loft office, .a now Land Bill was contemplated."-The late Mr. Soddonand he had gone into tho subject prior to the former's departure .for Australia, and they held the heads ' of .some of the proposals of tho new■ .'• Bill.-' ■'.. .'...,:. v;. ■.-. ..;.:■■:' The Hon. B. M'Nab: Many of those clauses are old ones.. < - Mr.' Duncan: I know . thoy. are.' Many of tho clauses in tho new.Bill -would bevas'gdo'd, perhaps, as those ■in the 01d.8i11... _ , '- ■ , ; Foundation of Coyernment;Majority., ■ "I .believe,!' 'proceededilr/'Duncan, .^.".that'.- jthe/'passing;,of '.th'd'.Lau'd .'Act, '•r'atid'-'itlie vAdyancesi' ;:to'} Settlers Act,.. laid the ' fdjin'datidn : ;;fpr;;-. the;; : ,l^rge . Government -;.;majorities':.;:•' iii ..{this' House." , ■"This'-'vwaa i ; 'esp'ecially->' i so in regard to country ''mbihbers.''■•'■'■' A ticklish Question. •;. ;, : '•'■': Thelato.Mr/J; .M'Konzip had said .that-land' settlement was one of the', -most ticklish one could :.tackle. It was so comprehensive.. Great care required to -be taken as to how land .should bo treated if the' 'best results were to. be obtainedlfrom. it. Sndden changes wero bad.. "If yon-cannot treat the land properlyyoii'j'had betteri.como. off and-be a , •i stump orator or..a -lamp post';''-!,cried-Mr. Duncan with a flourish-of an varm (laughter)-.;, He.,went;pn to speak V,.of,'-,the nreqiiirdm'drits; of; ; the'i different; portions of • the Dominion. Each de-! i ;manded separate treatment. It'was: i-:i ; impossible, to suit every part by a' A successful meato bo so .-. , e]asfcic| .: that'a,Minister; who came to.know by, ;ex'periouce,the' -requirements -of each .district;;shoulolf:haye power,to specify ■y.Bpecial.cdiiditions.-;- When he-was in ;with : ;.the'knowledge -he had ac-. '/quired',.; Sometimes suggested 'certain had received the reply: "Oh,'there is no law to do that.". Ho had:retorted,' "Was there any law:to prevent him doing.it?"; and if there was, not he would do' it—and he had done it. There should! be> provision to allow tho Minister' to act in this -way. . It would riot hoi sufficient to lay down conditions fori different' provincial' ; evenj this would be too wide. More lati-; ' tude should be - given to th'e*Min-' ister'.of Lands; than, in itho past. . Some Retorts. \ Mr.. Duncan ;• wont on to speak of' 'the freehold arid .'leasehold/ generally.; It was tho cry against tho freehold; that had caused agitaton for it onthe part of the l.i.p. "'settlers'." "It will'tell the. ' Lyttelton Times,' and the.hon. member (pointing to Mr. Lauronson) that they hare both dono raoro to raisb, tho cry of freohold than anything olso in the Dominion." Proceeding further on the subject of agitation, Mr. Duncan declared that"workers should.work moro and talk less," and assist tho progress of tho Colony as it should be assisted. ■ And here ho must have a word with InV friend, Mr. ■ Fowlds, the single-' taxor (laughter). It :was all very! woll to say in Queen Street, Auckland, that the land should pay all: -these taxes, but ho took caro to see •that tho extra taxation was kept out of the towns (laughtor). Mr. Duncan said ho could tell somo sccrots of tho difficulties of getting land for settlement, and the mothods owners had rosortod fo.in order to raise the price. Ho had not. time to do so now, however. He would . reserve them for anothor day. Mr. Frasor: I wish yo'u would tell us (laughter). Mr. Duncan: Oh! I'll tell you before long. Ho concluded that tho proposals of the Government on this matter contained much good. General Criticism. Mr. C. Lowis (Courtrinay) said one result of tho Government proposals would be to set tho 66 years, the 999 years, arid the 33 years' tenants against each other. Referring to the clause providing for tho filing of a complote record of the original state of the land taken up on lease, so as to arrivo at tho value of the improvements in tho future, ho declared it would .not improve tho present condition of- things. Tho .whole -question of improvements was ono in which' there was much sham and iirjuosturo. •In tho present case, unless)there was a better definition of what constituted : improvements, tho settlors would not rccoivo justice at the end of their; terms. Ho would also like to seo somo; difference in tlie method of assessment for the purpose.of taxation and for tlie purposes of the Bill. Ho was getting very tired of the state of' affairs in which very few peoplo took

