ABOLITION OF UPPER HOUSE

Chronicle (Levin), 6 August 1947, Page 6

ABOLITION OF UPPER HOUSE

; MR. HOLLAND MOVES BILL IN PARLIAMENT WELLINGTON, August 5. Withont any of the heated debate which had been expected in sonie quarters, the .Bill sponsored by Mr. Holland, providing for • the aliolition oT-Hhe Legislative . \ Council, was ,inti;odueed in the House of Represeiitatives this afternoon, read a 'first time and set/ down for the feohd reading tomqrr.ow. Althougf two\ members of ; the , Opposition supported Mr. Holland- when he. moved for the right to introduce the Bill, the only member of the Governinent to speak was the Prime Minister, Mr. Fraser, who said the sooner the Bill was put on the order paj>er the better and hc would facilitate this being done. . .. Earlier, when Mr. Fraser interjeeted to ask Mr. T. C. "Webb (Rodney) how it was proposed to put the Bill through the Legislative Council itself, Mr. Webb replied: "We will.take our hurdles when we come to them." Mr. F. W. Doidge offered as a solution. of this problem the suggestion that the Prime Minister should appoint to the Council sufficient members pledged to support its abolition to ensure the passage of the Bill.

Mr. Holland gave as tlie cliief reason for seeking to abolish the Council, that it had ceased to play any useful part in the legislative system of New Zealand and declared that whatcver its past importance, it was no longer a position' to inform or refleet public opinion. Mr. Holland said he felt he should. mahe oue or two observations upon the very interesting procedure on which they were now embarking. The Bill was of very great iiiterest to the whole eountry and had its controversial aspects. Nothing involving an alteration of our constitution or constitutional procedure could be lightly embarked upon and he was confident the Bill would be closely esamined by all members regardiess of political afliliations and regardiess of whether or not they' favoured the Bill. Mr. Holland said he wished to make it clear that there was no attempt by the Opposition to make an attaek, implied or otkerwise, upon members of the Council who were entitled to all respect. It was the constitution wliich was being questioned, not the personnel of the Council. Mr. Holland said he believed the abolition of the Council, at least in its present i'orm, was desired by a very great majority of the people and he believed that if members of the House were free to vote as they wished, the Bill would be passed by a large majority of elected representatives of

the people. Mr. Langstone; Hear, hear. Mr. Holland said' it was equally easy to predict the fate of the Bill if it reached the Legislative Council. Mr. Holland added that there were many pi'ecedents for a Bill seeking to abolish or alter the constitution of the Legislative Council. Some of the. ; past attempts had succeeded and some had failed. There had been a time when the Council consisted of life members who could jiqt be removedwhatever they did, but discontent with that system of appointment led to its replacement with the present system of appointment for seven years on the; nomination of the Government of the day. In 1914 a Bill was enacted providing for a Council elected on the basis of proportional representation. All that had since been requircd was the gazetting of an Order-in-Council glviug eifect to that Act but 110 Government since had thought it desirable to make sucli a change. It niight be said the Council once performed a useful funetion as a revisory chamber but that had not been so for many years past and' there had been tiines wlien a Bill which had occnpied the House of Eepresentatives for many sittings, was rushed through the Council in one sitting. There was a time too when worthwhile legislation originated in the Council but that practice had dlso long fallen into disuse. The Council was sometimes uscd by the Government for ccrrecting mistakes. niade .during rush legislation in the House of Eepresentatives but that was, no recommendation for the Council. The Council, for the past 12 to 15 years, had not performed any useful funetion and was unable to inform or to refleet public opinion. The Council, having lost cllective contact with public opinion, had failed in its purpose and could exercise no roa! influence on tlie passage of the eountry 's legislation.

The system of appointment to the Council was a bad oue and he meant 110 olfence to the present Government or present members of the Council ' when he said that the system was Jargely oue of enabling the party in powor to ro ward those who had been of scrviee to it. Mr. Langstone: Hear, hear. Mr. Holland said the system had been in vogue for many years and the present Government had not initiated it. . Inescapably, however, a chamber so constituted could not retaiu the confldence of the people. The appointment to the Council of those who had sat in opposition to the Government was rare. Mr. Holland said he had, in the past, twice nominated persons ior appointment to the Council 'but they were not appointed and he gave up the practice, considering it harmed rather than helped the individuals concerned. One person he had suggested wah the late Mr. George Porbes, a former Prime Minister, who was a member of the House for more than 30 years. Who could have been better qu'alified to sit in a revisory chamber? Yet Mr. Forbes was not appointed and the opportunity of demonstrating that appointments to the Council could rise above party politics,, was lost. Eepeating his c-laim tliat the Bill had vvidespread support throughout the eountry, Mr. Holland said lie, was couscious that in many countries a second House was part of the legislative system but the Opposition 's proposal was that, as the present Council had ceased to be an effeetive part of our legislative system, it should be abolished. If the need for a second chamber were demoustrated in later years, a new bodv could be established' after considering the various second chamber systems existing in other countries. Mr. * IT olland- me.nti oncd- t-lvat -he *h a Ha- personally studiod difforcnt systoms for th£

second House obtaining in the Australian Btates, to iind out which was the most useful. • Mr. Holland said we had to mend 01 end the Legislative Council and in his belief it was beyond repair and should be abolished. Intention to do this had been expressed in the National Party 's policy. It was, or had been, in the policy of the Labour Party althouglx it had fallen rather iuto disuse recentiy in Government quarters. Mr. Holland .quotcd the Minister of Finance as saying that as far as he knew the Labour Party policy was unaltered in regard to the abolition of the Council and who should know his party 's policy better than the Minister of Finance? The Opposition was exercising its constitutional right in introducing legislation which the people really wanted. Mr. Holland asked for a fair run for his Bill. He said he did not ask for mercy or charity but for a "fair go." Governinent voices: You will get it. Mr. Webb, supportiug the motion reiterated that uo attaek' was beiug made upon members of the Council but only upon the institutiou. Mr. Fraser: You come to bury Caesai not to praise him. •; Mr. Webb, coucurring, said the institutiou had outlived its usefulness. He waa sure the vast uiajority of Govern ment members favoured the Bill. The Leader of the Oppositiou had not nceded to appeal for a fair run for the Bill He was bound to get it because mem bers of the (government would welcomt it with open arms. It was doubtful if 'there- ever had been. a Bill so fullj meeting the wishes of both sides of the House.

