MR STOUT'S MEETING,

Clutha Leader, Volume V, Issue 209, 12 July 1878, Page 6

MR STOUT'S MEETING.

The Hon. the Attorney-General addressed a crowded meeting of electors and non-electors afc the Queens-T heatre, Dunedin, on Tuesday evening. His Worship the. May or presided.

The Attorney-General first explained the measures and proceedings of last session of Assembly. We can only find space for extracts from his speech as reported in the Daily Times. The Land and Education A cts being fully explained, the Attor-ney-General referred to tlie Licensing laws, indicating the principle of local oorp r tion for which he contended. Upon the the subject of compensation, he said : — " Gentlemen, I would like to know what is the compensation for? I say it is far better for a man to say he is against the Local Option Bill than to favour compensation. What is the compensation for? Is it for loss of license 1 Nobody proposes to take the license away until it has run out ; and that is all. the State makes a bargain for. It says, "For consideration of a certain sum you shall ha,ve the right to sell liquors for twelve months," and the State fulfils its contract by allowing the privilege for one year. The next year the Bench may refuse to grant, a license, and who has broken a contract, or what right has the publican for compensation at. all ? I ask you to look at this question of compensation in another light. I want to know what is compensation for? Is it compensation for the building ? Nobody proposes to take the building. Is it compensation for trade ? Nobody proposes to take the trade from them. '. All that is proposed is that they shall not sell liquor. ~ (Laughter). Very well, if they say that is a good deal — but all these people who are licensed, are Lot licensed merely to sellliquor, they are supposed to look after the travellers and to provide board and lodging accommodation. But I ask you now to look at it in this way. In reference to this question of compensation, I* say you do not take anything from them except it be the goodwill of their trade, and if they ; say it is such a profitable thing that they Require compensation, then they are "paying too small * license fees; arid if- the State is. to give compensation it must'get '"'..- y •' • .-'•-. yy-'yy- V'y'y-'y./ ".'•-.. '.

from them immensely, more money, or we . should try what was proposed in Glasgow | — to put the licenses up to auction. But they will say there is what is termed a - vested right, and you are to get what is called compensation for the vested right. " Upon the subject of vested rights, he read extracts from G. S. Lewis and Austin, and contended that the publican held no vested rights in a license. "It appears that the Licensing Bench may say to the publicans without reason or rhyme or anything else: 'Your license is refused.' Against this there is v.o appeal, and nobody asks compensation ; but if the community does it, if a majority of the people say there shall be no licenses, there is to be compensation ! So far as the question of compensation is concerned, this is illogical and absurd." . Upon the sub j ect of admi nistrative reform he said the Government would be able to show to the incoming Parliament when they adopted their Estimates that there had been effected a great saving in purely the cost of administration, without affecting, moreover, such departments as the Telegraph Department and the Postal Department. The Government would be able to show at the very least a saving of L 20,000 a year during the short time they had been in office. As to the judicial changes contemplated, he said it was the intention of the Government to establish District Courts throughout the Colony. In the larger towns there will be a Resident Magistrate, who will do the work up to a certain amount, the District Judge to do the balance. The District Judge would also sit in the various towns once a fortnight or month as might be found necessary. As to the part to be performed by the J.P.s, he said: ' c We should call in to our assistance more than we do the J.P.s — a title which is looked upon as a sort of colonial knighthood in the Colony. (Laughter.) I think the 3. P. system ought to be utilised more than it is. Some J.P's are good for the Bench, others are serviceable for taking declarations and things of that sort. I don't see why all the light business in the Courts in Dunedin should not be done by the numerous J.P.s we have in our midst. (Hear, hear.) Throughout this Colony we intend to call upon J.P.s, and remind them that they are to perform some work for their honourable title."

