THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 27.

Clutha Leader, Volume IV, Issue 169, 5 October 1877, Page 3

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 27.

Mr Larnach moved his Waka Mad'ri •amendment on the motion for going into Supply. He felt the re«ponsiblity thrown on him by the Government accepting the motion as a no-confidence one, but was prepared to accept it. The Waka Maori wag first started 10 or 12 years ago, and, up to. 1872, nothing objectionable appeared in it, but then Mr Stafford had reason to complain . of its contents. He read Mr Stafford's letter to Mr Waterhouse, dated 28th December, 1872, making a complaint of the Waka Maori being prostituted to party, and personal purposes, and also read* Mr Waterhouse's reply, promising that such should not occur again. . How faith at promise had beet, kept this debate would show. The system then commenced had been carried on to the pre- , sent time. Up to last session, this had created so strong a feeling of disgust that the vote for the Waka Maori was struck out, yet the paper was kept on, and a writ was* issued for libel by Mr H. Russell. .Government took three months to consider, and then pleaded justification. Although changes had taken place, the Government was a continuous one, and as a body- could not escape responsibility. . The Premier had last year accepted the vote, and promised that, the Colony should never more be required to contribute 'to the paper. The fact, however, was plain, at whoseever expense the paper was published, the country would be. called to pay not less than L6OOO costs and damages in Mr Russell's case. The responsibility rested with the present Ministers, who in the face of an express vote of the House had involved the country in enormous legal expenses. Of course, the printer could not be left to pay, but it was a monstrous thing that the country should be placed in such a position. If the present Government were not responsible for tbe Russell . libel, certainly they were for a more recent one published within the last year. He would simply move the motion.

The Hon. Mr Whitaker congratulated Mr Larnach on his new character as leader of the Opposition. Government were glad of the opportunity of determining whether they had a majority in the House or not. If they had not, they had no right to be on those benches, and had no desire to be there unless they had the confidence of the House. He only regretted the question had not been tested long before. Public business would have been advanced if the Opposition had done as they might have done, brought this matter forward a month ago. He quoted Todd's Parliamentary Practice, to show that the motion was a vote of want of confidence, and that if carried, Mr Larnach was bound to take the responsibility as to advising the Governor in the choice of new advisers. Government adopted the fuil responsibility of the publication ofthe Waka Maori, and if the motion were carried, Ministers would resign, and recommend the Governor to send for Mr Larnach. He denied that the Ministry was a continuous one. How could he be the successor of Sir J. Yogel, whom, on a most important question, he had opposed ? He had been laughed at about requiring precedence, but he had insisted on it, to show how completely he severed himself from the former administration, Messrs Ormond and Reid had joined the Ministry after. He did not think the cost in the Waka Maori case would exceed L 3500, but of course the printer could not be left to pay it. He quoted Hansard to show exactly what took place last session on the 17th October. When the Waka Maori vote was struck out, the Waka Maori of 7th November contained an article announcing its discontinuance, in consequence of that vote. Letters and telegrams poured in from all quarters from the Natives, complaining of the discontinuance. He read several of these. The Maoris generally, were dissatisfied at its discontinuance, and the Government felt in a difficulty. In order to see what could be done, Government issued a circular, signed by the Native Under-Secretary, to the officers in the Native districts. He read this. Its object was to ascertain the amount of support the Natives would give if the publication continued. . A large number of subscriptions were promised. A petition to continue the paper was also received from influential Natives, amongst others four out of six Native members of the Legislature. After all this Government came to the conclusion that it was necessary to reestablish the paper, believing it specially dangerous to leave Natives without proper information on important matters. Several gentlmen offered to guarantee the expenses, and it was resolved to carry it on without expense to the Colony. Sir Donald M'Lean guaranteed LSO, and, others did the same ; and not only guaranteed the publication, but also took the responsibility of all consequences. Had he been in the Ministry, he would have acted as members then did. The first number under the new arrangement was in December, and up to July it was continued, when*, in consequence of some question in the House, Government decided to . stop it. . As .to cost, he believed the subscriptions would more than cover the cost of publication, and half . tbe salary ofthe officer of: the department, who edited it in one fourth. his time. 1 , The account was not quite madf? u"p ? .