any interest in a public measure that did not directly concorn themselves, and ho was going'to try to remedy '•■ thafe.'by. measures • that-woro'brought; forward, so that as many peoplo as possiblo would bo affected thereby."' North Vsjand^.Styithi Mr. W. T. Jennings expressed satisfaction,with, the, Bill,, and tho friendly spirit in which -the House had received .-- He regretted'-that tho Minister of Lands should bo, like his predecessors, ;.a Sputh,lslande.r.;.,, : .Threc-nfths of tho ; ,monoy;spent,,.under,-.,the Lands for Spttlomon't Act ;had.been spent in the .'South"lsland,V.li,ut'')io admitted that ..'.it ,was'!rieeded,'.tbdro." Few who' did not,know, the district, .could conceive of the ;.under which tho . settlors of the King Country laboured, lowing to /tho conditions of. tho leases , of Maori lands.!,' ...A- lot of tho talk ■about .the, big fortunes made in farming, was. unfounded. ,He agreed with ...tho .member, for.Oamaru that taxation ~,rather. tl)an..,bo .piled, on the settlors .slipuld,bp. imposed upon wealthy newspaper owners, merchants, and others ..in.tho, .cities.'. Ho would vote for the „r.ight,„of ..purchase,,,of,,tho freehold at ~.the.,original, ,valu'.o.. : ,.Tho pioneer set- ', tiers .deserved;to .be paid for going out , as they.did, into the back blocks, away '.from the.advantagbs;'bf civilisation. ~ r ,Mr.., Ross (Paliiatua) congratulated the]: Minister,., for ..Lands upon the '.changes''made in the Bill since last session. ...... Education"fori Ministers. , >He- wished"'that ■'■ some of Mr. M'Nab's colleagues had accompanied him.'on, liis travels(through the' country'during tlib rccessr. Had they dono .so, ~thoy, might, now.,have been seen Helping,him,to obtain the freehold for ~'tfye, settlers... .;A,,GO,,yoar or a 33 year .lease would.not satisfy those who wore .'working', the land." Ho thought tho Ministry' should have realised that . people'who were ndt'.'satisfied with the 999 years'; lease,''.w'6uld not bo satis.fied,with' anything-Jes3 advantageous, Wd should, have known that the only 'satisfactory tenure was tho freehold. (Tho State's, Reversionary Interest. •■ ,/It was most'ullogical to deny tho •pioneer'-''settler-. 1 the 'right to acquire- . the,freehold . at'.-the- original value, •'while allowing othervsottlcrs to take up land, as was proposed, with tho option of purchase at that value. The concession of the freehold at the present valuation ;was equivalent to asking a'man to pay'for. something which >lie'already "possessed;' Tho freehold should. be purchased at tho valuo of, the State's reversionary interest, which was' equivalent to, purchasing at the original value. ','Tho State was really getting : "from the tonants'.of Lands for Settlement estates only 3 , .per cent, on the I 'capital invested, but was paying . 3J- -per-: "cent, on that capital. To allow t-he'sottlers to buy tho freehold at- the' I '-''original : valuation w6uld.therofore.be a profitable transaction for.the'-StatoV-" Mr. Symcs (Hawera) expressed appreciation of the' Speech dolivercd by, the member'fof'OifmHVu, and thanked him for thomany kindnesses ho had done for the' settler's ■•' of tho Hawera district during his'term of office as Minister'' of . Lands..■ .The speaker hoped, with'.the ;irtbmher for Court--'•oiiay, that'the'-Bill'would bo treated' 'in' ' Committee" i: iri tho same temperate and'Yeasbiiable way, as it had 'been dealt with'by'the Lands Com::mitt'ce." ' It would then becomo a measure'that they" cou'ld'all ho prould of. , Scientific Farming.;.: ' ;'"', The highly technical 'development of , modern farming was a strong reason why the freehold, which made a nian. tako tho most-interest in tho .land, should bagranted to the settlor. Tho only "equitable arrangement was that tho freehold should bo conceded at the-original;valud. r :.Ho'know of backblock .farmers wW had no school to which' 'to''s~on'd('thcifChildren. Whore .'didi:t-he unearned lincroment come in ■ •■-with•ithem?.-;or::what higher price •■(could. a"man pay; for- tho land than iito .have his.(children grow, up in ab- • -solute ignorance P.-,:iHe had shown the •'Minister for.''Lauds.'