Upon tho subject of Electoral Reform, the hon. gentleman said : "Wo propose three kinds of franchise. 'We propose to retain the present freehold franchise ; then to have a ratepayer's franchise, that is, any person on the ratepayers' roll shall have his name put on the electoral roll without bother or expense to himself ; and the Government also propose to adopt what will be regarded as a unique thing in those colonies — that where women are on the roll as ratepayers they also shall be allowed to vote. (Cheers.) I don't see why they should not exercise their franchise jusfc the same as a man if they pay their rates. (Renewed cheers.) With regard to manhood or residential suffrage, we propose that any person who has resided six months in any one district shall be entitled to havo his name put on the 'roll. If lie chooses, however, to invest his capital in the Colony by having a freehold he can become a freehold elector at once. We also propose that the means of getting on the roll shall be more speedy than at present. We will adopt, the plan that is in vogue in Victoria for having electors registered twice a year. (Hear, hear;) Along with this Representation Bill we propose to have a Bribery Bill. We propose to make most stringent provisions against bribery at elections. (Cheers.) In reference to these Bills there is a provision that I was defeated in last year, but which, I believe, they have in * Canada, or if not in Canada, at all events in the United States. It is this :On election days public-houses shall be closed. (Cheers and laughter.) This I consider a very useful provision. (Renewed laughter. ) I tell you why I think that should be made law. I look upon the giving of a vol eas a most important thing — a thing requiring judgment. I don't think any man can exercise his judgment if he has got what the Americans call an inch of whisky in him. (Laughter.) I think, therefore, that the giving of a vote should be taken in as solemn a manner as vvo take a trial in the Court, and that the people should be allowed to go to the poll quietly, without cabs or canvassers after them, or public-houses to tempt them. (Cheers.) Upon the subject of a land tax, he said : " The means we have of raising our revenue at present maybe said to be fourfold : we have, first, land revenue, we have Customs, stamps, and various licenses I believe that class legislation is wrong, but I say that all our legislation, so far as the taxation system in this Colony ia concerned, has been class legislation, because it has cast the burthens on one class and allowed the wealthy class to escape. [He here cited from Adam Smith, Fawcett, and Mill to show the principles that should be observed in dealing with the subject.] We have therefore to ask, Has the taxation of the past been of a class character ? If, as Smith lays down, each one should contribute to the revenue of the State according to the protection he enjoys at the hands of the State. There has been in the past the very grossest class legislation. Regarding our Customs revenue, there is practically as much taxation cast on the man of small means as there is on the man of largo means. We will take, for example, a man who has a large landed estate. The value of that estate he has had increased fourfold by increased public. works. He may not pay .so much to the State as the man who has not had any benefit of this kind conferred on him — who is just earning sufficient to keep him and his family decently together, who is paying more perhaps to the State than a man holding 4009 or 5000 acres of land. Some people say, '.Oh,. you must not have class legislation, or else you will ruin the Colony !' In the past we have had one of the grossest kinds of class legislation, and yet the Colony has not been ruined. That has been the kind of taxation in the past, a violation of all the fundamental rules laid down by the most eminent political economists. How shall we approach it ? We ought to meet it by having a land tax. (Cheers. ) [He again quoted from writers on political economy, and proceeded] : To apply these principles to this, colony where we may see a man owning a vacant section of land in the Taieri district, for example. The. land lies idle;, the manputs up no buildings .-_ on. it, . ;he does riot rise it Jor ,any purpose-whatever, In 1864, or 1865, say, that'land might Have been"

