BILL BEFORE THE HOUSE.

Press, Volume XLIX, Issue 14840, 4 December 1913, Page 9

BILL BEFORE THE HOUSE.

if * READING DEBATE. A BY HOX. JAMES ALLEN. $1 (ntESS ASSOCIATION TZLZGBJJt.) %m WELLINGTON, JJecember 3. In tlo House of Representatives this 'I Afternoon, the Hon. James Allen (Jlin*M ,'c{rr of Defence) moved tho second I Siding of the Naval Defence Bill. The i proposal in the Bill, he said, was to iJter the method of disposal of tho * £100,000 voted annually, also to t Qjfce' other alterations in tho ! 7 atthod of the defence of the v ooantry Ho placed before members *• port.oos of the Admiralty memorandum 5 ile Conference on. Naval and MiiimL j)eience, heid in London in 1909. if? 'ha connexion with the proposal for a "J ongJo nay . v ' jt was mentson . ed tslat I there w ' ero °ther considerations beI r&a strategy which had to be count- , 1 The Biil proposed to eet np a Is'ew Zealand naval force; that was, proruioa of our own personnel. Hβ mentioned here that Mr iiassey had aljsjtiy stated that the Government Bugs* ask the House to vote a sufficie&t'sum for the building of a Bristol cruder. At the 1911 Imperial Coniaence, Mr had eaid that just ai centralisation had been found abt urd, so ttoiiid disintegration be found j to be impossible, "liach of Uβ is content to remain master of his own house, both at Home and in the Dominions"— that was the life blood of their policy. Whatever it was decided to do the Mother Country would assist m every way possible. - Tho present proposal* of the Government did not go in the direction of providing largo MT3I baaes. The total Government ex- * * pendituro would be a little over a quarter of a million a year, but tho training ship expenditure would not exceed a hundred thousand. They propa*a ti> cieate their own pev&ouuei ocuer their own administration, so that, >etf Zeaiand would be in touch with the jest or the British Navy and naval reaerre. They proposed to carry out ' the Admiralty's directions concerning the enlargement of tho dock at Auckland for tne accommodation of Imperial ships. Continuing, he said that in IiWJ it was recognised that a fighting fleet should be created in the Paci&c, tn'lh squadrons in the China, East Indian, and Australian seas. It was therefore an error to suppose that the only strategical poeition considered at tHrat time was a fighting fleet in the Jyorth Sea. Speaking of Canada's position in i elation to naval defence, ho said her undoubted duty was to make a handsome contribution to tho Imperial Navy, because she mv.it in her 1* present state depend for the defence of her Atlantic coasts upon a fleet in the North Sea. So far as her Pacifio shores were concerned, he hoped the day irouid come when she "would join with the Tmpenal authorities in making adequate provision for the safety of '' that coast. Australia had carried out her fall share of the agreement of 1809, and so far as New Zealand was roncM-ned. he claimed that the present - proposals were much the same as those nado at that time - by Sir Joseph Ward -irith Mr McKcnna. Those proposals wero sound strategically, but they had not been,carried out; and he r asked New Zealanders whether they were satisfied with things as they were now. If, instance, New Zealand wanted a coaling station between here and Panama she could not get it, if it Iwflt going fco-create complications with other countries. That, and also tho position of t'io JNew: Hebrides, was not tatjrfartory. It was therefore clear that tho scfienie'iWeed upon in 1909. Nad been abandoned by the.Admiralty. ■* \ first nctual step in the non-fulfil- * meat of lhat agreemeni—and he did - not object to it—was the diversion of - »*e bittleshipr Now Zealand to the L * Aorth Sea. f Hβ, however, had ioped * t a L , baJan £ e of tho aK reemer,t aißht still have been carried'out, but I apparently the Admiralty had not that intention, alleging that submarines and dflstroyere ivere -not snitnble to New Zealand waters. He did not egre« with that omnion,- but that, was why-that part of the 1909 agreement, was not to oe camod out. la oar echeme of dV fence vo were not protected by our, fhlt*3loae, bnfc by alliances with other coantnes, and he. ae a New Zealander,' conld ndt rest satisfied with an arrangement m which to: a ' great extent we were dependent upon other peoples. wJJL 15 •?**£?*. *°, Perfect, oar. land SJ? , * , \ he A*™***: ■ we™ satisfied vntt onr harbour batteries, but they wqttjred more modern six-inch guns. M large accommodation was 'uSW ,n N « w 'Zealand, nor was the J«3l defence flotilla necessary in New * v&i 8 k Au m tbe Admiralty point of " 2SJ- h f thore woe need for some proKmS,* Oa? These should W; ught cruisers, tie heavy fichtinK r > dn W not being Xt -V SluV*-? 11, "^ 8, Protection t , « If? Pacific \ He did not believe that iflat fact showed that the ship was St S?»W if' 1009 a^et Kγ* ,«•»»« »»t b<, Itoiled. »JTj Australia s was. Our offirsr^ SborT T ™ inin e raight take pWat Sβ cV r Dar t'=«»nth or in Australia. • So Sμ , coin ? a . ndin 2 the tminlng to the Minister tL^n!? O v ««e»««I- that the t£Z ™$ shoul5 houl . d :be eojiiyalent to that 25 SSm 18 in . Aest «B«- New. ZeaS fi ?a.v her own mea and the bSi v T I 1 , was that a «oral New Zealend Naval Reserve be set up consisting of men who had cone through our own ships, together with ine impenaj men now here Dealing with the Bill itself. Mr Allen drew attention to the provision for the transfer to the.British Government of tne naval forces in times of hostilities.