-holdings whero of'•thenr'7,'ould livo if they •'had'tile •'land"asi''a'igift. Ho knew '-settlers who-had-'t'd pay 50 per cent. > Of the''Value'of-thoir-products to 'got 'thohi to'market.'-Thero was ho. such thing as- unearned ''increment'' in such cases.'" (A'-'Membcrsfii-'Well-earned !): ■ ■" Yes, ; -'paid for-four times overl" Costly-Improvements* > ■'■•■ " ! "Under' 'the •• present -valuation sys- ' terii, ,: lid' iiiari'oyer.'gbt tho full valuo (for lii's/improvement's. It cost liim .'(the speaker)*'£o'per acre to burn his 'bush';a'ft.cr|;'it'\yas''felled, becauso he' 'had,'tb v chdp .it'sd'as iiot. to.burn,his' '.'neighbours out.( That instarico would 'show , liow''iriippss , ible!it was to deter''>mirie''tho',Valu'e ,of;improvomon'ts somo years.''' after thpy/'Tyb're made. The ,p.r.p\'system" was';'tho best tenure .;this : ;coiintry,.overjiia'd, but it should .'.havo,',been'improved!'by allowing the ' money \ liy,''instalments'.Rafter)'.,ho had occupied the"land,fpf'ten years. Ho did 'not," however,' approve''of tho deferred payment system, under which the' settler had to keep up the regular in-stalmen.t3.v,wliether-;he had the money or nbt. :t ;'■ ' ; ' '■'.''.'' : *'].'•'■'!">'■?■ '.-• "" An " Unholy Alliance." , Mr. F. W. Lang (Manukau) said he ■ could 3 'h'dVdly''congratulato the Minister on the reception of tho Bill. Had it;.not, been,..f,qr, ; the Opposition_mem- , her , rising after' anotherj the debate '-'■could liardly _havo :j 'ucen kept going. had they'nbt'heard tho views of hidro.'of the Government supporters? 'Why"' werd the''''"land roform■drs'i . ..'arid' tho .-members of. tho Lands' ;V Committoo'•','• silent ? ' One 'teo silent'.'" Oiio'could-not help think"in'g'there riiiis't"ha'vo"been an' "unholy alliance", iii:'this'matter. He could not see how tho present Bill and that of last;.year could be called in any 'seiisp; tho'same .'measure. Tho Govdr'nment'had'bperi adopting tho ideas 'of i lib' Opposition'.'" ; There was the graduated land tax,'' which had boon advocated by several • members of the Opposition; though not for purposes of confiscation, but for revenue. The Opposition policy" of tho freehold hM been adopted '- ih;!!ari unsatisfactory form.,, The,hpm.pstcad systom was to ho re-enacted,' as suggested some years ago by the leader of tho Opposition. The giving of. facilities to employees on renewed' estates to acquire sections thereon was, another Opposition suggestion. : ''' '• An Offer to the Minister. . Ho now wanted to suggest that the Minister should withdraw, his Bill until noxt'sessiori, and iii'tho mdantimo tho Opposition could draft a new measure for him. It would"iiot differ any more from tho present Bill,than the present Bill differed from that of la»t. year, but it would bo entirely satinfactory to the settlers throughout the country. Tho present Bill did : not satisfy tho freeholders,' tho land reformers, the Crown toiiaiits,""nor any of tho parties concerned. The ...member protested against clause 69, ,wliich gives the Govornmont power ito acquire land within fifteen miles of any borough for workmen's homes. Stonewall Foreshadowed. The clause providing for the adoption of tho Government ta.xing valuation as the basis ,ot: compensation for resumed estates would,' if passed, cause an ' outcry throughput the country.' The great amount of discoiw tout already.shown in connection witli tho Government valuations was well known, and members would bo justified iii using all the" forms of tho

House to prevent that clause becoming law, oven to tho point of being carried out of tho chamber. (Cries of '" Chair.") " No Baohelors Need Apply." Mr. Lang wont on to advocato the right of purchaso for holders of Jeases-in-porpotuity. Ho objected to tho powers givon to tho Minister and the Land Boards by the Bill, and ho protested against clauso 49, which had been: appropriately entitled " No bachelors need apply." Mr. Poland: Personal interest again! (Laughter.) Mr. Lang suggested that tho clause should be amended by placing bachelors under a certain age, say twontyfive, in a better position in regard to preference at land ballots. That would show that ho. was not speaking for himself. (Laughter.) Inconsistency. Mr. P. M. B. Fisher said he did not approach this question as a denizen of a town who know nothing about country life. He had experienced all tho hardship