but he believed there would be'no necessity to even ask a guarantee or anything. ; .Since the resuscitation, --subscriptions, he believed, had more', than paid the full "cost j butifj when the account was made up, -.any deficiency was foUnd, it would not fall on the Colony. No vote appeared on the Estimates this year for the paper, and it was neverintended ' there' should be. The libels were published in July and August/ 187(3, _ before he joined the Ministry. Although their publication was urged by Sir Donald M'Lean, he felt bound to say he believed Sir Donald M'Lean never received them If any libel appeared under the new arrangement the guarantors were liable, and quite .willing to bear the responsibility. The first Maori newspaper was published in 1848, being established by Sir G. Grey as Governor. He* entirely approved' of that action, as establishing a medium of communication between the Government and the Maori people. With oc- • casioha'l intermission the publication of the Maori newspapereontihued uritiUuly : last, the Waka Maori taking 'the place,, ofthe original Maori Messenger. He quoted from Gorst's book, "The Maori King," to show the history of Maori papers, ,- Comparison of the dates he had given would show that the assertions of -Mr Larnach were unfounded.

Mr Montgomery asked for a list of the guarantors' names.

The Hon. Mr Whitaker said that was a private matter, and. he would not give it. Had Mr Larnach asked for correct information as to the facts of the case, Government would have given them, but he bad chosen to proceed in the dark. If anything, Government had a profit out of publishing the paper since December,* and no libel appeared during that time, or if there had, neither- Government nor the Colony were liable, but the guarantors. The paper had been conducted under the direction of Dr. Pollen, as Native Minister. He asked Mr Larna.ch, as an honourable man, if, in the face of the facts stated, he was prepared to ask any honourable men to vote for the resolution, the statements in which were absolutely untrue. Mr Larnach had been .singularly unfortunate in his first appearance as leader of the Opposition, basing his attacks on purely imaginary facts.

Mr Lusk was astonished at the audacity of Mr Whitaker in ending such a speech by giving advice. The statements of that speech did not hang together. Apparently Mr Whitaker forgot that the matter was before the House a month ago, when Government had objected to its discussion, because the matter was sub judice. He was glad Government had at last taken a stand, and did not view the question merely as a social one, or promise not to do it again or promise to consider it during the recess. There were other more important questions affecting their existence yet in the background. The Government could 'not have been influenced in continuing the paper by the letter read from the Maori members, because this letter, was received while the House was sitting) and a month later Government issued a circular stating they had resolved on the discontinuance of the paper. He denied that the' Natives whose letters had. been read as justifying the action of the Government in defying the House were influential, or their representations entitled to weight. With one exception, these representations were all dated Wellington — emanating from men here on Native Office business, and under its influence. Many members complained ofthe use of the paper for improper purposes, and not only objected to the L4OO vote, but objected to the Government maintaining the paper to malign 'their opponents. The Hon, Major Atkinson had been asked if he would accept the refusal of the vote as an indication of the wish of the House that the paper should not be published, and the Premier replied that he would. Tt was not a mere question of L4OO, but of the principle of maintaining such a publication. It was an extraordinary doctrine that the Government was not responsible, for a paper published in the Government Printing Office, headed by the Royal arms, and with the Government Printer's name on the imprint. A libel was published in September last, and the member libelled had asked an apology or LIOO for some charity. The law officers of the Crown had replied, offering an apology, but said it would be very hard to call upon the Government Printer and editor to pay L 100; It was nonsense to say the Government had made a profit out of the paper, or' that the publication had cost nothing. He did not believe that there were a, 1000 Maoris in the Colony who would read the Waka Maori, even if given them, much less pay 10s per year for it.' He would like to see the list of subscribers, even -those who had paid the L2lB received. . As to the other L2OO due, it. never would* be received: The whole thing about its being* selfsupporting was an utter farce. The paper had been discontinued only two days before the House met, after being" continued in* defiance, of its vote for seven months. . It. had evidently been discontinued then- to avoid the consequences ih; the- House. If the matter was now passed dyer, he believed the Waka Maori: would .speedily 'reappear, probably under -a joint;; stock .company composed of the seven, .members ; of 'the Ministry. ; As' a matter • of A foot, "he J belieyed.a number' was., ready .for ,pub-