"I can, tell by the look of the faces of Goveriinxent members that they welcome the Bill, " said Mr. Webb. Mr. Fraser: Members of the Government can enjoy a joke too. Mr. Webb said the Bill was wliat members of the GdVcrnment had been loolriiig for for yda'rs and they were glad tlie Oppositioii had hcliied them out of a dolicate situation by introducing the mcasure. He predicted that a "hatful" of Government members would vote for the Bill. Mr. Webb said the late Prime Minister, Mr. Savage, had supported the abolition of the Council as had Government menlbers still"in the House. He read an extract , frp.iu. Hansarcl of a specfeh favourihg' ftie^ abolition of the Legislative Council. In answer to interjections of "tell us who said that?" Mr. Webb replied that the speech was made in the House in 1925 by "a Mr. Fraser who, if my memory seryes me -rightly, is still a member of ' the Hohse and occupies a very promiuent' position". Mr. Fraser joined in the laughter. Mr. Webb said he knew no reason wliy the Council should be perpetuated. To "cut its liead ofl:" need not be a lengthy operation and would rid tlie eountry of an institution no longer useful. Mr. Fraser: How does the lionourabte gentleman propose to get the -Bil! through another place? Mr. Webb replied that the hurdles would be takeu as they were reached. If the Prime Minister would eooperate with the Oppositioiu, ways and means of passing the Bill could certainly be found. Mr. Webb said Quoenslanu abolished the second. House of its legis lature about 25-. years ago aud had never felt the need to restore it. Hc |believred that in New Zealand we might

we'll follovv the suggestion which the Prime Minister had made so long ago. of- appointing a commission of members of the House of Eepresentatives to revise Bills as they were passed. Certainly the Legislative Council for many years had not originated any legislation of importance.' Mr. Cotterill: Wliat about tlie Alsatian Dog Bill? Mr. F. W. Doidge (Tauranga) said there were members on the Government benehes who wero ardent protagonists for the abolition of the Upper House. Mr. Fraser: We,: are' anxious to sec the Bill so that we- can have the second reading tomorrow, Mr. D. W. Coleman (Gisborne): Let us see the BilL =: \ ! Mr. Doidge" askeQ if the silence from th'e Government benehes which now prevailed, was due to "whips cracking" because it was in contrast to what had been heard on the election hustings. It would be agreed that when the Bill went to ' ' anothef place ' ' ■ it would go before those, 90 per cent. of whom were Labour supporters aud officials who had in the past, however, supported moves to "do away with the Legislative Council. The Upper House ,had never been anyfhing more thau a sham. '• Mr. Osborne: How about the Alsatian Dog Bill? (Laughter.) * Mr. Doidge said that throughout the people had been critical of the Legislative Council and sceptical of its work He reviewed at some length the eft'orts of Sir George Gtey and other great flgures to bring down measures to abolish the Upper House and added that it was amusing to note how, from time to time, the Legislative Couaei) had been stuffed) for party purposes. He suggested that the Prime Minister adopt the course which Mr. Ballance and, Miv -Massey gfc'ollowed and put in the Upper ITouse enougli members who ) liQ.fi plodgod lliomselvo.s to abolish tho

institution and tlien the measure would go through. There had been and there was no justifieation for the Upper House. 1 ' Our- first job is to get rid of an ntterly useless institution," said Mr. Doidge. The Governinent was now in honout bound to put this' issue to the test and the vote of Parliament. Mr. Fraser suggested that the sooner the Bill was put on the order paper the better, as that would -give an op portunity for full diseuesion tomorrow. He said he wanted to facilitate and help in a matter of this deseription. The Bill wus read a first time ano tlie second reading was set down for tomorrow. 1 "Preferably at 7.30 p.m.," said Mr.. Holland, laughing. Clauses of Bill The Bill contains four clauses. The operative clause states that the Legislative Council of New Zealand shall be abolished and that the-seat oi' every member of the Council shall, on and " after the commencement of the legislation, be vacant. All ofiices con stituted or created in connection witli the Legislation Council shall also be abolished and all appropriations in respect thereof shall be repealed. Anv reference in any Act, ordinance, rule, regulation, instrument or writing whatsoever, to the General Assembly, legislature, Parliament or to botli Honses of Parliament., or any reference deemel to include a reference to the Legislative Council, shall be construed to refer only to his Excellency the Governor-Genei-al with the advice and consent of the House of Eepresentatives, or only to the House of Eepresentatives, as the coutext may require. Another clause provides for the repeal of division one of the Legislature Act, 1908, and all amendments to any of the seetions comprised in sucli diviti . ~ ...

siou, the Legislative Council Act, 1914, The- Legislative Council Amendment Act, 1918, and the Legislative Cohncil Amendment Act, 1920. It" is stated that the Bill shall come into-t'orce 011 a date to be appointed by proclamation but sucli date- shall not be within one vear from tlie date of the passing of the Bill. ^