The General Assembly.

Clutha Leader, Volume IV, Issue 178, 7 December 1877, Page 3

The General Assembly.

$, — _i — TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 27. Mr Sheehan moved the further postponement of the Land Bill to enable the Government to adapt it to their policy. Major Atkinson strongly objected, and after a long- discussion, the motion was agreed to. The Hon. Mr Sheehan moved the second reading' of the Maori Real Estate Amendment Bill. It was gratifying to him that his statement of Native policy has been received with so much satisfaction in the House and the country. The Bill now before the House was to get over a serious difficulty in completing- the purchase of lands in the North Island, owing 1 to there being' minors amongst the sellers to the Cvown. It was proposed to appoint trustees to act for these minors in completing titles to Crown grants. Major Atkinson reviewed tho Native policy of the late Government, and explained what had bean their intentions with reference to the Natives. He also criticised the Government policy in a manner complimentary to Mr Sheehan. The Bill was then read a second time, as also the Native Lands Act Amendment Bill. The Law Practitioners Act Amendment Bill was read a third time. In the Legislative Council, Two formal protests were handed to the Speaker to be transmitted by the Governor to the Home authorities, in reference to the Education Bill, The following members protest against the Bill because it fails to provide for any recognition of the Christian religion, or even of a Supreme Being : Messrs Kenny, Richmond, and Peter Miller. The other protest is signed by Messrs Hall and Menzies, and objects ' to the Bill for the same reasons as the ' others, but gives as additional grounds that the law is not only absolutely wrong, but it is opposed to the general wishes of the people of New Zealand. WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 28. In answer to questions, Ministers stated : (I.) The Government had not arrived at any decision as to the office of Agent-Gpneral, or the retention of Sir Julius "Vogei's services. (2,) The case of Captain Thomas Turnbull and others, and similar cases of harbourmasters, were under the consideration of the Government. On a motion of Dr Hodgkinson that the H.onse to-morrow resolve itself into Committee to consider an address to the Governor, requesting him to cause to be placed on the Supplimentary Estimates a sum sufficient for the erection of a bridge suitable for heavy traffic on the Opawa River, at or near Collier's Ford, a long irregular discussion took place regarding such motions in general, and which side of the House was responsible for such questions being brought forward. One side attributed the evil to Abolition and the failure of the County system, - and then this branched into a discussion as to whose fault it was that the County system bad failed. The only important suggestion or remarks made were that the Minister of Justice said it was absolutely necessary to have some buffer between the Go 1 ernment and members in regard to local works, and he suggested a committee in. future years to report on all such motions. Mr Gisborne suggested boards of works j for provincial districts. The motion ' was agreed to on a division by twenty to fifteen. : : Mr Burns moved the second reading of the Employment of Females Act Amendment Bill, whereupon Mr Stout moved that it be read that; day six

months. — The Premier thought the Bill should be referred to a committee, so that the employed might be heard as well as the employers. The Bill seemed to make a serious and objectionable alteration in the law, especially as it would allow night work.— The Bill was opposed by Messrs Menders, Johnston, Maofarlane, and Wood, and supported by Messrs Murray, Reynolds, and Eeid. — Mr Burns, in reply, contended that he was acting on behalf of the employes, and. not of the employer?,, fie asked leave to withdraw the Bill, but tbis was refused.