THE LEGISLATURE BILL.

Clutha Leader, Volume XL, Issue 43, 28 November 1913, Page 2

THE LEGISLATURE BILL.

SECOND BALLOT REPEAL. AN ANIMATED DEBATE. WELLINGTON, Nov. 24. Tho House resumed at 2.30 p.m. in committee on the Legislature Amendment Bill. Before calling on the business of the day Mr Malcolm (Chairman of Commi'ttoefi) made the following statement:—'"J'ho committee was occupied

almost continuously the whole of last week with the Legislature Amendment Bill. Though the debate was the longest on record no progress was made. 'There have been occasions in Parliamentary history when the Chairman, in order to deliver the committee from a deadlock, luus disregarded the Standing Orders and insisted on the business of the conntrv being proceeded with.

This was the commentary ol Sir -Maurice O'ltorkc, the then Speaker, on one such case as recorded in the journals." Mr Malcolm here read a statement from the. chair by Speaker O'ltorke in 1881, in which he indicated that the Speaker had power to intervene to stop a deadlock by ignoring the Standing Orders. Continuing, Mr Malcolm said, "We all know that the majority must rule and tho minority must sooner or later submit to superior force. I am not prepared just at this stage to follow the precedent quoted, in which tho Standing Orders were ignored, but I shall from now on use to the utmost limit the. powers tho Standing orders give, and they are very wide powers, to bring this deadlock to an end. I trust this intimation will be received in the same friendly spirit in which it is made, and that others will support me in my effort to maintain the reputation and efficiency of Parliament."

Sir J. (I. Ward (leader of the Opposition) contended that the position today was vastly different from that of 1881, therefore the remarks of Speaker O'llorko had no bearing on the present position. His nide did not want to come into conflict with the Chair, thertv fore lie asked Mr Malcolm to say: (1) Whether he proposed to set aside the Standing Orders as laws which governed the business o| the House:' (!}) Whether he was prepared to take on himself the responsibility of preventing members from moving and sneaking to amendments:' (It) Whether memliers were to have the right to speak four times on any question in committee 'i Sir .1. (i. Ward then indicated that his party wotdd allow the short title and the next clause to pass without further discussion. He presumed that the Prime Minister would then move his proposed amendment to Rive members an • opporunitv of the second reading debate. Hon. W. F. Mass.ey (Prime Minister) controverted Sir J. (i. Ward's interpretation of the Standing Orders, which, he .said, had no relevancy to the <iuestion at issue. He claimed that there were many precedents which brought the present deadlock on all lours'with that of ISBI. The discussion then ended and the short title and Clause "J were passed without discussion. Hon. F. M. H. Fisher moved, without comment, a new clause as follows: "The Second Hallot Act, 1908, is hereby repealed; the Legislative Amendment Act, 11)10, and the Legislature Amendment Act, 1911, shall hereafter be read and construed as though all references therein to a second ballot were omitted."

Asked to explain the clause, Hon. F. M. H. Fisher said that it provided for th« rrpral of the second ballot. Sir ,1. (!. Ward said that the repeal of the second ballot had never been in issue before the country. Members had iifver been pledged to it. True, the repeal had been advocated in the House, but with the distinct promise that there would be some substitute. Hon. W. F. Masscv (Prime Minister) said that his side was distinctly pledged to repeal the second ballot. The Act should have been repealed years ago. Ii bad had a most demoralising- effect wherever it had been in operation. The second ballot had up to the present, given no adYantag.es to either party, so it could not matter if it were abolished.

Mr 0. W. Kussell (Avon) quoted 'Hansard' showing whore .Mr Massey advocated a. substitute for the second ballot. He lipid that the bargaining which had gone on in the past had been instituted by the 'Ho form Party. The disc.Utt.ion proceeded along general linos, tho CJovor.nmont being acousod of indulging in the bargaining which Mr Masse v condemned. Mr llufvsell declared that the debate would end in 10 minutes if the Government promised to .submit a substitute next year. Tho Hou.se resumed in committee at 7.30 p.m. Mr Glover (Auckland Central) continued tho debate. At the close of his .speech the Chair man announced his intention to apply the guillotine. He said, "1 think I have had allowed a fair time for di.scus6km. Members, I notice, are beginning to repeat the arguments, and I wish to put the clause." Hon, W. F. Massey rose and said, "I desire that yon report progress in order that Mr_ Speaker may take tho chair and official steps started in connection with tho Lyttelton by-election." The motion, was carried, and the Speaker took the chair. He road a telegram intimating the registration of the death of Mr Laurensoiu Hon. W. F. Massey moved that a writ he issued. Sir J. 0- Ward asked the Prime Minister if ho agreed that the repeal of tho second ballot would not apply to tho Lyttelton by-election. There was a precedent for that in the original Second Ballot Act. Ho intended to move an, amendment in that direction. Mr Massey, in reply, said that tho Government was not regarding the repeal of the second ballot in its relation to tho Lyttelton; election. The motion was then put by tho Speaker and carried. Tho committee, then resumed. _ The Chairman began atitoinatically to rule members out of order. Mr Seddon (Westland) was tho first victim of tho guillotine and Messrs McCallum, Atmore, and Colvin wore then ordered_ to resume their seats in quick succession as lioing irrelevant. Hon. J. A. Millar (Dunedin West) proceeded to demand to know from tho Government what it proposed to substitute, for the second ballot, when lie came into clash with the Chairman, who ruled him out. He declared that tho position l was intolerable, that ho was a representative of the people, and should be allowed to mention any argument that,happened to'bo mentioned by some previous speaker. Members continued to be ruled out, ' when Hon. A. T, Ngata (Eastern Maori) rose to a point of order, asking for a statement from the chair as to how ataay times «n argument could 1 1» w

peated before is became tcdiotif, rt-pe*; tion.