of bush settlement; and tho memory of it would last him a lifetime. Proceeding, he said that ho was in favour of every l.i.p. settlor getting tho freehold on equitable value. He would suggest that a clauso be dovised that would meot the case fairly. Ono difficulty he was faced with was the- question of whether the Government should bo united on tho question or have individual views. .Last year he pointed out tho 1000 acres, and the £50,000 limitations existed, and tho £50,000 'clause was declared by the AttornoyGeneral and other members of tho Ministry to bo a vital part of tho Bill. It was also declared. that no Crown lands should bo sold—that was Vvital point of tho Bill also. Where was that provision now? It was met in a spirit, of conciliation. He would show that Government members wero as much opposed to tho sale of Crown lands as himself. .(Hear, hear.) Ho then -quoted from former speeches of the Premier, the.Minister for Labour, the Hon. J. Carroll, and the Hon. J. M'Gowan to prove this.' Tho Minister for Education had said —Fancy tho absurd idea of balancing a piece of God's land against a piece of money. Now. they proposed, to balance nino million acres! A Minister remarked, that there was tho Endowment Bill. Mr Fisher proceeded that tho At-torney-General was also in tho same category. Two years ago every member of the present Ministry had voted against tho sale of Crown lands, yet now they proposed to do so. Tho optional system, he said, in reply to an interjection from the Minister of Lands, meant giving tho freehold. Continuing, ho said ho had never believed in the elevation of a single taxer to tho Cabinet, and the Minister, .of Education ought either to leave the Cabinet or trample his convictions under foot. Mr. Fisher proceeded to show that the Minister of Education had- said that tho Nr.tivo lands would ba given at the freehold, and the Minister of Lands had said elsewhere that this was not so. Tin's' showed tliero was divided opinion in tho Cabinet. Ho (Mr Fisher) had submitted his views on tho question in 1905, and ho need not repeat them now. As to tas- ' ing city. properties, to do so would not bo logical, because they wore fully' occupied, and ho showod that, while the graduated land tax for tho Dominion for tho year onding March 31, 1907 otaoin etaoino ctaoinshrdlu lington City Council collected hi rates for tho same period £124,000. In conclusion, ho said members individually should vote on this question for what they considered was in tho .best interests of tho country; and, as for himsolf, it was .not necessary for him to follow party viows, becauso ho belonged to no party. Mr. C. Lauronson's Views. Mr. G. Laurenson (Lyttelton) said that tho mOvoment for land reform' started in 1892, and a definite step had now boon taken. Ho would like to have seen it possiblo to hold on to tho wholo of tho Crown lands, but he recognised that somo compromise had to be made with tho other side. Tho 999 years' lease had been adopted as a compromise, becauso of the opposition to tho Government proposals at the time. Clauso 66, dealing with method of valuation, mot with attention from tho speaker, who asked what more could bo wanted. Ho showed that in tho acquirement of eight estates £179,000 had been ■ paid above the land tax value. , Ho suggested that the land tax valuo plus ton per cent, was an equitable basis to go upon. "Wo will go in for land reform until wo get it," said Mr. Laurenson, and until thoy showed tho people that there was something better- than filling the slum's of the cities/ and bringing down the population of the country districts. A Forward Policy. Mr. T. Mackbnzio (Waikouaiti) agreed with tho cutting up of the large estates. Regarding tho granting of ton per cont.vovcr tlio valuo, he did not think this quite met tho caso. Ho: contended moro competency could bo shown by tho Land Purchaso Department. (Hear,hear.) Ho referred to former Land Bills that had been abandoned because the mandate of the people had not been obtained, but had this Bill-received the mandate of the people? Yet, ho hoped, with somo modifications, that tho measure would bo put through, and that finality on the subject would bo attained. Dealing, with tho limitation fixed by the Bill, ho thought that, if a man had not abovo a certain area ho