— -An amendment was carried on the voices, consequently the Bill is shelved. The following is the text of the principal clause in Mr Burn's proposed amending 1 Bill : — " Notwithstanding 1 anything contained in the Employment of Females Act, 1873, or in any Act amending 1 the same, it shall be lawful to employ any female in any woollen, cloth, flannel, or hose factory, in which machinery or appliances of any kind are worked by steam or motive power at such time' or times not exceeding fifty-two hours in any week of working days, as may be agreed upon between any such female and her employer." The South Kakaia Road Board Bill was postponed by consent to next Wednesday. The Gisborne Harbou r Bill, Waikato Port and River Trust Endowment Bill, wei^eread a third time. The Wanganui Port Endowment Bill, Wyndham Show Ground Reserve Bill, and Foxton Beserve Bill, was read a second time and referred to the Waste Lands Committee. The Taranaki Roads and Bridges Ordinance Amendment Bill was passed. In Supply, addresses were agreed to in Committee for|the following sums to be placed on the Supplementary Estimates : — L2OO for improving the entrance to Martin's Bay ; L5OO for a road from the the Maori Kaik to Taiaroa Head lighthouse; L5OO for a jetty at Catlins River. On Mr Woolcock's motion for LI O,OOO for a bridge between Greymouth and Cobden, the Minister for Works said there was no use voting it as there was no money. The motion to go into Committee was carried by 19 to 15, but in Committee the vote was rejected by 22 to 18. In Committee on the Forest Trees Planting Encouragement Bill, a motion that the chairman do leave the chair was carried by 26 to 15. THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 29. In reply to Mr Fitzroy, Sir Georg-e Grey said the Government would introduce a Representation Bill next session, and with regard to asking for a dissolution afterwards they would pursue the usual constitutional course. , Tbe following new bills were introduced : — Stamp Act Amendment Bill (Sheehan), West Harbour Borough Mayoralty Election Validation Bill (Sheehan). The Standing Orders were, on Mr Sheehan's motion, suspended, to enable , him to introduce the Napier Swamp | Nuisance Act Amendment Bill, which ! was afterwards passed through all its stages. The Waste Lands Boards Continuance Bill was read a second time, and passed through all stages. Mr Burns moved that the Council's amendment in the Taranaki Tronsand Company's Land Bill be agreed to. The amendment was to reduce the quantity of iron to be smelted from 100 to 50 tons. Mr Kelly opposed this, as tbe matter had been very carefully enquired into by the Petitions Committee. \ Mr Reynolds opposed agreeing to the amendment. Mr Ti avers strongly opposed the reduction in quantity. Re denounced the proceedings of the Company in regard to experimental smelting as an abominable trick. Much of the iron smelted was from Nelson, and not Taranaki sand. Messrs Stout, Murray, and Reid very strongly urged agreeing to the amendment, contending that the Company deserved consideration, as they had spent all their money in experiments, having practically fulfilled their agreement, although they had been unsuccessful. Major Atkinson opposed agreeing to the amendment. The Company had merely put machinery on the ground, but had never made any real attempt to use it, or get advice or practical men. The Company had not acted fairly to the Colony or to its own shareholders. The only reason for promising the land was to get the iron sand smelted. This the Company had never really attempted. . Mr Burns, in reply, contended the sand had been smelted, as the ore from Nelson had been an utter failure. On a division the Council's amendment was disagreed to by 30 to 20. On a second division of 27 to 25, managers were appointed to draw up reasons for the disagreement. Sir. George Grey moved the second reading of the Civil List Act Amendment Bill, the : object of which is tc reduce Ministers' salaries. The second reading was agreed to. On the motion to go into' Committee; Mr Shrimski opposed the Bill, as he did not think present salaries excessive He moved that the Bill be committee that day three months. i Major Atkinson thought the Bill t mere affectation of economy. It wat all very well for gentlemen reoeiviog large Imperial pensions and of larg< private means to propose g«oh a mea

sure, but no gentleman could properly fill the office as Minister without spending, moro than Llooo,a-year. To reduce salaries would be to reduce the already too limited choice of men to become Ministers. Mr Stout moved the adjournajent of the debate in order that some compromise might be arrived. at He thought the Premier should have a higher i-ate of salary than the others, and bethought that at least one more Minister should be appointed. Adjourning the debate would also allow: the Land Bill to be disposed of at onoe. Mr Reynolds opposed the adjournment. He also opposed the reduction of salaries proposed. He spoke from experience in condemning such a step. He thought another Minister in the Legislative Council necessary. Sir George Grey, in reply to Major Atkinson's statement about the Imperial pension, said that. while he lost half his. pension he would only draw LSOO a j'ear, and if the Premier's salary was reduced to LI OOO he would with his pension receive less than the present salary