lication, but the Ministers were afraid to issue it. He believed the costs and damages in the Hon. H. Russell's case 1 would be at:least L6OOO. Mr Kussell's alone were L 2400.- Nothing Mr Whi-; taker had said showed the words ofthe, motion in effect were not strictly accurate.- : The paper was published and' written. .by Government officers, with Government' money,' on Government paper,. with Government ink, and sent free through post by Government authority.' He did not believe in confidential guarantees from gentlemen whose harries could not be divulged. The Hon. Major Atkinson : I am ono. *

. Mr Lusk: Yes, the head and front of the offending: for the last year. The Premier had fully, understood the import of the vote, and .promised the paper should Be discontinued. The Government had with public funds carried on the paper for personal and party purposes, and it was 'now said they had -not as-a. Government any, responsibility. Ministers could not, know distinctions such, as, he wished between their private position and 'their public . one. Mr Whitaker's speech might be "taken as the speech for the defendant, and if so it was a vpry poor defence.

Mr, Button, said this want, of confidence motion had been brewing ever since the session met. The mountain had been in labour and had 'brought forth a ridiculous mouse. Mr Larnach, now the champion ofthe Opposition, had; until lately ever since this question arose been an avowed supporter of the Opposition; Probably 'he had not been able to resist the temptation of being offered the position of leader. He denied that Mr Rees' motion was identical with Mr Larnach's. It was most unfair now to say there were other charges behind. Why keep on skirmishing instead of having a fair pitched battle to settle matters once for all? Mr Whitaker had entirely satisfied him of the falsity of the allegations in the motion, and 'he took Mr Whitaker's word in preference to Mr Lusk's assertions. He was quite satisfied with the general policy oi the present Goverment, and until he saw good and substantial ground for changing, he would support them, and not change sides on such a farce as this.

Mr Evans Brown supported the motion, because he regarded the continuance ofthe publication ofthe Waka* Maori as a direct defiance and challenge to the House after the vote of last session. lie would, therefore, support the motion.

• Mr Fitzro'y thought it clear that the paper had been supported purely by volunrary subscriptions. He would, therefore, vote against the motion.

Mr Hoani Nahi last year had wished the paper continued, hence the letter he and other's bad sent.' The paper, however, had not been carried . on in the manner they had suggested in the letter, and trouble had arisen. The Maoris are anxious to have a Maori paper, but since he saw the trouble which had arisen, he could not support that desire.

Mr Manders thought the Government should consider the question of reconstruction, so as to put themselves more in accord with the feeling of the House. He would support them on the present occasion, but urged them seriously to consider the desirability of reconstruction.

Mr Wakefield believed the costs in Mr Russell's case would exceed L6OOO, even without counting the amount of salaries of Government officials employed for months in trumping up evidence.' Four-fifths of the alleged pressure from Natives to continue the paper was got up by Government officers, and afforded no excuse to Government. He would have had some rpspect for the Government if they said they had carried on the paper because they thought ifc right to dp so. The alleged guarantee to Government having been set up, the House had a right to know who it was that had contracted with the Government to save it from loss by publishing* 'the Waka Maori. Mi* Harper did not think "the Ministry could be held responsible for 'the appearance of the libel on Mr Russell, although they might have been guilty of an error of judgment in defending it in the way they did. .

