PRIVATE P. C. WEBB, M.P.

Press, Volume LIV, Issue 16162, 16 March 1918, Page 10

PRIVATE P. C. WEBB, M.P.

CHARGE OF •'WILFUL DEFIANCE OF AUTHORITY." •9 TRIAL BY COURT-MARTIAL. (special to "the WELLINGTON, March 15. This morning at Trentham Camp a District Court-martial was held fpr the purpose of trying 75301 Private P. C. Webb. The court consisted of Major D. W. Talbot (president), and Captains A. L. Gray and F. F. Bennetts (members). Colonel C. R. MacDonalJ, 1.G.5., Chief Infantry Instructor, acted as judge advocate, and Lieutenant G. Galloway as prosecutor. The accused soldier is charged under Section 9 of the Army Act- with disobeying in such a manner as to show wilful defiance of authority, a lawful command given personally by his superior officer in the execution of liis office, in that he at Trentham Camp on the 11th day of March, 1918, when personally ordered to take his issue of kit, refused. Carrying a bulky volume and several papers, Private Webb was escorted by the military police to the place assigned for him, seats being provided. "Have you any counsel?" asked Colonel Mac Donald. "No," replied Webb. "Do you object to be tried by this court-martial?" "Certainly not," Webb replied. QUESTION OF SHORTHAND WRITER. Asked if he objected to the shorthand writer (a man in uniform), Webb replied to the effect that he did »iot objcct to the man personally. Ho had had some experioncc of shorthand tcporters, and strictly objected to any amateur shorthand writer attemptmg to take down his speeches. In reply to Colonel Mac Donald, the shorthand writer said he had not taken am- certificate. . Private Webb then formally objects! to the shorthand writer. Colonel Mac Donald pointed out again that Webb was entitled to object, but the decision in the matter was on© for the court. . , , The court conferred, and announced its decision to overrule the objection. Colonel Mac Donald expressed the opinion that in fairness to the accused the objection should be allowed. The court again considered the matter. and decided to allow the objection. The court then adjourned until the afternoon in order to obtain a certificated shorthand writer. When the court re-assembled Ihe president said that the court had been unable to procure a certificated shorthand writer for the time being, I'nd proposed to proceed. Webb again protested. It was explained to him that efforts had been made to get a shorthand writer from, town, arriving at about 3 o'clock, and it as proposed to go on with the evidence" for the prosecution in the meantime. Accused "was assured tli&t everv facility would be given to null for making .'a statement. He could even write out his address and read it to +he court.. . Wel>h preferred to address himself to the court verbally. A PLEA OF "NOT GUILTY." The taking of evidence was then agreed upon. , The charge was then read over, to Webb. ' The President (to Webb): Are yon guilty of the charge made agaanst you bv Colonel Mac Donald? * "I am guilty, sir," replied Webb. Colonel Mac Donald explained that it accused pleaded guilty the court would have no option but to find him guilty, and anv address he would make would only be by way of mitigation of punishment. He told Webb if he thought, he had any good reason for disobeying orders, it would perhaps be better if he pleaded not guilty. Webb said he must plead guilty to the charge as read out to him, but he hoped to be able to show the court that he had good reason and ample justification for the steps he had taken. CASE FOR THE PROSECUTION. The court then proceeded with the case, with a plea of ''not guilty." The first witness called was Lieutenant ©. G. Thomas, who detailed what took place when Webb refused to take his Int. Ho said: "Private Webb, there is your kit; I order you to take it." Webb said, "I decline." Witness had pointed out to Webb the seriousness ot refusing to obey an officer, but accusoo still refused the kit. Webb had no questions to ask. In reply to the President, witness said he was sure Webb heard the order and knew it was meant for him. Sergeant C. G. Carey corroborated the evidence of Lieutenant Thomas, and added that when accused was warned as to the seriousness of his refusal to obey a personal command, he replied, "I nnderstand." 'V To the President: The order was givdn directly to accused. There were no other -persons near him, so that lie could not think the order.was given to anyone else. This closed the case for the prosecution. Accused said he did not deisire to give evidence himself or to call any witness. THE SHORTHAND WRITER AGAIN. At the point where the accused was asked if he had anything to say, the matter of the shorthand writer's presence again arose, and Webb again protested against the taking down of _ his address Dy anyone except a qualified man. Colonel Mac Donald offered to take the address down in longhand if accused would go slow enough. Webb ? however, pointed out that it was desirable to have someone at that work who bad had journalistic experience. Colonel Mac Donald pointed out to the accused that ho was not really entitled to an expert shorthand reporter, but the President had agreed to let him have one. It was military procedure to just take down here and there any of the leading facts stated, which, in the opinion of the court, had any bearing on tho case. A further adjournment was granted pending the arrival of a shorthand expert. the President pointing out that every effort was being made to procuro one, although the court oould not guarantee it. * When the court resumed in the afternoon, a private in the forces, who had a knowledge of shorthand, had been secured. Accused said that he would have preferred an experienced reporter, but ho would raise no further objections on this acoount. -*■ "WEBB'S ADDRESS TO THE COURT, Webb said that first he wished to express his thanks for the kind treatment accorded to him during hi* short 6tay + wa3 striking contrast treatment meted, out to him on occasion whfen ho was called b is appearance in a court to thank the Donald fl^ o +vf H - eral ' Colonel Machim and th„ a ? ssi3 tance rendered to S'aSriiu* a « V,ce S™ sls - The charge that upon the charJV VaS qU r e vf lwar sentence of death.