of the Premier. Mr Gisborne supported the Bill, Mr Reid opposed the Bill as calculated only to attract popularity amongst the unthinking. It was a weakness of democracies to underpay public men. Considering the. amount of inconvenience members were put to in taking office if they lived always away from Wellington, he did not think the Ministerial salaries at all too high. Mr Thomson supported the Bill. Membei's suffered inconvenience as well as Ministers, but questions of personal convenience should not be considered in the matter. LIOOO a year was an ample salary. He also thought the Ministerial residences should be sold. Mr Sheehan did not think the present Ministerial salaries too extravagant, but the Government felt it had become imperative to enter on a systematic course of retrenchment, and to show their earnestness they proposed to begin with themselves. They believed it would have a good moral effect. He believed at least eight Ministers were really required to do the work of the Colony, and a couple of political Under Secretaries to assist in Parliamentary and Departmental work, but without seats in the Cabinet. Mr Reynolds opposed the reduction of salaries. If the Bill passed it would only apply to the present Ministry. ■ Mr Moorhouse did not think the reduction in general salaries in the civil i service possible. The number of civil servants might be reduced, but not their salaries Mr Bowen opposed the Bill. He knew of no salaries in the service which , co'ild be cut down, although the late Government had been desirous of amalgamating offices. LI 000 a year was not enough for a Minister to keep his family on in Wellington, when their homes were in other parts of the Colony. The proposed reduction was a paltry one in amount and useless as an example. Mr Montgomery thought men desiring to occupy a public position must be prepared to make sacrifices Members had to do so, and he did not see why Ministers should not. He did not think Civil servants overpaid. Good men could not be got for less than present salaries. He hoped the Bill would pass. Mr Kelly supported the Bill. He thought LIOOO a year and a house ample salary. An addition to the number of Ministers would be desirable. The Premier, he thought, should not have any departmental duties. Mr Murray supported the Bill. He would oppose any increase in the number of Ministers. Mr Rees supported the Bill. He thought Ministers overpaid in proportion to members. Mr Orinond thought members were in a very different position to Ministers, and the comparison was quite unfair. He opposed the Bill. Sir Geo. Grey said the great object of the Bill was to check the system of gross extra vag-anoe which had grown up in the Government and had spread to other bodies throughout the Colony. The Government now desired to show a public example of economy. The effect of such a measure was not to be estU mated by She amount of money saved. It was a rebuke to public extravagance. Ministers merely refusing to draw salaries would not have had a similar effect. The consolidating of offices was the direction in which the saving could best be effected in public service. He would not .hold office on condition oi entertaining people at the public expense, to the injury of.health, and waste of time. If the House refused to support the Government in the first step towards economy, it was poor encouragement to enter on larger reforms, and , the House would be treating- them verj badly if it did not aid them in this measure. On a division on the motion for going into committee the votes were equa • — 3l each. The Speaker said he felt bound tc give his casting' vote on the side of eco nomy, and for going into committee or the Bill, although he wished it understood he did not go the length of <th< proposals contained in it. On going* into Committee, ' iMr Rolleston- moved the Chairmai dp .leave the ohair. After some discussion, during v/hicl c 1 Sir W, Fitzherberfc, while urging eco - 1 nomy by example, maintained that th

