OPPOSITION ATTACK; GOVERNMENT DEFENCE

Chronicle (Levin), 25 July 1946, Page 7

OPPOSITION ATTACK; GOVERNMENT DEFENCE

-Press Association

No-Confidence Debate Over Minister's Action

By Telegraph-

WELLINGTON, July 24. A suggestion that the retiriixg Chief Justice, Sir Michael Myers, be appointqd a Commissioner to inquire into matters involved in the Hon. C. F. Skinner's request for Mr. S. Lewis, chairmari of the " Hamilton . Land Saies Committee, to resign, was made by Mr. C. G. Harker (Waipawa) when the debate on Mr. Holland's no-confidence motion was resnmed in the House of Kepresentatives this afternoon. Mr. \V. J. Polson (Stratford) asked why had the Minister of Lands refused to let Mr. Lewis peruse the evidenee vvliich was used against liim. Why did the Minister coueeal the facts from Mr. Lewis. He (Mr. Polson) felt compietely disgusted with the statements made by the Minister of Health last night and with the assertion nuido by the Member for Grey Lynn (Mr. P. liackett) that Mr. Lewis should be ; struck off the rolls. Mr. Polson said the alleged evidenee which the Minister of Lands gave the House was obviously prepared. There was suppression and dislortion in both Ministers' statements which wero damaging to the j : eharacter and reputation of an honour-i able inan and whieli should never have] been made in the House. Why, whenj ■ the Minister of Lands met Mr. Lewis j in Hamilton and at Mr. Lewis 's request questioued Mr. Lewis 's colleagues, did the Minister tell the House what those colleagues told him'? Why, when Ihe Ministers were houuding Mr. ■ Lewis down, did they conceal all the 'facts and also the faet that although Mr. Lewis had repeatedly asked for tlie iul'oriuation on wliich the Minister acted, to prcpare his defence, it was

denied him? Mr. Polson said Mr. ; Lewis had declared in the last 24 iiours, ! that the statements made by Govern-j nient Members in the llouse last night i were untrue and there was an answer to evcry oue of the allegatious. Mr. JSpeaker, who was asked by llon. L). G. bullivan to rulo 011 a point ot" [ order concerning the use of the wordj "untrue," replied that he understood' Mr. Polson to say M r. Lewis said the statements were untrue. Mr. Polson said the statement was made by Mr. Lewis by telephone last night. lle considered Mr. Lewis was eutitled to the fullest iuquiry into the ■ allegatious. The Minister of Health had attacked him (Mr. Lewis) in a vehenient and angry fashion, and had endeavoured to daniage Mr. Lewis '3 reputatiou which would lice Iong aftcr the Minister of Health had disappeared. The facts about the case in which a rental was reduced, were that Mr. Lewis's colleagues inspected the prop1 erty and told Mr. Lewis it looked all ; rig'ht to tlieiu and Mr. Lewis pursucd ■ a course that had been followed in 1 similar circumstances all over kew : Zealand, by seeing tlie registrar and ' bringing the case on because it was unj, likely to be coutested.. At.the hearing the Crowu witness had raised objections and the rent was reduced. An : appeal was lodged — \ Mr. J. Thorn (interjectingj : When? ; When? i ! Mr. Polson: 1 cannot say. ' Mr. A. G. Osborne: On tlie last dav. Mr. .J. T. Watts: What does that niatter so long as it was within the 14 days i j Mr. Polson, who received the information from an Opposition member, said the appeal was lodged on July 12

and surely the Minister niust have .known that but had deliberately suppressed that infonnation. Mr. W. .A. Sheat: The Minister of Health said 110 appeal had been lodged. Mr. Polson, continuing, said that to ratify by approval of the House, the actions of the Minister of Lands, would be to agree that justice could be distorted at the will of a Minister of the (Jrown. I11 this case, if the magistrate were to be dismis'sed, who could accept the doubtful distinction of sueecediug him ? Opposition Voiee: A party liaek. Mr.' Polson said it was implied that only a partisan would accept the appointment. No nian with any selfrespect would submit to the attitude the Minister of Lands had adopted. Who would then have any conlidence in a court so constituted? The ell'ect of this disustroua decision by the Minister of Lands would weaken and cheapen justice from oue end of New Zealand to the other. A Minister or Government which allowed sucli an ; event to happen and marshalled ' f cohorts of the Minister's to support : such actions, was not eutitled to the conlidence of the eountry.