i'or ah essential purposes the men were under tlie control of tiie Home Uovernnieut. It was our business to work in with Australia as lar as possible, altiiough we were a separate entity. 'Tho pay would be the same Here as _n Australia, and the training would be the same. New Zealand men mignt be transferred to the China station or other stations ior training or service. New Zealand scould , recognise the necessity fbr control by the British Admiralty. They considered it necessary to preserve one control. He did not think that New Zealand, Australia, Africa, and Canada, should leave everything in future to the soie control of the Admiralty. They should take steps to formulate some controlling authority comprising representatives from the Dominions. The future of this country was in the hands cf future Parliaments. All the country was committed to was £100 000 up to September, 1913. New Zealand's imports wero twenty-threo millions and the exports were twentyfour millions, and it was .time our trade was effectively protected. He advocated the taking of more direct interest in the affairs of State by both young and old New Zealanders. SIR JOSEPH WARD'S SPEECH, Sir Joseph Ward said did Mr Allen suggest tnat one ship could protect our ocean routes, or was that one which had been proposed to be associated with others? if so, where were the others, and where were they to bo stationed? When llr Alien was in Australia, tho Australian Government believed that New Zealand was going to co-operate in the matter of a New Zealand fleet to be associated with Australia. Mr Allen: I have never gone away from No* Zealand control. Sir Joseph Ward said some of the proposals were of a most dangerous character. If the Minister of Defence resided in a country of twenty millions of pcop'e, he could understand him male:rig such proposals. New Zealand was a country of only seventy years of ago, of one million people, and with a revenue of eleven or twelve millions nnnunlly. If Mr Allen's proposals were as ho said, simply the paying of our own trr-ining-ship complement, why was it necessary to Rdopt practically the whole of the Australian Naval Act. The matter should be looked at from an Empire point of > view, Rand not merely from a Dominion point of view. Ho thought the Minister should have given the fullest confidence to the Honse. both with regard to the interviews he bad had with the Australian •*i?-v.-.l authorities and the Admiralty. He regretted that that had not been done. After interviews with the Australian authorities and the Admiralty, Mi* Allen had exprefsed himself as being in favour of local navies. Lord Tweedmouth and tbe First. Lord of the Admiralty had declared for one navy. - If Mr Allen allowed the inference to go forth that the Admiralty bad pressed a separate navy on him, then the First Lord of the Admiralty must bo accused of having two policies on the matter. He asked who was responsible for the complete reversal of the agreement signed by him arid by the Admiralty. Ho knew there was never a suspicion of anything being done by the Admiralty, without the acquiescence of the other party, after an agreement bad br-en arrived at; The Dreadnor-ght was given to the Admiralty as a gift unconditionally. They had no right to. follow them up and say what should be done with the ship, and because it was hot done, say that the agreement was broken? Mr "Allen must. know .that changes wore necessary everywhere in conformity with changes of other eonritries. - Mr Allen riiust have Bad some written or "oral understanding .'with tbo Admiralty. Tbe whole nixreerhent entered into coutd not .disappear and a much worse "arrangement be enter"**-?! ?"n*c> without something .beitto: in writing nbout "the matter. What he •'Sir .Io«-nh WardY bad done for New Zealand while at Home had been endorsed by the highest -men - in-the Admiralty. : and'bwas : diametrically opTtosed to tbo policy of AUPtrnlia?thouffh ho aareod thai Hhwy .both' bad dest-i-nies-to work -out;?'' Prior tb Mr- Allen - tnkinfr officej this country was piving £100 000 nnmiallv as a"contribution-' to the Navvy and had present ed a Dreadnonebt.. Ho had heard Mr Allen say in London that there was no calculating what the moral effect • Of that gift would be, buf they should hot keep hai-ping on the gift all through the; piece. Did Mr?Allen expect*him to,believe that they were to work as a separate entify and yet pay the same rates as Australia and adopt the same regulations as /Australia. Admiral Henderson had computed that the -Australian Navy's personnel would cost £2.220 .OOORyearly,- and • personnel and, maintenance' £3,452.600, one .million annually for interest.? A ship such as they proposed getting would cost' £204,000 a year; ? ' '.' / .- Mr Massey: Oh, no. : "T Sir Joseph Ward contended that the Mitiister ■ did" not know the cost of the maintenance of a : Bristol costing £400,000.* It would cost £150,000. Mr Allen? Oh, no. ? '•.? Sir Joseph Ward: Well, bow - many men .are you going to put onthor?: Wh-ft aro You training your men for ? Mr Allen: The; British Navy.. . Sir Joseph Ward: A Bristol could do that. •?' : ?.V '?"'";'.' ■'■ ??'. .:? Mr Allen: They are hot suitable.