Premier's salary should be at" least LI 400 a year. The motion was carried by 32 to 30. The Bill was accordingly shelved. The Land Bill was then further considered in Committee, ,- Mr Stout's amendment to clause ], appendix G, the effect of which would have been to open pastoral lands in Canterbury to sale on deferred payments, was lose on a division of 30 to 27. The bill was then reported, and read a third time and passed. FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 30. The' Native Affairs Committee reported that they thought the Native Validation Bill was entirely iineccessary, and that it had better be withdrawn. The Public Acoounts Committee reported that Ministers retiring from office during 1 session should be allowed to retain Ministerial houses for 30 days after leaving- office, but that for the present session the late Ministers should be allowed to retain them, till the prorogation. . The Hon. Mr Sheehan thought that late Ministers should pay a reasonable rent for the time they occupied them. Sir George Grey thought 14 days quite enough to be allowed for removing. Mr Rolleston thought the matter as one between outgoing and incoming Ministers, and not one for-the public Mr M'Lean pointed out he had left his official residence soon after leaving office, but none of the present Ministry had called to accept it. Long after he had received a circular from the UnderSecretary demanding 1 rent, and asking him to appoint an. arbitrator to fix the amount. He thought such conduct anything but creditable to the Government. Mr Bowen said he and his late col» leng'ues would be very glad to pay rent from the day they vacated office rather than have any disoussion over such a matter, Mr Swanson urged selling Ministerial residences. Mr Reynolds thought this would be very unwise; Ministers should not be required to leave the residences during the session, and it was contemptible to try and screw rent out of them. After considerable further discussion, the report was ordered to be printed, and the matter dropped. In reply to Mr Barff, The Hon. Mr Mucandrew said the survey of the railway from "Duntroon to Arrow would be made during* the recess. The Stamp Act Amendment Bill and the West Harbour Mayoralty Election Validation Bill were read a second time. . j The following Bills were read a third time: — Stamp Act Amendment Bill, West Harbour Borough and Mayoralty Election Validation Bill, Native Land Act Amendment; Bill, Maori Real Estate Management Bill, Government Native Lands Purchase Discontinuance Bill, Shipping and Seamen Bill, Wangarei Port Endowment Bill, Wyndham Show Ground Reserve Bill, Canterbury Road Ordinance Amendment Bill, Te Aro Reclamation Bill. The Dangerous Goods "Aot was amended, so as to give power to the Governor to make regulations about the use and storage of gasoline, and was then read a third time. The Disqualification Bill was amended, so as to exempt members of Education Boards, University Councils, and Harbour Boards, and was then read a first time. The Council's amendments in the Domicile Bill and the Public Reserves Bill were disagreed to, and those in the District Railways Bill, Crown Redress Bill, and Fish Protection Bill were agreed to. Jn Committee the resolutions about the votes for Tairoa Heads Road, Jetty at Catlins River, and Martin's Bay Harbour Improvement, were agreed to. SATURDAY, DECEMBER 1. The Hon. Mr Sheehan said the Government would have a flying survey made of the railway between the Motueka and Moutere, as requested in the petition from the settlers in those districts. The Financial Arrangements A mend- > ment Bill was received by message and rend a first time. The Hon. Sir George Grey moved the second reading take place at 7.30 ' this evening. Major Atkinson objected to either 5 this Bi'l, the Land Bill, or the Loan Bill I being proceeded with to-day. Mo time ) hud now been afforded for considering f such important measures. ; If, after due • consideration, the Opposition could ac--5 cept those measures, they would assisi t in passing them through on Monday. The Hon. Mr Macandrew thought ii • reasonable to leave the Financial Ar--1 range men ts Bill over to Monday, bu' 7 the Land Bill might be gone on with - The Government, however, were in th< hands of the House. After a slight, discussion, the mattei 1 dropped. The Hon. Sir George Grey moved tb< 3 second reading of the Lands- Sales Bill i- It would be remembered that in. th< 3 Financial Statement: it was rintimatec - that a system of classification could no c be made immediately, but provision foi itwould be. made next session ; and a: a step towards the establishment of i a uniform price, the very' simple -Bill' v his hand-had been drawn up. It estab h lished; a uniform price for all. land soli - by auction and all sold by free seleotion c Settlement, therefore? would x\o% h