worth. 1,200; now it is worth L20.0Q0. And the man has simply slept ; he has done nothing to improve the land. What right has he to have this money put into . his pocket, wliich ..really belongs , to the community at largo ? — (Cheers.) Now a land-tax would get at this man. It would not, however, take the whole of the increase from him ; but we say that he has a right to pay something towards the State that has made his land so valuable. —(Cheers.) We take, for another example, the man. who had 10 or 12 years ago LIOOO. The ordinary interest was 15__- per cent, then, so that he got Ll2O per annum for it. But wealth has been coming into tho Colony ; he has been paying taxes to : the funds, and he finds now that he has his LIOOO, but on going to lend it out ho perhaps only gets 8 per cent. ; so that by the progress of the community he is losing L4O a year of his income. If he had invested this in land he would now have L 360 a year. I ask is it fair that this great increase — that a person should reap all this and not pay a fair share to the State that has made his property so valuable to 'him? — (Cheers.) I will quote you another passage from Mill, in which he deals with the same question. " The ordinary progress of a society which increases in Avealth is at all times tending to augment the incomes amongst landlords. . If he said that about England what would he say about the Colonies 1 To give them both a greater amount and a greater proportion of the wealth of the community, independently of any trouble or outlay incurred by themselves. They grow richer as it wero in their sleep without working or economising. What claim have they on the general principles of social justice to this accession of riches 1 In what would they have been wronged if society had from the first beginning reserved a" right of taxing the spontaneous increase of rent to the highest amount required by financial exigencies ?"— (Hear, hear.) These are the opinions, not of a violent man, but of one of the coolest heads that ever was in Britain — John Stuart Mill ; and if you will apply that to the Colony you will find a land tax the fairest tax, if it is hedged about with certain provisions. One of these provisions is this : That industry should not be taxed. — (Hear, hear. ) If a man improves his land, you ought not to increase the tax as he improves the land. You ought to get, if you can, at this increasing increment in the value of the land — not at the increase in land through putting on improvements. — (Hear.) Then we have another thing to deal with. There ought to be an exemption, as both Fawcett and Mill point out. If yon exempted all lands worth 1(500, these would not of course pay a tax ; but in tho case of land worth L 2500, you would have to pay a tax on L2OOO only. This exemption is greatly in favour of small settlers struggling to get a footing in the Colony, and would cast the tax on those who are well ablo to bear it. — (Loud cheers.) How, then, is this to be carried out ? There are two methods of carrying it out, and I for my own part don't care what method is adopted, because it seems to me that they are practically the same, though I see that there has been a good deal of writing saying that they are not the same. One of these systems is tho 'acreage with the proper classification.' Toa drvide the land into various classes ; one class of land you say is worth so much, another class not quite so much or a little more, as the case may be. So you get the tax made fair ; and you will readily see that making the acreage tax with proper classification is practically making a tax with a valuation. Therefore I don't care whether it is done by tliat method to wliich i refer, in which the land is valued independent of the . buildings that have been reared upon it. 'if you had this groundwork valued and you allowed a certain deduction, then you can put your own tax on tliat at so much in the pound. I believe we shall never be able to get any economical- Administration until we bring the taxpayer and the people face to face. Once 'the poeple have to pay the money out of their pockets they will see that the money is not lavishly or foolishly expended. This reform, which should be carried out, would be of great service. Contrast it with the other scheme which is _ proposed to the electors of the Colony. We had an ex-Minister, for whom I have the greatest respect, saying that he would like to see — what do you think? He wished to have a police and educational rate ; that is two rates. My first objection to such a thing is, that it would be creating two machineries, which would be an expensive thing to collect. Then there would be the objection that it would be a tax on industry, because you would be taxing improved and unimproved land — higher, in fact, on unimproved land than on improved land. But the third and greatest objection of aL ..wlrich ; I wonder has not been seen, is that if simply means that those who live in outlying districts— hi those districts, say, where there are thousands of acres of land with nothing upon it but a few shepherds and their dogs and the sheep — would hot need any police or education rate, because the sheep would not require to be protected, nor the dogs require the schools. — (Laughter.) The result would be tins, that these large properties, which are increasing rapidly in value, will escape scot free from all taxation, while the burden of direct taxation will be cast on our town, suburban, and struggling rural populations. I consider that that taxation would be certainly liable to the charge of class taxation, which is not the case with the taxation which I have shadowed out as that which the Government intend to propose. Something has been said in reference to a ' burstingup tax.' If I had my own way I should be : prepared to prohibit any man from holding beyond a certain amount, but unfortunately in my opinion; on this question, as on the licensing question, I am only part of the minority. I say if our system of taxation, which will exempt small holders, means the bursting up of estates, we cannot help 1 it. We are following out this taxation according to the highest dictates of wisdom. If it bursts up the estates, so much the worse for the .estates; I am ;not, as a member of. the Government, advocating '.bursting up ;' I am simply advocating a fair system of taxation. „ If it bursts up these- estates,, there should not be these to biirst up." ' ' ; ' ' I Mr Stout, in conclusion, said : "There aye various things Which' I cohld" refer to in dealing with political' mattefsj but I 1 do nfet wish, to ; detain ;'you^triduly;.-:;V-I-'-havi. told you what the 6bi&ts*6fs the (Govern-