Mr Thomson thought as history was allowed to be taught in Government schools, an interesting text, book ofthe history of the Colony might be com-' piled from Mr Whitaker's speeches in Hansard. That night- he had given them an interesting history of Maori newspapers; from .the earliest period. His quoting. from Todd to show what' this motion" meant was simply ridiculous. Mr Larnach was quite, as well aware as he was of the • consequences, and as well able to. conduct .the,. affairs of the country if called, on. According to Parliamentary, practice, the Ministry had really. been a continuous one from 1869,* and he. failed altogether to apprehend Mr Whitaker's. position. I'he reasons given by >liim for continuing the publication were* by no means satisfactory.^ He remembered distinctly that Major Atkinson promised' to dis-, continue thepdper'if the vote for L4OO was .struck put. . It wirs a' vei-y damaging statement to . say that'" 'Ministers were' as private persons 'to support the paper., by. means of ' Government mjachin'pry. . What;, would, the House think of thie same principle , applied to .Native .-land / r purpHses-? ' The I Waka /Maori, 'was , a very 'trashy publication

and not at all calculated to raise the Maori mind in'the scale of civilisation. Nothing had been advanced to show any justification of the Government; in defying the expressed wishes of the House. Tt was a very serious thino-, overnment carrying on a newspaper in which libels appeared, as anyone who was libelled, had, in seeking redress, to contend with the wealth and influence of Government.

Mr Gibbs would not vote to turn the present Government out to replace them by Mr Larnach and unknown* members with an unknown policy.

Mr Hodgkinson supported the motion. In defying . the vote and. wishes of the House, Government had violated the principles of constitutional government in. a most flagrant manner. If Ministers really regarded test session's vote in the manner now set up, why did they discontinue the' Waka Maori 1* Their doing so was an admission that they did not understand the vote, and they had revived the paper on false pretences. He believed many members would follow Ministers into the lobby knowing, they were condoning a grave constitutional wrong, and sanctioning Government maintaining a newspaper to attack the honour and reputation of private citizens.

The Hon. ,Mr Bowen did not wonder the debate was dragging so miserably, for probably such a vote of want of confidence was never before moved. Government expected general criticism of their conduct and policy, and the speaker had invited this, but the question had been narrowed clown to the one matter oi the Waka Maori. I After the vote of last session Government were very willing to drop the paper, but a cry had come from all parts ,! of the Colony from the Native people, and at the instigation of the Natives Government deemed it desirable to maintain the paper in such a way as not to involve any cost to the Colony. This was the whole casein a nutshell. It was for this the House was now asked to censure the Ministry. The libel on Mr Sheehan appeared before the vote of last session, therefore the guarantors in December or January were in no way liable for what appeared in September. The whole question was threadbare, and he would ask the House if it intended this to be a party vote to discuss the whole policy of the Govern-' ment, or if not lo make up their minds honestly whether Government having carried on the Waka Maori as they did was a reason for turning them out.

Mr Travers supported the motion. He was disappointed Mr Whitaker had not boldly avowed what had been done and asked the House to condone it, rather than use such special pleading, What the House meant in the vote of last session was that Government should have nothing more to do with the Waka Maori. They had disregarded the palpable intention of the House, and still issued the paper with the Government imprimature. If Government had simply said tbey had done this believing it- necessary for the good ofthe Maori people, the House might have respected their frankness and forgiven the offence. Government should, when it found its libels on Mr Russell could not be justified, have apologised and withdrawn them frankly and fully. The whole conduct ofthe Government in regard to the paper, however, had been a mistake, and showed great want of candour. Until Mr Whitaker spoke, not a member in the House knew about these, guarantees, and it was because of this that a false issue was raised. It was unworthy of Government to have so quibbled. The existence of Government should depend on a full examination 'of their policy, and if this took place, he believed 'th'&'t policy would be found rotten at the core* and tbey would be relegated to private life. Plenty of opportunities for such discussion would certainly arise.. The really important question was finance, yet they had not the Public Works Estimates yet before them, and Government had not raised a single definite issue in regard to. the financial policy, "such as would 'enable the Opposition to meet them fairly. He thought the public interests demanded a change of Ministry, because the present one was not strong enough to carry out an honest or sound policy. .