should be allowed to sell tho whole of it to ono person. In conclusion, ho spoke for a forward' policy and further borrowing. There' was no .reason why '• irrigation and re-grassing should not bo gono in for. . Socialism and Religion. Mr. James Allen (Bruce) claimed the fulfilment of Ministerial promises or irrigation works in Otago. He was sorry for the mombcr for Lyttelton, who emolled himself under tho flag of tho Minister for Lauds. That flag was to be nailed to tho mast, but 'now it had been dragged into the dust. Tho Minister should have warned his followor before. Mr. Allen proceeded to argue against Socialism, alleging that it was opposed to family life and to religion, and arguing that'even if somo of those whom he addressed did not go so far as that, such was tho logical development of their ideas on property. Ho quoted a passago from the Socialist writer, Kanfmann, professing that ono 'object of Socialism "I was "to suppress religion." He also read a passage from Belfort Bax, the well-known Socialist, stating, "tho first word of religion is a lie." Such ideas as theso wero being promulgated in Now Zealand. Mr. Lauronson rose to a point of order, but tho Speaker pointed out that the member for Lyttelton had himself spoken on the subject of Socialism. Mr. Laurenson characterised Mr. Allen's -extracts as "Continental rubbish which wo don't recognise." For the Freehold. Mr. C. E. Major (Hawera) said that all tho tenants under tho Lands for Settlement wanted tho freehold; they wore ready to pawn everything they had to get it; and it would ho moro to givo thorn tho option. He commended tho Minister for the provision regarding tho valuing of properties, awl ho hoped that this clause would help to molio palatablo to tho settlers other clauses they might not be in agreement with. Ho thought the "transfer" clauso could ho improved so as not to bang too hoavily on tho

settler; and more elastic conditions should apply to pastoral leases. Ho had listened to the speech of tlie Premier, and had wondered —Was this the man who produced that wonderful budget, becauso there seemed to bo so much that was half-hearted about his statements. Tho eternal right of the freehold was handed down from the centuries. Freehold with Limitation. Mr. Hornsby (Wairarapa) said ho had como to tho Houso pledged to a course, and ho was going to advocate a freehold with strict limitation. If they could start all over-again ho would bo a Land Nationalist. If il-ey could not got the limitation ho would ho against the-freehold. He was also opposed to selling any moro of the Crown, lauds. The granting of (lie freehold at the original value v-juUl meet with his support, and ho would give the freehold to the. Lands for Settlement tenants, but under terms that would prevent accumulation. He would bo in favour of dividing an acquired estate into two, allowing cue half to be open to selectors from all parts of tho colony, and reserving *he other half for tho peoplo in the district. Mr. Hogg (Masterton) said 'tliil ii" limitation' of area could be instituted under conditions that would promote peace, prosperity, and happinoss, it would go a long way to remove his present objection to tho freehold. Ho was pleased with tho Bill that was just passed, because' it aimed an effectual blow at land monopoly. • A proper distribution of lands—not waste lands .—seemed now to bo within reasonable distance. Notwithstanding all that had been said about it, ho believed the 999 years' lease had done goo'd for tho country; Tho Hon. Sir William Steward said that some of tho cardinal principles in tho last Bill woro incorporated in tlie present one, though, perhaps, in differforms. Ho dealt in a genoral way with the various provisions. Tho Anti-Socialist Cry. • Mr. H.'.G. Ell behoved that the Bill would bo acceptable to the country as a whole, though it might not meet entirely with tho approval of the cities. The Bill maintained tho leasehold, end should therefore meet with the approval of those who did not want the lands alienated. Ho deprecated the endeavour to raise tho anti-Socialist cry, as was done in Australia. < Air. T. K. Sidey ofTered his congratulations on the Bill, and hoped tho 'Minister would administer it for many years. ' Tho debato had not concluded when we went to press. > ■ j