ment are ; and I ask you to remember ■ this : that all those things cannot be carried out in a day. Anyono who. has watched the proceedings of' the House of Representatives at Wellington must be aware of tho immense amount of trouble there is to get any measure carried through there. All the, Government have aright to do to the people is this .* To say to them, " these are our opinions and we intend to carry thorn, out. We believe that we can carry them out if we get the hearty support of the constituencies throughout the Colony." Their hearty support will aid us in getting our views made law, but if we fail do not blame us, because we did our best to get them carried out. In reply to a question regarding the 1 roudfoot case, ho said: I may state that i was not in the Government when this case was proceeding. I believe the mistake that was made was in the late Government allowing the prosecution to become a quasi private one. It ought to have been gone on with as a Government prosecution straight through. I have been informed tho present Government were advised by the permanent law officers of the Crown— it never became a political question at all— that the Government could not possibly carry on the prosecution in the absence of the witnesses ; and the result would have been an acquittal had they gone on -without them. The case is still pending. All the Government could do would be to punish the witnesses for their absence, whicli I do not think is a desirable thing to do. Tlie Government had no option but to enter nolle prosequi. Mr James Watson : Touching the licensing question— l understood the hon. gentleman to say that publicans held their licenses for one year only, and therefore they had no right to feel aggrieved if they lost them at the end of the year The Hon. Mr Stout: Yes, they are only held for a year. Mr Watson: Why, if the Government grant licenses for ono year only, don't they expect us to send in signatures of householders after the first year ? We are required, as you may be aware, upon making -our first application, to forward the names of the householders ; but that is not required of us after the first year. The Hon. Mr Stout: It is a concession to the publican. Mr Watson: By inference is it not telling us that we can keep our licenses 1 The Hon. Mr Stout : There is no in--1 ference of the sort. The Bench may grant a license one year and refuse it the next, as it was not wanted in the district. Mr Watson .- Is it not a fact that after - the first application we are not required to • attend at the licensing meeting imply > that we shall continue to have the license 1 The Hon. Mr Stout : The best proof that it does not imply anything of the sort is that the license must be renewed , every year. I suppose it is simply a concession to the publicans, so as not to put - them to any trouble, but no inference is •to be drawn from- tliat that your license is perpetual. It is a very common thing for ; the Licensing Bench to say, "this license • is refused, and the publican has no re- ■ dress.— r(Applause.) A Voice ; Is it the intention of the Go- ' vernment to hand over any part of tho confiscated land to any tribe of Maoris 1 * ihe Hon. Mr Stout : So far as lam aware there is no intention to hand over. any confiscated land, except, I believe/ 1 some small portions that were promised to ' them by the late Sir Donald M'Lean. No new promises have been made. On the ■• contrary, the Government are doing all . they can to get surveyed some of the richest land in all the North Island— what is called tho Waimate Plain— and I believe it will be in the market within 1 two months. 'r_ ¥l\ H l oarrick •" La dies and gentlemen— ■ It falls to my pleasant lot to move a voto of thanks to the Hon. Mr Stout for his address, and for his past services ; and also of confidence in him for the future.— (Applause.) During my life time, and'all 1 bave heard and read, I have never heard a speech so characteristic, so straightforward, or so honest. In' the 'first place, it is the greatest unfolding, if I may use the ' term, pf Government's policy ever I heard made by a Cabinet Minister. Secondly it appears to me to be one of the ablest, iuliest, and most democratic speeches I ever heard made by a member j and above all, lookmg at it carefully, it seems to me that the veiy basis of the wholo address was a desire to give humanity, a respect above wealth, and everything in the shape ot fan* play and justice. Although Ido not agree m everything he has said— and I suppose there is no one present who will —yet I think Dunedin has in the hon. gentleman a representative of whom the people may well be proud, and that thoy may have perfect confidence in the future ° -S m T> ho rG P reseil ts them.— (Cheers.) Mr Robin secended the motion, wliich was. carried amidst much cheering. . The Hon v Mr Stout returned thanks, and a. vote of thanks to the Chairman concluded the proceedings.