Mr. C. H. Chapman. Mr. C. H. Chapman (Wellington JS'orth) said Mr. Polson, in ell'ect, had' claimed that any successor to Mr. Lewis niust have the predetermined acquiescence of the Minister of Lands. It, was more correct to say that Mr. Lewis 's successor must certainly acquiesce in the principles of tlie Land i Saies Act. IS'o chairniun who failed to ! interpret the law he adniinistered, in Ihe spirit in which it was enacted, should be left undisturbed in ollico. If any chairman of a Land Saies Committee llagrantly attempted to sabotago • Government policy on a niatter of this kind, the Minister was eutitled to ask , him to resign. Opposition voiee: That did not happen and you know it. Mr. Chapman said the purpose of the no-conlidence motion was not to vindicate Mr. Lewis but to enablc the Opposition to attack the Land hlales Act. Mr. W. A. liodkin: lt has never been questioued during the discussion. Mr. Chapman said the Opposition fought this piece of legislatiou strenuously in the House and duringjhe last election and the Opposition had dono Mr. Lewis an ill scrvicO by dragging him tluough the mire of this debate. Mr. C. G. Harker. Mr. C. G. Harker (Waipawa) said Mr. Chapman had advoeated that the law should be interpreted not according to the words of 'the statute, but according to the opinions of the Government of the day. Mr. Holland's disclosure of tampering with the law was all the more alaruiing because three Ministers had attempted to justify it. Mr. Harker expressed -sMteprise that the Minister • oT-HemlihGikdyin ell'ect, made charges not only agaihst Mr. Lewis, but also against his feliow members of the Hamilton Land Bales" Committee, Mr. A. C. Bai'rell, who was a former Meni- | ber of the House, and Mr. Bilcoek. Mr. Harker said he was. _ scandaliscd that. despite these serious charges, not oue of Mr. Barrell's former colleagues— members of the Government — had said a word in his defence. j "As a member of the Oppositioa, 1 am pleased to say I don't believe oue ! I word of tlie serious charges levelled I against Mr. Barrell by the Minister of Health, ' ' said Mr. Harker. " It is amazing that none of the members of the Hamilton Land Bales Committee has been told beforehand of the charges which the Minister of Health has brought against thern in the House. The Minister of Health knew that all these charges could have beeu blown out 11 they had been brought lirst to the notice of the persous concerned." Mr. Harker then suggested that the Government should appoint the Chiel Justice, Sir Michael Myers, as a CoruI missioner to examine the following ! points: — ! Firstly, the charges hy the Minister | of Lands against Mr. Lewis. | S'econdly, the charges hy the Minister , of Health against all three members of ■ the Hamilton Land Saies Committee. i Thirdly, tne whole conduct of tne | Minister of Lands and his departmental officers towards the Land Saies Court I and its subsidiary committees. Mr. Harker said it was not Ihe regular departmentnl officers who would1 come out of such au iuquiry with dis-; credit and not members of the Hamil-_ tou committee, but the Minister and hts! | satellites who would stand arrainged before the comniunity. Mr. llarker said it had been suggested that the Minister had also iutertered with the worlc of auother Land Bales Conuuitteo's chairman. 'I have been : inl'onned 011 unimpeacliable authority, 1 that the Minister has made a charge | against the chairman of the Land -Saies ' Committee of my own district, on tlie ground that complaints against him had been received from the Hawke's Bay Law Society," said Mr. llarker. The ! Hawke's Bay Law Society, however, with which he had communicated, said ! it .liad received no conip'laints against 1 thi.s chairman nor had it niade any j against a man who had acted with utmost propriety. I Mr. Harker said the Government, no 1 less than Mr. Bkinuer, was respousible j because not oue Government speaker 1 had sought to dissociate himself from j the Minister 's ac-tion. It would be a sorry day for tliis countrv if we wero ! to have the Act interpreted by the | wliim of a Minister or Government. j Mr. Bkin,uer, rising to a point of order, said Mr. Harker 's statement was niost delinitely and emphatieally incorrect. He had not told anyoue that he had received complaints from the Hawke's Bay Law Society, nor had he ■ in faet received any such complaints. Mr. Clyde Carr I Mr. Clyde Carr (Timaru) said the Op1 position had come out of the debate 1 (Contmued on £age 8) ..