stopped until further legislation took place, as all demands for land fit for settlement worth H an aore could easily be found^until classification took place, and a uniform price: for the value of land could be established throughput theXSolony. The Bill provided in a simple and efficient manner for a great difficulty, and paved tUe way {'or a uniform land law for the Colony. Mr Reid said the Bill was. very short, hut would ■ tend . very much to confuse the land laws. One.olause in the other Land Bill would have been a simpler way of dealing with the matter' and attaining the end.:' Short as the Bill was it was contradictory in its provisions. It would double the price of land, which could not in Otago be sold at the price of 20s an acre,- and. so would stop all sales. It wanted more -intelligible provisions, for.. the case of selling' by auction land open for selection, but simultaneously applied for by two persons. He did not approve of raising the price of lands. The Waste Lands Board had already ample power to increase the price of lands more than 20s an acre. The .Bill would raise all deferred payment land to L 3 an acre, and it would decrease the land revenue and impede the progress of settlement. He moved the adjournment of the debate. The Hon. Mr Macandvew thought the best proof of the value of the Bill was the very mild opposition it received from Me Reid, who was an expert in land law matters. He was strongly in favour, arid had formerly been in favour, of a uniform land law for the Colony, It was absolutely essential now that the Land Revenue was colonialised. He did not think settlement would be at all impeded by the present measure, which was merely a temporary one. He saw no reason for postponing the debate on such a simple measure. Mr Travers had read, but failed to understand, the Bill. It was inconsistent and unintelligible. He thought the auction system highly injurious to settlement. It had proved so here and elsewhere. The man of capital drove out by it the man who wanted to settle. The whole system was a delusion and a snare— a delusion to the revenue and a mischievous trap for the would be settlers. He eulogised the Canterbury Land Laws, and said that had ifc not been for its gold-fields, Otago would have been a desert with all its lands in the hands of capitalists. It would be better to leave the land laws as they were, until next session, unless the Land Bill already passed in the House became Jaw, and this Land Sale Bill should not be passed. My Stout thought Mr Travers' speech more contradictory than the Bill. He showed his utter ignorance of Otago and lands. In bringing down the Bill, ! instead of puttinp; new clauses into the other Bill, the Government was reall/ adopting Mr Reid's suggestions, yet he now complained of their having done so. He denied the provisions of the Bill was in any way contradictory. The opposition to this Bill was simply to try and stop making the Land Fund Colonial revenue. Nelson, Marlborough, and Auckland - were the only Provinces which would be affected by this Bill. Mr Gisborne considered the Bill simply a step towards the establishment of a uniform system of land law, and as necessary to making the Land Fund Colonial revenue. He saw no objection to the measure. Mr Sutton thought there was no necessity for this measure this year. He did not believe in uniformity of land law or prices. This would stop all land sales in the North Island. Major Atkinson thought this Bill could' nof; be understood till they hud the Fiuancial Arrangements Bill before them, and an explanation of how this Bill was to do what was desired in banking accounts. If it could be sbown it would do this the House would no doubt pass it ; but he did not think it would do this. The matter was one of finance rather than policy. Mr Kelly hoped ihe Bill would be amended in committee in certain directions," so as, amongst other things, to provide for the sale of land not purchased when put up to auction. . Mr Manders supported uniform land law aii d a common purse. He even objected to the 20 per cent, reservation to local bodies. He would support the land polioy of the Government. Mr De Latour thought if the smaller Provinces would. not, by agreeing to an increase of price, meet the sacrifice which Otago and Canterbury were making by giving up their land revenue, he and others might be inclined to reconsider the question of giving it up. Mr- M'Lean was afraid the Bill was impracticable, otherwise it would to a great extent meet his views, but he wished to consider it in connection with the Financial Arrang-ementg Bill. , lie urged the adjournment of both Bills till Monday. Mr Rees thought any amendment required could be made in Committee on the Bill. r ' "- . Mr Lumsden thought this Bill would afford the Council an excuse for throwing out the other Land Bill, This Bill would also injuriously affect Southland, and he "would oppose it unless altered considerably in committee. .He would not agree to a uniform price. :Sir R. Douglas urged .the adjournment to Monday, as he wished to see | how the- Bill would afjecfc Auckland, and to: consider it apart from all party consideration, a.^ Tht> debate was adjourned^.