The Chairman ruled that the. matter of tedious repetition was entirely i tl j,j discretion, and onch ease must bu doalt, with on its merits.

Sir J. G. Ward, sneaking to ih o j )o j n , of order, said that his side would «h<, T the ruling of the Chairman. Ho askM Mr Malcolm to remember that, tho dp. privation of tho of free siKMrli t< the representatives of the people \ y . {h ' serious matter, and might at some f u ture time be used against tho-c why wore now putting it into operation Hon. J. A. Millar asked that p r ,,. gross be reported, so Lh-:ifc the Speaker might be called in to explain i<, t'hp House, what lie meant when lie went u the Governor and n.sked for tin- rjj.dit , free speech and relumed to the H(, Hfi . and told members that it had !)( . granted.

When the Speaker took the chair .\| r Malcolm oNidained the pronoMti (m ',. him.

Hon. J. A. Millar then repi>s onif . r | die position of members to the Speaker inder which the. right of free H , f . ( ,jj iva.s being denied to members. uh„ j, i not spoken in the previou.s d"liat<'."''

Mr Malcolm read the statement m iv \ f in the afternoon, after which Mr M I(V4 Key .said that freedom of .speech i la ,i been referred to, and it wa.s al>u si . ~f t>poeeh that wa.s objected to.

The. Speaker .said that a great di.-a] ~• w'hal had been said had nothing ii, with the question he was called iipyijj. divide. He had no choice Inn i,, Sav that, the question of relevancy was oj. their in the Jiand.i of the ('liainnim The Chairman had decided, and cisioli was final. He quot<-d autlioriti,, in support of this position, ami cnnrlini. Ed by Niying thai he eon.-.idei,(| t],,, Chairman Mas justified in adopting jj,. <'oiii'se he had. lie then left the c] ia] ' r and the committee, resumed. '

The House adjourned lor supper, - iiW i shortly after the committee ivmuiii-ij \ division was taken on the elati.se, \\\{ u l was earned iiy dO votes to "-'(I. Mr Ngata moved to repot; and Wilis ruled out on the ground thiit the motion was a moekerv. A motion that the Chairman i ( . aV| , the chair wa.s abo ruled out tm- ;| !f same reason. Mr \gala proceeded to di.MK- t),,. clause in committee when he «;,-., ~„,,. lied oil the ground of tedious iV|irtitii.|| He then asked the Chairman ;<, m whether ii was not permissible to ,ii aiglllllents in the eommittee ,staur«!iidi had been used on the .seeond rcndni<; Mr Malcolm admitted that tins'tis., tiie rit'ht of members, mid i\li;i,„,j ;) ]f , .■stringency of his former ruling. n\,, U] . hers taking advantage of fin. jni vil. to denounce the methods of tli.>. d'nvviTinient of forcing the Hill tliroti^li.

Mr Russell moved, "That thi, >,,. lion shall tun come into operation tin'il March 1, 101.1." He wanted the <,,„'„. try to !ia\e the opportunin to express Ml) opinion on the ipiestion. The motion was lost hv 1)1 \,,u : s [,, IM. Mr Til moved, '■Thai the clauy. ,ji, not come into force until a. n I'eii-iitltiiit ol the people had been lakei, <*, \\ if <|ties|ion on the lay ol next e.ei;eu! t .]iv. tion." This was losf, l,\- :>| vole.- to '}), AI II ..HO Sir Joseph Ward Ltave i,r/,-,. of his intention In move an aiivrdnient to provide, that such rciieiii ,mi 4 !; not, apply to any by-election which takes place prior io the next, genera! Acrtion after the passing: of the. Act. Thi* motion, he said, was based on iivc-nlcrt. The motion \x»± not accepted by t!ie (iovernineiit, and wa* rejected, hv 111 t" 2-3. The elanne moved hv Hon. F. M. 11. Fisher providing tor tin- repeal ni the Act. was carried hv M to L'.'i. Tin l (ioveriiiiieni accepted an niiii"!) 1 !- meiit by Mr Fll allowing the Cw.riiishiners to varv the quota in urkui atcM from UK) to 1.10. Another amendment l< hie" ilr cMiutry (piota from 'l* per ewiit. to lj per cent, was defeated hv 11 m 14. After two o'clock a livtsion was t.ik«n ii,' Mr Russell's (Avon) anieiiihiictit ioi' the single transferable vote wliii'li w.s defeated bv ill vote, to '2l. Mr Hinrlmardi (Welliierten S.ituie moved an amendment providing for signing of all articles durim: ilu- p.-r^.; between the issue of the writs am! '.u return thereof. This was lust hr 'i, votes to 10. At .'i .a.in. the amendment- were <ltf posed of except one bv tin' MinetT providing for the Minister issuing writ! in elections in the event ot the <lw!!! r! the Speaker. The House ruse at 11.5 a.m.