NO-CONFIBENCE DEBATE (Continued from Page 7) very , badly and with burnt fingers. AIr. Lewis did have every chanee of elearing himself. The Minister wrote hini a niee frank and covdial letter. Opposition voice: Asking him to resign. Mr. Clyde Carr: Quietly asking him to withdraw. The Opposition had done everything possible "to whip up entliusiasm and mdignation which might justifiably arouse some publie feeling but had failed dismally. Every failure by a Land Saies Committee or chairman to implement the Land Saies Aet, was a blow at returned servicemen. It was beeause oi: the Hinister's eoneern for returned servicemen that he insisted that the legislation fulfilled its purpose. The Opposition had attempted to make a mountain out of a molehill. Land Saies Oommittecs were temporarv conunittoes set up to deal with oue specifie job for a limited time. How could they be regarded as part of . iio judicial svstem? The Minister had no [lower to infiuenee Court procedure during the eonduct' of the Court, but there was a dill'erence betvveen that and dealing with a Governinent servant who was failing to carry out his obvious duties. Tlie Opposition believed in th i principle of hire and ihe and had praetised it down throughout history. Mr. 10. B. Corbett: Not with judicial I officers. Mr. Bowden: So he was fired. | Mr. Clyde Carr said he had not the islightest doubl: AIr. Lewis would have resigned but he had been badly advised by someone who thought thei'G was a chanee of liaving "a erack" at tlie Oovernment. Mr. R. M. Algie: No ono. likes llogging a dead horsc. Mr. Clyde. Carr said he eonsidcred Mr. Lewis had been guilty of reprehensible conduct and Ihe Minister took Ihe kindest way out. It was a pity Mr. Lewis had not takou advanlage of it. Mr. R. G. Gerard ' Mr. 11. G. Gerard (Mid-Canterburv) askod would the Minister of Lamls deny he had approached other Land Saies Conmiittee ehairnum asking theni to alter their attitude or they would recoive the same treatment as Lewis'? The whole method of handling this case was a travesty of British justice aua righls of the individual. Mr. R. M. Macfarlane AI~r. B. M. Macfarlane (Christchurch South) said the present discussion was nothing more or less than a political stunt by the Opposition. The Crown had been ignored in several matters and AI r. Lewis had been guilty of a grave derelection of dutv. The Minister was perfectly justified in taking the action he did. Mr. J. T. Watts | The person 011 trial was the Minister I of Rehabilitation and not AEr. Lewis, said JVLr. J. T. Watts (Riccarton). The details Ministers had read to the House of the transactions of the Hamilton Land Saies Committee, were extracts from case reports compiled for the 'Minister by officers inside the department. They were not official reports. AI r. Lewis said that the details he had sought from the Alinister of cases quoted, had still not been supplied to him.

Mr. Skinner: That is not correet. ALr. Watts said tlie Opposition had a full sense of responsibility in moving the niotion of no-conlidence for tlie first time in the history of this Parliament. Whai had lmppened was onc of the most serious things in the history of Ihe Labour Governinent. No man should bo coiidoinned or dismissed by a Minister witliout tirst being heard in his own defence. Even the mere fact that a breatli of scandal had touclied an elcction in this eountry, and now the judicial svstem, was enough for Ihe Governinent to forfeit tlie confidence of the eountry. He found it very liard to beliove that Mr. Lewis gave a decision wiGiout consulting other membors of Ihe comiiiittoo who would not have slood for that.

Mr. Skinner, rcplying to a question i;-y Mr. Watts who askod who was eluiirlrian of tlie Hamilton Land, Sn.les .pommitlee, ,sai(V ;3|evvis|jstili|Vya.^. y Mr. Waits: This is tlfe ntan--wbp'!5abp-taged tlie Aet. He is.stjll'Hi offi'e'e Land has probably liandled several liundred cases sinep the Afinisler wrote to him. Whai is the explanation? Mr. Clyde-Carr: He has changod his tune since. Mr. W. M. C. Denliam.

Mr. W. M. G. Denliam (Tnvercargill) said tlie Opposition had condemned the Minister witliout liaving seen the official tiles which contnined everything to justify the Alinister's action. ITad he been the Minister he .would have dismissed Mr. Lewis. Mr. M. H. Oram. Mr. M. H. Oram (Mauawatu) said according to his inforination Mr. Lewis had never been asked for any report at all in llie cases quoted by the two Alinisters, and Mr. Lewis was ignorant of the allegations against him until he heard tliem over tlie air last night. Also, according to his inforination, Mr. Lewis could give satisfaetory explanations of all cases provided he was given the necessarv file numbers. It had not lieen proved that Mr. Lewis gave decisions on his own and he did not know of any case where Mr. Lewis sat alone. That was up to the Governinent lo prove. The suggestion that the Cliief Justice should be appointed as a Commission to inquire into the whole matter, should be given elteet to so that Mr. Lewis would have sonie^ opportunity of answering the charges so wantonly brought against him.