' MONDAY, DECEMBER 3, ' ' r Id the Legislative' Council, Replying to the Hon. Mr Pbarasyn, Colonel Wbitmore said that "Government could not undertake to grant' oom* pensation co 3ettlers on Port Chaise, North Fsland, for losses sustained during* the last Native rebellion. In the House of Representatives, A new Bill was introduced, entitled the Public Revenues Aot Amendment Bill, by Sir George Grey. '■'• • In reply to Mr Thomson, MrShee* han said the railway line, Bridge to> Balclutha, would be opened about the end of December. The Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works Property Vesting 1 Bill (Sheehan), . was read a first time. In reply to Mr Morris, the Hon. MrMacandrew said that correct grants fop the military settlers of Ormond were ia, preparation* The Waste Lands Sales Bill was read a second time without debat6 } bat Oil & division of 30 to 56. ; Mr Curtis asked if the Bill would not have to go before the Waste Lands Committee. The Speaker said it would, according" to Standing Orders. Mr Sheehan suggested that "he Housemight suspend the Standing. Orders in* this, as the Council had done in regard to the other Waste Lands Bill. / Major Atkinson said he would opposa these bills being* hurried on until fcho Government gave a full explanation of their policy,, and showed how their pro-* posals would affect the finances of the country. If they gave a satisfactory explanation the Opposition would offer no obstruction, but an opinion prevailed that Ministers knew nothing either of the finances of the Colony or their- own measures, and until satisfied on thesepoints the Opposition would use every means to oppo&e those measures. He moved the adjournment of the House, Mr Stout supported the adjournment until the Land Bill was reported on, as unless it passed there was no good in going on with the Financial Arrange-* ments Bill. • Mr M'Lean quoted from Hansard to> show how the present supporters of the Land Bill had last year opposed th& proposal to raise the price of land. They were now making far worse proposals. Sir George Grey suggested that tha House should adjourn till 7,30, and that the Waste Lands Committee should meet in the meantime. Mr Sharp supported this suggestion. Major Atkinson said he did not wishthe Bill to go before the Waste Landsr Committee. If the Government would give fin explanation of their policy on the Financial Arrangements Bill, he would then assist them to suspend tha Standing Orders. The Speaker said the Bill was referred to the Waste Lands Committee by the consent of the House ; he would leave the chair till 7.30, and cause the WasteLands Committee to meet in the interim, On resuming, Sir George Grey moved the seoond reading of the Financial Arrangementa Bill ; which he explained was a step towards x q estoring a proper equilibrium between the income and expenditure of the country. Under ordinary cir-< cumstances the measure should hava been referred to the country, but the delay would be so serious that it could not be done. Tho Land Fund he said, was practically gone before he took office, and the late Treasurer's estimateof the Land Fund was most inaccurate. The whole Land Fund would, however, have dis-ippsared under the proposals of the late Government, and the people would not know how or where. Their proposals to take the Of ago and Canterbury Land Fund without the authority of the law, was a deliberate breach of' contract with those who had bought the land on an assurance of a certain por-< tion being available, for certain purposes. He and his colleagues felt the time ha(i come when dabbling with the Land Fund should cease, and its distinntion be fixed b3 r lavv. After fully explainingthe principle and tho provisions of th.B Bill, he concluded by saying that tha. sacrifice which the South was making* for the .National' credit would deserve the £7-atiuid« of the wkoU people of New Zealand for many years to come, and could no doubt be repaired. After a long discussion, the second reading was carried by 41 to 13, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 5. After sundry unimportant questions had been answered, the fallowing Bills were introduced; — Hutt County Offioes Site Bill (Shrehnn), Middle Island Halfcaste Crown Grants Bill (Sheehan)* Hating Act Amendment Bill (Sheehan), Counties Act Ameudment (Sheeh/a.n), The House then went into Commit., tee on the Waste Lands Bill, the title of which has been changed to the Crown Lands Bill. After some progress had beea made, progress was reported.