martial had power to inflict punishment only to the extent of two imprisonment, but if tho Court so desired, it could refer the case to a general courtmartial. Colonel Mac Donald pointed out that as the convening authority had referred the case to a district court-martial it could not be referred to a general courtmartial. Webb: In that case my life is safe. The President: Then we understand that he wishes to make it clear that he was prepared to lay down his life for his convictions. THE CONSCRIPTION LAW. Webb proceeded to say that he had been compelled by principle to refuso to obey orders. He had repeatedly protested against men _ in civil life, whether they were political, religious, or conscientious objectors, being tried by court-martial. He questioned ihe judicial capacity of military officers. If a man was to be tried he should not be brought before men whose political or military judgment was against the stand he took up. The law should reflect the collective judgment of tbe people, and he wished to question the law under which lie was charged. The conscription law had been passed about twelve months after tho last general election. The President said that these ' - emarks had no bearing on the case. Webb said ho hoped to make it clear why he had taken the step of refusing to obey orders. At the general olection practically every candidate had been opposed to conscription, out soon after Parliament met the two main parties joined together and violated their election pledges. Major Talbot said that the court was concerned only with the charge, and the accuscd was going far beyond the charg®. Webb said that he did not admit that he had committed any breach of the moral law of the country. Ths conscription law had been passed without the mandate of the peo,ple l and he had been denied the rignt to criticise the Government. He had asked the Government to consult the people by means ot a as in Australia, where the people had rejected conscription. The Judge-Advocate said he did not think the court wanted an argument about conscription. Webb said he had erred in company. He considered his attitude towards conscription had much to do with his appearance there that day. At the time of the Boer war tho present Prime Minister of Great Britain had been opposed to the war and to che Government. The President said that circumstances altered cases. This was <i world war. What other people ha J done in the. past had nothing to do with the case. Webb said that soldiers who had helped to elect him to Parliament in 1911 had left him to represent them and their dependants. They 'lad asked him to look after their interests. WEBB AND HIS CONSTITUENTS. Major Talbot; Surely you don't consider you are the only man in Parliament capable of seeing that maimed soldiers get justice? Webb: "I would not say anything so foolish. I am quite sure that if 1 dropped dead this minute the people of Grey could get better men to represent them out of the Labour movement." He said that he had stated his willingness to go to the front if his constituents said so, but no request of the kind had come. He had entered his protest agains-t the evil things done during the war. Major Tilbot: By whom? By the Germans P Webb: "By some people who are equally as bad as the Germans when they pile up war profits, while the people who pay these war profits arc being exploited." He said. that ho had not appealed against military service ; his constituency had appealed for him., The Military Service Board rejected his appeal. Then he resigned Lis seat. He realised - that his constituents ought to be represented in' Parliament by somo person. able to work for them. Many soldiers and relatives of soldiers had signed tho petitions asking for his exemption. Then he had beon asked to re-contest the seat. He had said that if defeated he would take that as evidence that the electors wanted him to go to the front, and he would have been prepared to join the Mining Corps or the Ambulance, but he had been re-elected unopposed. Then his constituents had asked for a re-hearing of the appeal, and the Military Service Board refused. Then a request .had been made on his behalf for an extension of leave to enable him to attend the forthcoming session of Parliament in order that he might state facte within his knowledge regarding the treatment of returned soldiers. The Board again refused. The Court ruled Private Webb out of order when he attempted to traverse the work of tho Military Service Board. Webb said that the appeal of his constituents had been turned down, but exemption had been granted to the manager of a financial institution on the ground that the man represented other people's interests. Parliament had not exempted its own members, but it had given power to Ministers to declare certain industries essential. PRESIDENT AND PRISONER IN ARGUMENT. Major Talbot said he did not think that members of Parliament could be regarded as essential. The men at the head of affairs did not need the assistance of every member of Parliament. Webb repeated that he would go to the front in the Mining Corp3 or the Ambulance if told to do so by his constituents. Major Talbot said that the peoplo of New Zealand had told him to go through the Government. Webb retorted that he had been elected to oppose the Government. He went on to say that tho Government was sending far too many men to the front. Now Zealand had 6ent more men in proportion to her population than Australia or Canada. Major Talbot: May I suggest that our Government sees farther than other Governments, and is prepared to save New Zealand for the people of New Zealand ? Webb: That is for the people themselves to say. Major Talbot: The Government speaks for a Parliament elected by the people. Webb: I was elected on a different issue. Prisoner became involved with tho president of the court in an argument regarding tho Yellow Peril and the employment of women in place of men now in the army. Webb said that conscription established the principlo -of autocracy and despotism. Major Taibot said that in civil life all three members of tho court were ordinary working-men, and were capable of understanding the points that had been brought forward with regard to Labour. They were also •returned soldiers, each having at least two ye 2ls ' service, and they were quite capable of understanding the feelings of returned soldiers. The court felt now that sufficient evidenco had been adduced to show the prisoner's state of mind with regard to the military crime of which he was accused. In some concluding remarks, Webb said ho questioned the soundness of military law, because of the lack of support for it throughout the oountry. He had no expectation of consideration, and would suffer the penalty of his disobedience. The wrongs done to liim and. others would be remembered on the day of nolitical judgment, when the peoolo dealt with the Government at tho pruls. CLOSE OF THE CASE Colonel Mac Donald summed task was a simple ons. Jaercv; -

counted the admitted facts of the oaeo —that the order had been given lawfully and properly by a superior officer and that it find been disobeyed. ' The court was then cleared. Judgment will bo promulgated later.