Hon. R. Sernple. Hon. R, Semple, when subjected to frequent interjections from the Opposition, said the Opposition had previously done a lot of talldng about hooliganism at Huntly during the byelection canipaign, but there had been more than enough hooliganism in the House in the last two days. He did not intend to be prevented from making himself heard by "a lot of sub-human noises." Mr. Lewis 's conduct in attempting to persuade an officer of the State and his two colleagues on the committee, to settle. a question, of. the

rental of a property behind sealed doors, and pay £329 secretly to the vendor whom he represented, was open to severe censure. If his colleagues had not refused to be led up the gar-l den path, and. the case had not comel before the committee, there would noti have been a reduction of the rental | from £329 to £201 10s. Some person | would have had to pay an additionall £2 10s weekly and that money would | have gone into the pocket of the ven-| dor and some of it into his. If tliat' was clean work, said Mr. Semple, hej could not understand it. Would tli e ! Opposition sav that was the way to administer the law? "I. say it is trickery bordering on graft. It is not crieket." If that cliarge alone could be sustalned against Mr. Lewis, then he was unfit to hohl office. The Opposition said the Avhole affair was based on tittle-tattlc and Gesta]io reports. "You cannot call this man a Geslapo man," said Mr. Semple, pointing to Mr. Skinner. "He left. his wife and family to go and fight the Gestapo. " It was a eoinnior., dirty game to use that word in refercnce to a Minister and his officers. Ilad the chairman of the committee been a Labour man the Opposition would not have attempted to defend him and there would have'be.en none of the comic opera which had been staged in the past 24 hours. Instead Ihe incident would have been used in the oiiposite way to demonstrate that a Labour man was unfit for pub'lic office. Beeause AT r. Lewis was a meniber of the legal fraternitv and a supporter of the National Party, the Opposition had made a great fuss be-( fore a packed gallery "brought here by telephone messages all day long. " Mr. Harker: Was the Minister Jistcning in ?

Mr. Semple said he had never seen a greater bluff artist„than the Leader of the Opposition. " What tickles me most is that the Opposition are'posing as defenders of liberty. The Leader of the Opposition presents himself as a political Aloses eoine to lead the people out of a political wilderness and free tliem from Gestapo shackles fastened iqion them by the Labour Parlv," Mr. Semple said. Although the Opposition had referred to certain civil ' servauts connected with the Hamilton incident as tittletattlers, they did not hesitate to use civil. servauts as pimps when it suited them. He dec*lared that statenients made in the House recentlv by jMr. Alackley and ' Afr. Polson had been based 011 secret documents. Air. Alackley had quoted iigures which must conie from a docuinent olitained either from the Treasury or Railwavs Department. Air. Polson had quoted flgures iii regard to opencast mining which 11111 st have come from a document that had been ' ' piuched. ' ' ■ Air. Hollaud: Afe vou suggesting tlu* Alember for Stratford stole tliem? AJr. Semple: No. I didn 't mean that. Air. Alackley, who had just re-entered

the Ilouse, intervened to ask Afr. Semple if the figures given about tlu railwavs were correet or incorrect. Air. Semple: They were from a secret document. i Arr. Alackley: I challenge the Alinis1 tcr to say I had a eon versation witli any oue about them. Government voices: Wliere did von get them from?

ATr. Alackley: Out of my ho'nd. ATr. Osborne: You don 't get figures 1 ik 0 that from. wood. ; . AfV. Semple said i't was imposs ible for any person to haye. produced out of his head figures sueh as/ Aft. MaciUey had quoted 011 tlie estimated raiiway, ' ekpenditure. Afr. Semple said the Gen-eral-Manager of Railwavs was trying to find out who pinches figures from the departmental office. Afr. Semple said

he had in tlie past furnished figures required by tlie Opposition niembers concerning departmental afi'airs. He would at any time do so as readily for the Opposition as for membors of tlie Government. To obtain eonfidential figures was a vile thing, yet menibcrs of tlie Opposition 'had attac-ked a departmental officer on whom Arr. Skinner deponded for telling Ihe tvut.li to his minister. When it suited the Opposition they used pimps but when Air. Skinner used inforination supplied by ah officer he could trust, they called that officer a sneak. Mr. Alackley asked permission of the ITonse to explain how he arrived at the figures he had used. If the Minister wonld come to Mr. Alackley 's office he could see exactlv how the figures wefe arrived at. "They were arrived at by mvself and my secretarv witliout consulting any railway officer, nor have I seen any railway document," said Air. Alackley. ATr. Polson also made an explanation, saying Mr. Semple was entirely rfiistaken. "T have at the moment a letter in my oflice from a very high official who gave me the iigures I used," said Ah-. Polson. "He said that as a publie man I ought to be in possession of those figures. ' '

Government voices: Opposition pimps! Mr. Polson said he had explained when using the figures, how he obtained them. He supposed the eminent engineer who furnished them ' to' him had worked tliem out for himself. He had no knowledge of any secret document. Air. Semple explained that after the figures were quoted by Air. Polson, he had telephoned the under-secretary asking for the file which would contain the figures quoted. The under-secretary went to get the file but found it, missing. Several days later it was put back into its £laces _ _ ,